Modular vs Integrated in Current Climate

[Ridgerunner]

Hi guys,

Sorry to bring up a topic that has been covered well in the past, but I was wondering if anyone in the industry at present has any idea if modular is becoming anymore viable as opposed to integrated at the present financial climate? I am on the verge of applying for an integrated course, but could save a lot of money doing it modular as I already have 200 hours and would not be far of doing my commercial license? Also, what schools are recommended for modular training and has anyone had any real positive experiences going modular e.g. similar position to me for experience, the time they took, the costing, the school they went to and their job now? Just considering all my options at the moment as it it a pretty horrific time to try to become a pilot.

Cheers,

RR

[EGCC4284]

Why waste more money if you have 200 hours.

Do your ATPL's with Bristol Ground School which will keep you busy for the next 2 years and cost you nearly £4,000 after exams and B&B's etc and then borrow £30,000 to get your CPL/IR/MCC finished, sorted. I said £30,000 so as to have a little spare for retest etc etc should you need it.

Job market will be poor for the next 2-3 years., so why rush.

Its all about timing, if you finish your training on the upturn, you will have a better chance than someone who has been lucking for a job for 3 years, unless they have been instructing and have 1000 hours

Welcome to Bristol.gs (http://www.bristol.gs/)

[Mach086]

If you have 200hrs, surely modular is the only way to go - unless you are happy with throwing away the time/money spent on getting those hours by starting at the begining and going integrated.

Or are you aiming for BA? Otherwise, modular is king in these times!

The debate continues....

[I like planes & stuf]

My guess would be neither at the moment - unless you simply want a cheap plastic ornament (by way of fATPL) instead of a job.

[Mach086]

Just like those who started in early 2000, peple who started training in 2006 probably thought they were guaranteed a job by mid-late 2008. I feel for them now.

Point is no one knows what will happen.

I begin my part time PPL in the next few weeks - and leaving full time work ready for London Met in September. Full time mod all the way hoping to finsih end of 2010 ready for 2011 job hunting.

Should I wait the 2 years like everyone has been throwing around? Wait to start training in 2011 ready for employment in 2013 because it "might" be better?

NO

No one knows anything. It could be good, could be bad.

There is NO right or wrong time to begin your dream.

[felixflyer]

Ridgerunner,

What are you flying at the moment? Im guessing its SEP. Why not get the ATPL's done and go for your SE/IR. That way you can actually do some affordable IFR flying round Europe and become a good IFR pilot. (If you can afford to fly ME then go straight for the ME/IR).

The CPL/ME can wait until there is a hope of getting a job. All it will take is a ME conversion to get the ME/IR and with the IFR experience you will have it wont be difficult.

[EvelcyclopS]

"there is NO right or wrong time to begin training"

Pascals Wager anyone?

[Ridgerunner]

I've done 100 hours civil and 100 hours military SEP and I'm considering integrated Oxford, but the whole basic flying course in Arizona will cover all I've already done and so it seems like 5 months I could do without that is all I've been thinking but I know modular has been unpopular amongst airlines for low hours pilots for the last few years and wouldn't want to go in with a disadvantage for the sake of 200 hours. . . interesting to hear your points of view!

[Artie Fufkin]

Just like those who started in early 2000, peple who started training in 2006 probably thought they were guaranteed a job by mid-late 2008. I feel for them now.It is well known that the aviation job market is cyclical and has a period of a good few years followed by a bad few years. Recruitment open and going well for a few years (like in 2006) a great time to start training? :suspect:

It'll be the same in 2011 when it'll be a great time to start training. There will have been 3 years of virtually no fATPL recruitment and anyone considering training will be told they're an idiot, right up until the time they finish their IR at the begining of an upturn. Then they'll be labeled lucky.

Timing is everything.

[Mach086]

Timining is Everything

You are correct when put against 2 criteria:

1. You have a crystal Ball

2. You finish training, either get a job/don't get a job and THEN say, "Timing is Everything".

2011 seems to be an arbitary date that someone seems to have picked out of thin air as an ideal time to start training ready for summer 2012.

Ok, but let's say Heaven Forbid some wan#er decides to land an A380 in the Olympic Stadium just as I'm finishing my MCC in July 2012. Cheers.

So in that case YES - there is a right and wrong time to start training. But you will only know this in Hindsight: Please see criteria 1 & 2 above.

I have no reason to wait to start my training.

[ewsd02]

Go modular because:
1. You can adjust timings as you go to help roll out on the correct heading.
2. It cheaper, and if you pick the correct schools, just as good if not better than integrated.
3. Integrated is not designed for guys like you with a few hrs, rather for guys who wake up one day and decide to be a pilot so train from scratch.
4. CTC aside, integrated does not put you in a better position for a job. What matters is that you trained in the UK, the time it took, first time passes in the flight tests and eventually quality and amount of flying hrs. Airlines also look at what else you have done with your life!

As for where to do it, Bristol for the groundschool, and Bristol again for the CPL/IR. BCFT & Stapleford also good. To be honest, the British Schools are tightly regulated so all generally good.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I can guarantee that the pilot market will still be shockingly bad 18 months from now when your Integrated course is complete and you are pointlessly sending out CVs by the arm load.

In a trite way it is correct to say that nobody knows what the future situation will be like.

However. A wise man would turn to history as a guide. He would note that the 1990 recession led to several large airline going bust by 1993 and that it was not until 1996 that pilot hiring recovered to more normal levels for Wannabes.

Right now we are in 1991. History doesn't repeat but it does rhyme.



WWW

ps I think the highest quality training is to be found in some of the smaller schools than in the sausage machines anyway.. (and I've worked in both)

[Artie Fufkin]

Mach082, I do appreciate what you're thinking about crystal balls, hindsight and aviation terrorism.

2011 is not "plucked out of the air". That means finishing in 2012. The London Olympics is bound to cause an increase in air travel into the UK. My proverbial crystal ball suggests a major event like that, together with its releative timing in the aviation cycle means it is as likely a time as any to be the time when things start to turn round.

I agree you can never predict a major terrorist event but, as has always been said, flight training is always going to be a risk, however and whenever you start. All you can do is do plan as sensibly as you can. Like not starting now.

[Deano777]

But something else to consider is that when there is an "upturn", it's going to take a year or so for the industry to "vacuum up" all the experienced pilots out of a job, so even more misery for the wannabe when the good times arrive.

[david.craig]

Its debatable which route produces the better skilled pilot. However, the way i see it is that we have a a very competitive industry to get into than ever before. Surely, to stand any chance of securing a 'first' job at the moment, you must be top of the game. It appears integrated is the route of choice, and which so many integrated graduates out there job hunting, surely those doing the modular route stand little chance?
At the moment at least

[sherig]

Right now, go the modular route... Finish everything as fast as you can. Start instructing and then see how you stand up against the integrated competition who may have graduated 18 months prior to an interview when you're current with 1000 hours total time...

Instructing can also help to improve your flying, keep you in touch with the industry and most of all can be a great way to earn a living albeit a frugal one!

... And the cash you save can go towards a type rating if needs be.

[Mach086]

It appears integrated is the route of choice

From what I have read from the more experienced and senior members of pprune is that the integrated course is the route of choice for either those who

1. Fall for the marketing spiel

and/or

2. Those who think that BA is the only company in the world that has aircraft.

At least this is what "appears" from reading Pprune - my only source. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In terms of timing and using the 2012 olymipcs as a key "turning point" ,I actually think this is wrong (my humble opinion) and wholly optimistic. I work in the business and commercial arena. Using the themes and concepts of this I find it difficult to see how 2 weeks in the summer of 2012 will be the "Turning Point" the avation industry expects - at least in the bigger picture.

For the Olympics, sure, BMI, BA, Virgin, Easy Jet, Ryanair etc could increase their flights in and around the UK 1000 fold. Brilliant. And after those 2 weeks?

Like I said, I work in the business and commercial area and our key projects (infrastructure and finance) are in preparation for the Olympics. 2006 was a booming time for recruiting Civil Engineer graduates and economics grads. And the employment is still ongoing - all in preparation for the Olympics, Infrastructure, London Underground, Cross Rail etc.

But it is very apparent that no significant amount of long terms jobs will be created by the Olympics - in any area. Those months surrounding summer 2012 will be made up of contractors - i.e typical seasonal employment and I'm sure the aviation world will be no different - it will be no more different that the charter airlines who temporarily hire extra pilots to meet peak demands over summer.

In the wider scheme of things, the Olympics 2012 makes no significant difference as to whether I would get a job if I started in 2011 as opposed to now. It would be just as tough - Olympics is by far no gurantee.

Therefore, if anyone is thinking about starting flight training this is as WORSE time as any, or Best time as any to start - depends whether your glass is half full or half empty.

Just my 2 cents worth. :ok:

Hopefull my post in 2011 won't be:
So where are all the jobs then? I'm f***ed if I know.... :}

[mad_jock]

Nicely put Mach.

The olympics are going to be a pain in the arse for all concerned. And it will have very little benefit for low hour pilots.

And modualar always have a chance. I can remember looking at my ATPL notes while watching the second 767 crashing into the towers with a flight booked on the 21st over to FL to hour build.

6 months later I started as an FI and 18months after that I started my type rating course with 12 first type rating first officers all of them modular trained, 50% of them were 1000 hour instructors. That year the company took on over 40 first officers and 3 of them were intergrated and all of them were ex instructors.

Which is the back ground that I use to state that Intergrated gives you no global step up in the job hunting game.

I believe that being a special constable, TA soldier, Air Cadet instructor ground or Air etc has far more influence on getting that first job than which school you went to.

[ewsd02]

I agree with you Mad_Jock. Airlines look for flying hrs first, if you don't have any they look at first time passes, and what else you've done with your life, just like any employer. Any airline will give you a sim check during selection, and they will learn from experience which MCC courses generally produce people who do well in their sim check. So, if you are talking about the training, the MCC is probably the bit to think most carefully about in terms of jobs. Integrated courses make more money for the flying school, if you pick the correct modular schools you will be at least as well trained with the same bleak prospects at the moment!

Instructing is a good way to go, but I'll echo many threads throughout this site and say that FI jobs are pretty scarce now as everyone has had the same idea, so research any moves you make carefully.

[mad_jock]

I wouldn't agree with the MCC they only care if you have one or not.

After you have been around a bit the criteria for what individual airlines look for is inconsistant and very differing. By modelling yourself to a particular recruitment standard you will fail multiple other ones.

Which is another failing of CV bursts from low hours pilots. They use the same crap CV and cover letter for every airline. An individual approach works wonders.

[captain_rossco]

Modular with those hours! I Just finished OAA Modular and landed a job within 6 weeks, as did several of my integrated coursemates. Difference being I could probably get myself an Aston before our debt levels are comparable!


Regards
CR

P.S just realised the Aston plan's gone out the window, TR to pay for!

[Anonymus6]

Modular with those hours! I Just finished OAA Modular and landed a job within 6 weeks, as did several of my integrated coursemates. Difference being I could probably get myself an Aston before our debt levels are comparable!


I guess there are jobs out there,, I have more than 2000 hours total time have been sending CV's like crazy,,,,Not even a reply so far!!!:{

It seems there are more jobs for low timers then experienced pilots.

good luck to all!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Who with?

Who has hired you and several of your Oxford chums? Was it Ryanair and a 28,000 Euro type rating? Did you get that job or did you buy it?



WWW

[captain_rossco]

They're Irish, They're Cheap, and they'll cost me a small fortune!

Regards

CR

P.S I don't mean Dublin Prostitutes.
:ok:

[Anonymus6]

WWW

I have a question. how was the 90s recession compared to this one we are facing today(airline point of view)? I was only 8-9 years old during that time, so it is hard to remember, but my father was telling me it was hard times as well, but he says this one is much deeper!!! But I do remember 2002 when many airlines laid off pilots like crazy and that was the time I started my flight training.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmm, an Int course plus £30k worth of type rating is a hefty price tag for a first job.


This recession is already much deeper and quicker than the early 90's one.

Then Dan Air and Air Europe went bust and they were big back then. Thomson and easyJet would be the modern day equivalents.


The 1990's house price crash saw the worst 12 months period suffering a 12% fall in average house prices. We are are 18% currently and accelerating. As a proxy for the size of the recession the implications are obvious. Also 18 years ago Japan was going great guns and America was booming post Reaganomics. China was still shut and Europe was expanding Eastwards following the fall of the wall.

This time everything is cocked up at the same time everywhere. It will be worse. Much much worse.

WWW

[mad_jock]

Hmm, an Int course plus £30k worth of type rating is a hefty price tag for a first job.


And don't forget, out on your ear or virtually zero pay when the next batch of FO's come through. There must be 2-3000 737 experenced pilots on the market just now. Turboprop companys are getting an avalanch of seriously experienced jet pilots which they won't touch because they know they will be away as soon as something else turns up. There are FO's out there with 6000+ hours on 737 and other equiv types applying to be DEC which have sorted alot of problems for some operators but has now stuffed up the progression of the TP FO's

[ewsd02]

Agreed, but they do care how you perform when they drop you in a big jet sim, and 55hrs in a Seneca doesn't prepare you to much for that!

My view, slightly tongue & cheek: If you can afford an integrated course followed by a type rating, you should have kept doing what you were doing before.