SCMP article re: local v expat terms

[hongkongfooey]

Surprisingly, nothing on PPRUNE regarding the article in SCMP regarding local COS versus Expat COS in KA and CX.
Of course a completely balanced :yuk: story about how CX/KA are basically discriminating against locals by paying them up to half the amount paid to expats ( of course this is only true if an expat rents an expensive apartment or buys one ).
I did not personally see the article but it apparently goes along the discrimination line ( which it reports is against CX/KA policy ), and there is a bit of a spiel from a KA rep who says they need to pay more to attract o/s pilots due to lack of local pilots etc.

So I thought I would open the batting and ask :

1) If it is discrimination paying local pilots less, then is it also discrimination not paying upwards of $700,000 HKD to train an expat " off the street " ( I believe only locals or children of permanent ID holders can apply for cadetship ? )

2) In KA, JFOs fly from the RHS of A330/320 with less than 200hrs total time, so is it not discrimination against non-locals who have to have 2500 hrs before KA will look at us ?

3) Does any sane person really think we would leave our home countries to live 8,10,12 + hours from our friends and family in some of the worst pollution in the world for no reward ?

I would agree that it is discriminatory if a local pays for his/her own training, gets the required experience for KA/CX direct entry, and then still gets paid local conditions ( which I believe is the case )

Running to bunker ................................

[hekokimushi]

i think the case is not for cadets!

its the case where a few pilots invested paid up front themselves get all the required training and hours the "routine way" PPL CPL as an instructor, regional flying in ANOTHER Country then applied KA but were given a "LOCAL" terms.

just that these pilots also have HKID but were given LOCAL terms is the discrimination filed against. NOT for CADETS. THESE SCMP subjected pilots also have the right to work elsewhere before joining KA.

[14MonthInterview]

Oh D@mn,

I don't know which company you work for, either way...

CX currently takes on cadets who are Permanent Residents, Residents and will probably shortly be introducing the cadet program to those you call 'expat off the street' (that in itself a contradictory term!)

Not only that, they have also taken people (expat or otherwise) 'off the street' and paying them $XXX,XXX HKD to be train as instructors and giving them a seniority number whilst working as an instructor in ADL, these people potentially have ZERO experience before starting their course and will be offered employment on full expat terms once they return to HK!!!

You are correct that we take the RHS as S/Os at KA (not JFO) with not much more than 200hrs. But what happens when we get the same highly regarded 2500hrs that you had when you joined, which would have all been on 320/330's no less, do we automatically get the package you're on? Are you willing to bet your expat allowances on the fact that there are plenty of locals with more experience than their expat colleagues but are still discriminated against because they are classed as 'local'?

Finally, I don't know if you mingle with the lower class you refer to as locals, but you will find many KA and CX locals hail from all over the world.

Sorry Fooey, its not personal, but you put it out there so I had to vent!

[EXEZY]

Well if you're so aggrieved 14th month, why didnt you take yourself off to a flying school and then work your way up the ranks like we did and then qualify for your coveted CX housing. You are the type of person to say "you knew what you were in for when you signed" and this i'm afraid applies to you also. Case closed! :ugh:

[Mullah Lite]

HKfooey, read with interest your points about that SCMP script. Might I chuck in a few pennies to consider:

<1) If it is discrimination paying local pilots less, then is it also discrimination not paying upwards of $700,000 HKD to train an expat " off the street " ( I believe only locals or children of permanent ID holders can apply for cadetship ? )>

- Consider the amount than an expat will make over the course of a career at any airline here vs. a local with the current COS in place. The initial investment that the companies make training a cadet is well made up in the space of several years from the cost saving of the extra benefits that the expats would otherwise get, hence the drive to fill up the recruitment quota for both KA and CX cadetships. Might it not be fair to say that after a cadet serves several years and produces a given turnover for the company that makes up for the training costs (forgive me for not quantifying but numbers are not my forte, perhaps someone else can?), and provided that they pass all the requisite checks/exams/interviews as every other pilot must do to preserve their position, that they should be entitled to the same monthly remuneration as the next guy doing the same job, regardless of their background?

2) In KA, JFOs fly from the RHS of A330/320 with less than 200hrs total time, so is it not discrimination against non-locals who have to have 2500 hrs before KA will look at us ?

- Isn't that a bit like comparing apples to bananas? The screening process for DE applicants vs. ab initio starts on different tangents. Granted, 2500 hour applicants have to demonstrate a proficiency commensurate with their experience, but consider that a 0 hour guy has to demonstrate their potential to fulfill a very intensive 14 month course and then some, to obtain a minimum licensing requirement, which most DE applicants would have had years to complete prior to even their first job scud running cheques. Thereafter, their performance is eventually graded to the same standard as anyone else in the company (certainly before they are released to line as an FO). Besides, those 2500 hours might have been on something with bigger cojones than your average ADL fly swat but not necessarily with a turbine. Would it not be fair to say then that cadets and non turbine (though experienced) DE applicants would both have to be educated to understand and get a feel for jet a/c and hence, are starting from pretty much the same page?

<3) Does any sane person really think we would leave our home countries to live 8,10,12 + hours from our friends and family in some of the worst pollution in the world for no reward ?>

- Despite the bitching that we all hear coming from the company reps having to shell out more to attract people from abroad, I can safely say that the vast majority of locals would never want expat Ts&Cs to be downgraded to a local equivalent. There is not one local I personally know who wants to see any of their colleagues' conditions diminish, however they are questioning the validity of their own contracts with regards to performing the same duties as the next person and basically getting paid half the amount, despite also having children to educate, a wife's bag habit to support and rent/mortgage to pay. Most recognise the requirement to fulfill an obligation to recoup their training costs but why should these obligations be stretched out over the course of potentially a 30 year career? I challenge anyone to deny the disparity in equality there.

<I would agree that it is discriminatory if a local pays for his/her own training, gets the required experience for KA/CX direct entry, and then still gets paid local conditions ( which I believe is the case )>

I believe this has happened to an individual who is no longer with us and is in fact is in command of the speed demons over at HKE. In his case, it was a blatant stab on the company's part at sensibility and respect for an applicant's right to the same Ts&Cs as those who were coming in with requisite DE experience levels.

And as a final thought, I have heard on the line from a few about how the cadets deserve what they have because of the opportunity presented to them by the two host airlines, that others joining from overseas have had to toil for years to get to (i.e. the right hand seat of a twin aisled jet). For the record, I went through the cadetship but I had also previously paid my way through to a frozen ATPL and earning food stamp pay doing shuttle runs in rickety buckets of ****. I would gladly have toiled just as much, however political borders being what they are, getting employed long term by anyone short of colombian drug runners as a foreigner was an impossibility. So the concept of opportunity for locals vs. expats runs both ways; few expats have the opportunity to join widebody airlines without requisite hours, but few locals have the opportunity for long stay in countries that have a system for building those flight hours. There is a sob story on every side but in the end, everyone has to perform to pass their RT/PCs for years to come.

Soapbox dismantled......air raid siren on stby, knowing full well that opinions differ vastly in this colourful world.

Lite

[wowpeter]

Where should I start...

I personally have no problem for expat to earn whatever package that they are earning but it is the arrogant attitude from the expat who thinks they deserve what they deserve that drives most of those who are on local COS nuts.

First let me rebutt some points brought forward by our original poster...


1) If it is discrimination paying local pilots less, then is it also discrimination not paying upwards of $700,000 HKD to train an expat " off the street " ( I believe only locals or children of permanent ID holders can apply for cadetship ? )

It is not discrimination for not paying to train an expat... HK law say explicitly that it is not illegal to discriminate against others not in HK... so not paying for the training cost for someone "off the street" from let say Australia or USA or whereever else, is perfectly legal in HK! However if CX only hires Chinese and not Indian, Japanese, Black or Caucasian who has HK resident status, then CX is discriminating. In this case, CX is not doing that.

2) In KA, JFOs fly from the RHS of A330/320 with less than 200hrs total time, so is it not discrimination against non-locals who have to have 2500 hrs before KA will look at us ?

It is perfectly legal for KA to do that... any JFO, even with as little as 200hrs has met all HKCAD requirements to qualify to perform their duty as an JFO at KA. So it is 100% not discriminating. It all depends on HKCAD requirements, because aftertall, they are the air regulating body for any HK airline.

3) Does any sane person really think we would leave our home countries to live 8,10,12 + hours from our friends and family in some of the worst pollution in the world for no reward ?

Yes... you leave because you think the CX offer a package that outweights your inconvenience, that's why you are here, is it not? So if your argument is valid... why do you think that it is not the case for some cadet who happens to have HK resident status but in fact are from Australia, USA, Canada, UK, France, South Africa, Japan, etc etc... so are you really discriminating against them?


So overall... there is no point to argue with the original poster really... soon reality will have to set in for many of the expat in CX that the laws in HK are indeed changing, albeit slowly but it is changing... With the latest Race Discrimination Ordinance that will come into play later this year. There are a few things that CX will need to resolve.

One particular is the following:

“It is unlawful for an employer, in the case of a person employed by that employer at an establishment in Hong Kong, to discriminate against that employee (based on Race, Color, ethic origin, and others as stated on the Ordinance Section 2)–
a) in the terms of employment which the employer affords that employee;
b) in the way the employer affords the employee access to opportunities for promotion, transfer or training, or to any other benefits, facilities or services, or by refusing or deliberately omitting to afford the employee access to them; or
c) by dismissing the employee, or subjecting him or her to any other detriment”

This particular section, in simple English terms, it means that a company in HK can no longer offer EXPAT and LOCAL terms for the same job. This is also how the Equal Opportunity Commission explain it in their Q&A to the public. There are a few other obstacles for those who are already on Local terms, and there are a few points in this ordinance CX can argue otherwise, but it does looks like there is a strong case for the locals and lots of valid arguements for the locals in this new ordinance, and you will be sure that a lot of locals will soon be asking AOA and others to look into this issues as soon as the law comes into effect later this year.

[C172Driver]

Very nice post Mullah Lite, you have some very good points and I completely agree.

If I work until I am 65, I would have served Cathay for 45 years as a pilot. I certainly believe that I would have repaid all my training costs with the savings in education and housing benefits within that time. I do believe we owe the company for the opportunity they have given us and to repay the training. But there does come a point where I believe we have repaid all of that.

Once in the company coming in as a cadet, we are starting on the same slate, and I mean as an equal. We have to tick the same boxes and achieve the same standard of operation.

Wowpeter has some good points as well, interesting post.

[8888]

This issue is a farce! As an expat I'm here for the money. It's the only reason I came. If the package wasn't what it is I'd take less and live in my home country and suck in the fresh air.

If the chaps on local COS don't think they are being remunerated as they see fit then do what the rest of us have done and go elsewhere. If they don't have the 'tools' to do so then by default they are being paid appropriately here in HKG. After all the crap I and most expats have gone through in this industry to get to where we are today you'll have to forgive me for getting just a little ****ty when a handful bitch and moan about what they have 'signed up' for.

It seems that a free ride isn't enough anymore... Something about cake and eating it too?

[Minimums!]

mullah lite, well said.

im amazed at how little some of the expat guys know about the cadets and the locals.

8888, there's nothing in the cadet program thats a free ride buddy

Minimums!

[8888]

Well perhaps 'free ride' is a relative thing but having your flying training entirely financed from scratch to the right hand seat of an airliner strikes me as a 'free ride'. I haven't questioned the calibre of candidates they choose nor the work that they put in to complete the course but once accepted if they meet the grade they do walk into a job at the top echelon of the industry.

As for others on local COS for differing reasons... These are the ones that 'signed up', eyes wide open, that I referred to earlier. If you sell your soul to the devil to jump the queue how do you expect to get it back years later when you do have extensive experience? CX/KA let you in with less experience than the normal entrant. That gave you a number of years, in some cases, head start accruing jet time on still good money which now allows you to look elsewhere to wherever the highest bidder resides should you not be happy with the status quo, financially speaking.

It basically comes down to demand and supply.

[Mullah Lite]

Top of the morning all

Quad 8, granted, timewise the cadetship is an accelerated program and results in sitting at the pointy end of things along with the guys who join as DE in the space of less than two years, whereas they might have spent the better part of ten clawing their way up the aviation ladder. The effort that expats have put in to arrive here at CX is certainly recognised by the LEPS but I can hardly say that the reverse is true. The idea that it is a matter of time served vs. reaching a given standard prevails as a banner for justifying the reduced pay package that a local should get. As a corollary to that line of thought, then surely someone with 10 years of fast jet military instruction ought to be paid more than someone coming in with 4000 hours of Q400 time. But I'm sure that idea would be met with great apprehension by anyone with a good head on their shoulders.

<It seems that a free ride isn't enough anymore... Something about cake and eating it too?>

The cadetship is not a free ride for the individuals who get through and pay for it for the rest of their CX career in the form of, effectively, half the remuneration an expat would get. To have to complete a HKCAD ATPL in the space of 8 weeks is not a cakewalk, and to suggest that the LEPS don't have to put in the work to get to where everyone else has to be at, especially when they get their 4th bar, is nothing short of an insult. Yet a local captain remains on reduced terms despite shouldering the same burden of responsibility. Wowpeter made a remark about how this perception drives some of the LEPS 'nuts', and it doesn't take a neurosurgeon to figure out why. Something I cannot understand is why it serves the moral interest of some to see their local counterparts receive less than they do just because a similar opportunity to join such a program was not open to them in the first place. If that's the case then someone had better get on the issue of the Instructor's Course happening down at ADL at the moment, because those guys will be starting on the CX seniority list 4 years ahead of actually even sitting in a CX widebody whilst farting around in a G115-b for their fixed tenure there, before coming back on, that's right, full expat terms.

EngineOut, I take your point but having been down both routes (saving up to pay for my own licenses thereafter riding rustbuckets and doing the FTA thing) I don't think it's fair to say that FTA was a walk in the park. The pressure to perform in such a short period of time is not an easy task and to have some of our colleagues diminish the weight of that is what I think most LEPS find difficult to deal with. Surely the reciprocity in the recognition of work that everyone does to fulfill their careers here at CX/KA is a small thing to ask? I recognise as do you that the cadetship serves as a cost saving measure for the company and hence its primary existence as such, but surely it would be a matter of equality to allow a local the same anything as an expat after they have fulfilled a given financial obligation to the company. Nobody is asking for a free ride here.

Lite

[hongkongfooey]

Hey, c'mon guys, some sensible well thought out posts, good debate for both sides, no emotive abuse..................are you trying to get us all kicked off PPRUNE :E

The point about paying back any costs to CX/KA is a little moot as was pointed out, cadets accept the conditions in the 1st place, I would be interested to know how many guys would have accepted a CX/KA career " off the street " with zero flying hours and effectively no out of pocket expenses v the way most expats did it, that is somewhere in the vicinity of $500,00HKD outlay with absolutley no gaurantee of a job flying a bugsmasher around the outback let alone an airline job.
I for one, not being a gambler in the least, would have taken the cadet path.
It would also be interesting to note the difference in pay between " local terms " and most non-airline jobs, I don't exactly know the local COS but I can tell you I averaged $2000HKD/month for 5 years ( not a misprint ) and I was considered reasonably lucky to only take 5 years to get an airline job ( sure there are some that did it in less and lots that did it far tougher, inc guys/gals that never made it to airlines )

And yes, for the non cadet locals, that met the same requirements as any expat, I think it sucks.

[14MonthInterview]

EXEZY,

Thanks for your insight, may I point you further up the page, as you will find this post was not started by me! Wouldn't you be aggrieved if someone told you you're not worth the same as a colleague doing the same job in the same company because of where you're from or because you did your training at a different flight school? Not only that, last time I checked, not all the expat working at CX/KA went through the self-sponsored route that you so admire. Many were ex cadets elsewhere or ex military. Does that mean because someone paid for their training they should be on local terms? I know what I signed for but doesn't mean I agree with it, especially when it stares in the face of discrimination. If you can tell me that you've had a job where you were clearly discriminated against and offered a package less that half of your peers because of the travel documents you hold, then I am all ears!

And again, I don't necessarily agree cadets should be on equal terms from the outset, but maybe after SO/JFO phase, or when they've got their ATPLs. When they have gained the necessary experience to have qualified for a direct entry job. As you put it EXEZY, "Work your way up the ranks like we did"

HongKongFooey, your point about those taking time to getting into the airlines is also applicable to those trying to become a cadet. There are plenty of people out there who have tried for years to get into the program, and even self sponsored their own training in order to achieve that goal. And its not only endemic in your choosen route that people don't make it into the airlines. Just because you work with those who did make it through and are sitting beside you in the cockpit. There are annually thousands of appilcants for just a few dozen places on the cadet program. So, to quote above "theres no such thing as a free ride"

[Mullah Lite]

This can of worms reopened is great for fishing. Gets something hooked every time, myself included.

Just going to nibble at the bait one more time before retiring to my bottom feeding grounds. It's actually written in the training contract that you sign for ADL that there is no guarantee of being hired by CX. True that the probability of not being hired is remote but it has happened more than once and none of the guys that I know who have met that misfortune are still flying by geographic design (i.e. they can't work anywhere else to build up their hours, holding only BNO/SAR passports). An unfortunate twist by nature of their birthright..but I think it serves to highlight that nothing is guaranteed for locals either.

But since we all clamour about how so few of us get the big picture, why not illuminate the fact that any division still persisting is because both companies are adept at playing at playing that deck of cards. I-deserve-this-because and you-deserve-that-because falls neatly into the corporate master plan. Idealistic as it might be I think advocating one COS for everybody across the board is a good umbrella to start resolving the other issues that harangue the pilot community.

Fiinal two cents. Maybe.

Lite

[pill]

Dear locals, there is nothing stopping you from leaving and getting a job elsewhere, on expat terms. Fill ya boots. Oh whats that I hear, you don't want to leave home.

[hekokimushi]

how come everybody are targeting the cadets local terms?!?

the SCMP post is not FOR the cadets. its for the lads whom went thru your so called HARSH route flying career ladder as per the average expats whom went thru GA... then applied in KA/CX and landed in a job. ONLY becoz they had a HK ID card. they were given LOCAL TERMS!! thats the discriminating issue.

why are some expats are being so crossed about cadets anyway... ?? all the renumeration packages come out as company expenses. not out of your pocket. so all we are hoping is to get a partial of what you are getting, thats all.

[EngineOut]

Heko,

I agree with you completely. However the discussion I was trying give was also from the company's perspective as to why they pay cadets less, or run a cadet program at all, and the fact that they knew there wan no housing when they started. It did diverge a little as to the difference in backgrounds from cadets/expats, which were trying to point out the advantage of the cadet program and low risk they take, and yet now they are entitled to go and earn an expat package with another airline not based in HK; just like we have moved away from our homelands, family and friends.

As I said before, I would not be here if there was not the expat package, which is exactly why it exists. CX PILOTS ON BASE DO NOT GET EXPAT BENEFITS. You need to compare yourselves to that. Local pilots are living at home, just like the guys on a base.

[Hoofharted]

Therein is the nub of the whole thing. I'll repeat it "CX pilots on base DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT get expat benefits.

A local pilot is on base, at home, in his/her birth place of abode with his/her family and friends, not having uprooted his/her kids/spouse et al !!!!! You are at home ergo you are not an expat therefore no expat benefits.

The fact is if a Hong Kong local "on base" was paid expat benefits then he/she would be being paid more than local "on base" pilots who are locals in the USA, AUS, UK etc.

As much as some might like to play the race/discrimination card, that claim just doesn't stack up. Whether you are Caucasian, Asian, Martian or a Venusian and have 1 flying hour or 1 million flying hours it is immaterial. It is a "living away from home" payment.

If you want expat benefits, then become an expat before applying for them.

[hekokimushi]

EO

i understand your debate. but for the company's bean counters, yes, we cadets are the long term financial savers. We signed up what was given. We graduate from FTA, but are not guaranteed a job. like the recent graduates of KA cadets are sitting at home twiddling their fingers.

the numbers wise

let's say for the Housing ONLY.
a DESO get a housing package of an approx 35k a month for the first year.
lets assume it does not change for the first 3 years as a SO in the CX's case.
35k x 12 months = HKD$420k x 3 yrs = HKD$1.26M

very close if not more than an ab-intio training package pay already, correct?

3 years of a cadet would already broke even compared to an expat looking at housing alone. any advance from SO would save the company money. so~ all we are trying to fight for is some housing allowance, local Capt get 24k in CX for "housing" fixed rate, we would like to see 12k for FO, maybe 6k for JFO thats all. Not too much to ask for from the company. we fully respect what you are giving up, away from the family etc. but i would also like to point out that many of our local term's lads/gals have their family elsewhere... living in HKG on their own too.

[Hoofharted]

hekokimushi, you keep referring to Expat, please read my last post.

[Mullah Lite]

Oh the narcotic effect of bait. Just when I thought I was out...they draw me back in.

EngineOut, the fact that cadets will not be half a mill out of pocket, unlike some expats, is undeniable. And as for the military guys, although their training is paid for, they repaid it back in dividends by serving their countries. Which, if we're talking about quantifying servitude rendered for achieving a flying ideal, would be pretty much near the top. But never in this lifetime will I use that as a valid caveat to justify that anyone who risked their lives defending their countries is more worthy of a CX/KA position than someone who joined flying pencils in the outback for years and years having to use burning tyres for runway lights (although I'm sure some would beg to differ!). The basis of my argument stems from achieving a certain standard to pass the thresholds that all of us have to pass, be it the interview, the induction, the STI, the QL, the 3 bar check and so on. I think this is especially pertinent to the LEP captains, though as I have conceded before, there are dues to be paid by anyone coming out of ADL in their initial years of service. But by the time that anyone becomes a captain, they will have been through a damned good dose of the CX/KA system to merit equal terms as their counterparts. Surely 10+ years of being paid half is enough to warrant that, regardless of whether they had 10 years experience prior to joining the airline. If the argument that X number of years prior to joining the airline will always be used as the set standard from which the comparison must begin, then in effect that is saying a local captain who starts commanding from year 1 is essentially still X years behind an expat who starts commanding at the same time. And with little trepidation, I would say that the same basis would go for expats and locals who pass their QL at the same time. Isn't egalitarianism a good thing?

The birthright thing...ngggyeahalright...that could spiral into anything from I was born in the Sudan to I was born in the back of a Tristar so a bit shaky to make any argument from I suppose. Just luck of the draw so I concede that one to you. But unfortunate nonetheless that HKG presents no opportunity for locals to get a flying job of any sort...not even washing the Zlin that GFS just got.

Dear pill, there is something that stops locals from leaving and getting a job elsewhere on expat terms. CX/KA is one of the few places where the housing benefits are structured in such a way that, if you don't piss it all away at the gayviator, allows you to build equity...whereas the benefits provided by the sandstirrers and bugolgi boxes do not because the benefits agreements do not permit contribution towards a mortgage....rent only, or provided accomodation. In essence that would mean despite the rent free living overseas, a chunk would have to come out of basic salary to pay off a place back home (here in HKG for locals) with no opportunity to accrue assets in the foreign country that we would work in. That's the same as staying here....really. I could be wrong now since I haven't been keeping up with jobsearch and haven't looked into expat packages elsewhere for a few years now, but I'm all ears if someone corrects my position.

True that guys on a base do not do not do not do not do not get anything, not even 13th month (which is really sick). But it must be nice to retreat to large open spaces, clean air, a proper house with a tiled roof and garage, kids having time to play and not doing homework till 11:30 at night. And while we're on the subject of living standards, what sort of human being wouldn't want the same for the guys and their kids working right next to them on the assembly line? Is it that awful a thought to imagine a local family being afforded the same living space as an expat-on-base? Sadly it would take more than an expat A scale package to afford in HKG what some can afford in their domiciles, but locals aren't asking for that. Just something that can help them live the same as the guys who live here alongside them. Is that so unfair a proposition?

The worms in the can keep crawling out. Can the lid ever be closed?

[cyrex]

:ugh::rolleyes: this sort of argument again... whats quoting and correcting each other going to prove or correct or do other than stroking your own egoes ... expats gets housing while locals don't is a fact and nothing will change with debating and arguing in a rumours forum. Its not that I am happy with the way things are, i for myself is a local, but afterall when we join the company we did sign the contract we signed. I would be happy ofcourse if the company would eventually be kind enough to give us something or anything since that would be beyond the contract terms in which i originally signed. Some of u said its against HK LAW for this type of "discrimination", and i totally argree with you that to some degree this situation is true. But until AOA finally does something and find significant backing in our claim with the HK court, no arguing is going to help the situation...it just wastes your time and effort. Hope i didn;t offend anyone nor my fellow brothers and sister...:)

[Mullah Lite]

Cheers EngineOut, I did actually note that quote when I read your post. Apologies if that didn't come through in my response.

Lite

[ACMS]

Hey, I seem to recall having my tail feathers shot off in a similar thread a while back.

Expats are EXPATS, we wouldn't be here if you didn't "show us the money"

SIMPLE REALLY.

from the dictionary:

expatriate ( eks-pat-ree-it ) n 1. person living outside his or her native country. - adj. 2. Living outside one's native country. expatriation n.


Now the locals are great guys and deserve all they can get, but at the end of the day they are NOT Expats.

Get it?

Oh, and it's supply and demand that drive the package expats are offered, nothing else. If Cx could fulfill all of their Pilot requirements with 100% locals I would not have been offered my job.............Who knows? in 10 years they might just be able to.............nah.

All of your arguments about expats thinking they are better than locals or that locals are just as deserving as expats are nice but don't mean diddly squat really.

[ACMS]

expats gets housing while locals don't


Cyrex, you do get something more than your salary. As a local Captain you get $24,000 housing allowance don't you? or should we call it by another name to suit your arguement? Monthly hardship allowance perhaps?

[BusyB]

ACMS,
Its already called by another name. CX calls it a "special" allowance.:ok:

[CXChildLabour]

For an easy solution, we should put all expats into apartments out in Gold Coast just like our expat cabin crew. I believe that's a perfect fit for the lifestyle they're used to, with a yacht club, open seaview, and far away from town. They can all whine about not being able to support the numerous cars, boats, planes, wives, gf's, bf's, or whatever they're into in that little clubhouse there.

[cyrex]

:rolleyes: ACMS.... not starting an arguement... just to let you know more regarding company policy... the 24000$ allowance is paid to all managerial staff ( i think they call these people CAT D staff) regardless if they are aircrew or office. And as a local captain yes you are eligible for this allowance. "Hardship allowance" .. please don't think all locals are beggers on the street or something less than you ACMS..:=

[ACMS]

I don't really care what you call it as it doesn't matter a toss. It is $24,000 over AND above your pay. As an expat they call it "Housing", as a local they call it "special allowance". whoop de doo dah day.

Whatever buddy...............

I'll repeat what I said before but this time use bigger font just for you:ok:

it's supply and demand that drive the package expats are offered, nothing else. If Cx could fulfill all of their Pilot requirements with 100% locals I would not have been offered my job.............Who knows? in 10 years they might just be able to.............nah.

All of your arguments about expats thinking they are better than locals or that locals are just as deserving as expats are nice but don't mean diddly squat really.

[hekokimushi]

agree all the experties from everywhere else in the world. so Back to the topic? the SCMP post? these "local" terms drivers should get the expat terms becoz they have gone down the GA route elsewhere?!?

clearly a discriminating case?! perhaps?

[Mullah Lite]

ACMS, then by that same argument, all the expats who now hold permanent HKID cards would, in naturalisation terms, make them locals. Would it be fair to pull the carpet from underneath their feet, because of the change of their domicile status?

Lite

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Most definately NOT,because...
When all these expats joined,their terms and conditions stated "EXPAT CoS"...

The fact that they now have permanent HKID's is an arangement between them and the HKG government..it has sweet blow all to do with CX..

It's all about the conditions under which you joined..you know the deal,either like it or not..and then sign up or don't sign up...plain and simple..:ok:

[hekokimushi]

all the expats who now hold permanent HKID cards would, in naturalisation terms, make them locals.

from housing alone, 80k+ -> 24k?!?
new ideas for the bean counters to cut costs.
after cutting the sandwitches in some flights... what's next?!? couldn't get any finer eh. don't we all hear about the rumoured COS 09 or 10?

[Mullah Lite]

But surely it does. An expat CoS is for expats....local CoS is for locals. Wasn't that the basis of the argument in the first place? A permanent residency status now entitles you to all the same things that a local is entitled to that you would otherwise (theoretically) would have had to pay for out of pocket (hence the existence of an expat package)....free schooling at local schools for your children, free health services at local government run hospitals without incurring extra costs, the right of passage into and out of HKG without renewing work visas via company sponsorship.

Sorry to be blunt in my thought process here but how is that not an acute double standard. Who was it who said something about locals having cake and eating it too? That bullet has just ricocheted if I may say so.

Speaking of ducking bullets, goodnight everyone.

[ACMS]

pssssst


supply and demand..

It's a secret, don't tell anyone ok

good night.:ok:

[Mullah Lite]

Shhh shhhhh shhhh.....Here's another one: a permanent HKID card makes you a honkie.

[CXChildLabour]

Here's a suggestion about supply and demand for ya ACMS, since we have a surplus (:8a.k.a. supply more than demand) of pilots, why don't we start chopping the more costly bunch (:8a.k.a. expats) to get it right back to where the balance should be? Should help to pay our anti-trust fine that way and maybe even produce a tiny bonus for the remaining tens of thousands of "local AND expat" employees in the firm. That could work with a mandatory unpaid leave too if we so desire to keep these expensive surplus just in case we can't get enough DEFO's to fill their spots once the economy picks up again. Wonder if these babies would cry foul when the "locals" dodge a bullet when the pink slips start flying. Oh wait, we can't do that cause it's called "DISCRIMINATION"!!!! :{ WA WA WA, I can't support my kids that have to be put through the same private school that the locals go as well. :{ WA WA WA, I can't support my family back in wherever they are. :{ WA WA WA, my ex-wives are taking all my money. :{ WA WA WA, I can't afford the mortgage for my 2000 sq ft apartment in mid-levels. LOOK, the river is overflowing already. :eek:

If one is here short term just for the dough, granted, he deserves to be paid like a king. But if one decides to call this home and eventually become a permanent ID holder/residence, then live like one. If the "locals" could live a decent life without housing allowance from Day 1, I'm sure these "ex-expats" could too, unless of course if they're bunch of girlie pu$$ies who can't really get out of their fantasy world into the real world. But why wouldn't I be surprised? Oops, I can't say that can I? I'm "DISCRIMINATING"!!!! :ugh:

Last but not least, let's not forget our CoS is signed to be changed without consultation. So don't be surprised when your "expat" CoS is uni-laterally changed into a "local" CoS, which has been done before with HKID holding DESO, who paid their own way through training just like the so-called "expats". You do have a choice you know, if you don't like it, you could go up there and simply says "I QUIT". And we'll all say bravo and wish you best of luck with ur new gig out in the sandpit.:D I'm sure the locals there won't have as big of an issue with discrimination as in HKG and u'll get to keep your housing allowance too.

[BusyB]

Expats with HKID's are still not locals. No vote, and I very much doubt if any other HK benefits would apply.:confused:

[8888]

Some of the above posts appear to have been written by a handful of primary school children. What amateurish drivel. Talk about clutching onto emotional straws. If I could miraculously put all locals onto expat conditions I would. Fantastic. However...

The HKID issue is completely irrelevant to your COS. Your COS is based on what you brought to the table, professionally speaking, when you joined CX/KA. Period.

As for having the expat COS pulled from underneath us at some time in the future... Well, perhaps it will and as opposed to those grizzling above who talk the talk without walking the walk you will find many, many leave. As they did from KA over the last year or so prior to some improvements arriving.

[Hoofharted]

hekokimushi, Mullah etc, you continue to misrepresent the truth. Either your are a bit slow (and I doubt that very much) or you are twisting the facts of the matter to try and make a case.

1. CX have bases in other parts of the world.
2. The locals on those other bases DO NOT get housing/rent, child education etc etc.
3.So an American in America or an Australian in Australia etc DO NOT get expat benefits, why? BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT EXPATS.

Can you comprehend the situation if perhaps it was termed a "living away from home" allowance? You live at home = No living away from home allowance. You live away from home = living away from home allowance.

If your base monthly pay, annual leave, superannuation, advancement opportunities etc etc are the same as everyone else then you are not being discriminated against. The expat allowance is for "living away from home". Why do you feel that you are so special that you should receive extra over and above other people in the CX group who are not expats, working from their home bases who do not get expat allowances? It has nothing to do with race or experience.

And while we are being race discrimination warriors...............where were you when a local Hong Kong operator was sacking staff because they were not locals? Whats that you say..............?

[hongkongfooey]

Someone asked why I did'nt complain about my COS because I'm B scale..................bloody simple really, they told me what I was going to be getting at the interview and I was happy with it, so now I will only complain if what they told me I was getting is taken away, is that simple enough. If you cadets or locals ( sorry I offended someone by calling them a local, touchy mob are'nt ya ) make that indigenous hong kong inhabitants, are not getting what you were originally told then whinge your hearts out, you have a case.

Funnily enough, when ( or if ) I am here for 7 years, and if I apply for perm HKID, my family, friends, grass, wide open spaces, relatively cheap housing and clean air do not automatically all move to Hong Kong....or do they. ( cool, if they do )
The fact that I will then have a few rights that I don't have now changes nothing WRT the fact I AM NOT FROM FRIGGING HONG KONG :ugh:

Any indigenous hong kong inhabitants are welcome to move to, for instance, Australia ( I actually worked with one guy who did this ) and instantly get the exact same conditions as everyone else, around $40,000HKD a month with any LCC or as an S/O with QF, How much do you guys get again ?

Hong Kong is certainly not all bad, but I and most of my expat ( I am really offended by being called expat, gweilo etc, please refer to me as a indigenously challenged inhabitant ) colleagues have given up a lot to move here, and we would not be doing it for nothing, as has already been mentioned, supply and demand, is anyone silly enough to think CX/KA would pay us what they do if they did'nt have to ?? Do you really think they like us that much ??

The best argument of all, and one I did not think of is that nobody on a base gets a housing allowance, so I don't think you guys have a leg to stand on.

[Mullah Lite]

EngineOut, it can't be denied how many 'expats' there are in this company who are now permanent HKID holders. I'm not pointing out that there should be a reduction in CoS upon attaining one either, far from it. What I'm trying to highlight is the level playing field that the situation becomes when one's naturalisation status becomes that of a resident. How does that make someone who joined the company with a HKID different to someone who attains it later, when he/she does?

BusyB, I wouldn't be able to tell you about the voting rights of someone who gets permanent residency after his/her 7 years here vs. someone born here, but I think govt. voting rights aren't all that valid in this debate, seeing as the focus is more on how the change in status affects what public services you would have to pay for as an expat vs. being a local. Interesting point though, I was under the impression that all permanent residents were eligible to vote. Not that voting for puppet regimes gets anyone anywhere quick.

Hoofharted, settle down. No need to call anyone a liar...or lawyer, if it's the truth we're misrepresenting. Leave that label for management where it is deserved.
The crux of the matter is in the equality of living conditions that locals are able to afford as opposed to their expat counterparts. LEPS recognise that the expat package is designed to afford anyone coming in from overseas a lifestyle similar to the one that they get home. Consider though, that depending on where you come from, this varies significantly. Someone from the Dales would probably have had a much more affordable lifestyle than someone from NYC. But the expat package does not make that distinction, everyone gets the same deal when they come here, and that's the way it should be. Now, personally I do recognise that on a base, people are shed of their benefits and are paid a basic salary commensurate with the living standards of the country that they live in. And so the argument goes that in HKG, a HKG local should be afforded pay which reflects a general living standard of where they come from, because that's where they are expected to live out their remaining days. Ok.
Now, to transpose the same standard of review, if someone from S.A. came to HKG to work, does their basic pay reflect that they come from a country where you can afford a 5 bedroom house on proper acreage for the price of a mid level flat? Or that someone who comes from LON could only afford, by comparison, a small semi detatched for the same amount? Coming to HKG removes all of those distinctions. Regardless of where you come from, here in HKG you will all be given, depending on how smart you handle your money, enough to have 2000 odd sq ft in an area not bordering China or Macau.

What I'm trying to get at is that whatever base you are on, surely it's only fair for everyone living there that they should be able to afford a similar lifestyle. Is it right that a LEP only be able to afford 1000 sq ft in Sham Tseng when someone from abroad of exactly the same rank and file can afford double that or more in idyllic Sai Kung, with 2.4 kids, 2 club memberships and all the while paying off a house which maybe they'll go back to, or maybe they won't, depending on how they feel. Can anyone really justify that as being fair? I would be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts proceeding a yes or no answer.

For me though, the most disturbing aspect is how in these forums, there are individuals purpoting to say that if they could change things to put LEPS on a package similar to their own, and in the same blurb start making justifications about how locals should remain locals, or leave, or other such remarks. Guys, all we are trying to do is make a plight for better terms and conditions just like anyone else. Just like anyone unhappy with their lot, there will be complainers, there will be whiners, but more importantly there will be people trying to make a difference. The last people that we would have ever expected abrasion from are our fellow workers, though it seems that we can expect little help from some as well, as they have made their feelings known about how we should deserve our lot.

[Hoofharted]

sirhcttarp - absolutely. If you become an expat you should get expat terms.

Mullah - So you want to be compensated for your place of birth/abode? I don't believe that anyone would have anything against people trying to improve their lot in life. If you can do so, then go for it you would have my and many others support. But don't pull this discrimination bllsht when it is quite simply a case of an expat allowance versus living at home, for the 3rd time, nobody else on a home base gets an expat allowance (a point you continue to ignore). Lets not confuse you personal aspirations with CX cos.

[EngineOut]

Mullah,

I think you are misinterpreting what others are saying. I think just about everyone in the aircrew body would be happy if you guys got some form of housing allowance. What everyone is going on about is that you guys signed up as locals, knowing what the CoS were, and are now complaining that you don't get expat benefits.

I've said it before, but you guys would not have been offered a cadet program at all if it cost the company the same to employ you as the 3-4000 hour DESO. The cadet program is there to save the company money. If it did not, then there would be no cadet program and you would not have this job at all.

You took advantage of the fact, that as a 'local' you could join the cadet program (which is not available to foreigners), and all the benefits that has: no cost to you and 200 hours in your logbook flying a wide-body with a stable job with a stable income but now turn around and want expat benefits as well. Your plight about living conditions should have been calculated when you signed up and you knew what salary you would earn and hence what living standards you could afford. You guys signed up for it.

Experienced or no experience, the crux of the argument still remains; you are not an expat.

Your argument is in line with me demanding A-scale, when I signed up for B-scale. The guy I sit next to is does the same job as me but he is A-scale and therefore gets paid more. Or consider that some A-scale FOs earns more than than some B-scale Captains in the left hand seat, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. But that's what they signed up for.

The fact is CX/KA need to pay a premium for expat packages to attract people they need to move here and give up their homelands/lifestyle/family/friends. If they didn't they wouldn't get the bums on seats they need. You guys are locals and are therefore not moving away from your homeland/lifestyle/family/friends. If the salary you signed up for is not enough for your lifestyle, get another job. Simple.

[geh065]

It is interesting to note that whenever this LEP debate comes up in these forums that people start saying "well thats what you signed when you joined" etc...

Unfortunately the same argument applies for things like payrises and everything else that is in our COS which we are arguing to have amended/updated/improved. of course, there are plenty of things in the COS the company does not stick to anyway which is another story!

[ACMS]

oh boy........................there are a lot of bitter people around here.

And you know who's fault it is.

CATHAY MANAGEMENT :=

[Sault Flyer]

EO

"I've said it before, but you guys would not have been offered a cadet program at all if it cost the company the same to employ you as the 3-4000 hour DESO. The cadet program is there to save the company money. If it did not, then there would be no cadet program and you would not have this job at all. "


FYI, yes, cadet program does saved the company in the long term, therefore we have a cadet program; however, the main reason why CX started a cadet program was to show people from HK that they're returning something to the local community (offering flying opportunity). If the main reason was cost saving, they would have sponser more cadets, having over 100 cadets down in ADL at a time like CAL.

[Gnadenburg]

having over 100 cadets down in ADL at a time like CAL.

Maybe CX don't want to crash all the time.

[Mullah Lite]

Hoofharted, I haven't ignored the base pay issue. Read my previous post. I am advocating for lifestyle parity wherever people live, i.e. those in LAX should be living in similar conditions, those on LON base should be living in similar condition, HKG etc. My personal aspirations? No need to make me sound like an ambitious shylock, but if that is what you believe fits the description of someone trying to argue for equal living conditions, I happily accept. With regards to your other point, I'm not saying that I feel the need to be compensated for my place of birth/abode, but I would hesitate to say the same for you. In fact that point serves to highlight what the spirit of the expat package is about. It's about giving you something similar to what you would have received at home. Without the benefits as great as they are, you would be living like a good deal of the LEPS do, i.e. in small apartments in more mundane locations. Fundamentally because you insist that locals are locals and therefore deserve local scales, you therefore insist that we deserve to live in average conditions in HKG whilst people doing exactly what we do deserve to live better. I fail to see a) the parity b) the empathy c) the humanity but I as hell see the hypocrisy. So how about I make a deal with you. We beg to differ, I stop harping on about discrimination (which up until now, I have never even used the word but I'll go off of what you say) and you stop interspersing the debate with your fundamentalist views on what constitutes local and expatriate. And I would wager a bet that you have a permanent HKID card too, just like me.

EngineOut, I take your points to heart but I must disagree. I do understand the economic basis of the existence of the cadet program. Every company's bottom line is the dollar, we all know that. i've already addressed the point about service rendered to compensate for initial training costs so I won't touch upon that again. But my arguments do not teeter on making as much money in hand as you guys do, merely that I believe since we all live in HKG, we should all be living to a similar standard. This thing about 'we all know what we signed up for', it keeps getting thrust back in the LEPS ears with a steel brush. We know that. If the company doesn't tell us about it, the other aircrew do....right after we acknowledge it ourselves over and over again. I agree that there are complainers who ought to put their words into action but it's not about that as much as it's about a prevailing sentiment amongst those who feel that it's acceptable for LEPS to live worse off than people from abroad....because hey...we're from HKG, that's how hongers live. So I ask again....for the 3rd, 4th or 5th time (can't remember): does anyone really think it's fair? So far no one has been inclined to answer that one.

One thing I do have to bring up though, is something you mention about a stable job with a stable income ad infinitum. Trying to keep this job with 200 hours under your belt, having to learn everything in the same space it would take someone who has years of experience under their belt doing something of this nature, has very little stable element to it. I hope you can see it from that perspective.

<Experienced or no experience, the crux of the argument still remains; you are not an expat.> So we've come back to that one again. Alright, as apples are apples and as a corollary by definition, neither is anyone else with a permanent HKID card. Because that makes you ...... a Honger.




ACMS.....best thing that's been said in this entire thread.

[the reo]

I don't think you are a local until you qualify for the HKSAR passport.
that should count most of us out of it.

[Mullah Lite]

An SAR passport entitles you to political and diplomatic representation. A permanent HKID card entitles you to all the social services that any HKID holder is entitled to. Please don't say that a passport would make a difference to our CoS. This debate is contrived enough as it is.

[Hoofharted]

O.K so in a nutshell you want:

1. Free training
2. A salary while you are training
3. A guaranteed job when you complete your training
4. Not prepared to move away to find work
5. Sacrifice nothing in terms of being away from family and friends, however;
6. An expat package to compensate you for not being an expat
7. Re-write the agreement you signed when you first applied for the job

It may be convenient to "ignore the fundamentals" but that only goes to the heart of the issue. That is exactly why there is a pay difference and exactly why you choose to ignore it, as your argument collapses if you acknowledge the reason for the difference.

In a utopian world we would all be living in paradise. (nope, don't have a permanent card). Anyway, good luck to you with whatever you do.

[Mullah Lite]

Hoofharted, allow me to respond following your point format:

1) Free training: not at all. We recognise our financial obligation to the company for training us. What is fair would be making us pay back with numbers of years of service, but to put us on an essentially half-payscale for the duration of an entire CX career just isn't kosher.

2) A salary while we are training: we receive as much training at this airline just as you do. Otherwise you imply that we are being held to a different standard every time we have an RT/PC. We don't receive salaries down in ADL either, although there is a monthly allowance of a whopping AUD 400 per month.

3) A guaranteed job when you complete your training: The only time that the job becomes a guaranteed offer is after we come back to HKG to sign the CX contract which then gives us a seniority number. Completion of the cadet course is in itself not a guarantee of employment. It's interesting to note that DE guys sign and receive seniority + pay before heading down to ADL to complete JTS and their CAD exams. Locals have to pass everything first. Another slight difference to note, and not in the locals favour either.

4) Not prepared to move away and find work: Actually I happen to be one of those lucky enough to have options once I have requisite hours and as I've said before, I have looked around and I know that so have others. I would caution the assumption that locals who have the ability to go elsewhere haven't thought about it. Personally I don't believe in keeping my eggs in one basket and it still remains an open decision. But my concerns also reflect the situations of those who don't have such options. The suggestion earlier, I forget which post, that someone with nothing other than an SAR passport can just up and leave for Aus is a nice idea, but the reality of the situation is such that the red tape would be a vastly difficult hurdle to negotiate. Why not though, if it's an option, try to change the status quo rather than turn a blind eye at the dilemma. I believe that this is the central tenet of the LEPS endeavours with regards to negotiating better T's and C's and surely they have the right to put that foot forward.

5) Sacrifice nothing in terms of family and friends: There are a lot of local guys who are away from family and friends when they come here. And there are locals whose family and friends have moved away. But a moot point if we are talking about financial remuneration I think...unless you need extra money to deal with the emotional distress of separation? I don't think the expat package was designed to take psychological matters into account.

6) I've never specified 'an expat package' in any of my arguments. What you receive is enough to live well here and have enough in pocket to build a parallel life wherever it is you come from. Two for the price of one. What we receive is enough to live like an average honkie here. Without building assets anywhere else. Half for the price of one. I am advocating for a lifestyle for locals that our expat counterparts receive whilst living here in HKG, I'm not asking for a package to build an empire overseas, which by comparison you guys are able to do. Or at least a little fiefdom.

7) Re-write the agreement you signed when you first applied for the job: I think geh065's post reflects my sentiment as well for this answer. Would you not argue for a contract which reflects inflationary rises year after year? The numbers in your contract are fixed integer values. 20 years down the road, those numbers are going to be worth less because economics are dynamic. Your housing agreement reflects market values. We only have those contractual numbers. The nuances of our arguments are subtle at times, but over the course of a lifetime career at CX/KA (if we choose to stay), the effects can accrue into something significant.

Thank you for your good wishes and I hope this sheds some light from the local perspective but something tells my spidey sense that we will continue to differ in opinion. And isn't that what makes sure the world isn't boring.

Lite

[Mullah Lite]

Sirhcttarp

Don't know how long you've been on the line for but I've found that there is such a variation of thought on the LEP matter. Some support it, most are apathetic and a few downright oppose it. I enjoy engaging in the debate but I am not holding my breath relying on a change in legislation. Large corporations have amazing way of finding loopholes so it's going to be a long fight my friend. Funny enough, I'm still waiting to hear a yes or no answer from anyone about my question in previous posts on lifestyle parity.

[Follow the Follow Me]

Not a single KA local Captain left during the mass exodus of last year. Something like 12% of KA Captains resigned. A startling figure which helped improve the package.

I don't believe KA local Captains were particularly active in the industrial campaign.

Good luck to the guys but don't expect me to go out on a limb. I did that before and helped get you your special allowance!

[trevfly]

In KA we do have local term none locals, guys who were either PRs or had grown up in HK because of family commitments.

We often associate local to be chinese in HK, which just aint true.

However, if we become more specific and say a local chinese or local caucasian, south asian etc and stop being so politically correct

The are an increasing number of local chinese getting promotion to the LHS in KA and many more to follow as they gain the experience.With the current freeze on command training, these guys will jump ahead of their more 'experienced' juniors in time, as many are quite senior now.

There does however, seem to be a bias towards reducing the total experience levels for these candidates, below the mandatory 5000. It certainly happened last year, with one guy comencing CT @ 3600 hours.The training manager does have an asian wife (formerly his DH), as do many of KA managers/senior trainers.But im impliying nothing here of course.

HK Chinese pilots will not become involved industrially, will never stick their necks out, they leave that for the crazy gweilos. They do like to sharpen their knives in private, not on the DPA website.

[Lun-Yeung]

HK Chinese pilots will not become involved industrially, will never stick their necks out, they leave that for the crazy gweilos. They do like to sharpen their knives in private, not on the DPA websit

Not entirely correct. 3 local boys left KA last year and went to Oasis. Although it did not last long, but they still did something about it.

I have flown with all three of them, on both the Airbus and Boeing fleets, and I can assure you,they are all very good operators. Two of them even paid for their own training, did their time in GA, and had foreign passports.

They were given local terms due to the fact that they have Asian faces. What they did not know when they signed the contract is that KA have hired pilots who were born in HK, raised and educated in HK, have a permanent HKID, but are Caucasian..

[Lowkoon]

Locals, KA is your 'GA'. It is where you gain experience, until you can get a good job.

In saying that, I do see merit in same pay once you meet the experience requirements that the expats are being hired under, maybe a progressive transfer to the full package as you gain experience, levelling to the full b scale package once you pass the command. Ironically, that time coincides with you having the experience to apply elsewhere. Market forces should determine what you do. I think your arguement for equal conditions missed its opportunity to succeed by about a year and a half. The closest we ever got to the 'pilot shortage' we all dream about, (that never comes) was 18 months ago. The best chance you had was when the DPA was 'negotiating'. No membership, no voice. Form your own association maybe? Not such a stupid idea, but smarter to be active in the one we already have. Once upon a time B scalers were outnumbered in the association, now they run it. Locals need to see the benefit of weight in numbers, not hiding behind clenched teeth smiles, seething with resentment for expats. Your energy should be focussed on the company that enforces the agreements. At the end of the day, no ones hand was forced to sign a substandard agreement, it doesn't make it right that it was offered in the first place, the same could be said about the offering of b scale.

While our managers are paid based on how much they can screw out of you, (bonus based on savings made) dont expect results anytime soon.

[Mullah Lite]

Interesting to hear the KA perspective. There was also a case in CX where an individual was given expat terms and then downgraded to local terms after the company found out about his ties to HKG. Years later he walked into his fleet office after they called him in to discuss his command upgrade and handed in his resignation letter the same day. An absolute legend with balls of steel. Incidentally he was Chinese.

[Siu Mo To]

I was born in HK, emigrated overseas when I was a kid and now holding a foreign passport. Did my time in GA and airlines. KA offered me a local contract just because I hold a HKID despite:

1. I paid for my own trainig.
2. I have experience similar to other expats.
3. I am away for 10+ years, with no family and not having a place to live in HK.

I voted with my feet. Got a job across the Pearl River estuary. Probably not a wise decision in terms of job security but I know I am doing the right thing. :ugh:
Hmmm... it may not be so bad after all - lower cost of living, lower tax and much shorter time to command. :}

[iceman50]

For those on "local" terms your SALARY is exactly the same as the expat that you joined with. The difference occurs with "allowances".

The "expat" receives housing allowance due to the cost of housing in HK comparable with the country they have been recruited from. The fact that the company allows some people to use that for a mortgage is a "company" decision and purely financial, it is cheaper for them in the long run and "ties" the recipients to the company.

The education allowance is given as the government does not provide free "english" based education, whereas the "local speaking" can receive free education.

So you are NOT being discriminated against as you receive the same salary, flying allowances, travel and right choice benefits, depending upon your date of joining. Local Captain's receive a "special" allowance for being at the appropriate level of management, the same as other non-flying "local" managers.

It is like those who do not have children asking for the education allowance because other people are receiving it so they should, they are getting paid more than me.

If I was at my home base then I would not receive, quite rightly, housing or education allowance. The same argument put forward against extensions can be used, you knew what you were signing up for - live with it.

[Mullah Lite]

WRT the former post:

<The "expat" receives housing allowance due to the cost of housing in HK comparable with the country they have been recruited from. The fact that the company allows some people to use that for a mortgage is a "company" decision and purely financial, it is cheaper for them in the long run and "ties" the recipients to the company.>

What a load of....

Your statement warrants merit if you come from Oslo, Seoul, London, Paris, Monaco, Tokyo or any other metropolitan area comparable to HKG with, and this is not an understatement, astronomical housing costs. But given the variation in background origin I'll bet there are more than some who come from burb areas with podunk commuter airports that wouldn't have a hope in hell of appearing on the Forbes list of most expensive places to live. And how convenient to argue on the side of the company's financial decision making! It just so happens allow you to accrue equity in the form of some of the world's most expensive property whereas such financial shaking and making is almost non existent in other airline's expat packages. Well, let's not touch upon that point anymore lest the company get wind of the fact that they might be doing you, and not just them, a favour.

<The education allowance is given as the government does not provide free "english" based education, whereas the "local speaking" can receive free education.>

"Local speaking"? You can use the term Chinese, it's not a dalit word. Most LEPS recognise the need for families from overseas needing to place their kids in a language curriculum which reflects what they would be immersed in at home. But there are LEP families here whose kids don't speak a lick of English either.....because guess what, their parents aren't Chinese. Would your standards apply to them too? And if so, then what about the expat families whose kids were born here in HKG....they would then be entitled to all the education benefits that a local child would receive, and why not send them to a Chinese school and become bilingual, which a few expats already are. And still claim the education allowance, which some do. What's that about getting paid mroe than you? Oh right, I forgot, it only applies if locals get more than basic pay. Filthy, filthy thought.

[slapfaan]

sirhcttarp...

I agree with your point #2,and remember furthermore that there are now HONG KONG based freighter commands offered too..

- Seniority applies
- Local terms ie: no housing
- "special allowance" due cat D status

And these positions are available to anybody REGARDLESS, I say again REGARDLESS of nationality,permanent HKID,skin colour,ethnic classification or whatever..

It's nothing more than a salary cut and a cunning scheme by CX to by-pass expat housing allowances..:yuk:

[hongkongfooey]

God !! I did not realise how frustrating this would be, but here I go repeating the same :mad: again.

1) It does'nt matter weather I ( and other non-chinese HK inhabitants ) get a bloody perm ID card, a key to the city and a ticker tape parade, MY FAMILY, MY FRIENDS ( some of which I have known for 25 years ), MY CLEAN AIR AND MY WIDE OPEN SPACES WILL NEVER BE HERE IN HONG KONG, wether I spend 7 or 70 years here, nor will the relative peace and quiet I enjoy at home as I sit here listening to the HK anthem....Hammer drills, jack hammers and some idiot sneezing at the top of his voice probably from breathing in concrete dust.
I am not prepared to live out in the New Territories in a high rise 600' apartment for the privilege of all of the above, not when I had a Jet command, a 2500sq ft house on a 5000' block of dirt ( which I owned, not the govt ) and not a bloody hi rise in sight.
Does anyone here really expect us to give that up for nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2) The argument about getting housing on a base ( which does not apply to KA anymore and that was originally what this thread was about, a KA pilot complained to the SCMP ) is a MOOT point, if you had the right of abode in Oz or Pommy land, or Europe, then you would probably have a EU or OZ passport, and unfortunately ( not my fault ) CX would just play the same cards. It needs to be added at this point that none of the guys on a base get ANY allowances, alot of those guys are not living in their home country either.

3) I am afraid I have to agree with Trev, the local guys ( sorry about the offensive " local " terminology ) are very quiet when it comes to any industrial action, in spite of this, the Gweilo DPA have managed to get some extra allowances for the local guys, this of course goes completely unmentioned in the one sided SCMP article. I would have thought that was a royal kick in the guts for the DPA guys.

4) You can't go calling the AOA racist or discriminatory, they have done absolutely :mad: all for any CX pilots, and that is unlikely to change any time soon.

5) HKID,HKID, HKI:mad:D, it does not matter, we are not from here, we essentially do not wan't to be here, not because as I am sure it will be or has been suggested, we are racists, WE JUST LIKE OUR HOME for better or worse.

6) In Oz, and I can only speak for Oz, as a resident and taxpayer you are entitled to ( not after 7 years !! ) ALL benefits, the same as a person born there, Education, Medical ( the public medical craps on HK ), even unemployment benefits, yes thats right, we don't kick you out of the country when you lose your job, so who's country is racist and discriminatory ??? I think I will lobby for all expats to get full local benefits from day 1.
Now hands up how many of you local guys are with me on that one........Yep, thought so.
About as much chance of changing that as of getting CX and KA to pay locals expat benefits....Buckleys.

Signal8, how is Trevfly a racist ? What he said actually happened, so once again who is discriminating ? Facts, not emotive rubbish comments.

Sirhcttarp, Mate, Mate, Mate, I live in a nice part of HK in a nice large flat by HK standards, apart from sucking in the crap in the air I am still living at about 50% of the " superior " conditions I enjoyed at home. I take it you think I should live in another country in even worse conditions still, that's nice and non discriminatory.

Mullah, if you think cadets, initially, are held to the same standards as direct entries then you are smoking way too much crack, and on that subject, Cadets are not equal in that they are not eligible for command, under KA guidelines for around 7 years ( 7yrs x 700 hrs ) whereas a direct entry pilot is usually eligible after a year.

A guaranteed job when you complete your training: The only time that the job becomes a guaranteed offer is after we come back to HKG to sign the CX contract which then gives us a seniority number. Completion of the cadet course is in itself not a guarantee of employment. It's interesting to note that DE guys sign and receive seniority + pay before heading down to ADL to complete JTS and their CAD exams. Locals have to pass everything first. Another slight difference to note, and not in the locals favour either.Mullah, you complain that some of your questions are not answered and happily skip over the fact that Cadets have ZERO financial risk, OK they may not have a gauranteed job but they do not fork out upwards of 700,000HKD and have to worry about living expenses. Do you think our Mummies and Daddies supported us during our training ? No, well who then. ( OK, I do concede a few would have had mum and dads support )

Can any of you argue that your conditions are different to what you signed up for ??
No ?, well why did you sign for something you are not happy with ?

Once again, SUPPLY and DEMAND.
we are only here because CX and KA need us, with 1.4 Billion people jus to the North and 1/3 of the population of Australia here in HK I will leave you to decide why that is.
But need us here and they have to pay accordingly.

Even on local T&Cs you are still getting paid more than 50% of the pilots in the world, FACT, if you don't like it then along with everyone else you can just apply elsewhere, can't you ? ( or don't you want to leave home ? )

[Kitsune]

If I was a really, really devious CX manager I might be beavering away quietly working up reasons for the Hong Kong SAR Government to declare expatriate benefits discriminatory, just as they did with the Civil Service's expat package.....:cool:

[iceman50]

If that's the case Kitsune why do "local" CS still have the ability to send their children to boarding school outside Hong Kong?

Sirhcttarp

I did say that your medical benefits depended upon when you joined. The "expat" has various levels of medical coverage depending upon date of joining!

The FOC is EY class, unless you are a Captain, Pr 4 to home ticketing port, 4 sectors NOT via HKG and Pr 11 for a destination other than home ticketing port, thus the same as a local. The FOC for the "expat" was initially introduced instead of the travel fund, but now everyone gets it, to make it fair.

Mullah lite

As for education allowance you cannot claim it then stick it in the bank, that is fraud, you have to show receipts. Are you sure you work for CX?

[40Deg STH]

Just a question!!!

If expats all leave tomorrow, can CX still keep going?

[Lowkoon]

No, they would fold overnight. The fact that the expat conditions remain are an admission of this fact. They arent a charity by any stretch of the imagination. If they could ditch us all, the dismissal letters would hit our mailbox with the ink dripping wet.

[Guava Tree]

We all know that eyesight is a big problem for many local wannabee pilots, but for those of us locals who have the eyesight medical and aptitude requirements, we should be rewarded with the “rate for the job”. Without proper incentive how will the local Hong Kong pilot contingent ever increase in number?
As a long term CX shareholder I totally oppose this discrimination which I believe is against the long term interests of our company.
Funny how, as core employees, we get a lower rate for the job, but when it comes to possible redundancy due to economic downturn there are few voices to say that Hong Kong People should be last out.
Is CX being run in the interests of its shareholders?

[cx252]

He end result is that, EXPATS get EXPAT package, some LOCALs get EXPAT package if they do something that the EXPATS have done, LOCALS don't get EXPAT package, but LOCALS that do exactly what EXPATS don't get EXPAT package. Now if this is not confusing I don't know what is.

deng...deng...leng...deng... B-R-A-V-O..:D:D:D:ok:

[happy nightflyer]

This thread is extremely tedious - all of you please stop posting.

[Guava Tree]

Sorry I think many of us may be lost here except we may accept that Fife is, in parts, a most excelent region of Scotland.
Romanised Chinese characters like this
deng...deng...leng...deng...
without any tonal clue are essentially meaningless.
Pprune is an English Language Forum.
Please translate into English.

[Mullah Lite]

Iceman 50

Yes I do, though I do not have kids myself and wouldn't be an authority on how the education allowance system can be manipulated, but I do know of expats sending their children to local schools. I'm not a tax expert so I wouldn't have the first notion of how to hide the numbers. I'll be the first to admit that someone else would be better equipped to explain that one.

Fooey, you're not the only one getting frustrated at the arguments here. Both sides are hitting each other's brick walls.

<Mullah, if you think cadets, initially, are held to the same standards as direct entries then you are smoking way too much crack, and on that subject, Cadets are not equal in that they are not eligible for command, under KA guidelines for around 7 years ( 7yrs x 700 hrs ) whereas a direct entry pilot is usually eligible after a year.>

Ok, well, you've said the operative word yourself: initially. If you think that a local FO or CMNDR checked to the same standards as you deserves less than you get, and I've emphasised especially when they get their command, then in all fairness, you are the one smoking crack. Interesting point about a 6 year discrepancy between cmnd eligibility at KA. FYI a similar though less severe comparison happens in CX whereby a cadet enters as a grade C S/O whereas a DE guy enters as grade B, i.e. the cadet has at least another year in the SO position than someone who is DE. But by the time they all QL, I give the C&T department here at CX enough credit that they are checking to a minimum standard to line, regardless of background. In none of my arguments previously have I tried to convey that cadets don't have to work to get to the same standard as anyone else and that this takes time. But eventually, it does happen. Or they Cat D. And when all dues are paid, they are on a level playing field. That's all.

<Mullah, you complain that some of your questions are not answered and happily skip over the fact that Cadets have ZERO financial risk, OK they may not have a gauranteed job but they do not fork out upwards of 700,000HKD and have to worry about living expenses. Do you think our Mummies and Daddies supported us during our training ? No, well who then. ( OK, I do concede a few would have had mum and dads support )>

Zero financial risk.... I have a differing opinion about it, so would the breadwinning guys (albeit few) who've had to be away from their wives and give up their jobs to take the risk of passing the course, and contrary to what you say I've been over this point before, and the only way I can perhaps take on a different perspective is by quantifying the discrepancy in income at the end of a local's career and an expat's one. I do not believe this is an appropriate forum to publish the numbers since it is public for any joe schmoe to read, but if you choose to do them yourself when you have a moment and are feeling bored, tell me if you really don't think an initial 700 000 HKD injection pales in comparison to the end result of your calculations. I'll give you a hint: you end up making literally double in pocket what a local makes. So once again, and now I direct the question at you, since you've so happily volunteered to answer it: is that fair?

[johnjohnpoon]

Here is Hong Kong. Like it or not, the goverment should protect local labours.

Expats in HK stepping on our local policies? how ridiculous. I wouldn't say a word if the Australian government decides to kick all expats out of Australia. They have the right to do so. What did Obama say? Buy American!

[Follow the Follow Me]

The KA cadet scheme should be terminated. It is purely financially and politically motivated. The experience levels and limited capabilities are high risk.

If local pilots were to get expatriate benefits the cadet scheme would die overnight as it just is not economically viable.

Some of the incidents by senior local pilots are nothing short of spectacular. An expat would have been sacked. Again, it is political.

[Follow the Follow Me]

jjpoon

WTF are you on about?

Protect local labour? You are protected. Read the above.

Don't push it too far. You are worth what you are worth. Like it or not.

[Dragon69]

The whole argument is based on envy and jealousy. The principle facts stated on this thread by many are being overlooked by skewed reasoning to justify a demand.

If all expats were sent back from where they were employed, which was (and maybe still is) the master plan, so that only LEPs remained based in HKG, would you still pursue the expat allowances, or would you then be satisfied with your current package???

[Mullah Lite]

Morning EngineOut

Look, I know how hard it was to start from the bottom of the GA ladder, because I did the same thing. I took out a loan, worked my pants off getting my licences, then worked them off even more earning scraps doing odd jobs. I actually qualified for food stamps on four of my salaried years. And never in my previous posts have I said that that method of climbing the ladder was a walk in the park, i.e. I have never diminished the recognition of the efforts that anyone has put into their careers to get here.

But I'm sorry really cannot agree with you when you say that the cadetship is a relative walk in the park because for quite a few of the guys who do it, that's the their only shot of getting into the business. They don't come from places that have a GA/military system that they can break into and work whilst learning. And as such the pressure to succeed doing the cadetship factors very high. Though as you and I both know how it might have been a struggle to cope with working and learning at the same time, we were in an environment that offered choices to climb that ladder. That opportunity is not present in HKG. It's a one shot deal here. I can understand where you are coming from but I must beg to differ.

With regards to the grade C/B SO thing, I wasn't making a comparison to a cadet vs. a DE guy joining, I was just saying that there are similar discrepancies made in CX as fooey was pointing out at KA, though it's not a 6 year gap in qualification standard. That's all.

And yes, I do believe that the QL is a set standard for everyone across the board. Would a QL check be any easier for an ex cadet as opposed to a DESO? I've mentioned before in previous posts that there comes a time when everyone has to reach a benchmark standard here, or else the same argument could go for someone who has thousands of military fast jet instruction time should qualify for more than the average joiner in the company, at any level. But that's not the case, because he QLs the same as you do after passing all the right hurdles, and so do the LEPS. And he reeives his 4 bars the same as you do after even more hurdles, as do the LEPS.

With regards to the basings issue, I've already argued towards lifestyle parity on base being the focus of my advocation. My previous post to fooey was to highlight a point of disparity.

The Lite's out.....all other comments (no doubt repetitive) towards LEPS not having the right to equal career rewards, please refer to previous posts which I think make for at least some table discussion and not immediate dismissal. Here's another breadcrumb that I will throw in: CP 2 was a course designed to convert the flight engineers to pilot positions, the course for conversion paid for in its entirety by the company (so no financial risk, as some would say). They had as many hours flying aircraft (as opposed to operating, which none of us can touch because they are all walking encyclopaedias of systems operation) as a cadet did coming out of ADL. Are they as such cadets...and entitled to local scales? Or are their expat A scales still valid?

<fin>

[iceman50]

Mullah

You don't seem to get it do you. Cathay does not pay its expats like other expats in HKG, i.e we do NOT get the Housing Allowance or Education Allowance as a lump sum to spend as we see fit. Leases, receipts etc are all required, in your world my friend the ICAC and Company would be all over you like a rash and I think your next home would be courtesy of the Correctional Services Department.

Wake up! You are not being done down you have EXACTLY the same basic salary and flying pay!!!, Take away your green eyes.

[Flap10]

Kitsune,

Is it really fair for an expat to live abroad and not be able to invest. You really expect expats to return home after 15+ years with nothing to show for but a useless provident fund??

[Flap10]

Then please explain how a LOCAL (one with HKID no training and all flying paid for) can get EXPAT allowance by joining as a FTA instructor with CX? So suddenly by working FTA qualifies them to be an EXPAT now? Doesn't that fly in the face of your argument?


Agreed the above is a farce! But what is the argument here anyway?? Is it the fact that LEPs are bitter for not receiving expat allowances or for expats receiving expat allowances?? Which is it?? Just curious what most LEPs think.

[trevfly]

HK Fooey, I think signal8 was objecting to my use of gweilo as a racist term :p

Lets face it, any one who is caucasian ( a racist term?) is called a gweilo by the chinese (a racist term?) and expats alike. Now theres one for equality!

Gweilo is derogatory term, but we all seem to suffer it lightly when called by our own race.

[Flap10]

Kitsune,

Did you actually bother to read the article before posting the link???

[hekokimushi]

the LEPS are ONLY trying to fight for better Terms from the Company's (CX)'s pocket. even thou the CHANCES are SLIM to NONE because the company maintains a 10% of locals in the flight crew community. why create such a fuss? the point is, it is just the same for the SOs fighting for bypass pay, B scalers trying to get rid of A scalers beyond the age of 55... we are just doing the same thing aren't we? so why creating such an unnecessary debate and differentiation between "expat" and "local"? you guys too signed up for what u had in black and white. why screaming and shouting?

many of our STC across the fleets, were ex-BA cadet or miltary cadet, some form of other cadets too. so being a cadet isn't really a point, all the expenses may have been covered by you or by some other organisation, who cares, we all had to start somewhere, and all the cadetships weren't easy, and had to be completed with a limited timescale. Recalling from memory, correct me if im wrong, didn't cathay employed some BA cadets graduates in the early nineties?? if true, what kinda packages did they get? they had an option to leave, and did they??

h

added: it has also been discussed extensively nearly a decade ago:
http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/15967-chinese-ethnic-get-paid-less-cx.html
discriminate or not, you decide yourself.

[40Deg STH]

hekokimushi,


Finally someone with some sense. Well said!!
The sooner we all realise this, the sooner we maybe able to agree to pull together for a change.

WELL SAID hekokimushi:ok:

[quadspeed]

Removing all expat allowances will leave this airline where? The CX baseline pay in HK, after 16% tax, is still better than most European, North-American and Auzzie airlines offer. So would we still get the number of crews we need if we cut allowances?

The answer is a definitive yes, but we'd no longer be able to tempt the number of suitable, experiences guys with clean records from other airlines and airforces back home. In good times, the majority guys we'd get would be the rejects from the rest of the civilized world; guys who couldn't get hired with the majors back home and need to search the world like nomads trying to get hired by someone; anyone. Most of us wouldn't be here without the expat allowance is fair to say.

The wheels would certainly keep spinning for a while, but the 3rd floor knows the leverage of expat allowance; otherwise they'd have cut it long ago. I relocated from my friends and family and joined Cathay Pacific because the total package offered was better than my status quo. Which was already pretty good. And if a better package comes along some day, I'll pack my bags again.

Which is exactly what LEPs should do. Cadetships are a double-edged sword, no doubt about it. If you're old enough to receive one, then you're old enough to make that decision. Otherwise, go abroad, build your hours, and take your chances. More risk should provide more reward.

Now, is the price cadets pay for their sponsorship too high? Absolutely. It's insane. Half pay for an entire 35 year career? Yes, there should be a price to pay for cadetships, but it should also be reasonable. And on that point, the HKAOA should fight for LEPs.

[snoop doggy dog]

The local guys on this forum, expect to get all the allowances of expats, by alienating the majority of pilots in Hong Kong (Expats), whom they need the support of to get over the line? :hmm:

Travelling the wrong path guys. You are a very small group in the sceme of things and would have a very slim chance at best of acheiving a favourable outcome on your own. :=

Be grateful for what you have and seek the support of others, by supporting them.

My 2 cents worth.

[hekokimushi]

with all to respect.
What EXACTLY is it that IF (and this is a BIG IF as the chance is so slim anyway) the locals get the expats package?? what do you guys lose out?? NOTHING?!? so why being so sensitive/naive about it? as the stats clearly show the Local pilot group is the minority and is and always be kept and maintained to a 10% ratio, what is it bugging you guys?? i just do not understand. Are the LEPs a threat?? or would by granting the locals claiming the housing and educational allowance, effectively reducing your bonus?!? makes you less superior because there is no more difference in the allowance?!? or is it that, you then would feel unfair as all the experiences that you have brought to CX has been forgotten???

What is it guys? enlighten me please

out
h

[markontop]

So who is the person trying to link BA cadets with military cadets? Grow up. :mad: So some BA cadet can graduate and become a FA, yet the military one can be shot at.:ugh: Any other long bows you wish to draw?

[Flying Bagel]

Chill folks. It's not as complicated as it seems.

The merry go-around is just that, a merry go-around. LEP's won't support the AOA because they believe that the AOA does not support their housing issue.

Many expat AOA members believe that the LEP's are not worthy of support because they do not support the AOA, or believe outright that they don't deserve any sort of additional pay on top of what they're getting.

This will obviously never change. This "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" attitude exists on all levels, and on most issues. And of course, there will be no winners...

[TGIG]

The local guys on this forum, expect to get all the allowances of expats, by alienating the majority of pilots in Hong Kong (Expats), whom they need the support of to get over the line? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gifEr? If you went on strike about your conditions, by alienating the majority of people in Hong Kong (Locals), whom you need the support of to get over the line?

Good luck next time you get screwed:ok:

[C172Driver]

LEP's won't support the AOA because they believe that the AOA does not support their housing issue.
Just an observation- quote a lot of LEP's have joined the AOA in the last year or so. I know that 90% of the cadets on my course, before my course and the two courses after mine have joined. Recently graduated courses have already begun to sign up. It's good to see that most new-blood cadet courses have added their names to join up, so I think it's partially unfair to say that LEP's are not supporting the AOA, especially since we are going to see a push in the number of cadet courses.

[Shot Nancy]

Wasnt this an article about Locally employed chinese pilots in Dragonair?

Funny how all threads get hijacked by the usual suspects.

Of course as there is only one airline in Hong Kong.

[Midnight Oil]

I do not know what goes on in CX but if you find yourself going from flying piston bug smashers to sitting in command of a KA Airbus while still in your twenties then you should realise that this is not because you have more talent, skill or maturity than everyone else (no, really…).

The reason is because you made a Faustian pact. You jump the queue and get a job with KA on the basis that you have a HKG ID card. You do this with qualifications and experience that would otherwise cause your application to be thrown in the bin (most of the guys on my intake were 737 captains, the rest had extensive jet transport experience).

In return for the meteoric rise, you have to agree to a contract, which forgoes expat allowances.

When you make a deal with the devil you cannot complain about the terms later.

Oh, and while I am at it, I wonder how many of those “pseudo locals “ would perform if they had to go through the full KA cadet selection process and compete with the other local cadets on an equal basis? How many would be found lacking if they were held up to the same rigorous academic and skills test standards?

[Flying Bagel]

When you make a deal with the devil you cannot complain about the terms later.

I would disagree with that. If that's the case, why would anyone in their right mind want to argue for better terms and conditions?

I'm sure Diablo doesn't want to deal, but as in any line of work, signing on the dotted line doesn't mean you should stick your feet in quick dry concrete.

[geh065]

Lets forget asking for payrises then...after all, we all knew what the payscales were when we signed right? :ugh:

[hongkongfooey]

As with most other things that have been twisted around on this thread, a payrise is completely different to asking for a COS that you happily signed not to have in the 1st place, pay rises are generally to keep up with the cost of living and in some cases, as recently, changes in exchange rates. ( yes, I know the exchange rate is now considerably better, that was not forecast when we got the pay rise )

You are not going to get people listen to your side of the argument, when time and again HKID cards are mentioned whilst skipping over the fact that no matter how long we live here IT WILL NEVER BE OUR TRUE HOME. End of story.

Quadspeed is right, remove all the allowances and the pay will still be good enough to attract expat pilots.......just like the ones HK Airlines attracts.
Once again, I ask : DO YOU REALLY THINK KA/CX WOULD PAY US WHAT THEY DO IF THEY DID NOT HAVE TO ?
I can earn nearly double here than what I would earn as a skipper with an LCC back home, take away the housing and there Is no way in hell I, or a stack of other guys, would have moved here.

[Flying Bagel]

As with most other things that have been twisted around on this thread, a payrise is completely different to asking for a COS that you happily signed not to have in the 1st place, pay rises are generally to keep up with the cost of living and in some cases, as recently, changes in exchange rates.

It's just another excuse to not do anything but look after your own pot of gold.

Guys on bases getting bypass pay. Or guys fighting for extensions. Or DEFO's. Or ASL. Or B scale vs. A scale. It's all the same. Some of those are the same folks who will say cadets don't deserve one iota of extra allowances.

Or think about it this way. You came to this country simply because you chose not to stick it out as an S/O on that 'great Australian airline'. Or you simply couldn't get into that 'great Australian airline' and can't stand flying for LCC's, so you bent your arse backwards so you can come here. By your own volition.

So in that respect, you think a local lad without Australian residency can get into Qantas? Or BA, LH, etc. for that matter.

Opportunities for some are much more lopsided than others.

[ACMS]

What poppy cock you write.

Quite a lot of CX Crew CHOSE to come here over staying in their own country, they didn't even bother to apply to their own Airlines. CX has or rather was the Airline of choice for a lot.

Now bugger off.

[geh065]

As with most other things that have been twisted around on this thread, a payrise is completely different to asking for a COS that you happily signed not to have in the 1st place

Ok then, RA65. There are lots of other things about the COS we have tried to change over the years too and you know it.

[Flying Bagel]

What poppy cock you write.

Quite a lot of CX Crew CHOSE to come here over staying in their own country, they didn't even bother to apply to their own Airlines. CX has or rather was the Airline of choice for a lot.

Now bugger off.

Not sure if this is in response to what I wrote, but nevertheless, it is true what you say. A lot of people think CX is their first choice airline, for a multitude of reasons. I think is fair to say that a large proportion of those blokes are top notch people. And as you can imagine, that situation is the same for cadets, although their choices are much more limited than those who have other avenues to pursue.

But then, I see a lot of comments from a lot of folks pertaining to why cadets don't deserve housing, is that if it wasn't for the expatriate package, no one would ever come to this craphole. Then they chose to come here, sign on the dotted line, and complain about anything and everything that has to do with this company and this city. Really, you chose to come here, and signed on 'the dotted line', so please be a little bit more thick skinned. Otherwise, don't throw stones from glass houses.

So in the end, no one is ever satisfied with their lot in life. Either a) take it on the chin, and enjoy your job and life a little bit more, or b) realize then that everybody wants a better lifestyle, everyone's concerns are just as valid as yours. It's like the captain who's divorced four times asking a LEP F/O why he or she doesn't support RA65. Or guys who wanted compact rosters so they can commute home, even though many don't require such an option, and now have to live with free reserve.

Don't think LEP's are asking for a full housing package. But every little bit helps. I know of DESO's that are living in the Four Seasons Serviced Apartments. A LEP captain cannot even dream of paying that much rent to live anywhere close to that standard, even if the market today has dropped significantly from what it was before. Nevermind a F/O then.

And if experience merits a higher salary, some come with 2500 hours on mostly props, some come with 5000 hours on regional, some are ex-military with varying degrees of flying experience, and the select few who used to be captains on other airlines. But everyone does the same job, some better than others, with various levels of 'maturity'. Would the guy with 10k hours look at the guy with 2.5k hours and say "why are you being paid as much as I am?" Never seen it happen. Most will be satisfied that when the **** hits the fan, a satisfactory outcome occurs.

And I think this applies to everyone in this company, expat or otherwise.

[Flap10]

So where do you draw the line?

If the whole argument is based on expat are getting expat allowances then so should LEPs, what about all the based guys then, don't they have an equally valid argument to receive expat allowances, including 13 month pay, and maybe a special tax allowance seeing how taxes in based countries are twice as high then Hong Kong. Is this realistic though??

Someone asked why expats are so against LEPs receiving expat allowances, I think this is not the case. There are realistic and unrealistic demands. You will find should a based Captain post here demanding a similar special allowance to what an LEP Captain receives, he would be met with the same way.


I know of DESO's that are living in the Four Seasons Serviced Apartments.


Are you sure about that?? Last I checked even a studio apartment was above what an SO would be entitled to.

[Guava Tree]

In my opinion hekokimushi in his post #116 has carefully considered previous posts and has posted a very reasonable reply, which I believe is worth repeating. He says:

“What is it guys? enlighten me please
What EXACTLY is it that IF (and this is a BIG IF as the chance is so slim anyway) the locals get the expats package?? what do you guys lose out?? NOTHING?!? so why being so sensitive/naive about it? as the stats clearly show the Local pilot group is the minority and is and always be kept and maintained to a 10% ratio, what is it bugging you guys?? i just do not understand. Are the LEPs a threat?? or would by granting the locals claiming the housing and educational allowance, effectively reducing your bonus?!? makes you less superior because there is no more difference in the allowance?!? or is it that, you then would feel unfair as all the experiences that you have brought to CX has been forgotten???
What is it guys? enlighten me please”

So far there has been no enlightenment.

We all know that there is no dissent on Fragrant Harbour Forums that Hong Kong Local pilots are an almost insignificant minority, so any increase in their terms and conditions is hardly likely to bankrupt their employer.
Furthermore, not one poster has posted any concern about difficult conditions for his local employer.
So again, it should be said:
“What is it guys? Enlighten me please!”

Guava

[Cavallier]

Midnight Oil I think you are a bit unfair to post this comment:-

"Oh, and while I am at it, I wonder how many of those “pseudo locals “ would perform if they had to go through the full KA cadet selection process and compete with the other local cadets on an equal basis? How many would be found lacking if they were held up to the same rigorous academic and skills test standards?"

I am/was one of those "pseudo locals" who went through the whole KA direct entry process of two interviews and sim ride as well as complete the last 6 weeks of Adelaide and complete the entire FTC course upon my return. I am sure you are not doubting the abilities and standards of your expat colleagues who went throught exactly the same process bar Adelaide as us "pseuso locals" are you???


The Cav:cool:

[turnandburn]

From previous experience with employment law, once a person is qualified at same level and safe, irrespective of previous life, training etc, it only comes down to state law if you can have different remuneration you can, however if not you will have to rectify it. In Hong Kong employee rights are not that good compared to other jurisdictions. However if a law has been changed or reinterpreted LEP's do have the right to challenge it and get it corrected anyone's personal opinion becomes irrelevant as it can only be looked at with regard to law, not where you came from or how much jet time you had, or cadet program pilots are not a special case, we are just members of the public entitled to be protected by the law like anyone else( we are free men are we not, I know I am). Any other argument leads you down the track that slavery would still be legal the ultimate discrimination. The results will be interesting for both here and in the UK. If some one is found to be discriminated against you could then find people demanding A scale as that is the highest salary that is currently paid to some pilots. I don't profess to know all the details regarding both cases. You need to objectively look at it from the eyes of the law and remove opinion and heresay. I don't want to present an opinion that favours either side, however I don't believe any contract should be changed without agreement if one party is to be disadvantaged. These current situations are created by our employers lack of looking forward in regard to changes of law and to save money.

[Hoofharted]

Many posts and still some continue to chase their tale.

Everyone's monthly pay is the same. If you do not live at home you get a living away from home allowance i.e. an "expat" package. If you are living/working from home you do not get a living away from home / expat allowance.

People based at home in USA, AUS, UK, MARS, VENUS etc, do not get a living away from home / expat allowance. Quite simple really.

The question that is continually being ignored is why local's living at home in Hong Kong feel that they should be paid more than locals in every other country/base that the company has?

You can dress it up with discrimination, philosophy and socio-economic claptrap but the reality is really very simple. Home = no allowances, not at home = allowances. :ugh:

[Siu Mo To]

Perhaps all local pilots should roll on the floor and make high pitch wails at the airport to protest about not getting any housing allowance. :}

[hongkongfooey]

SMT...............:D;):}:ok:

only problem is, all they will get for that is a J class ticket on CX and some Asia miles :E

[12wheeler]

Many posts and still some continue to chase their tale.

Everyone's monthly pay is the same. If you do not live at home you get a living away from home allowance i.e. an "expat" package. If you are living/working from home you do not get a living away from home / expat allowance.

People based at home in USA, AUS, UK, MARS, VENUS etc, do not get a living away from home / expat allowance. Quite simple really.

The question that is continually being ignored is why local's living at home in Hong Kong feel that they should be paid more than locals in every other country/base that the company has?

You can dress it up with discrimination, philosophy and socio-economic claptrap but the reality is really very simple. Home = no allowances, not at home = allowances. :ugh:

Hmmm.... why is that UK based "local" Capt does not get any expat allowance then? He is living away from home, isn't he?:ugh:

[geh065]

Hmmm.... why is that UK based "local" Capt does not get any expat allowance then? He is living away from home, isn't he?

Added to this, the company is to shortly announce further opening of the cadet scheme to any nationality. Someone who has never stepped foot in Hong Kong or indeed out of their hometown will be able to apply. Of course, they will be on local terms.

So then where does the argument stand about keeping their native standards of living? If anything it almost looks like they are trying to further dilute the number of expats in CX.

On the other hand if they think they can pay expat cadets local terms and keep their loyalty to Hong Kong and Cathay with 15+ years to command they are in for a shock!

[hongkongfooey]

geh, you will still get killed in the stampede of wanabee's ( expat or otherwise ) that will take the cadet route rather than the " shell out 500k HKD " of you're own money route.
CXs local COS are as good or better than conditions in our own countries and whilst a cadetship is not a guarantee of a CX position, it is a win/win situation.....either you get a commercial licence for free or you get a commercial licence for free and a job with CX.
I would have taken it as a young lad, no question.

PS I think you will find 15 years to command ( I thought CX was around 10 ?? ) is pretty standard for a flag carrier, I can say QF is for sure.

[geh065]

fooey,

Absolutely I agree who in their right minds would turn down a chance to have an airline pay for all their training! However local terms compared to normal terms at many other airlines is not all that great and there are quite a few other airlines they could go to and get better pay. 15 years to command is not unusual amongst other big carriers you are right, however this is not the case if you start including the Middle East. Most of these guys and gals will be young ones and the chance to start with their own flag carriers, with comparable or in quite a few cases better conditions and live at home rather than in HK would be a great temptation. They will be at the start of long careers, so a few extra years for that command will not be as important to many of them as for expats who joined CX in their 30s.

[icecone]

There's one thing I don't understand
If the (non-cadet) expats with HKID are paid the local rates, why don't they just quit and work for another airline like SQ?