Sullenberger: Cuts driving out best pilots

[skyhighbird]

From the latest interview:

"My pay has been cut 40 percent. My pension like most airlines' pensions has been terminated and replaced by a PBGC guarantee worth only pennies on the dollar"

"taken a second job as a consultant to make ends meet. "

"Sully's co-pilot says if experienced pilots leave, it could mean negative consequences for the public."

Now I'm probably being monumentally naive here, but removing the difficulties in getting that first job, and the low salary for low hour cadets on easyjet/ryanair - Are things really THAT bad? Is the salary so bad that there is an equal salary out there in a completely different job but still somethign you enjoy?

I thought we became pilots for the dream - not for the money. And whilst money is obviously important, is it that bad that you would leave the job to go to the dreaded office? Or some other employment?

I must admit I'm a little confused by this all.

WWW comments please :ok:

[Lew747]

Something that made me feel quite bad was the fact he said he does not know one single pilot within the airline who would recommend the profession to their children :sad:

[BelArgUSA]

Love of airplanes, aviation and flying...? I fully understand.
You love soccer and want to be the next Maradona...? I fully understand.
Love Ferrari race cars, and want to be F1 world champion...? I fully understand.
If you love airplanes, become dentist or lawyer. Buy a Bonanza, or Tiger Moth.
Fly saturday at the aero-club, then have a beer with the other pilots.
xxx
I became airline pilot because I was not good enough to be concert pianist.
And because airline salaries and benefits were great (then).
Did get a Bösendorfer concert grand piano... to massacre Chopin and Liszt...
And could travel for free, layovers with palm trees, beaches.
Shopping in Hong Kong, weekend in Rio, Las Vegas for a show.
But that was before the "October War 1973" and "Deregulation 1979".
And TSA did not treat me as a potential terrorist at airports.
xxx
All that is well over now. Ryanair pilots, you make me laugh.
Pilot, with BA maybe... if they select you and train you.
If not, it is the largest education/training investment with lowest career return.
With such ideas, how could I trust you to be mentally stable...?
Nowadays, all is FMC. You do not impress me. Can you hand fly a 100' DH ILS... I can.
My advice. Stay away from the flight deck. Glad I retired.
xxx
:*
Happy contrails, if you still figure a way to be happy.

[captain_rossco]

I'd like to think anyone in a job can fly a 100' ILS, if not how the F*** did you get through training.

Regards
CR

[MVE]

BelArgUSA, you make some salient points but rather than laugh at the prostitutes that fly for Ryanair, I practicly cry myself to sleep for the loss they 'contribute' to our profession. When they give in to the likes of Oleary and pay for TR's and pay for parking/uniform/healthcare/become illegally self employed, they destroy the industry for the rest of us. The truly sad thing is they will never realise the dream, just a carbon copy of it in Olearys image.:yuk:
Don't laugh at them, pity them.

Skyhighbird, the stark reality (and I speak as a recent father) is that I would not recommend becoming a pilot as a career to my son unless it was with the military or BA/Virgin/other legacy carrier. The image that the Virgin ad portays is slipping further and further away from reality.

[potkettleblack]

All these young guys with their starry eyed ideas, you got to love them. When you can't remember last having a weekend off, get rosters from hell, continually miss important family events, xmas - whats that? I can tell you that it ain't that glamorous. If it wasn't for the pay cheque then I would be out of here. I am here for the money and not the view outside. Its the money that puts food on the table, the view is just a nice bonus. And I can tell you that due to the likes of our colleagues at FR and their ilk continually racing to the bottom and being unwilling to stand up for themselves then my pay cheque is under constant pressure.

[skyhighbird]

Potkettleblack,

your name really does fit doesn't it?

Us "starry eyed" wanabees are berated when we come back after 2 years crying about lack of jobs and given the usual "you should have known what you were getting into" BS from the senior ppruners.

Yet when we ask these questions, we still get slated.

Everything you said - I know about it. Many guys like you have already given us the doom and gloom - no money, no life, no weekends etc. But surely that has always been the same for newbies. Then again, you still need a Captain to fly the night flight on Christmas day. So even then seniority doesn't really help.

So anyone with half a brain cell should know that being a pilot certainly is not as it looks in the Virgin Advert.

Therefore, I was surprised that Sullenberg came out saying what he did. I'm about to leave a job in the City (please don't blame me :(where at the age of 23, I'm being paid more than I would probably earn as a Captain. Yet I'm ready (well still thinking - almost about to sign my paper) for all those things you mentioned Pot.

[philc1983]

What does everyone have against Ryanair pilots, i mean seriously? Because they are so committed to getting an airline job and they pay for a TR, must that constitute them being so inferior as pilots and men/women?? I don't think so. And do they really ruin the entire aviation industry as a result of their actions? Again, I don't think so. The drama that some people conjure is unbelieveable at times, you could write movie scripts about the things people on here are saying.

I have a massive amount of respect for senior pilots and the 'old hands' of the flying community, but people must realise that the aviation industry has changed and so too has the world in which we live (not trying to be condescending here).

The aircraft are much more computer orientated and therefore require different skills not necessarily needing pilots to be 'aces' but to be more like managers and systems operators/monitors. That is the truth and is why airlines are increasingly less likely to want to pay for all your light aircraft flying and type rating. Most business companies won't sponsor students through University for a degree so why as pilots do we feel this should be any different?

Don't get me wrong I was lured into aviation by a love of flying and the 'glamour' of the lifestyle travelling and being thought of as a hero by joe public, and would truly love someone to pay for my own type rating. I know this isn't going to happen in the near, or even distant future :{, so I do as everyone else should... just get on with things.

Ryanair pilots, and I know many, who despite paying for their TR absolutely love the job and the flying they do. They get a much greater exposure to 'hands on' flying than most airline pilots and as such find the work wholly satisfying and not one bit dull. In the future instead of people feeling pity for them we should show them envy, or failing that ask THEM how they feel about working for Ryanair before you make a judgement on their life and career.

Phil.

PS - I don't work for Ryanair.

[Doodlebug]

There's a whole lot more out there than low-cost airlines. Don't be put off.

[potkettleblack]

Phil I couldn't care a toss if the FR pilots are the best aviators in the world. In fact I am sure that they are a very skilled set of pilots by and large. Its irrelevant really in anycase.

However, what does my head in is that they will not stand up for themselves and are willing to be continually divided and conquered by management. Since you have "friends" in the airline then you can go and find your own examples such as rostering unpaid leave whilst they are still hiring and giving experienced pilots less block hours whilst flying cheaper lower houred pilots on lower Brookfield rates etc etc. The list is endless of the dirty tricks they will employ.

The net result for you me and everyone else is a race to the bottom in industry wide terms and conditions.

[skyhighbird]

Ryanair unfortunately are doing something right. And perhaps this is the business model of the future - even for long haul legacy flights.

At the moment, if you are flying from lets say UK to France, then you are prepared to give up any sense of comfort for a 1 hr flight. You don't need food, you don't need toilets. In this modern age you don't need check-in staff - just check in-online. These cost-cutting measures ensure you have a cheapER flight compared to more legacy carriers. So becasue you have made cost cutting measures at the lower end, then O'leary has no reason to make cost cutting measures in the cockpit. - O'leary can come on pprune anytime he wants, see the sob stories, see the lack of jobs out there - so why would HE pay pilots to fly. If he did, then his business model would foul up.

Now the scary thing is that this business model could be adopted by long haul carriers. O'leary could lease himself a a fleet of 747's sitting around doing nothing in the Nevada Desert. Start a schedule from Uk-Australia -40 hour flight stopping over at 10 locations - £45 quid a pop. Could the likes of BA, Virgin compete with this with flights priced at £700? Whilst BA/Virgin would still retain certain passengers, they would still lose a significant market share.

Perhaps flying has lost it's glamour? A few weeks ago, I was sitting on a plane flying out to NY on Virgin Atlantic. The Captain came on the PA and no one in my area could be bothered to listen and kept talking with their companions.

I felt genuinely p!ssed off that no one respected what this guy was saying. The guy who will hopefully get them from A to B safely and who may be called upon to make life or death decisions. I wanted to get up and shout at everyone to shut the **** up and show some respect. Probably I was annoyed that in a few years time, no one would be listening to what I had to say when I come on the PA.

Maybe the glamour has gone? - and Ryanair are simply expediting this fall. I certainly have no ill -will towards Ryanair pilots or anone else who had to pay for a TR. I respect the fact that you did everything to get the job - but like others, I pity you aswell.

[skyhighbird]

Hi scratching the sky,

thanks for reading my posts with interest!

It was pure luck that I am where I am - but I never had a passion for it. The salary was always good but the bonuses were amazing and more than made up for the 16 hour days. Now the bonus is not as big but good enough.

I have no passion for what I'm doing. I finished A-levels and wanted to be a pilot but had no money. I got myself a job in the city and within months, was working in departments where big money was made - of which I got a share. Soon, I was addicted to the money and couldn't draw myself away from it. House (with no mortgage) by 20 and a half, merc, swimming pool and room for a pony zzzz blah blah.

Now, I have no passion to work 16 hour days. I have what most people spend a lifetime working for which is why I want to rekindle my love affair with flying. I will be taking a modular route. I like doing things in my own time and have no inclination whatsoever in going integrated. I'm actually thinking of doing about 500 hours hour building by flying in every single continent - having fun and enjoying real flying. Main ambition is to build hours island hopping in the carribean.

I guess the point of my post was that people are already giving up so much to fulfil their dream. So surely if you are working all the hours flying for just £24k on a low cost airline and not having any weekends off, would you really leave the flight deck and become an estate agent (for example) earning a comparitive salary?

And if you were a Captain on lets say £60k and you thought you should be on much more, it's not like you can leave the airline and walk straight into a management job on the same salary? You'll be on less.

So I was wondering whether what he said was actually true.

[INNflight]

Nice to see some normal reasoning going on here.

I used to do some freelance writing for an aviation magazine (kinda slipped into that as I did photography for them) and thought about writing an article about whether the passion of flight is dead or not.

Didn't manage to kick it off yet though.

Fact is... as skyhigh said, there's TONS of jobs out there that pay you multiple times as much, that don't have you work on Christmas or every weekend. Jobs that put the money up your a** if you're doing reasonably ok.

Why is it that most flight schools are still full? It's not just Europe, also in the US or in Australia.... they never cease to have students. Are we all freaking stupid idiots??? I would think not. (Some certainly are) :E

In the end (of your career / life / stage - whatever) I think most of us want to look back and know they did something they enjoyed, and they thought was worth working for. Sounds cheesy I guess heh.

Even reading the angry post of BelARG a few replies up, I hope that in the bigger sense of things he doesn't feel like that at all, and I think it reflects in the helpful way he posts on other threads.

I didn't fly for about 1,5 weeks now and I miss it already. I'd rather fly and drive a Volkswagen than work in a bank and drive a Porsche. :ouch:

[philc1983]

Skyhighbird,

If you are going to Island hop around the Caribbean give me a shout, "I'll be your wingman anytime." :ok: