"Hero" pilot's pay cut, pension stopped [Archive]

fernytickles

24th Feb 2009, 16:22

He & Jeff Skiles are due to come to AirVenture this year. It will be great to have a chance to thank them both for everything they are doing to wake the government and public up to the detrimental change to the average pilot's working life.

BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Hudson pilot urges safety funding (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7908508.stm)

The pilot of a plane that ditched into the Hudson River in New York has called on US airlines to invest more in recruiting and training pilots.

Capt Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told Congress his pay had been cut by 40% in recent years, and the industry might not attract the "best and brightest".

"The single most important piece of safety equipment is an experienced, well-trained pilot," he said.

He was hailed as a hero after January's landing, which all on board survived.

At the hearing, an air traffic controller recalled the captain telling him he would land in the river, and thinking this was a "death sentence".

Controller Patrick Harten said it felt like hours before he heard of the plane's "heroic landing".

Earlier, Capt Sullenberger told the House committee he and other pilots had seen their wages cut, and that this was deterring potential recruits.

He said it was necessary for companies to refocus on the recruitment and training of pilots, and that this should be "at least as important as their bottom lines".

"We've been hit by an economic tsunami: September 11th, bankruptcies, fluctuating fuel prices, mergers, loss of pensions and revolving door management teams," he said.

Capt Sullenberger said his decision to stay in the airline industry had come at "a great financial cost to me and my family", with his pay cut and pension downgraded.

"It is an incredible testament to the collective character, professionalism and dedication of my colleagues in the industry that they are still able to function at such a high level."

Sullenberger: Pay cuts driving out best pilots - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090224/ap_on_go_co/plane_splashdown_hearing)

WASHINGTON – The pilot who safely ditched a jetliner in New York's Hudson River said Tuesday that pay and benefit cuts are driving experienced pilots from careers in the cockpit.

US Airways pilot Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger told the House aviation subcommittee that his pay has been cut 40 percent in recent years and his pension has been terminated and replaced with a promise "worth pennies on the dollar" from the federally created Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. These cuts followed a wave of airline bankruptcies after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks compounded by the current recession, he said.

"The bankruptcies were used to by some as a fishing expedition to get what they could not get in normal times," Sullenberger said of the airlines. He said the problems began with the deregulation of the industry in the 1970s.

The reduced compensation has placed "pilots and their families in an untenable financial situation," Sullenberger said. "I do not know a single, professional airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps."

The subcommittee of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee heard from the crew of Flight 1549, the air traffic controller who handled the flight and aviation experts to examine what safety lessons could be learned from the Jan. 15 accident which all 155 people aboard survived.

Sullenberger's copilot Jeffrey B. Skiles said unless federal laws are revised to improve labor-management relations "experienced crews in the cockpit will be a thing of the past." And Sullenberger added that without experienced pilots "we will see negative consequences to the flying public."

Sullenberger himself has started a consulting business to help make ends meet. Skiles added, "For the last six years, I have worked seven days a week between my two jobs just to maintain a middle class standard of living."

James T. Kirk

24th Feb 2009, 16:28

It's not the answer to the larger problem of course but Sully has a good offer from Richard Branson.

shortfinals

24th Feb 2009, 16:34

You can hear the testimony of various groups involved in the Hudson ditching at Transportation and Infrastructure Committee (http://transportation.house.gov)

It's live now, but it'll be retrievable later.

Sully, ALPA and other pilots - and cabin crew - have really used the opportunity skillfully to point out, in their testimony to Congress, how piloting as a profession is being less and less well rewarded, and for no good reason, and that if this continues, pilots and cabin crew in the future are unlikely to match the quality we saw in action on the Hudson. Who, of any quality (educational, aspirational etc), will want to do it?

goeasy

24th Feb 2009, 16:41

Such a brilliant speech! Apart from his exemplary handling of the incident itself, if he keeps this up, we will all owe him a huge debt of gratitude. It is well overdue that these issues are brought before the media.

It is all soooo true. And so sad that the travelling public dont realise that their 'cheap' fares come at the expense of safety. The safety that comes from highly skilled, well paid proffessionals. Not rich kids or mercenaries.

armchairpilot94116

24th Feb 2009, 16:44

Hero Pilot Says Cuts Driving Away Experienced Pilots; Hearing Describes Plane Crash In Hudson - cbs5.com (http://cbs5.com/local/pilot.sullenberger.hearing.2.942641.html)

punkalouver

24th Feb 2009, 17:08

I seem to remember perhaps last year or the year before, something about AA pilots taking early retirement and that it may have had something to do with locking in their pension value or something like that. Did that turn out for those that retired early to be a smart financial move based on what has happened to the stock market?

Thanks.

galaxy flyer

24th Feb 2009, 17:19

While I decry where our beloved profession has gone, it was at my beginning 40 years ago, I was given this by a UAL DC-8 F/O:

It would be a great job if:

I made as much money as my in-laws think

Got as much poontang as my wife thinks

Had as much time off as my neighbor thinks

T&C may change, but human nature is immutable

David Horn

24th Feb 2009, 17:25

Do air passengers in the UK know they could be on a plane with a pilot who is paying to be there for hour building? For some pilots who haven't been taken on by the airlines they can pay for their own type ratings and pay to fly to get some hours.

How do you propose we fix this? Realistically, the only jobs out there are the moment are for those able to fund their own type ratings. Short of the government paying, this problem can only be solved from within.

Too often I read this website to find yet more moaning about new low hour pilots self-funding their type ratings. Do you think that they do this for fun? Because Daddy has handed them a blank cheque? You may be concerned about your own job (and rightly so) but as senior pilots within the airline you are best positioned to halt this trend.

Reimers

24th Feb 2009, 18:22

How do you propose we fix this? Realistically, the only jobs out there are the moment are for those able to fund their own type ratings. Short of the government paying, this problem can only be solved from within.

No, it cannot be solved from within. The past has shown that after every downturn, the entry fee (paying the training, then also paying the rating, and thereafter also paying the line training on top of it all) has risen and remains there. The market is too competetive at this level, unions seem to have been unable to stop it.
Airlines' sole purpose is to earn money. One thing that would end "paying for line training" was if passengers were to quit flying airlines that engage in this kind of scheme. Making them aware of this problem is a necessary first step.

MungoP

24th Feb 2009, 18:29

This subject has been done to death ad nauseum both here and elsewhere...

It will always come back to the same thing... pax want safety above all other considerations... with the exception that is of paying for it.

lomapaseo

24th Feb 2009, 18:33

No, it cannot be solved from within. The past has shown that after every downturn, the entry fee (paying the training, then also paying the rating, and thereafter also paying the line training on top of it all) has risen and remains there. The market is too competetive at this level, unions seem to have been unable to stop it.
Airlines' sole purpose is to earn money. One thing that would end "paying for line training" was if passengers were to quit flying airlines that engage in this kind of scheme. Making them aware of this problem is a necessary first step.

Hey I got an idea why don't you start another thread along the idea of

Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' pay to learn

I'm sure the passengers will understand:bored:

FrequentSLF

24th Feb 2009, 18:35

It will always come back to the same thing... pax want safety above all other considerations... with the exception that is of paying for it.

Do you mean that you can assure me 100% safe flight if I pay the right amount?

Pugilistic Animus

24th Feb 2009, 19:21

'Do you mean that you can assure me 100% safe flight if I pay the right amount? '

Yes, FSLF if you pay enough you wont crash because then the pilot has enough cash to pay off the birds---that's what they mean:rolleyes:

Jim Henson you really created a classic I say--- a classic

boeingbus2002

24th Feb 2009, 19:26

Operators and TRTOs will all say that safety is never compromised even with a pay as you fly pilot.
At the end of the day, if FO Bloggs has £30k spare, he can opt to obtain a type rating of his choice. At the end, he still needs to pass the required skills test and obtain satsifactory reports from the TRI. No amount of money (not yet at least!!) will make an unsafe pilot pass these hoops.
So on Day 1 of his line training, we have FO Bloggs who has self sponsored his TR and FO Speakin who has received his TR from a bonded airline scheme.
Both have the same hoops to pass once again and positive progress must be made each flight. Passengers on their flights will not know who is actually flying as equal standards will have been instilled at the training stage.

Although I may agree that the Self sponsored TR route is causing T&Cs to fall, the media will not have any leg to stand on. (Unless of course the financial burden is shown to affect performance).

We should not sideline these pilots who follow these routes. Potentially this may increase conflict within the flightdeck environment between pilots.

Halfbaked_Boy

24th Feb 2009, 19:32

No, it cannot be solved from within. The past has shown that after every downturn, the entry fee (paying the training, then also paying the rating, and thereafter also paying the line training on top of it all) has risen and remains there. The market is too competetive at this level, unions seem to have been unable to stop it.
Airlines' sole purpose is to earn money. One thing that would end "paying for line training" was if passengers were to quit flying airlines that engage in this kind of scheme. Making them aware of this problem is a necessary first step.

Hmmm, and how many experienced and 'non-deserving' pilots (that is if the SSTR pilot community are indeed 'deserving') would be unfairly put out of work in that scenario?

Failed plan, let's hear the next one... :rolleyes:

Madbob

24th Feb 2009, 19:49

How does it go? "If the airlines pay you peanuts, then expect monkeys to do the job!"

Only one problem, when I'm SLF I don't want a monkey up there in the cockpit :( and when I'm on the flight deck I don't want SLF calling me a monkey either!:=

MB

unb5

24th Feb 2009, 20:25

Since I have started this career 22 yrs ago , I have always been amazed at the way we pilots organized ourselves. We have great CRM skills but lousy negotiating skills. When it comes to pulling the crew together and getting the job done we are all one for all and all for one , but when it comes down to the pocket book we are just one for oneself. I have been out of work now for the first time in all those years and its down right frustrating to hear of people paying cash for the right to fly...sorry but I have never payed for my experience except through hard work, studying and perseverance mixed in with a bit of luck....and some people just waltz in with cash and in they go to the right seat of a jet. When I had 200hrs I wasn't even allowed to get a ramp pass to see the big jet. I understand that people want,need to have a job, and the bean counters have taken full advantage of it . This used to be an industry where each company was responsible for their own training and quality but they have turned that responsibility over to others that just look at the cash some sap will pay them in order to sit in a jet. Could you imagine what a court would like if we could pay our way in as a lawyer, let alone a hospital surgery with pay as you go doctors!!! I love it when a 1500 hr pilot says " I could be Captain in another year " !!! sorry where do I get oceanic clearance again ?"

helldog

24th Feb 2009, 21:51

boeingbus2002. You make a fair point that we all have to pass the same tests. Fair enough. But you can never say to what standard a sim test, for instance, was completed. An outstanding pilot with fantastic skills will still get the same stamp as a guy who has had to do a test three times, and even then only just scrapes through.

Where it all falls to pieces is when these guys that have never had a single real life emergency are tested in the air, are they experienced enough to deal with it and not panic and so on?

Mark my words, its only a mater of time until a training captain goes tits up and a 300 hour f/o is confronted with bad weather and an emergency of some sort at the same time. Lets pray that when that day comes it is a switched on type that can still manage to get through it. But if it is one of these 'just scraper throughers'.......

PAXboy

24th Feb 2009, 23:05

Pax speaking
MungoPIt will always come back to the same thing... pax want safety above all other considerations... with the exception that is of paying for it.Yes. Things only change when enough people have died. We see that across all tribes in all cultures. The airline owners tribe is no different.

unb5When it comes to pulling the crew together and getting the job done we are all one for all and all for one , but when it comes down to the pocket book we are just one for oneself.That sounds like the human race at work! It is the drive of individual humans that drives others forward too.

I think it is grand what Captain Sullenberger has said after he was given the platform to speak. His abilities to make the most out of the calm waters of the ebbing Hudson tide are of the highest order. He is fortunate to be able to speak out. If he were very young and just made Captain, looking to a long career, he would probably not have been able to speak so freely. Sadly, it will make no difference - YET - it will put a marker in the public record for the next prang and that is good.

Robert Campbell

24th Feb 2009, 23:22

I think that in addition to the Captain's, FO's and Cabin Crew's names on the bulkhead behind the cockpit, certain pertinent information should be posted.

Capt. Jones has X number of hours total time; Y hrs in type and he makes $Z/year. However, his pension has been cut, so he's hoping that retirement age is upped to 80.

First Officer Smith is currently paying to fly this BIG pretty airplane, and, if he seems overwhelmed, please be patient. We're all pulling for him to pass the test, however the company has to make money somehow.

The Cabin Crew qualifies for Food Stamps, and they all share a flat near the airport.

This way the SLF can make up their own minds....

Sunray Minor

24th Feb 2009, 23:39

Wouldn't cheaper, more available access, through affordable training schemes (sponsorships, scholarships, apprenticeships...), be a better way of ensuring safety?

As opposed to enticing "suitable candidates" through large salaries and an ability to front up the cash for 30-60k ab anitio training package?

HarryMann

25th Feb 2009, 00:33

Sadly, it will make no difference - YET - it will put a marker in the public record for the next prang and that is good.

..which may already have happened?

Milka

25th Feb 2009, 15:31

Some good words written by the well-known Barry Schiff...

The glory years are gone.

I have been agonizing over the topic of this column for a few years, not knowing if I should publicly air my personal thoughts. Not to do so, I finally concluded, would be intellectually dishonest. So at the risk of attracting flak, here goes.

I was hired as a pilot by Trans World Airlines in 1964. This was during the glamour years that began after World War II. Airline salaries were rising, working conditions improved with every contract renewal, and airline pilots earned approval and respect from every quarter. On international flights, airline pilots were treated like royalty.
No one working for Pan American World Airways or TWA during this period could possibly have anticipated the demise of their airlines. These were cultural icons of the twentieth century. At one time, TWA's logo was the second most recognizable in the world (Coca-Cola's was the first).

The death knell for this era sounded on October 24, 1978, when President Jimmy Carter signed the Airline Deregulation Act. The merits and demerits of deregulation aside, the long-term result for pilots was etched in stone. There would be an erosion of wages, working conditions, pensions, and job security.
Things got worse after the terrorist attacks of 9/11. Because of the need for additional security, airline pilots are locked in their cockpits behind bulletproof doors and suffer the indignity of coordinating trips to the lavatory with flight attendants.

I could not have been prouder when my son Brian was hired by TWA in 1989. Although conditions had declined since the airlines were deregulated, being an airline pilot was still a great job. He upgraded to captain on the Boeing 727 11 years later. Although thrilled to be in the left seat of a jetliner for a major carrier, he worked harder and earned a smaller salary than I did many years previously. TWA was assimilated by American Airlines in 2001. During the next two years Brian went from left seat to right seat to the street. He had been furloughed and eventually found a job flying Learjets for a Part 135 operator. He now flies as captain of a Canadair Regional Jet for a commuter carrier.
Like thousands of others who have been furloughed from the majors, he has no idea when he will be recalled. Considering that American is reducing its need for pilots by contractual increases in pilot productivity and outsourcing many of its shorter, thinner routes to commuter carriers, it could be many years before Brian again sees an American Airlines' flight deck.

Another of my sons, Paul, began to satisfy his desire to become an airline pilot in 2000 when he was hired by Trans States Airline, a company that operated TWExpress, US Airways Express, and AmericanConnection. Paul bounced between all three and discovered after 9/11 that he was not making headway in accruing seniority.
After four domicile changes, he opted to leave Trans States and obtain a more promising position with United Express. He worked there for three years, during which he had as many changes in domicile, and discovered that the most he had earned after six years as a commuter pilot was less than $30,000 per year. He again foresaw little potential for a career like I had and with great mental anguish opted to change professions.

Paul recently started a pet-supply company, gets to spend every night in his own bed, and has an opportunity to develop a social life. As an airline pilot gone from home 21 days a month, he had little opportunity to meet someone with whom he might like to share a future. When he did meet someone, he had neither the time nor the money for dating.
Paul says, "It is relatively easy to get a job with a commuter carrier, but not because these carriers are losing pilots to the majors; they are not. The attrition rate at the regional level is high because so many pilots reach their limits of endurance and quit. They find it too difficult to live on starvation wages [especially those with families]. There usually was nothing left in my wallet after shelling out for commuting and crash-pad expenses."

Although these are anecdotal experiences, my frank and personal discussions with numerous other airline pilots corroborate my feelings about the state of the airline industry. I can no longer encourage aspiring airline pilots without first ensuring that they understand the treacherous and daunting journeys typically required to reach for such lofty goals.
Do not misunderstand. Coping with the challenges of weather, communing with nature in a way that only pilots can appreciate, and maneuvering a sophisticated aircraft from one place on Earth to another remains a stimulating and gratifying endeavor (although I think it was more fun with less automation). It is the price one must pay to get there that is so discouraging.

I frequently am asked for advice about becoming an airline pilot. The best advice I can offer those determined to endure the rigorous hardships often required is to simultaneously develop a sideline vocation that can be used in case of emergency. A pilot should never get into a position that is totally dependent on income from an airline.
Does the end justify the means? Does becoming a captain for a major airline justify all that must be endured to get there? Perhaps, but surviving long enough to get there is the problem.

ONTPax

25th Feb 2009, 15:43

I imagine it's only a matter of time before the bean counters at the airlines and the official spokes-holes at the Air Transport Association (the trade / lobbying arm of the U.S. airline industry) will start making some counterpoints to a naive news media, such as, "With all the doom and gloom Capt. Sullenberger has mentioned, the U.S. airline industry has just come off one of its longest unblemished safety records in its history."

Also known as putting lipstick on a pig. :ugh:

Roadtrip

25th Feb 2009, 15:50

Let's get something straight. Regardless of this testimony, nobody in Congress give's half of a rat's petutie about airline pilot compensation. Nor does the traveling public. Congress and the government are the same self-serving incompetents that brought you the economic meltdown of the entire economy. It's not until it becomes a full fledged work stoppage and crisis that it will get any attention.

very old flyer

25th Feb 2009, 17:33

Both of my sons became commercial pilots with me funding them fully up to that level with IF ratings. Youngest son flew for a while, loved it but found that the career journey was too fraught with uncertainties and switched to the IT industry, with an American software leader.
Eldest son persevered, got to ATP level, got into jets, and in time, into the left hand seat of a 737. Airline went belly up, no benefits, unemployed for three months. Got a job in the rh seat of a good company in 737s again.
Son in IT world now clears about double the salary each month compared to the FO son!
The aviation world is not looking after the new generation.

Pugilistic Animus

25th Feb 2009, 22:04

This thread saddens me greatly---All True!!
:(

PA

indie cent

25th Feb 2009, 22:41

I am very sadly considering a career change. I'm aware of all outlined above and the current financial crisis is only going to push pensions, t's and c's in one direction. Anyone know any other exciting career options that are not being eroded as ours is?

I'm completely with rebellion on the dispatches/panorama idea. Recent events spring to mind where piloting experience could be used to remind the paying public what they're paying for.

I'm not usually a fan of sensationalism, but for the sake of the future of the profession...

Al E. Vator

25th Feb 2009, 23:33

I like Sully, he is doing us a great service.

But as long as we all act independently and selfishly we have no chance of improving this situation. The "Shiney Jet Syndrome" forces one aviator to gladly undercut another in order to fill a seat. Thus T&C's are inevitably decimated by understandably opportunistic, short-term managerial types.

The only potential saving grace for us is that, wisely few people are entering the industry but there are squillions of aircraft on order. After the recession, somebody will have to fly them b ut there won't be that many somebodies!

Fly3

26th Feb 2009, 05:14

Today I am retiring after 39 years in the flying and I wish to I thank Sully for putting into words my feeling about our industry. It was a well respected and paid job when I set out but has deteriorated to levels I could never have imagined. I certainly would be hard pressed to find a reason to encourage anyone to join the business now.
Whilst I have worked with some incredible and dedicated people and will miss them greatly, I will not miss the threatment I have been subjected to over recent years by so called security staff, particularly in the USA.
Safe flying to you all but make no mistake, Sully got it right.

Dysag

26th Feb 2009, 06:56

Well said, Fly3.

I don't know whether you've just invented a new word, but I like "Threatment". It happens a lot these days.

bizjetbus

26th Feb 2009, 08:29

It is indeed sad to see the T & Cs being pushed the way they are. For those of you who have a job but is still considering a career change I can tell you what I have done.

Over the past 6 months I resigned from my job to start a new one, got fired ("financial crises, sorry got to let you go") and found a new job. I had a lot of bad luck but then it turned for me and I hit the jackpot.
In the current financial climate I managed to land a pretty awesome job and I'm loving it! My attitude to this circus change somewhat after this experience and I realized that I cannot continue to have my entire life depending this business. So starting May I will get back to university and study part time and work my way towards another degree. I have decided that I need to keep myself flying for another 4-5 years and then I have a solid backup plan should things go t**s up.
There is another thread running on a similar subject (what do you do with you time when business is slow) and there are some more, and some less, creative ideas how to make some extra money. In my opinion there are no short cuts though. If you go out on the job market trying to start a new career you have to remember that most of the time you are competing with some highly skilled and trained people with many years of university studies behind them. So for me there is only one way to go and that is via a university or one of many private institutes offering courses.

I wish you all good luck with your future careers!

bjb

Huck

26th Feb 2009, 12:16

In the early nineties my father made $225 an hour to fly left seat in the 747-200. That is the equivalent of $320 an hour today, accounting for inflation.

The same seat, the same company today pays $168.

Oh and he also had a six-figure pension waiting on him when he retired - also gone now.

That said, I still love my job - even though my sentence in the right seat just got 5 years tacked on.....

Romeo India Xray

26th Feb 2009, 13:09

The state of the situation in Europe today is the reason why I am happier flying a desk for an NAA and only flying about 5-15 hours a month, than flying the line. The NAA have been pinched, especially by the current situation so my salary is really only on par with a local FOs, but I have NEVER in my 17 year career had to pay my own type rating and I never will, I get as much time off as I want (and get to take it when I need it), I get to pursue my other work uninterrupted and I do not have to sit right hand seat to a "boy" who has been promoted up to LHS within 2 years of getting his first job.

The article by Schiff really hits home for me. Like Schiff and his son, I have built up experience in many different aircraft types in both RHS and LHS positions, only to find myslef as a redundant piece of bean-counter's dischargable "excess fat".

I know of no-one post 9/11 who has secured a jet job without a current TR. All of the turboprop guys I know who were lucky enough to get an airline sponsorship are now working for enough money to give them the choice between covering their living expenses or covering their loan repayments - not a nice decission to have to make.

Last month a jet SFO came to me with some good news. He had just received a pay rise. After I congratulated him, he told me that he was now earning ALMOST enough to cover the interest on his loans, and now they were only rising by a few tens of Euro each month instead of hundreds.

Of the Captains I know, there are only two types who seem comfortable; those who came into the industry today already qualified (e.g. had started their careers before the early 90s), and those who have come into aviation as a second career and had acrued sufficient wealth in their previous career to fund their training. Of the others the picture is not so clear.

I am not saying that all the perks we used to get in this industry were justified. The extreme of this being FR who I believe make their crews pay for their parking permits. Is the parking permit a right of the aviation worker? I would like to think yes, but in most other industries the answer is no - I can see FR's point. Where I work, transport is not an issue, but in the UK or USA, the car is a lifeline without which it is impossible for a crew to get to work for that 5am start.

Sure, increasing the benefits package for crew would impact on ticket prices, but as yield management is used by almost all airlines these days, it would not necessarily have to impact on the marketing system or the bottom line - Just adjust the break even point in your yield management programme to reflect your greater overhead. Passenger can still have his $10 ticket if he is early enough, while crews can have remuneration and consideration comensurate with the positions they hold and the expense they have faced.

Until such time as the situation changes, I am happy to stay as far away from the line as is humanly possible. Sure, in my current position I am only on a crumby FO salary, but my quality of life has never been better. I would not sell that out to become a slave to a farsical seniority programme. My bed at night, my lifestyle and the integrity of my marriage are all too important to me to sell out for the benefit of a bean-counter. I am one experienced pilot who has been lost to line flying because of this situation, I am sure I am not the only one.

RIX

FlyingTom

27th Feb 2009, 10:20

Well put Sully.

It has affected me too.

Pension cut 50% (Barp dc scheme), pay cut imminent?

BA pilot!

And Willy would like me to suggest ways I could give back more because there's is only £1.6 Billion in the bank account.

Me Myself

27th Feb 2009, 14:37

I like Sully, he is doing us a great service.

But as long as we all act independently and selfishly we have no chance of improving this situation

Wouldn't that be nice if a huge pay raise could stop aircrafts falling from the sky !!
In the 60's when Pan Am pilots were hooning around the planet, they also were scatering aircraft remains about at a very high rate.
Safety has increased by a s...t load of folds in the last 4 decades while salaries were steadily decreasing. So ???
As to Sully, well fellows.............how many Sully's among us ???? If I may ask. Can anyone here claim he would have done the same thing ??? I for one don't know and I have been flying aroung JFK a lot these past weeks.
So forgive me for saying that I find all this a tad far streched to claim that fat salaries would turn all of us into potential Sully's.

In reply to the above quote, I can promise you that the current situation is going to show how many pilots are prepared to fly for nothing, pay for their type ratings and accept any working condition.
Commercial aviation is shrinking and the beancounters are, sure as egg, going to have a lovely time. Finding pilots will be absolutly no problem for them.
So Sully, I salute you for what you did; I pray to God the same doesn't happen to me so I don't find out what I am made of. Congress doesn't give a tinkle fairy's a..s about how much you bring home or that you have to work 2 jobs, nor does the public and sadly, nor will your pax once they've started moving on with their lives.
You did honour.................well, to yourself and your family and you blew me away on CBS 60 minutes. Until I do what you did I will not use your fame and skills to claim a few pennies.

indie cent

27th Feb 2009, 16:59

So forgive me for saying that I find all this a tad far streched to claim that fat salaries would turn all of us into potential Sully's.

Sorry fellah, I think you missed the subtle point Capt Sullenberger was making...

My understanding is that he did not claim a fat paypacket would make an individual a better pilot; either at a given moment or over time. By striving for better t's and c's he was hoping to recruit and retain the quality individuals who have helped to make and keep the skies as safe as they have now become. There's a difference. I'm pretty sure Sully did not deadstick for a bankers bonus - but the passengers of Flight 1549 may have been lucky that he was there and not pursuing a more lucrative (or less demeaning!) paypacket.

jshg

27th Feb 2009, 19:29

Sully spoke eloquently for all of us.
Personally, I think that anyone who today spends £50 - £100,000 for an ATPL with no guarantee of a job afterwards, has proved him/herself psychologically unfit to be a pilot (although I fully understand the enthusiasm).
The problem is the Great British Public has been convinced that it's possible to buy a £2 air ticket.

oldtora

27th Feb 2009, 23:46

Old ways were best for everyone. 3 or 4 engines. 3 person flight crew. No mobile phones or huge cabin luggage in cabin. Reasonable fares and paper tickets from a real ticket office. Excellent pay and pensions for flight crew and good pay and pensions for cabin crew. Company made a reasonable profit. It is distressing that such a perfect situation could disappear. Why couldn't everyone keep doing things correctly, instead of changing for the worse? :confused:

DC-ATE

28th Feb 2009, 00:04

Ah.....but that's "progress" as they say!!:bored:

PJ2

28th Feb 2009, 01:20

This is the face of "progress":

Deconstructing the Cult of Sully -- More than a Hero, - a Holdover (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-hanft/deconstructing-the-cult-o_b_165341.html)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/contributors/adam-hanft/headshot.jpg

Adam Hanft (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-hanft)

Posted February 11, 2009 | 03:30 PM (EST)

I'm watching Chesley Sullenberger and his crew on "Sixty Minutes" and I'm thinking that the five of them represent everything that our society is losing.

I'm thinking that their national deification, warranted as it is, also tells us about a deep loss at the center of our soul.

When we look at them, we see the grace of experience, and the burden of responsibility. We see a kind of unironic dedication that's leaching out of our lives every day. And their apotheosis - the Inaugural and Super Bowl recognition -- is a sign we are mourning that slow drip.

Who cannot find a metaphor in the example of a pilot who refuses to leave his sinking plane until he checks the cabin two times to make sure no passengers are left?

Compare that to the pilots of our largest financial institutions who -- bonuses protected and dry -- leave their sinking ships without looking over their shoulders at the thousands they've left to drown.

Both Chesley Sullenberger and Vikram Pandit (substitute Dick Fuld or John Mack or your failed pilot of choice) had to deal with what Nicholas Taleb has called a black swan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan)event: something rare and unexpected.

How do you deal with it is a matter of instinct, training and humbleness.
In her Sixty Minutes report, Katie Couric -- with her carefully calibrated blend of purring innocence and sheathed ginsu-knife potential -- pointed out that combined experience of the crew was over 100 years.

But that's not the way we are operating any more. Every day, more and more organizations are hollowing out -- moving past, and marginalizing their Sullys. Anything can be outsourced, a quick study can come in and figure it all out in a couple of days, anyone who actually reads the manual is a schmuck headed nowhere, fast.

So we find young people who are rattling around in big companies, adrift. They used to be able to find someone stuck in an office somewhere who knew the company, someone who knew how to land a problem when the engines die.

But they're lucky to find someone who has twenty minutes more experience than they do.

Pride in duration and respect for sequence isn't just non-respected, it's mocked. I hear it all the time (often from myself): "Can't we just skip the process and cut to the chase." Or that ultimate slam: "He's a real process person."

But guess what? It was process that saved those 155 people: The mindless routinization of airline speak, the drone of the repeated safety drills, the pilot's authoritative but emotionless messages from the cockpit, especially the epically parodied "put your seatbacks and tray tables in the upright position."

We have come to believe our own PR, that we're smart enough to skip the required courses and succeed based on our own genetic gifts...
So while we're jetting around the world to change the world, these dreary-dull creatures of habit are happy doing the same drill every single day.

But suddenly it's all changed. The heroes who get the standing ovations are the Process People. Saving Flight 1549 was only possible because the crew was trained and trained and trained again, until they reached the point when experience becomes reaction.

But we exult in our culture of the amateur. Everyone knows as much as everyone else. There are no mysteries to be wrestled into comprehension. A blogger can replace a sharpened journalist. Spend fifteen minutes on the Internet and you can diagnose your friend's medical problem better than the internist who wasted 10 years of his life in case there's a black swan lurking in his blood count.

And if Malcom Gladwell tells us it's true, we must be right. We're all gifted with a Blink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_(book)) response that lets us justify the unthinking wisdom of the gut. Consideration, discipline, shutting out the noise to focus on the decision --- why, how old-school.

Well, autopilot is great, financial models and smarty-pants algorithms are great, too. But when that flock of black swans gets swallowed up by your engine, you need someone to land the plane who didn't learn it on emergencylanding.com.

DC-ATE

28th Feb 2009, 01:41

Great article. Kinda tells it like it is, doesn't it?!:*

Me Myself

28th Feb 2009, 07:59

Sorry fellah, I think you missed the subtle point Capt Sullenberger was making...

My understanding is that he did not claim a fat paypacket would make an individual a better pilot; either at a given moment or over time. By striving for better t's and c's he was hoping to recruit and retain the quality individuals who have helped to make and keep the skies as safe as they have now become. There's a difference. I'm pretty sure Sully did not deadstick for a bankers bonus - but the passengers of Flight 1549 may have been lucky that he was there and not pursuing a more lucrative (or less demeaning!) paypacket.

I think we are misunderstanding each other here.
First : Have good or better pay packages attracted the brightest in the past ?? I fear not. I have been flying for a major for 22 years now and let me tell you I have been given the opportunity to fly with some amazingly inadaquate morons of which there is a never ending supply.
Airline safety has increased tremendously in the last 40 years and like it or not............mainly because aircrafts have become safer. Sure, CRM and all have played a part. But the bare fact remains, Main cause of accidents is ..........human and speaking of pay package / skills, maybe we could remember this DHL crew who got hit by a rocket over Bagdad and learned a whole new way to fly while those bastards on the ground were looking for a second shot. Sure, there were no pax and they didn't get caught live on tv.
I don't think the DHL pay package was all that shiny.
Last but not least let me ask again how many Sully's are there among us ??? I will certainly not be arrogant enough to claim I am one.........despite my good pay package.
You find out the day it happens and I am really not all that curious to find out.
Gone are the days were pilots were flying a very small group of well off's. We can lament all we like this isn't going to change a thing and the truck load of pilots thrown out on the street isn't going to help us get better conditions. Those of us who keep their jobs will be lucky.
Has the banking system attracted the best and brightest despite their huge pay package ??? Think not.
Do NASA astronauts bring home an insane amount of money ?? Think not.
I admire Sully precisely for that. The guy does his thing no matter what and yes his pax can be thankfull he wasn't the head of Lehman and vice versa.
If you look around you have, Thank God, a lot of Sully's around, in the Police force, fire department, emergency wards who do their very best day in and day out most of the time with a crappy package and this is what holds this place together..........for now.
What will this profession be in 20 years, your guess is as good as mine but I still see young bright and able people who would right now give their left nut to get in the right hand seat of an airliner. Try to talk them out of it it's nogo.
I was just llike that.............exept for the bright and able.

dc10driver

28th Feb 2009, 09:11

As has been said previously, experience cannot be bought. I wanted to be a shiny jet captain when I felt comfortable with my lack of knowledge in aviation. Of course, we all know the answers to the questions and perform to acceptable levels in the sims, but that does not mean we know everything, and that is what worried me........what if? An old FE once told me always ask yourself 'what if' before and not 'what now' after! A piece of advice that has been with me ever since.

Well, I have attained my goals and am now at the low end of the totem pole, Capt on a large shinny jet! It took me almost 15 years to make it. 15 years of flying all over the world, with all kinds of people, all kinds of weather and various types of aircraft. A well rounded package I think.

Was it worth it? Yes and no. I love the pre-flight preparation, the take off climb, the descent and landing, about 1 or 2 hours per flight. I hate the rest period before, the cruise (6,7, or 8 hrs), the all night flights, the uncertainty of the next paycheck, the worry of the family etc.......the pros and cons can go on for ever.

Sully represents what we all dream or hope of. What youngsters think we are made of, what the public used to think we were made of. Being able to go from point A to point B. Handle any situation with efficiency and experience, and finally, bring everybody home safely. He did what he is paid for (Exceedingly well may I add), I just hope I will be able to be as successfull as he was, if ever I have the unfortunate experience of being in his situation.

So for all you people saying that buying a rating and passing the tests is good enough, you are very wrong. The problem is when you have a 2000 TT Captain, with a few hundred pax with sudden problems that are not in the training syllabus or out of the box. That is the difference, experience! You can rant and rave as much as you want, you cannot replace experience with money or will power.

With experienced Capt leaving or wanting to leave the industry (Yes I am one of them) they are replaced with bright and intelligent people that have relatively little experience. Automation has reversed the curve, there are less hull losses, but there would be even less hull losses if experienced Capts were retained........better pay and a little more respect would be a good start!

I can ony hope that the future generations of 'pilots' will have even more automation than now for the benefit of the travelling public. For the yougnsters wanting to be pilots now, I can only say go fly real aircraft in the real world before going to the shinny new jets where bean counters will dictate what you do. Nothing beats 2000 hours of bush flying to hone your survival skills, explore your abilities and to set your limits. Fortunately, with my company, we can still fly the aircraft as we see fit. (Always following SOP's of course) It is a great feeling to fly to minimums manually in 'bad' weather and at max weigths!

Ah aviation......a daydream and nightmare all rolled into one! Just my opinions gents, Keep the blue side up and godspeed to all

jshg

28th Feb 2009, 21:44

The problem (in the UK at any rate) is that for the last half-dozen years or so, aviation strategy and policy - and therefore flight safety - has been driven by the O'Learys and accountants of this world. Those coming up for pilot training, selected or otherwise, are picked not because they are the best potential pilots of their generation, but because their dads can afford the cost of training. The O'Learys think of another way of offloading cost onto pilots, and the dear old CAA/JAA just agrees. They are adopting the 'light touch' method of regulation - the same method used by the financial authorities to oversee the banking business these last ten years, and I don't hear anyone praising the banks any more.

Stop Stop Stop

28th Feb 2009, 23:10

I somehow think Sully will be all right. I reckon he will retire now and join the lucrative "After Dinner" circuit speaking about all this for lots of dollars!

tornadoken

1st Mar 2009, 09:31

Marine Commanders were esteemed. In 1919 Air Transport Commanders were aligned with them - could logically have been aligned with omnibus drivers. In 1950s, Marine, in 1970s, Air Transport became a high-volume commodity (see Cross-Channel steam packet, an elite cruise experience, becoming cattle-truck; see Southwest, Laker Skytrain: "coach"). More Command slots, less esteem. Bus drivers seeking esteem become private chauffeurs. Call NetJets: there are more bizjet Commands today than jetliner P1/P2 in the 1970s. What you can't have is lots of high-priced berths, 'cos the common carrier can't sell the tickets to pay for them. See MaxJet &tc.

pg wing tips

1st Mar 2009, 10:33

Me Myself..

Indie cent seems fairly justified in his reasoning.

You mention that in the past the good salary did not stop morons getting into aviation, I agree. But aviation has changed and is not the same as it was some 20 + years ago. A poor salary package will most definitely not bring in or retain the best and brightest.

I think you are mixing up the issue by bringing in examples of government jobs, such as fire fighters, police force etc. I think everybody would agree that they should get paid more for what they endure much of the time, but such organisations are not commercial entities. The same can be said of NASA - the pay is not bad, but not astronomical, $70-100K ish (excuse the pun).

I will disagree with you regarding the DHL example, purely because the crew was fairly experienced and if I remember correctly came from a military back ground. The training and experience was already there, they had been in aviation a long while and were/ are relatively well paid. The issue was eroding the Ts and Cs, how long can you squeeze these before guys and girls start to say its not worth it.

Having said that, I don’t doubt that talented individuals want to join the profession, but how long will they stay ? Many newbies don’t know what a commercial job is really like. How long will it continue to attract the numbers it does now ? I think there are limits to how much they will wish to effectively subsidise ticket prices. Perceptions are still very much stuck some years ago.

:)

Me Myself

1st Mar 2009, 11:40

Having said that, I don’t doubt that talented individuals want to join the profession, but how long will they stay ? Many newbies don’t know what a commercial job is really like. How long will it continue to attract the numbers it does now ? I think there are limits to how much they will wish to effectively subsidise ticket prices. Perceptions are still very much stuck some years ago.

You're right but then what do you do with yourself when you have spent 15 years in the airline business. Jump out ? Easier said than done as, even if the pay conditions are not what they used to be anymore, it still remains an attractive package ( in the majors anyway ) and you'll never get this kind of money elsewhere. You'd have to have another qualification anyway. In short, you'll always find loads of young chaps wanting to get in and wanting to get out...............once it's too late. That's how aircrafts will keep flying while engineers make them safer and safer.
If Sully had crashed, well it wouldn't have been a big deal in the end ( according to bean counters ). One would have come up with a lame explanation along the following lines " it could happen one in a trillion " and everyone would have moved on. I know it sounds very cynical but it's the truth.
It is just history at work and nothing can be done and that's why a.....s like O'Leary will have no trouble finding jokeys to fly their airplanes with the perk of treating them like dung.

The Professor

1st Mar 2009, 23:58

Sully's piloting skill resulted in what can only be called a perfect outcome.

This occured AFTER sully lost 40% of his salary.

Therefore, why would you be so silly as to pay Sully more money. This event shows that reduced salary and piloting skill are not connected.

lomapaseo

2nd Mar 2009, 00:18

Therefore, why would you be so silly as to pay Sully more money. This event shows that reduced salary and piloting skill are not connected.

I detect a clear inverse relationship

Ron & Edna Johns

2nd Mar 2009, 00:59

Therein lies the heart of the issue: true piloting skill is viewed as priceless or valueless ("The pilot saved my life, you can't put a price on that!" vs "Pilots love their job so much they'd willingly do it for nothing" type attitudes). Neither extreme is acceptable. So the problem is, has always been, and always will be, determining where between 0 and infinity remuneration sits.

GearDown&Locked

2nd Mar 2009, 12:23

jshg wrote:
Those coming up for pilot training, selected or otherwise, are picked not because they are the best potential pilots of their generation, but because their dads can afford the cost of training.

(utopic) solution for this problem would be a mandatory obligation for a contracting airline to provide free of charge type-ratings with no contractual strings attached. If the newcomer has it, it wouldn't matter, same process as newbies much like a refreshment course.

outcome: only the most motivated and best qualified would be accepted for the TR courses.

I know, not possible and all that jazz...:(

GD&L

FAStoat

2nd Mar 2009, 13:44

Feel the need to comment further here!There is definitely a negative attitude to "Handling Pilots" in this Industry .It has been going on for some time,and stems from the Manufacturers/Airlines demanding and making more and more technically advanced automated systems that no longer require Human intervention.A mate of mine ,Ex Capt 737,was P1,as F/O, on the approach to HK in a 747-200,when he asked the Capt,if he could fly in manual?He was warned that any problem he would be for Swords and Medals with the Fleet Captain!!Pilots will be automatons hanging up on hooks,and fed into the cockpit, like the Thunderbirds,for legalityfor flight only,after the required rest period.Then locked up for the remainder of the flight,having brought in their own K rations,if their outfit dont provide!!!Boredom sets in and many will snuggle up in their uncomfortable seat and lean into the sidewindow,falling asleep,until awakened by a knock on the locked door,or their colleague nudging them at appropriate ATC communications.Then the stress of the descent profile is removed ,because it is done for them by the Nav and FMS systems.What more to do ,ah yes land it!!!No ,we now dont do that either ,as we have to prove the Autoland,unless the Captain is out of 28 days,so the arrival is firm.All these Computers have NO Wife,Children,or Grandchildren,Mortgage,Mistress,and Large Yellow streak firmly developed by years of experience in Manually Operated aeroplanes,which gives you a Sixth Sense and Anticipation.Having accomplished forced landings without terrible mishap in over 42 years,Self Preservation takes charge with a shot of adrenalin.In my experience there is be NO thought of what dire consequences there would be If the aircraft were to impact here or there????What kicks in is Training- a condensed image of the 5 Ss,and the 7 Ps,and maybe high key/low key if you have time to replan the impact.Size,Shape,Surroundings,Slope,Surface.The Hudson hit all the right buttons,and the impact would be softer than terra firma.You dont actually have time to think further than a super quick reaction after the 5 Ss consideration-"Fxxk me we are going to get in there!!"The 7 Ps ,you may not even get around to,unless the emergency began a lot earlier and then check lists are the order of the day,but for the uninitiated they are(And bloody Brownes mob should learn this and digest it!!)Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.All these 3rd level and beyond Airliners are removing the Noble Art of Aviating,and putting Xbox Aces in your place.Salaries are now back nearly 10 years ,and with Money Purchase Pensions replacing the long established Final Salary,what is this once proud Industry heading for?

Me Myself

2nd Mar 2009, 17:41

hat is this once proud Industry heading for?

Where it belongs, the toilet !
Fellows, you keep lamenting over something that is done and over with. Capicce ??
Once upon a time there were steam engines and people were using candles at homes.
I am not liking anymore than you do but this industry as we used to know it is gone. Technology has made us almost useless and no we are not treated like royalties anymore. Question is, did we ever deserve to be ??? When I think of the fruitcakes I've had to fly with I hardly think so.
Bite the bullet until you pack up your pension..........if you're lucky to have one. For the rest try to get the wannabees out of this mad house............if you can.

MrBenip

4th Mar 2009, 13:21

Me Myself, "Technology has made us almost useless-"
and from the crashes happening lateley due to technology going wrong it unfortunateley seems your right! Unhappy pilots do not make for good workers the industry has to get the balance right. I hope I don't have to pay a £1 when I come out the flightdeck for a waz, either way pay a £1 or hold-on concentration may be affected whilst technology does its stuff! Hope you get the point.

Pugilistic Animus

4th Mar 2009, 17:43

It's definitely more important to pay 25-year-old airline execs with fresh MBA's or marketing degrees giant bonuses, for all of their bright fresh ideas :zzz:

so they can do everything else but run an airline-----then it is to pay FC

one suggestion they should go back to calling themselves 'Allegheny' so we can call'em 'Agony' :}

Sully, Jeff --- go with Branson!!!--- Silly Pilots, Tricks are for Kids ;)

Al E. Vator

5th Mar 2009, 21:18

Me Myself - your defeatism is part of the reason we are in the current predicament. Why just begrudgingly accept this stuff?

We are also in this situation because one pilot willingly undercuts his peers to fly a big shiny jet. What else would managers do but take advantage of that situation.

Fortunately there are thousands of jets on order and fewer and fewer qualified (let alone experienced) pilots to fly them.

Basic law of economics dictates that will improve salaries at least.

Me Myself

6th Mar 2009, 08:09

[QUOTEFortunately there are thousands of jets on order and fewer and fewer qualified (let alone experienced) pilots to fly them.

Basic law of economics dictates that will improve salaries at least.[/quote]

My defeatism as you say, is only based on these basic laws of economics.
Supply and demand.
I was reading yesterday that 11% of the total world fleet is parked in the desert and this ain't over yet. More to come I'm afraid.
I think you are wrong. Even if traffic picks up once this recession is over ( when ??? ) it will remain a very competitive industry where controlling costs will be paramount.
I am sorry you are still living in that shiny past of ours where, as it has been said, we were treated like royalties.
Back a couple of years ago, I was standing outside my hotel in New York, waiting for my transport. A guest came out and asked me to order him a cab !!! ................which I did by the way, opened the door for him and only then did he realize who I was. That spoke volume to me and I had a real laugh. So much for taking oneself too seriously !!
When I was a kid, engineers were royalties, then came the managers who also flamed out once technology allowed to trim the corporate tree.
Until recently it was hedge fund managers. Who will be next ??
It's only history on the move and there is nothing you can do.
Air travel has become as tacky and common as a flat screen tv.
I understand you don't like hearing it, nor do I relish saying it but I totally refuse to kidd myself. I take what's good in it and would advise any Wannabee ( who will not listen ) to stay away because if you're looking for passion you will not find it in the airline industry.

DC-ATE

6th Mar 2009, 11:13

Me Myself (http://www.pprune.org/members/219698-me-myself) -

Man, you hit the nail on the head there! A bus driver gets more respect these days. I mean the kind that drive those land-based machines!:bored:

Latearrival

7th Mar 2009, 16:13

Have been a voyeur on PPRuNe since a pilot acquaintance put me onto this site a few years back. Used to just check in after an incident but now I also appreciate getting your perspectives on a variety of issues as well as the humour and computer tech support. I can understand the feelings of disappointment and anger expressed by some on this forum. Many appear to have gotten a raw deal and received pretty poor treatment from their companies. I know why you feel there is less fun in flying than there once was. I also sympathize with your frustration about over zealous and seemingly pointless security searches by Neanderthals in uniform acting on orders from above.

But comments like “technology has made us almost useless” and “bus drivers get more respect” .…..Surely you don't believe that. I know that most of you get into the profession because you love flying. In return for being able to pursue your passion, you accept responsibility for the safety of thousands of passengers over your careers. Because of that, the respect the general public has for you will always be there. Autopilot doesn't take care of every eventuality and we're well aware of that. We want to believe that you're up to the challenge of achieving the best possible outcome if things go wrong. (After time spent on PPRuNe, I know more than I want to about the downside of autopilot and FBW systems.)

My dad was a mechanic for a major airline. I'm old enough to have had the privilege of being allowed in the cockpit when I was a kid and remember being in awe of what I saw there. As an adult, that feeling of awe has given way to respect and appreciation for what you do. And I know that even those who aren't aware of some of the realities of piloting— like sleep deprivation and the toll separation can take on family life—are thankful that you have what it takes to do demanding work with more responsibility than the rest of us can even imagine. The crew of flight 1549 has done a tremendous job in reminding the public of that. As an aside, although I have always had a lot of respect for those in the cockpit, I now view flight attendants in a new light and admit that (in my mind) I didn't give them the respect they deserve.

One poster commented that you used to be treated treated like royalty and those days are gone. Well, even royalty isn't treated like royalty these days. It's a sign of the times. But hopefully most of you know that you are still respected, appreciated and even admired. Today's police officers would like a little of that.

Gipsy Queen

7th Mar 2009, 18:12

Respect is earned, it is not given without merit.

That is why transport pilots are held in high regard; they perform the functions they are paid to do, competantly and professionally. When the police do the same, they may come to enjoy a similar standing.

pg wing tips

17th Mar 2009, 22:52

The professor (post55)

I find myself reading your post and not being completely sure if it is tongue and cheek…your argument seems so simple that I’m not sure if you are joking ?

Captain Sullenberger has already gained his experience and knowledge in commercial aviation prior to any pay reduction. A military background prior to joining commercial flying also helped I’m sure. You do not loose all that just because your salary decreases.

It has been mentioned prior to your post that once you are in a job for a number of years it becomes much more difficult to change career. Captain Sullenberger is 58 what would you suggest he do ? I would also assume that he is senior enough to still be on enough of a salary to live and even though he detests taking a cut will hang on until retirement.

The point is that the training and knowledge was already there. There are great number of issues surrounding this thread and cutting pay is part of it. You could look at everything from unrealistic short term goals set by those in charge to personal pride, industry stigma and training to mention but a few.

:)

bubbers44

18th Mar 2009, 05:46

We will be fine for a while as experienced pilots slowly retire. Then we will see what the next generation of pilots will be. Low pay, no retirement and bad working conditions will not attract the best pilots. A few might still come but the quality of the pilots will drop and that will cause a big drop in airline safety. We deserve what we get because automation can't fix what Sully had to deal with, only a highly experienced pilot.

Nigel Molesworth

18th Mar 2009, 07:05

Like Late arrival, I have been reading this thread for years.

In the 1950s (yes!) I ws nuts on being an RAF pilot. The RAF taught me to go solo on Chipmunks as a cadet. Then there was the infamous 1958 Duncan Sandys Paper. The RAF advertised itself for "boys who want to fly" .... no mention of a career.
I chose a different career, was very successful, made redundant in 1999, had enough skills to pick up another very successful set of consultancies - happy with it all.....
What did I learn and what's it got to do with you ?

I was very active in my union; we didn't win everything but we didn't lose a lot. We had scabs - we fought them as hard as we fought the management. We found publicity a powerful weapon - tell the public how it is.
[I]Honestly[I] very, very few people think there might be someone in the front seat paying to fly them.....

Push the press, the TV, the aviation magazines, [I]anyone[I] you can get the message across to. How much do passengers pay to fly Ryanair? How much do pilots pay ? Have (jokes) - leave bits of paper on airline seats with requests for collections for the pilots' (cabin staff ?) training.

BET I've just been made "redundant" from one of my consultancies for speaking out .....
I'm poorer but my head's still high.....

Good luck; when I'm in the back, I'll be thinking of you up front.

Nigel

What-ho Squiffy!

23rd Mar 2009, 01:15

G'day Gents.

The way I see it, the problem lies with public companies. The CEO's of public companies exist ONLY to:
1. Provide dividends to the shareholders
2. Facilitate an increase in the share price

Share holders don't care if your airline is "almost crashing" 99% of the time. This doesn't affect the share price. And you can bet your backside that the CEO's are managing this risk with armies of Actuaries telling them how far to push it. When I say push it, I mean compromising on the quality of crew through hiring practices and over-work.

Some major airlines seem to now effectively operate wide-bodied jets with a single experienced operating pilot, and a seat-warmer sitting alongside. That's fine when everything is going well; but, what happens (for example) if the captain experiences a subtle cerebral haemorrage (brought on by stress, too much booze, and not enough sleep?) on brakes-release at a major city airport?

They suck in a flock through the two left engines; the captain is thinking "Look at all the pretty lights..."; the copilot is thinking "Wow, he's so good this guy, he's rolling inverted and pulling to get us out of this...". Fully-laden widebody ploughs through 150 houses and two hotels. 620 instant statistics go into the spreadsheet.

I see this risk management style of the airlines as being similar to a lift curve: all seems fine as your angle of attack rises and rises and rises (look at our cost-savings; look at our beautiful safety record; most importantly look at our in-flight bar).

But then your angle becomes critical, and you stop flying.

"Oops; we shaved a bit much from our operating costs. Very sorry for the crash."

I think the aviation industry is unwillingly participating in a statistical experiment at the behest of the public companies.

Only after the last merger has been made; the last competitor has been bought; the last non-essential human employee made redundant, will public companies realise that what they've been doing has been unsustainable.

Given the recent global debacle at the hands of the "Captains of Industry", this time is coming sooner than we may think.

But I could be wrong, and everything will continue just fine, and nobody will be hurt. Now let's all hold hands and sing "Kumbaya".

avi8ors

25th Mar 2009, 05:09

Read this blurb about airline profitability or not ... http://www.businessspectator.com.au:80/bs.nsf/Article/Aviations-rapid-descent-$pd20090325-QG2W3?OpenDocument&src=kgb

Doesn't bode well for the industry. Maybe we should ask the gubmints of the world to print some more money over here, please, like the US gave AIG $150 billion.

ironbutt57

25th Mar 2009, 15:32

Thought a "hero" is one who puts him/herself in harm's way to protect others..as I see it, while having done a brilliant job in ditching the aircraft, this chap was merely ensuring his own survival, and by default those of his passengers and crew...:yuk:

PJ2

31st Mar 2009, 16:20

This survey was put out in early March by Ascend. The results should surprise very few here but won't be popular with airline managements:
Aviation Insiders' Survey Backs Hudson Hero Captain Sullenberger's Concerns

Last update: 12:44 p.m. EDT March 30, 2009

LONDON & NEW YORK, Mar 30, 2009 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- In a year already struck by high-profile accidents, the aviation industry has repeated
its anxiety about safety, in a survey for Ascend, the aerospace specialists.

Along with poor financial health, a shortage of experienced personnel, fatigue and tough work practices were considered the greatest dangers
to air safety, mirroring concerns expressed in an Ascend survey last year. This year, fears over complacency had significantly increased.

The results come shortly after Captain Chesley Sullenberger's comments that cost cutting practices, putting pressure on airline staff, are
threatening safety. Speaking about his successful landing of US Airways flight 1549 in New York's Hudson river, he said, "One way of looking
at this might be that, for 42 years, I've been making regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training. And on January
15th the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal." Sullenberger is alarmed at practices, which he fears threaten
that bank.

Ascend Safety director Paul Hayes agrees with the sentiment. "Industry cutbacks are causing concerns. Aviation personnel are aware that they
are working harder for less money, and they link this with increased risks to safety," he says.

"However, these views need to be balanced with the fact that safety is expected to continue improving over the next five years thanks to
better technology and management accountability for safety. It follows that respondents overwhelmingly placed responsibility for continued
improvement with management. They feared that inexperience, fatigue and complacency threaten the value of safety improvements."
Almost 200 aviation insiders from over 40 countries responded to the survey, conducted in March by Ascend.

Ranking safety threats from 1 (least important) to 10 (most important), most insiders rated: a shortage of experienced personnel at +7;
airline financial health +7, management experience and culture +8; fatigue/difficult work practices +7; and complacency +6.

"It's important for aviation management to take these views onboard and respond accordingly, seeking to balance economic challenges with
appropriate levels of safety training and sound work practices, says Hayes."

Observations by respondents supported these views:

-- "Airline management irresponsibly views safety as an additional cost."

-- "Safety is about attitude and accountability."

-- "Cost is the problem in all areas."

-- "Top down emphasis on safety is what brings it to the fore."

-- "Pilots must be trained to immediately to go to manual to avoid secondary impacts."

For charts on survey results:
Survey Results (http://www.ascendworldwide.com/content/download/SafetyData/AirsafetyData.htm)

About Ascend
Ascend ( www.ascendworldwide.com (http://www.ascendworldwide.com)) is the world's leading provider of specialist information and consultancy services to the global air transport industry. For over four decades it has supplied the most reliable, trusted and up-to-date aviation industry information and insight available anywhere.