The VC 10 [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Groundloop

24th Feb 2009, 14:01

As mentioned the VC-10 was built for "hot and high" performance out of very short runways on BOAC's African network. Hence it had a very large wing for its size and very powerful engines. It was not, therefore, very economical to operate cf with a 707.

Unfortunately for Vickers the governments of these African countries, worried that 707s and DC-8 which could not land would overfly them, spent fortunes extending their runways hence removing the market for the VC-10.

The VC-10s economics were improved with the stretched Super but the drag from the large wing was always a fuel penalty.

Vickers/BACs marketing was not helped when Boeing obtained and published an internal BOAC document comparing the Super VC-10 and the 707 which discussed the higher fuel burn of the VC-10. Of course, Boeing did not publish the bit which followed which stated that, when operated on a route in competition with other airlines flying 707s and DC-8s, BOACs VC-10s carried, on average, 10-20 more pax - because pax wanted to fly on a VC-10. The increased load factor more than compensated for the extra fuel burn!

Herod

24th Feb 2009, 16:01

And who can forget the worderful ad. "Try a little VC-10-derness" ;)

Out Of Trim

24th Feb 2009, 16:32

Hi bossan,

Yes, I took the photos at Brooklands Museum, Weybridge UK.
Inside this aircraft.

http://firestorm.smugmug.com/photos/110367484_qBpmN-L.jpg

You can find a few more here (http://www.firestorm.smugmug.com/gallery/2131435_p8u97#110367075_WgVWm)

Cheers OOT. :ok:

Jig Peter

24th Feb 2009, 16:41

The Great British Overseas Airways Corporation was said to employ lots of "would-be" aircraft designers in its Future Equipment branch - and indeed, BOAC did like to have off-the-peg aircraft crafted to "Saville Row" standards (see their "input" on the Stratocruiser). Vickers did come up with a design which could meet the "non-stop to London from Entebbe" spec, but the stiff (but efficient) fully-slatted wing and the rear-mounted engines added weight - rear-mounted engines mean an "empty" CofG well aft, giving a short tail moment arm, which in turn requires a bigger fin and tailplane area.
Boeing, on the other hand, with its experience from the B-47 and B-52 of flexible wings mass-balanced by the engines, was able to bring in a lower empty weight, and with the Entebbe runway extended (some said paid for surreptitiously by US Government funds), were able to mount a successful counter-attack - seriously helped by the 707's non-recurring costs being largely paid for by the concurrent KC-135 programme.
BOAC's subsequent very public running down of the VC-10 (to justify its decision to go for the 707 after very fully specifying the VC-10) with its miserably weepy "it doesn't do what we want it to do" theme was also a body-blow to Vickers (see also the similar whingeing from BEA about the Trident which they too specified in great detail, with many a change in the process). Add to all this the British government's pressure for the aircraft-building industry to "rationalise" and you can understand why the Vickers bit of what was to become BAC didn't put up much of a fight (or any), naturally preferring to save what could be saved of relations with HMG and the "Overseas Airway".
A very sorry story, for the VC-10 is indeed one of those "looks right" machines - and another of the long series of serious errors by the Powers That Be in the saga of the decline of Britain's aircraft manufacturing industry during the 1960s. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

NutLoose

24th Feb 2009, 16:45

HerodAnd who can forget the worderful ad. "Try a little VC-10-derness" http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

And on that note

A Little VC10derness (http://www.vc10.net/)

Out Of Trim Nice pictures, I was one of the RAF lads that went down and applied a treatment to the outside of it in the late 80's and we delivered a set of blanks for it...... we even had a go around what was left of the track in an RAF Sherpa van at some insane angle on the banking LOL

Herod

24th Feb 2009, 21:04

Brilliant find NutLoose. Looks like a good site to spend a lot of time in.

Seat62K

26th Feb 2009, 09:09

The VC10 was the first aircraft I flew in, in 1966, and for that reason it has remained special. It is also very beautiful and appealing to look at. And the sound of the Conways....

b377

26th Feb 2009, 10:53

Any BOAC Super VC10 pilots out there flying between 1969 to mid 70s to BOG El Dorado?

If so I was one of the kids waiving to you from the passenger gate building terrace (alas now closed to public) .

What memories that brings - wishing I could get a ride while listening to the quartet of Conways start up and then see it depart on runway 13/31.

The LHW-BOG route was previously served by Britannias and later 707s.

BOAC in latter 70s handed the route over to Britich Caledonian DC10-30 but retook it mid 80s as British Airways after the BCal takeover I pressume with 747s.

chiglet

28th Feb 2009, 15:23

I was lucky enough to get a ride on a VC10/VC10/Tornado F3 Air to Air Refuelling sortie.....absolute Heaven :D:D

JamesA

28th Feb 2009, 16:44

The primary reason no British designed airliner has been a commercial success is because they have always been designed for the 'Empire routes' i.e England to Australia/ New Zealand and Africa. With the necessary stops along the way, range was never a problem. Unlike the U.S builders who only had to look a little further than coast to coast, to incorporate an Atlantic range crossing in the original design. Also, American companies could offer better financing terms and B.O.A.C was deeply in bed with the big three, it is easy to see how the British projects dropped out of the race.
I was told by a Boeing man, when they were having problems with the 727 they got a great deal of information from HS, and said they would never have given such detail, and freedom of the factory to anybody. I was carefully escorted around with my camera when I wanted to take photos of my company's aircraft during production.

Seat62K

28th Feb 2009, 19:06

Off topic, I know, but it's interesting to note that of the "classic" British 1960's/1970's jets (VC10, Trident, 1-11) it was only the latter which secured US orders, as did the (later) BAe 146 series, of course.
I would not have thought that range was that much of an issue, but I could be wrong. Standard VC10s were capable of crossing the Atlantic (I flew in one between London and Philadelphia in 1970) let alone Super VC10s. I do recognise that US carriers may have wanted to operate nonstop to places like Rome but I seem to remember that much transAtlantic traffic by Pan Am and TWA was routed via Heathrow. BOAC didn't even serve cities like Detroit nonstop from the UK, presumably partly because traffic on such routes was so thin that it was amalgamated with that to another city. [It's a long time ago and my memory may not have served me well!]
P.S. It has just struck me that BOAC's use of Standard VC10s on the Atlantic might have been forced on the airline as a response to its not being able to introduce the 747 in May, 1970, as planned. The Philadelphia route was, I think, started that year - presumably the idea was to use Supers released by the use of 747s on routes such as LHR-JFK. This must have led to BOAC experiencing a capacity shortage in the summer of 1970. Does anyone know if my speculation is accurate?

Dysag

28th Feb 2009, 20:33

I know more about the 1-11 than the VC-10. The reason the One-Eleven was an (early) success was that it was designed for the world market and not specifically for the UK flag carrier. It was well established before BEA placed an order.

Three factors helped its demise:

1) the RR Spey engine was noisy and unreliable and American Airlines was foolish not to select the P&W JT8-D, which BAC offered. From then on the Spey was the only fit.

2) BAC treated it as a cash cow and didn't put in the investment necessary to compete with the rapidly advancing DC-9 and 737.

3) Once the DC-9 & 737 were in service, the US giants had the sales (& political) resources BAC couldn't match.

old,not bold

1st Mar 2009, 10:29

No apologies; well, just a small one, maybe, for posting this again......

It brings the sound of the Conways back......

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/picshooter/VC10.jpg

b377

1st Mar 2009, 14:38

The VC10 was a good try ... but it killed British aviation. A plane designed by commitee to meet the short term needs of a airline.

As to it being a good looking airplane its a matter of opinion, the 707 is to me the best looking of all the first generation jets, period.

If it haddn't been for goverment pressure BOAC would have dumped all VC10s in favour of 707s, luckly, from a PR point of view, the 747 came along.

Brain Potter

1st Mar 2009, 19:44

If it haddn't been for goverment pressure BOAC would have dumped all VC10s in favour of 707s

There is an alternative school of thought that ascribes BOACs 'enthusiasm' for the 707 and it's undermining of the VC10 as being down to corruption.

Whatever the attributes of the aircraft, the political aspect of the VC10 was yet another sorry episode in the history of British aircraft industry post-WW2. The manufacturer and the primary customer were both state-owned and consequently the government should have either cancelled the aircraft or compelled the airline to support it properly. Neither company were profitable but both were seen as important to national interests. It is crazy that the government were subsidizing one of it's companies to build the aircraft whilst allowing another to purchase a rival foreign product.

Dysag

1st Mar 2009, 19:57

Where did you get the idea that Vickers or British Aircraft Corporation was state owned? It never was.

ICT_SLB

2nd Mar 2009, 02:22

Dysag,
There was another reason that I was told with some force by a BEA pilot - the 737 could carry another four tons of cargo over the 1-11 500 Series - which wasn't helped by the huge amount of Smiths Autopilot in the front of the Forward Freight Bay.

The good looking design heritage continues to fly to this day. The original Canadair Challenger was designed with a large contribution by ex-Vickers BAC 1-11 engineers (even down to the wire numbering system) and that's a direct forebear of the CRJ-1000 100-seater we're testing today.

Check out the distinctly Vickers look here:
http://www.pprune.org/flight-testing/341912-crj-1000-maiden-flight.html

tornadoken

2nd Mar 2009, 09:13

BP: that "school" is misguided. Yes, it was odd that while the State required BOAC to curb its losses, so appointed Sir Giles Guthrie to run it like a proper business, not a branch of the industrial civil service, it concurrently poured money into the aircraft industry to stimulate exports/$ import substitution. That included £10.2Mn. of VC10 £50Mn. R&D and capital for BOAC's May,57 order for 35. The case by BOAC for subsidy (£30Mn. by ’67) of its operating cost increment over 707-320B/C was scrutinised in Committees numerous; too many sceptics to buy off with brown envelopes. The design was driven for hot-and-high Empire ports; vendor items were to be £, not $-denominated, so step forward assorted Jenny and Piles...hopeless at Product Support and much more besides. On 1st. flight 29 June,62 Flight judged it would hold 707 sales (then 550) to just 200 more: “demand has been filled.” 1,010 were built to 1994, because of Cents per Available Seat Mile. Greek to Brits.

CNH

2nd Mar 2009, 11:09

Another of the fallacies driving British aircraft design: 'hot and high'. The old 'Empire' route was never going to earn much revenue compared with New York/London. It's reminiscent of the designs for hypersonics which crop up even today: 'London to Sydney in six hours', or whatever. Providing there's a market for Sydney-London ...

Dysag

2nd Mar 2009, 12:05

Two important lessons which the surviving European industry is now well aware of:

1) don't design for infrastructure constraints. Concrete costs less than planes and will get there first.

2) listen to your airline customer BUT NOT TOO MUCH. He can change his operation in 3 years but the manufacturer is stuck with the product.

b377

2nd Mar 2009, 12:08

... because of Cents per Available Seat Mile. Greek to Brits.

From all the foregoing, bad business decisions killed the British a/c industry. The British Empire was built on Victorian engineering legacy (albeit a bit over engineered at times). Today engineering has been relegated to third place turning this country to the so called 'service' industries i.e. read insurance and banking. So it turned away from what it was good at to what is was bad at. Paradox?

Did I hear banks? Well just read the papers ...should the UK turn back to engineering? Of course not engineering is for dirty developing countries whose workforces can be paid a pittance while City fat rats drink champain and get ever fatter. We need to invent a better rat trap and get back to basics.

diddy1234

2nd Mar 2009, 12:31

b377, couldn't agree more

One aspect that this country is very good at is 'innovation'.

shame we have terrible management and sales (generally speaking).

Seat62K

3rd Mar 2009, 07:30

Off topic, admittedly, but I was appalled when BAE Systems sold its stake in Airbus. What long-term chance is there that Airbus wings will continue to be made in the UK? The weakness of the pound against the euro - if it becomes chronic - might help retain this work but I suspect that this decision will, in hindsight, be seen as contributing further to the decline of the UK civil aerospace industry.

Brain Potter

3rd Mar 2009, 10:06

Dysag,

My apologies. I knew that Vickers was not state-owned but I thought that BAC had an element of state-ownership. A little research show that I am wrong. However, the British aircraft industry of the post-war era may as well have been state owned as it fortunes were inextricably linked with the diktats of the Ministry of Supply. As to my original point, it somehow seems even worse that the state-owned airline was allowed to buy the rival product whilst the government was heavily funding a private company to build the VC10.

I think that some of these decisions are very difficult to judge with hindsight, as it is difficult to appreciate quite how much emphasis that generation placed on national prestige; something that modern (British) governments and companies are not interested in.

CNH

3rd Mar 2009, 11:34

And 'national prestige' brought us Concorde: wonderful technical achievement, financial disaster.

Rainboe

3rd Mar 2009, 12:00

Off topic, admittedly, but I was appalled when BAE Systems sold its stake in Airbus. What long-term chance is there that Airbus wings will continue to be made in the UK?

I still find this one hard to follow, but what chance wing production will even go to Europe? Airbus wings are going to be built in China. Airbuses will probably all be built in China in 10 years! What I still find frightening is, what is Europe and America going to do to pay their way in the modern world? Cars, aeroplanes, ships....all migrating East. It's scary. What we will see is a long term decline of Dollars and Euros to compensate for a Europewide industry rust belt.

Dysag

3rd Mar 2009, 12:58

Long term, the Europeans and Americans will certainly have a lower relative standard of living than before, compared with the Chinese etc.

What can we do to slow the decline? Invest massively in research, I think, and strive to stay ahead in all aspects of design. Up to now lots of countries can build wings. Not so many can design advanced ones.

I'm afraid the UK industry gave away half its right to build Airbus wings by screwing up the A340-600 wing, trying to do it on the cheap by keeping a lot of the 1990 design inside. It was far too heavy, and hastened the demise of the A340.

Post-A380, there will be no more automatic awarding of Airbus wings to the UK.

archieraf

3rd Mar 2009, 13:34

Some VC10 pictures for you to enjoy :)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/archieraf/vc10.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/archieraf/vc101.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/archieraf/vc102.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/archieraf/vc103.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/archieraf/vc104.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h22/archieraf/vc105.jpg

philbky

3rd Mar 2009, 14:28

Brian Potter said:

"I knew that Vickers was not state-owned but I thought that BAC had an element of state-ownership."

You were obviously confusing state ownership,with massive state interference.:D

Dysag

3rd Mar 2009, 16:11

Yep, you can't get more massive state interference than having your company nationalised into British Aerospace!

bossan

4th Mar 2009, 07:33

I would like to thank everybody for their replies and photographs, I truly appreciate them.

However, I got very litle response on my question " how it was to fly those planes " after all, the design was relatively new, heavy rear mounted engines, T tail, ect.
Was there much of a learning curve ?

Rainboe, you have the VC on your CV :), care to give it a shot ?

Thanks

Jhieminga

4th Mar 2009, 08:03

From various sources I've picked up that the VC10 was deemed easier to fly than the 707. Students who had problems transferring to a large four-engined airliner were often assigned to the VC10 as that would prove a gentler introduction to large aircraft flight dynamics.
There is an account of an 'interesting' flight on my website here: Fun and Games with Harold (http://www.vc10.net/Memories/funandgames.html) that gives an idea of some of its characteristics (not that much but it's interesting reading anyway).
I too would like to hear more views on this.

Rainboe

4th Mar 2009, 09:17

I spent 6 1/2 years on BOAC VC10s at the start of my career from 1971. My very first impression after graduating from flying college and the Beechcraft Baron was that the step from Cherokees to Barons was more than the step from the Baron to the VC10. It was utterly viceless. Engine out was easy. The one time is was fairly critical was flap retraction at very high gross weight when you had about a 6 knot spread between minimum and maximum speeds as the flaps retracted. The undercarriage was delightfully soft, the noise levels were minimal, the flight deck fairly roomy. The F/E panel ws very complicated- the aircon/pressurisation panel seemed frightening. Beautiful plane- we were very proud of it. I did get a tad concerned at the mysterious vibration/shaking that used to set in during climb and descent, and eventually carried on during lower cruise, but I gather it was due to something making the 'beavers tale' vibrate. The Conways were prone to surging at altitude limits, they quite regularly used to 'let one go', which was tremendoulsy startling for those in the rear galley. You could count to 10 and they would burst onto the flight deck very alarmed! It would sound like a canon going off 6 feet away! The girls would lose their knicker elastic! The After Start checklist had a full check of the tailplane trim. Some Captains used to do it too early before full hydraulic pressure was established and the vibration from the screwjack could be felt all over the plane. I used to cringe because I thought the most likely failure would be the tailplane screwjack trim system. But it's done OK for 32 years since!

I still find it hard to believe in this day and age we used to set off across the Atlantic with Doppler and Loran and Astro, though we got INS from about 1974 onwards. I recall the pilot-nav once leaning forward and winding 50miles left of track onto the Doppler and saying 'fly that off please'. During the rest of the flight, he would start changing it progressively 10R, 8R, 15R.... Quite what our actual tracks were across the Atlantic were best not known! All very mysterious- navigation was a 'black' art at the time.

A wonderful time. BOAC had a wonderful young attractive cabin crew. We were showing the flag around the world. We even used to do transpacific flights via Honolulu and Fiji. It was the golden age, even if the airline corporations were losing a stack of money! We felt it our duty to show the flag around the world and provide a 'British' means of getting our people to and from the rest of the world to mix with Johnny Foreigner! I thought I'd gone to heaven! Pay wasn't much though! But the sight of a VC10 coming into an airport early in the morning for turnaround was stirring. Did ever an aeroplane look so good as BOAC's blue with the big gold speedbird on that gorgeous tail? How could they get rid of that for the garrish various BA red white and blue?

I would say the aeroplane always felt it was carved out of solid steel. The major checks seemed to be problem free whereas our 707s apparently needed more extensive and expensive work. It never had problems with door failures or other defects. There was a spell of flaps coming off, but it was easily handled (the flaps are 5 enormous sections on each side). The flaps were actually very unsophisticated. They were one piece and simply moved backwards and down, no split sections. Leading edge devices were excellent- all slats. All flying controls had independent hydraulic actuation. In bad turbulence, it was not unusual to see all low pressure lights on together- a bit disconcerting until you were used to it! The F/E had his own throttles. When kids came up, it was fun to get them to talk to the throttles and tell them to go forward or back one by one. The look on their face when they did it was lovely- the F/E stiffling a grin as he moved his. We had a tubby boy standing there with a headset on his head listening to the radio (when we got fed up with making conversation). There was a gauge on the F/E panel to align engine speed, showing Nos 2,3,4 in relation to No1. He leaned over and tapped the F/E on the shoulder and said cooly 'No3 is a bit slow!'. I saw the F/E 'bristle'- the little tyke didn't even know what it was for!

Funny stories abounded. The periscope sextant mount was a vacuum cleaner size hole you could open with a pull cord in the roof of the flight deck. Legend had it one genius decided to bring a vacuum hose and attach it, and open the valve and do some cleaning on the flight deck! It allegedly went berserk violently flying around the cockpit with everybody ducking. There was a periscope hole at the back in the roof for studying the engines and tail (with little folding steps), and another in the electronic bay underneath the fuselage to study the landing gear. There was a viewer in the electronics bay to see the nose landing gear which had a specially polished rivet- the fabled 'golden rivet' that some naughty F/Es used to make something of!

It paid for its superb build quality with a much higher empty weight than the 707. This limited its range in comparison making Pacific flights rather 'long' for it. Strangely enough when I transferred to the 747-100 next, there were design aspects I thought came off the VC10- I think some of the designers ended up at Boeing as British development wound down in the 60s.

I shall wheel myself back into the cupboard now! Nice trip on memory lane with the most beautiful aeroplane ever to fly!

bossan

4th Mar 2009, 11:06

Nice one Rainboe; thanks

You took quite an efford; goes to show that you love your job.

Sincerely hope that it got your blood pressure a bit down after all that gargage on the Turkish crash.

Should you ever get lost into Singapore, pm me and lets have a beer.

Cheers

Dan Winterland

4th Mar 2009, 13:49

"I transferred to the 747-100 next, there were design aspects I thought came off the VC10- I think some of the designers ended up at Boeing as British development wound down in the 60s."

You are correct. I went from the VC10 to the 747 as well and had the same idea. I knew one of the VC10 design team who became a curator at Brooklands. He confirmed that when some of the design team were let go from Vickers (BAC), they went to Seattle. The electrical system on the 747 is a direct lift from the VC10, except that on the 747, busbars sync was 1 to 2 and 3 to 4 whereas on the 10 it was 1 to 3 and 2 to 4.

diddy1234

4th Mar 2009, 14:14

So are Boeing thieving b***** or did Vickers (BAC) just do a good design that Boeing has followed ?

I cant help think that Boeing stole the lime-light after they had seen the DeHavilland Trident then went on to make the 727 and as they say the rest is history ..........

philbky

4th Mar 2009, 18:45

In the case of the Trident, a Boeing team was invited around the Hatfield facility and were shown the Medway powered Trident project that BEA abandoned and the inferior Spey powered Trident which was pretty much complete.

It was a no brainer for the lads from Seattle who went away and came up with the 727.

Rainboe

4th Mar 2009, 22:36

So are Boeing thieving b***** or did Vickers (BAC) just do a good design that Boeing has followed ?
I'd look at it as Boeing had the emminent good sense to grab the best designers in the world and give them jobs! Couple their influence (having been brought up on Spits, Mossies, Comets, Vulcans etc), and combine it with the hard headed and realistic American economic approach, and you produce a brilliant financial winner like the 747 100/200, which after its further iteration to the -400 became THE world beater (and outstandingly good looking to boot!) for 30 years.

As for the Trident. Yes. A political committee aeroplane, a throwback to the days when central government politicians ran EVERYTHING 'for the good of the economy'. Did a great job! Blue Streak, TSR2, Phantom, P1127, Belfast, Trident....culminating in the ....Nimrod Early Warning! We made some good ones, but when they were bad..............

diddy1234

4th Mar 2009, 23:10

philbky, why were the Boeing team invited around DeHavillands ?

Maybe I don't understand, but it would appear that yet again the British economy gives technological ideas and developments to America for nothing !

Takes for example the jet engine, miles 52 and radar, so what did Britain gain by giving away technology ?

As for Staff released from Vickers, I can understand the staff moving to Seattle to work on the 747, Our industry was dying / sorry amalgamating.

The sales market was always going to be bigger in America (and forward thinking in terms of different markets).

BEagle

5th Mar 2009, 07:11

Rainboe wrote:

A wonderful time. BOAC had a wonderful young attractive cabin crew.

Including this lovely lady:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/RozHanby.jpg

Roz Hanby. Who can still fit into her cabin crew uniform even today!!

Rainboe

5th Mar 2009, 07:28

Yes, we all remember Roz! A lovely personality lady. Somehow under Ayling, the personal (and human) touch like that became anathema whilst that bizarre country solicitor worked out a succession of bizarre ideas of running one of the world's major airlines into one of the world's not-quite major airlines. Whatever became of Roz? She carried the job off well and still had a big spark of fun.

BEagle

5th Mar 2009, 07:40

A couple of years ago she was the school nurse at a junior school in Salisbury - see: http://www.leaden-hall.com/international_files/internationalday.pdf

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg
My god-daughter attended that school - I don't know whether Nurse Roz was there at the time, wish I had though!

Back to the VC10 - I trust that Boeing didn't copy the crazy load distribution of the VC10K with all attitude systems connected to the no.s 1 & 3 busbars, due to the HDU creating massive load spikes on the no.s 2 & 4 busbars when started (whoever certificated a 'direct on line start' of a polyphase AC motor??)......

'They' said you would never have a double bus fail of the no.s 1 & 3... 'They' were wrong as it happened to me on an Air Test of ZA141 (a.k.a. 'The Lizard') which had been lovingly preserved in open storage at St Athan :hmm: and was then urgently needed for one of nuLabor's 'bring a bottle' wars.

Lots of fail flags and pretty red lights, no attitude systems, quite a few PCUs failing and the cabin slowly rising.....

We'd just shut down no. 3 engine as art of the schedule, the no. 1 gennie system couldn't take the load and went off line - but not cleanly enough, so with a slowly decaying voltage on the no.s 1 & 3 busbars, the SSB thought 'bugger that' and went crossline as the no. 1 gennie finally GCR'd itself. As did the other BTB for the no. 2 and no. 4 busbars. After a few minutes explaining to ATC that we might infringe an airway as we weren't able to turn, we restarted no. 3 engine and recovered everything as the 1 & 3 BTB was happy to tie the no.s 1 & 3 busbars.

And then we went home! The cause was corrosion in the no. 1 alternator regulation system, thanks to months of Welsh weather.

Good job I hadn't dropped the ELRAT; when I tested it a few days later it filled the aircraft with smoke because its regulation system had also become corroded during its period in storage. Just to make things more interesting, the rear smoke detector was later found to be faulty after we'd dumped the jet into the hands of the maintainers.

Fun days though!

Jhieminga

5th Mar 2009, 08:24

philbky, why were the Boeing team invited around DeHavillands ?
After the crash of the BAC 1-11 prototype due to deep stall Vickers/BAC were quite concerned that other designers would unknowingly get themselves in the same situation with a T-tailed airliner. Because of this they shared a lot of information with both American and other British companies, including visits of designers and test pilots to American firms. Perhaps this Boeing visit to DeHavillands was somehow a part of this program, if so then the purpose of this visit was safety, to prevent another deep stall accident with a T-tailed airliner.

diddy1234

5th Mar 2009, 08:44

Jhieminga, That would explain why other aircraft (DC-9, 727 etc) never had the same development problems !

If the western countries were sharing information like this for reasons of safety then why were there never deep stall issues with the Russian Ilyushin Il-62 ?

Experiencing deep stall for any one would be terrifying !

tornadoken

5th Mar 2009, 08:45

#33, Dysag: screwing up the A340-600 wing, trying to do it on the cheap by keeping a lot of the 1990 design inside. It was far too heavy
Unfair, I suggest. Airbus Industrie has a Committee/consensus approach to decision-making. BAe., a UK plc, raised much of the money on market terms to launch A330/340-200 wing design in June,1987, to a Spec. accepted by the team, inc. DASA (a for-profit business) and Aerospatiale (a State welfare/"National Interest" employer). In February,1998 BAe., a UK plc, raised much...terms to launch A340-500/600 wing to a Spec...inc (from 2000: EADS, a for-profit business with State Directors in a subordinate role). If anyone screwed up, it was the team. But it cost us, UK taxpayer, £123Mn. in Launch Aid contribution merely for the adapted, 1987-derived -600 wing: whatever would have been the cost, and Certification timescale, for an all-new wing? Unrecoverable, I submit, from the niche target market. AI chose a sub-optimal design over no design. See: 777SP, L.1011-500, MD11.

philbky

5th Mar 2009, 08:53

That visit was years later and to a different manufacturere - BAC rather than Hawker Siddeley controlled Hatfield.

There are similarities however as Boeing had fostered a relationship with de Havilland in the wake of the Comet fuselage problems and de Havilland had correctly shared its knowledge gained through the disasters with the wider aviation world.

Boeing had offered the B720 to airlines in the US but most indicated that they wanted something smaller, with good short field performance but with range. Douglas had signed an agreement with Sud Aviation to market the Caravelle in the US and it may well have been that Boeing were looking for a similar deal on the Trident as they perceived the aircraft to be well ahead of their project (it was) and were concerned that it would breach the US market because, at the time, Eastern, American and TWA were all interested in a 3 engine layout and a high performance wing.

Boeing had done a great deal of work on various wing possibilities and expressed interest in the Trident wing. They were shown the two distinctly different Trident designs and, rightly, decided that the T tail, three engined layout with Medway engines and originally specified wing was the way to follow.

Having either failed to reach a marketing agreement re the Trident (or decided not to in the light of what they had been shown) they went away and continued discussions with the US carriers and in June 1959 commenced work on the design that was announced in December 1960 as the 727.

Meanwhile the much bastardised and hobbled committee/BEA produced Trident 1 first flew on January 9 1962 and failed to attract any US interest. Boeing flew the 727 on February 9 1963 having caught up, partly due to being able to use a number of common parts from the 707/720 and a great deal of expertise in assembling large airliners quickly gained from those and the KC135 programmes.

WHBM

5th Mar 2009, 08:59

If the western countries were sharing information like this for reasons of safety then why were there never deep stall issues with the Russian Ilyushin Il-62 ?
The Russians did unfortunately experience a deep stall with a Pulkovo Airlines Tu154 only a couple of years ago, over Ukraine, trying to climb up over a thunderstorm in the cruise. Classic deep stall result, coming down to the ground in an uncontrollable wings-level attitude. It's basic physics.

Meanwhile the UK experiences led to a requirement to fit stick pushers on T-tail aircraft, but the 727 was never so fitted so I wonder how much of the "sharing safety" atually happened. When the first UK-registered 727s came secondhand to Dan-Air, many years after their introduction, they had to be expensively modified to fit such a device.

philbky

5th Mar 2009, 09:18

Other aircraft that have had deep stall accidents are the TU-134, the Trident 1 and the Canadair CL600 but the phenomenon was first linked to T tail aircraft with the crash of HP Victor B Mk2 XL159 on March 23 1962 at Stubton in Lincolnshire.

The unresolved cause of the first 727 crash in Chicago on 16.08.65 has been cited as a possible deep stall accident and the crash at Salt Lake City on 11.11.65, whilst not a deep stall, was partly attributed to the response of the T tail design to a high sink rate and sluggish engine response.

tornadoken

5th Mar 2009, 16:22

Flight, 16/12/60: "first details of the Boeing 727. This aircraft is in all major respects a carbon copy of the D.H.121 Trident. Last February (having bought DH, 17/12/59, HSAL's) Sir Roy Dobson and Sir Aubrey Burke visited Boeing to discuss, among other things, collaboration on the D.H.121. Boeing were interested, and four senior DH engineers, including the chief designer Mr C. T.Wilkins and chief technician Mr. D. R. Newman, went to Seattle also. Boeing engineers later visited Hatfield, and other exchanges followed.
(Roger Bacon) would not blame DH for feeling...disenchanted with the "collaboration" that has resulted. I do not know whether they feel sore or not: I think they have been in the game long enough to have few illusions left to be shattered. But I think I know one thing : henceforth, whenever the Minister exhorts DH—or anyone else in our industry—to collaborate with a foreign industry, he will be reminded of what happened when we tried it with the Trident."

That is the origin of the perception that Boeing lifted the Trident. As philbky says, Medway/727 was in hand by mid-59, as a logical adaptation of 707/720. For the owners of Renton and Wichita, a Hatfield shop visit would add nothing to corporate knowledge; the ex-DH Lofting Office would at that time have little to delight them. HSAL's intent was collaboration, to win US customers - lessons from Comet 3/PAA were that the pond was a very effective moat. One writer (can't now find it) has implied that the Knights' deal-making foundered.

philbky

5th Mar 2009, 17:44

Thanks Tornadoken for digging out those quotes.

As ever with events not open to too much public scrutiny at the time and are now around 50 years ago, there are some unresolved matters.

According to a senior manager who I met at Hatfield in the very early 1970s, Boeing were talking to de Havilland (and thought they would eventually be dealing with Airco - the company set up to build the Trident prior to the forced marriages which set up BAC and HS) around the time they were starting work on the initial 727 design in early 1959. These talks were about a similar deal to that between Sud Aviation and Douglas which was initialed at that time and was public knowledge (the final deal was eventually signed in February 1960 and included an agreement for Douglas to build the proposed Caravelle 7).

He went on to state that Boeing thought they were talking about the Medway engined aircraft but when they arrived at Hatfield they were shocked to see how much the BEA changes to the design of the Trident had weakened the saleability - which became apparent to the industry when BEA eventually unveiled its order and spec on August 8 1959.

If that is true, the visit of Dobson and Burke in February 1960 was a futile exercise and the Boeing return visits were probably just to see how the Trident was coming along - perhaps with half an eye on the autoland potential and any other gleanings about what was basically a ground breaking planform.

Whatever else, Boeing's view of the BEA spec confirmed their belief in the Medway engined sized aircraft - a belief that history vindicated.

Whilst the Comet 3 had not sold in the US the Britannia would have had some success but for the problems with the Proteus and the Viscount certainly dented Convair 440 sales, so the Atlantic was not totally unbreachable.

Golf Charlie Charlie

5th Mar 2009, 20:43

Not sure about this, but I have read (I think on pprune actually) that the first deep stalls go as far back as the Javelin, which suffered one or two such events further back, ie. in the 1950s.

tornadoken

5th Mar 2009, 20:52

pb: I like that: it's better than the implication that Burke/Dobson mishandled a negotiation, or that Boeing intended/and HSAL succumbed to deception - lifting UK "secrets". Cast our minds back to the way we were as 1959 unfolded. BEAC's passengers had only gained access to any real money in 1958 - previously, currency controls had been rigid, to serve businessmen hunting exports. We were then granted £50 p.person p.a - transactions entered in your passport. All BEAC's routes were a) monopoly protected - poor souls like Dan could only fly where BEAC chose not to go, like Lux; and b) revenue-pooled with the reciprocal carrier, say AF. Cosy cartel, no competition, in service, frequency or fare. So, Spey-size would do fine, even seen as capacity-at-risk.

Now, compare and contrast with US domestic: capacity/frequency is King. Clearly, Medway-size. So Pratt invented JT8D just at Boeing Board 727 Project Launch. RR could not/would not credibly do Spey+Medway concurrently, so settled for the safely-funded BEAC job...and were evermore disdainful of UK civil aeronauts, "worshipping at the American shrine", yearning for, in March,1968 winning a US baseline (L.1011).

tornadoken

6th Mar 2009, 10:32

When BUA launched BAC 1-11, May,1961, Flight carried ads by Sud, a photo of a small boy, mouth agape, eyes staring in horror at an aircraft model; the caption was: "Oohh! ils ont copies Caravelle!" (= "carbon copy").
Laws of dynamics dictate: compatible input = compatible output. So: if you want a bizjet with low airstairs, you get rear-power/T-tail. Not the same as copying Learjet. See 2 wives: one, screech, scratch; t'other warmly responsive, low maintenance. Same exterior dictated by fashion.

CNH

6th Mar 2009, 11:28

I remember hearing Dick Stratton (ex-Saunders Roe) talking about the SR53. Apparently a Javelin went into a deep stall and crashed on the Isle of Wight in the late 50s. Maurice Brennan, the SR53 designer, was held up in the resultant traffic jam, and went into the Cowes works the next day saying they had to put an anti-stall device on the SR53. If they were flying the SR53 then this dates it to 1957-59. As far as I can remember, this was some sort of pyrotechnic designed to lift the tail in the event of such a stall.

Dysag

6th Mar 2009, 12:29

Sud Aviation apparently never realised that a two-crew cockpit was the way of the future.

This, and the modernised, redundant, systems that went with it was the One-Eleven's biggest contribution to aircraft design.

philbky

6th Mar 2009, 12:36

Regarding deep stall, the Victor accident is widely regarded in a number of reports and publications as the first time the phenomenon was recorded as such but, with a number of T tail designs operating in service or as prototypes well before the accident, it would seem unlikely that the situation hadn't arisen previously and had either gone unrecognised or been masked by other factors.

XV490

6th Mar 2009, 16:10

A wonderful time. BOAC had a wonderful young attractive cabin crew.Anyone remember a stewardess called Angela W (my big sister, and much better-looking than I) on BOAC VC10 (and 707) cabin crew circa 1970? She's 61 now, and flew at a time when BOAC crews enjoyed long stopovers in some pretty exotic locations.

Anyone else recall the hospitality in, for example, Abu Dhabi? BOAC crews seem to have had a similar status to senior British diplomats then - and were expected to behave accordingly. I bet there are some great stories to be told from those days; and earlier...

Apologies for slight thread creep.

old,not bold

8th Mar 2009, 14:36

Creeping further away from the thread, since you mention it, I had a passing acquaintance with the administration of BOAC/BA crew accommodation in the Gulf, AUH even, at that time........

IIRC, there was an absolute requirement that the accommodation for the Flight Deck had to be in a more expensive hotel than the Cabin Staff, and The Captain had to have a better room (usually a suite) than the FO and FE. I wouldn't be surprised in the FO needed a better room than the FE, but I do not remember that being the case.

So we put the Flight Deck into a very, very expensive but dreadful hotel, and the Cabin into a slightly less expensive but infinitely better one. There's a revolutionary in all of us.

That stopped eventually, and the whole crew was allowed to use the same hotel. The price was higher than that paid by anyone else, to cover the cost of items stolen from the rooms. They never remonstrated; they just kept a list of who stole what and charged an averaged add-on to pay for it. This list was always produced when contract renewal time came round. The company was happy to pay the additional cost, to avoid trouble.

Only certain people did this; but the inventory against some of the names, over a 2 - 3 years period, was impressive. Quite a few houses in the Camberley region must have benefited.

I recall that the items included a 5 ft high mirror (carefully unscrewed from the wall by a Captain who took the screws as well), a complete ceiling fan, a coffee table, hair-dryers, lots of table lamps, towels, bedding, pillows, crockery and so on.

Rainboe

8th Mar 2009, 20:57

So we put the Flight Deck into a very, very expensive but dreadful hotel, and the Cabin into a slightly less expensive but infinitely better one. There's a revolutionary in all of us.
Well it sounds fun, but in fact all pilot crew hotels were subject to BALPA inspection. Their remit was to check hotels for safety features and adequacy within the budget available. For the nearly 40 years of my tenure, we were happy to rely on BALPA's decision. More than alleged 'quality' was considered- location, local facilities, dining and convenience were all balanced. There was a dedicated BA BALPA department for this. Often it was preferable to stay at different hotels than the crew- removal of hotel facilities was not usually a pilot thing and it was not conducive to a good relationship with the hotel. Some of the stories are fun, but frankly I don't believe them! A 5' mirror, coffee table? Sounds more like 'an inside job' to me! I do know that dressing gowns, towels and ash trays could be removed- it's a simple matter to tell the airline and wait for the crew on arrival! Not something you will tend to find career minded pilots doing. Nice stories, but.......

Captain Airclues

8th Mar 2009, 21:17

My memories don't tie up with your recollections old,not bold. Can you imagine bringing a ceiling fan, or coffee table, down to the lobby for pick-up? As Rainboe says, nice story but.....
I can only remember staying with the cabin crew at the Gulf stations. In Bahrain we stayed at the old Imperial Airways rest house until we moved to the Gulf Hotel (with the cabin crew). In Dubai we all stayed at the Carlton, which was just about the only hotel available. The last time that I had the pleasure of flying with Rainboe was to Dubai in August 1974.

Dave

Dysag

8th Mar 2009, 21:31

Did the VC-10 have a frequent problem with overheating brakes?

I remember as a pax on a flight back from Bangladesh, the gear stayed down for half an hour after take-off for that reason.

Maybe there wasn't enough water on the Dacca runway that day.

When the gear finally went up the famous silence was all the more appreciated.

arem

8th Mar 2009, 21:37

<< In Dubai we all stayed at the Carlton, which was just about the only hotel available.>>

Aah, the Carlton - stayed there often on freighters - 707's that is! At the time that was about the city limit of Dubai. Also 'Bristow's" bar, the only place to get a beer.

Captain Airclues

9th Mar 2009, 14:32

Dysag

I can't remember any brake overheat problems but it's 35 years since I have flown a VC10. Perhaps BEagle could help, as he has more recent experience.

Dave

forget

9th Mar 2009, 15:16

Dubai. Also 'Bristow's" bar, the only place to get a beer.

Mentioned in Despatches here. Old Dubai, sixth piccy down. What a hoot that was in its day. :D

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/287207-bristow-photos-31.html#post4611657

BEagle

9th Mar 2009, 15:36

The VC10 doesn't have brake temperature gauges and if the brakes were thought to have overheated during taxy out to the RW, the aircraft wouldn't then have taken off!

I suspect the reason for leaving the undercarriage down might have been for some other cause.....:hmm:

Rainboe

9th Mar 2009, 17:01

I remember as a pax on a flight back from Bangladesh, the gear stayed down for half an hour after take-off for that reason.
I suspect your memory is playing tricks! Leaving gear down for 30 mins would be a big problem, slow speed, low altitude. The flight probably transited Calcutta for Dacca and the F/E told the Captain on the walkaround that the brakes felt rather hot! It wouldn't have been for more than 10 mins absolute max! It had no problem with hot brakes, but you would take care on short sectors.

The VC10 does hold a special place in my affection. It was a lovely plane with no vices. We had a far better world coverage than BA has now- round the world trips. The Conways were ultra reliable, but the surges were extraordinary! They always self recovered. It was ultra comfortable, supremely quiet (up front), and incredibly stable- there was no 'shudder' or shake at all inflight. All in all, a thoroughly splendid aeroplane to tour the North American colonies and the pink bits on the world map!

Albert Driver

9th Mar 2009, 21:39

Complete nonsense, Old not bold!

The requirements for hotel accommodation for both flight and cabin crew were clearly laid down and a little different. In both cases there had to be 24hr room service, quiet rooms and blackout curtains.

The Captain got a better room (quite right too) but not necessarily a suite. If a suite was available at a reasonable price it would be put in the contract. If it was not in the contract but one was available on the day hotels would often consider it commercially justifiable to give it to the Captain (BOAC had large numbers of Management Captains out on the routes and hotels valued their airline contracts).
The First Officers did not get a better room than the Flight Engineer.

The flight crew did not get better hotels than the cabin crew. More often than not there was only one hotel that fitted the criteria and both crews would stay together. Where there was a choice the cabin crew representatives often stated a preference for, say, a beach hotel if available whereas the flight crew representatives invariably preferred a city centre location. It happened that in those days city centre hotels were usually of better quality, but not always (It did however have a positive effect on flight crew meal allowances). The big luxury beach resorts had yet to appear in most places.

Flight crew did not generally pilfer from rooms. It wasn't worth losing their (then) well-paid jobs for. Your story is ... just that. Cabin crew had relatively low basic pay rates in those days and they were more tempted. However this only became a significant problem when the Gulf region began building new 5-star hotels and fitting them out with crystal. The Alain Palace at AUH was one of these and you may have been thinking of that.

BOAC did not turn a blind eye to pilfering, which was a serious offence if reported to them. Hotels themselves however did occasionally turn a blind eye as their contracts were very lucrative and in those days passengers would often be attracted to the hotels where the crews stayed. Where crew were caught red-handed the hotel would usually make an "offer" (for that person to replace the item, or pay for repairs) which crew members invariably accepted to prevent the Company becoming involved.

On the separate subject of VC10 delayed gear retraction, with no brake temp gauges fitted there were brake cooling charts to be consulted instead. On a very short turn-round under some conditions they could require the gear to be left down after takeoff. I certainly remember operating Dacca-Calcutta with the gear down all the (not very long) way. I doubt the charts by themselves required such a long extension though.

taxydual

9th Mar 2009, 22:24

Tealeafing from hotels!! No, say it wasn't so!!

On the odd trip East that I used to undertake many years ago, an RAF Navigator (Sqn Ldr, in fact) used to carry two RAF holdalls. One for his kit and the other for anything that wasn't nailed down in the hotel rooms.

Invairably, holdall 2 outweighed holdall 1 on RTB.

He was caught out once, to my certain knowledge, on being asked at Checkout the whereabouts of the Silver Service Coffee Pot that Room Service had provided the previous evening.

In the minibus to the airport, he moaned a bucketful as he wanted the Silver Coffee Pot to "complete the set he had at home".

Being invited to stay at his for the weekend was akin to staying at the Intercontinental. Talk about 'home from home'.

Argonautical

10th Mar 2009, 09:29

Here are a couple of poor photos taken in June 1976 through a rather dirty cabin window of a BA 747.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/argonautical/vc-10_heathrow_76.jpg

An East African example at Heathrow.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/argonautical/vc-10_nairobi_76.jpg

British Airways example at Nairobi. In my opinion the worst livery BA ever had.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

10th Mar 2009, 10:59

<<BOAC crews seem to have had a similar status to senior British diplomats then>>

Well, some of them I met in Africa seemed to think they should be treated thus! The BEA crews were much more down to earth and great fun to work with.

One Christmas Eve an overflying BOAC VC-10 said to us: "The Captain has instructed me to wish you a Merry Christmas". Our Watch Supervisor's response is not printable!!

old,not bold

10th Mar 2009, 15:14

Rainboe, Captain Airclues, et Albert Driver.......

Interesting responses to my anecdote about managing crew slip accommodation; I don't want to get into a slanging match, even in a gentlemanly fashion, but I can assure you that every word was fact, not a "good story" etc etc.

Of course, crews who behaved like that were - and I guess still are - a small minority.

Large items could easily be removed during the slip, not at the end of it. The hotel that lost its mirror (looking-glass to you, Rainboe, I suppose) was the first Hilton in Abu Dhabi; anyone who used it will remember that there were several ways of leaving other than past the concierge.

Certain aircrew, not only BOAC/BA, could become quite querulous about minor tribulations which the majority would take in their stride. On these occasions I had a useful last resort, handed to anyone in danger of becoming boring................

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/picshooter/card.jpg

goofer

10th Mar 2009, 21:49

62K I''m equally off thread - for which I apologise. I was due to fly from London Heathrow to Philadelphia at about the same time (1970)...I was looking forward to flying in a SVC10. Due to fog at LHR I found myself on a very early TWA 747 which left from T3 before the airbridges were installed. 9 abreast in tourist I recall - and the movie: "The Life of Mr Soames."

At JFK I transferred to an AA 707 100 which still wore the "old" livery. Coming back I remember a standard VC10 from JFK. The ultimate flying experience. Until I travelled Ascot class to Sydney in 1977....but that's another story...

Albert Driver

11th Mar 2009, 09:30

YOUR STORY HAS TOUCHED MY HEART

Yup. That's exactly the attitude that turned the once world-beating BOAC/BEA into the fragmented, team-spirit-deficient, back-biting, people-unfriendly mess that BA is today.

Thanks for your contribution, Oldnotbold. Be proud.

Back to the VC10......

Rainboe

13th Mar 2009, 10:27

Still trite old recycled gossip that, over the years, develops a sort of 'folklore' of its own. Yes some crewmembers used to 'borrow' dressing gowns and odds and ends. But 'looking glasses' and 'coffetables'? I don't think so! In those days Customs wanted receipts for EVERYTHING imported. That gets conveniently forgotten. In another 20 years it will be 'sofas' and 'double beds'!

People actually believe these fables now, like the guy with a truck in Arizona who strapped a Hercules jetpack on the back and buried himself in a cliff, aand the old lady who dried off her poodle in the microwave, and I just got sent YET AGAIN the story of the man who sets the cruise control of his campervan and goes into the back to make a coffee. Time, and the number of tellings, gives it a strength of truthfulness of its own. There will be people peddling this garbage forever. No escape.

The SSK

13th Mar 2009, 13:46

Albert Driver: The flight crew did not get better hotels than the cabin crew.

Quoi?
In New York they did. On my BA duty trips there I used both. From memory the high-class one was the Wiltshiire.

edit - no it was the Berkshire

Jumbo Driver

14th Mar 2009, 08:15

... and the cabin crew were in the Lexington ...

JD
:)

Rainboe

14th Mar 2009, 11:48

What a shame the thread was hijacked by nonsense. 'Items stolen by crew'! The practise of many crew on checkout to leave their door unlocked with 'Make up room' sign displayed no doubt contributed to removal of items by other guests, and indeed, possibly by staff themselves. Customs were very hot about receipts for all imported items. I would say crew were possibly actually involved with less than half the incidents attributed to them. As for very large 5' 'looking glasses'? I think not!

BALPA always watched hotel standards for pilots only. If we ended up in a poorer quality hotel, there was a reason, and most pilots were happy to abide by the decision. I pay 1% of my pay to BALPA and am happy to leave it to them and abide by their guidance- you don't buy a guard dog and run around barking yourself!

Hopefully we have put all that garbage to rest now. So we put the Flight Deck into a very, very expensive but dreadful hotel, and the Cabin into a slightly less expensive but infinitely better one. There's a revolutionary in all of us.The VC10 had enough of 'hijacking'. We lost 2, in AMS and Dawson's Field. Any stories there? Dawson's field was Cyril Goulbourn, a real old-school gentleman flier. His description of that hijacking and subsequent events was hair raising. I'll never forget the image of the VC10 fin destroyed in the desert.

Basil

14th Mar 2009, 16:56

I don't recollect ever being in a high class crew hotel in NYC.

Dysag

14th Mar 2009, 17:48

On thread and on a more positive note:

My introduction to a "glass cockpit" was on being shown around BAC Weybridge in the early - to mid 70s.

They had a VC-10 cockpit mockup fitted with what looked like little black-and-white tv screens.

The gentleman who was showing us around subsequently moved to Toulouse.

Does anyone else have recollections of those days, or other contributions the VC-10 made to the Airbus line?

Rainboe

14th Mar 2009, 19:58

I dimly recall talk of the early 'glass cockpit' plans. I'm surprised we didn't end up with dreadful poor quality displays that tended to revert to a little girl with teddy in front of a blackboard! With the relatively poor technology of the time and near total lack of computing power, I assume the displays would have been fed from a 3' camera shooting a brightly lit pilot's panel display in the electronics bay! Like the simulator visual system.

ZFT

15th Mar 2009, 00:57

Rainboe,

I'll never forget the image of the VC10 fin destroyed in the desert.

Some months later I recall seeing it within the VC10 hanger at LHR. Wonder what happened to it?

safetypee

15th Mar 2009, 01:59

The Advanced Flight Deck (AFD) simulator at Weybridge used parts of the ill-fated BAC 3-11 simulator and the aerodynamics came from A300 like software – it might have used parts of a VC 10 throttle box, airbrakes, etc.
AFAIR the displays were not destined for any particular project – more a technology demonstrator, but of course much of what was learnt went to Toulouse. The use of 7xCRT displays (7in B/W) was a world first and the system was exhibited in the Smithsonian museum in DC. Much of the work involved developing flight and systems formats which aided operation and reduced workload.
Also, IIRC a later AFD ‘flew’ with A310 displays and those destined for the BAE ATP.
The nearest that the AFD came to flying was the use of colour CRT displays with AFD developed formats in the RAE Bedford BAC 1-11 (XX105). Of course Bedford did have a VC-10, but could not afford to fly it – last seen taxing across the 09 threshold to measure the beam distortion on the 27 MLS.

philbky

15th Mar 2009, 11:44

ZFT, what you saw could only have been the horizontal stabiliser see:
Surviving Bits & Pieces (http://www.vc10.net/History/bitsandpieces.html#G-ASGN).

Contemporaneous aviation magazines state the same information.

ZFT

15th Mar 2009, 12:13

Time dims the memory, but I'm pretty sure the fin and stab were resplendant on the hanger floor. Hopefully someone with more intact grey cells will confirm.

Brain Potter

15th Mar 2009, 13:55

Come on chaps, "horizontal stabilizer" is surely not a term that would have been used at Weybridge. I take it that you must mean "tailplane"? After all, TPI stands for Tail Plane Incidence. :}

philbky

15th Mar 2009, 14:22

Nice one Brian!

ZFT, could it be that the "TAILPLANE":D had been fitted to another fin at the time you saw it?

dixi188

15th Mar 2009, 16:09

I believe the tail plane from the desert was used as a spare for mods. to allow the whole thing to be changed and then the removed one to be modified without grounding any aircraft.

The first fins and tail planes were built at Hurn. I remember seeing them when I used to go into work with my father on a Sunday afternoon in the early 60's.
I was about 8-10 years old.
The last of the Viscounts and the first One-Elevens were also being built.
I don't think this would be allowed now.

And I've just seen a Super VC-10 fly over my house near Yeovilton.
It was going north at about 10,000ft, inbound to Brize I presume.
Still looks wonderful!

Georgeablelovehowindia

15th Mar 2009, 19:18

An engineering team went to Dawsons Field specifically to salvage Golf November's tailplane which was known to be intact. This was announced in an edition of 'BOAC News' and it was a small consolation to the staff that at least a part of this once-proud aeroplane would fly on. I think we all felt pretty sick seeing it lying broken like that, but at least on this occasion there was no loss of life.

One other outcome of the 1970 hijackings was the start of pre-boarding security checks, although not as draconian as we have come to know them, and the introduction of photo-ID on uniforms.

Rainboe

15th Mar 2009, 19:49

I remember when my kids were young the Engineering base threw open the hangars for family visits on a very pleasant family day. The hysteria amongst the children when a very big noisy fire engine set off to chase us across the massive apron was tremendous fun. I remember it was a very happy day showing the family what the job was all about. The engineers were all smiley faced and it was a very entertaining day. Such things have vanished into history!

When the Dawson's Field planes were blown up, I recall the enormity of the explosion. It's worth remembering the aeroplanes had no APUs. The toilets had no flush! I gather the VC10 came off best as the toilet used a flapping lid mechanism rather than just a flush that wasn't working on the TWA and Swissair! The saga of the crew and passengers over 2 weeks is a story that never really came out adequately.

Skylion

15th Mar 2009, 20:08

The engines were also salvaged from the Dawsons Field aircraft thanks to some excellent negotiating work by Nikki Bakkar, founder and owner of BOACs agents in Lebanon. Whether they or components were used again I don't know. A full account of what happened politically/diplomatically and on the ground outside and inside the aircraft would be fascinating but I've never seen anything comprehensive.

ZFT

15th Mar 2009, 21:29

philbky,

ZFT, could it be that the "TAILPLANE":D had been fitted to another fin at the time you saw it?

No, my memory was of the complete tailplane structure laying on the hanger floor. Hopefully someone else who also saw it there will confirm.

D120A

15th Mar 2009, 21:31

A picture, and something of a historic one.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x118/D120A/VC10KaiTak29Sep1964_1.jpg

G-ARVF is shown at Kai Tak on 29 September 1964, shortly before it left for London on the first ever VC10 service (on which I was lucky enough to be a passenger). The route was HKG-Rangoon-New Delhi-Karachi-Cairo-Zurich-LHR, flown by Captains Wallace (to Karachi) and Eagleton. Zurich was overflown (visibility 30 metres), inconveniencing one passenger, and two approaches were made at LHR before that too was abandoned due to fog (the airport closed during the second approach).

We diverted to Prestwick where, over a very civilised breakfast (all the male passengers wore suits, many of the ladies wore hats...), Capt. Eagleton assured a nervous passenger that, had the need arisen, he had enough fuel for Copenhagen! We were all very impressed with the VC10. And we were impressed with BOAC too, as Captain Eagleton took off from Prestwick just before his crew duty time expired for "a good place in the stack" as LHR was still to re-open. He timed it perfectly, the sector was 1h:25m.

The single fare from Hong Kong to London was £208, half the return fare of £416 because that's how it worked in those days. My annual salary at the time, as a Pilot Officer, was £600 - so you can guess someone else was paying!

One year before, I had been employed at Vickers-Armstrongs Weybridge on university vacation training and had worked on 'VF; it had returned from Wisley to have its engine mountings modified as part of the drag reduction programme. G-ARVG, 'VH and 'VJ had been in final assembly then in August 1963, and had yet to fly. It was good to see the aircraft again, especially in its new blue and gold paint scheme, and a great privilege to be a passenger on a historic first service from the Far East.

G-ARVF is now preserved in a museum in Germany, and if you visit it at Hermeskeil, don't be surprised if you see this picture.:ok:

Rainboe

15th Mar 2009, 22:21

I seem to remember the tailplane screwjacks were playing up and required maintenance. As there was not a spare, it would involve taking each plane out of service for the duration to do the job. Dansons Field happened at just the right time, and they could swap over the tailplane assemblies, or screwjack assembly, can't remember which, and keep the aeroplanes in service while the fleet took it in turns to be done. It wasn't called the 'Iron Duck' for nothing!

Can anyone say who was involved in the double engine failure LHR?

Jumbo Driver

15th Mar 2009, 22:59

Was it Brian Titchener ... ?

No, on second thoughts, I think it was Johnny Smurthwaite ...

... and didn't Roger Whitefield have a double engine failure out of JFK ... ?

'twas all character-building stuff ... :\

JD
:)

philbky

16th Mar 2009, 00:47

Sorry ZFT, all the contemporaneous magazines mention only the tailplane.

The fin would probably have been useless due to stress caused by the shock of the rear fuselage hitting the ground when the aircraft was demolished causing both twisting and lateral impact damage.

Brain Potter

16th Mar 2009, 14:05

When a RAF VC10 goes into the hangar at St Athan for it's 5-yearly deep servicing, the tailplane is removed at quite an early stage and is then given lengthy refurbishment. I'm sure that any contributors to this forum who work at DARA will be able to correct me, but I think that a newly-refurbished tailplane removed from the previous aircraft is then fitted to the current "patient". I also heard a story that the RAF originally purchased a spare tailplane to allow this process to happen. Notwithstanding that particular rumour, the number of airframes that the RAF has aquired/scrapped would have easily enabled such component swapping to take place from the early-80's onwards.

The fin (definitely not "the vertical stablizer" :O) remains firmly attached during the major service and I believe that the only time a fin-change has been required was after the BAe test crew nearly crashed the first K2 tanker during the flight trials - although, again, I am open to correction.

Rainboe

16th Mar 2009, 21:40

Go on....what happened?

ColdWarWimp

17th Mar 2009, 17:45

The rumour about the spare tailplane was true.

I saw it in store at 30MU (Sealand) in the late 70s. I was intrigued as to what aircraft had a white, one piece wing (it appeared to be the size of the Hunter wing) so asked the suppliers what it was - nobody knew!

Got the Section/Ref and identified it from that.

On a job to Filton I saw the "twisted" fin and asked about that. The engineer I was working with said it had been twisted in an over enthusiastic missle avoidance trial! :eek:

Rainboe

17th Mar 2009, 23:28

I'm told it was a surreal experience setting up the rear periscope and viewing the fin during Dutch roll training. The gyrations of the fin and tailplane were apparently extraordinary. I knew if I once viewed it, I wouldn't be happy flying it again! We did have a possible wheel problem in the Gulf once, and being 3rd pilot that leg, I went down into the electronics bay and dropped the periscope down to have a look at the wheels. It was set for vertical viewing and I was astonished to see us passing right over and along BAH runway, quite by coincidence.

The previous post does draw attention to the incredibly elegant design of the tailplane and fin. When you saw the detached tailplane, it had almost Spitfire-wing ellegance, totally artistic lines. I look up at the Boeing tailplanes these days and just sigh at their complete triumph of utilitarianism and functionalism over style! They just don't have the poetry!

Brain Potter

18th Mar 2009, 06:36

I believe that the BAe flight-test crew were engaged in high-speed flutter trials with the first K2 tanker conversion ZA141 (formerly G-ARVG) . The aircraft was oversped in a dive and the crew deployed full speedbrake. This, of course, moved the centre-of-pressure rapidly aft and pitched the nose even further down. The pull-out from the resulting dive overstressed the aircraft and the fin broke at a previously undetected crack. The tail was removed and replaced with that from the RAE Bedford aircraft XX914 (formerly G-ATDJ).

As a result of this incident RAF VC10s were fitted with a baulk to physically prevent full speedbrake deployment above 15,000 feet. This device is a simple hinged plate that the crew fold into postion during the climb checks. It can be removed to allow full speedbrake deployment below 15,000 ft and is confirmed as "out" during the landing checks.

Observation from the periscope also shows how much of pounding the tail structure takes as the aircraft is taking on fuel inflight.

treadigraph

18th Mar 2009, 08:09

You can read about the K1 incident in Brian Trubshaw's autobiog, though he wasn't a member of the crew. I think the details differ a little from Brain Potter's account, but the essential story is the same.

I expect the return to Filton was a little anxious!

The VC-10 is certainly the most beautiful airliner (for a jet that is), better I think than Concorde.

Argonautical

18th Mar 2009, 11:20

Here is one I took at Harare in 1979 during the arrival of the "Monitoring Force"

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/argonautical/vc-10_harare_1979.jpg

SincoTC

18th Mar 2009, 18:37

I remember being quite surprised by the amount of movement I saw in the tail assembly of the Super VC10 during an enthusiastic short landing on one of its early appearances at Farnborough!

Rainboe

18th Mar 2009, 22:22

That's a lot of mass perched up there on top of the fin, near tremendous air loads and vibration from the engines (think reverse thrust). They would shake around, and in the air doing flight manouevres. The DC9 series look bad too, with their very thin airfoil sections and elevators that appear to move independently of their own volition on the ground!

The most efficient part of the VC10 and the 1-11 was their sheer ability to convert fuel more efficiently than anything else directly to sound energy! In the case of the VC10, a little got converted to thrust as well.

philbky

18th Mar 2009, 22:44

Just out of interest and at the risk of thread drift (and this thread has wandered a bit already!) mention of DC9 elevators reminded me of something I've never cleared up.

From the 1960s to the 1990s I regularly saw DC9s in service around Europe and the USA. Often when parked at a gate one elevator would be up, the other down as if they were decoupled. Don't recall seeing this on any other type, T tail or not.

Anyone know the reason, if this was just a DC9 phenomenon and why?

Wodrick

18th Mar 2009, 22:49

One is Avionics so please excuse any errors in terminology.

DC-9 series aircraft do not have powered Elevators, they use Servo Tabs ? and therefore assume random positions when at rest. Airflow is needed for them to work normally.

This has been covered on multiple previous occasions.

DH106

19th Mar 2009, 09:22

Yes - the DC-9's elevators effectively 'float' and are manually powered by their servo tabs. Any forward airflow will tend to align them flat, but parked on a stand with a wind from behind and they'll each be blown either full up or down - often in different directions.
You'd have thought actually there'd be gust locks as a strong gust would surely damage an elevator at it's stops ?:sad:

philbky

19th Mar 2009, 12:03

Thanks Wodrick and DH106.

BEagle

19th Mar 2009, 12:57

The VC10 tailplane is, in fact, bigger in span than a Phantom's wingspan!

I'm told by a chum, who did a BAC university sandwich course and worked on the EAAC Super VC10s at Brooklands, that on top of the tailplane was a good place to snooze off the effects of a good lunch without 't management spotting you.

He also told me that a colleague had pinched some VC10-destined Skydrol to use in his car's brake system. It got about half a mile before all the seals failed - and was a bit of a bugger to stop as he'd also used some in his clutch system - which had also failed in gear. Some cursing, swearing and lots of handbrake finally stopped it, whereupon it sat in a puddle of red gloop!

SincoTC

19th Mar 2009, 13:21

Indeed, it was the buffeting from the the four Conway's reverse thrust! I believe that there was an important foreign delegation in the President's tent and the pilot (i can't remember if it was Jock Bryce or Brian Trubshaw) put on a display of some verve, followed by a short stop in front of said tent, probably helping to secure an order in the Middle East or Africa.
:ok:

Dan Winterland

19th Mar 2009, 14:45

I once took some BAe structural engineers on a tanking trip. They came along to see the effects of receiving on the tail assembly - pertinent as the tailplane sits in the efflux from the tanker's jetpipes. I had a look through the aft periscope while we were in contact and I can say I was "impressed" by what I saw. The whole tail assembly seemed to be flexing about a foot. But it wasn't that the engineers were concerned about. They seemed to think the tail could take it. What they were worried about was they way we were using the taiilplane incidence - in short bursts rather than longer applications. The stop-start nature of the short applications was stressing the mecahnism apparently.

Brain Potter

20th Mar 2009, 05:13

The description of the ZA141 incident came from those who were flying the aircraft in the service at the time. Of course it may have become over-embellished by numerous crewroom and classroom re-tellings; no doubt this version also contains touch of antipathy towards BAe and feelings of schadenfraude towards the "higher-beings" of the test pilot world. On the other hand, Brian Trubshaw's account, written with the bias of the project manager, may have been slightly modified to spare the blushes of his colleagues. It is all water-under-the-bridg, happily no one was hurt and the jet went on to give nearly 20 years more service.

Dan,

Of course there is slightly less TPI use if one holds the out-of-trim force when in-contact whilst quickly getting ones's 10 strikes. But an AARI would never do that would he?.....

wayoutwest

21st Mar 2009, 00:18

Jumbo Driver

21st Mar 2009, 08:49

G/day wayoutwest ...

In the early 70s, a typical VC10 westbound service operated as BA591 LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN-MEL and returned as BA592 MEL-SYD-NAN-HNL-LAX-JFK-LHR. For crews, it was a 15/16-day trip.

Around the same time, a typical eastbound service might have been LHR-BEY-BAH-CCU-SIN-PER-SYD; however, at that time there was great variety of different routes and stops through Europe and the Middle East.

The VC10 service across the Indian Ocean operated initially NBO-SEZ-CMB-HKG-TYO and back, and then later out of SA as JNB-SEZ-CMB-HKG-TYO and return. SEZ-HKG/HKG-SEZ was BA940/941, HKG-TYO/TYO-HKG BA910/911 and the NBO-SEZ/SEZ-NBO flight number varied, according to the LHR-NBO service that it extended.

The first services to SEZ on the VC10 were, I believe, in 1971; I first visited SEZ in July 1972.

JD
:)

Foul-Sudan

24th Mar 2009, 11:48

In November 1972 I did an 8 day round the world Eastbound on Standard and Super VC10's with the late, great Dougie Cooper. I am not sure whether it was the taxing schedule,which included a Melbourne shuttle out of Sydney, or the frolics on the night-stops that demanded a 2 day sleep on return to London!

Jumbo Driver

24th Mar 2009, 12:00

Wasn't Bella there to keep an eye on him, then ... ?

JD
;)

PS you mean 18-day, surely ...

Foul-Sudan

24th Mar 2009, 12:18

Bella was supposed to 'greet' Dougie in the hotel in LA,being westbound on the 591, but got caught in traffic causing much humour and mayhem.
We had operated 'on the bug' HNL-LAX,climb,cruise and descent to improve the 'layover' time in the hotel!
To our astonishment we made up 25 minutes flight time and used 1500kgs
less fuel.
It was an EIGHT day round the world!

WHBM

24th Mar 2009, 15:16

g/day all.did boac and british airways use the vc10 on their round the world service? i think it went out via the usa down to NZ and home via australia and the middle east.i seem to remember BA had another service using vc10s from joburg -seychelles to india or singapore.
Over the years BOAC went forwards and backwards between the 707 and the VC10 on these services, depending on how they were deploying their fleet. Because the crews were qualified on only one type, of course, and due to the large number of crew slips that took place, changing from one type to another was a substantial logistical exercise and so was only done rarely.

There were two transpacific routes, the northern one through Honolulu, Tokyo, Hong Kong etc, and the southern one through Honolulu, Fiji, Australasian points, etc. The northern route went back to Bristol Britanna days (when they stopped at Wake Island between Honolulu and Tokyo) and was based around British route authority to serve to the USA from Hong Kong; the later route from Hong Kong to South Africa was similar. Cathay Pacific in those days was a limited regional carrier. The southern route also had a predecessor in Bitish Commonwealth Pacific Airways, a joint UK-Australia-New Zealand operator of transpacific services in the 1940s-50s, which BOAC had a 20% shareholding in.

The SSK

24th Mar 2009, 16:24

I think the Northern route was gone by the time I joined in 1967.

The Indian Ocean route was to capitalise on the opening up of the Seychelles ‘unspoilt paradise’ when the airport was upgraded, previously it was limited to Friendships from Mombasa, I think.

When talking of transpacific routes, don’t forget the Qantas 581, surely the most exotic routing ever: London – Bermuda – Nassau – Mexico City – Acapulco – Papeete – Nandi – Sydney.
(Not with a VC10 - thread drift - sorry)

Dysag

29th Mar 2009, 19:33

"We have handed to the Americans, without a struggle, the entire world market for big jet airliners".

Jhieminga

29th Mar 2009, 20:02

That's an easy one, but I'll leave the answer open so others can have a go. :p

Capot

30th Mar 2009, 10:23

George Edwards, Vickers managing director.

Less easy to name those who, from among the movers and shakers who could and should have changed things, failed to take any notice whatsoever of George Edwards while pursuing their own flawed purposes.

Skylion

30th Mar 2009, 15:31

BOAC must have abandoned the North Pacific route, then operated by 707-436 around 1970. It was certainly operated in 67/68 and had an optional Wake Island tech call westbound followed by a nightstop in Tokyo before proceeding as the next days' Tokyo-Hong Kong-Various x 3 or 4- London.

The VC10 from Tokyo to Jo'burg started in 1972. Originally once a week it routed Tokyo/Hong Kong/ Columbo/Seychelles/Jo'burg and then back to Tokyo with a second service operating the same route but from Seychelles to Nairobi and on to London. This was later abandoned and both went to Jo'burg and in due course became 747 operated. During the cabin crew strike later in the 70s this route kept going as the strike was only ex London and BA simply re-rostered all on the route at the time to keep doing it and never touch London.

Had BA not sold Hong Kong Airways to Cathay ,originally in exchange for a shareholding in the latter, they could have continued to this day operating all Hong Kong Airways routes,- ie all points north of Hong Kong and North Pacific. At the time it had problems making these pay even with Viscounts and thought they were of no long term interest.

crisso

30th Mar 2009, 15:34

Whilst the above an ironic quote from the late great Sir George Edwards, my personal favourite of his (at the risk of going slightly off-topic), was on the first commercial flight of Concorde. A VIP sitting next to Sir George commented that, flying at twice the speed of sound in Concorde seemed absolutely no different, as to flying in a conventional subsonic jetliner. Sir George laconically replied 'yes, that was the difficult bit...'

AIRCRAFTSNAPPER

31st Mar 2009, 00:08

I Share Your Enthusiasm Best Aircraft Ever, In A Lull Period I Had An Hour In The Right Hand Seat Waiting For Trade And Had A Touch Of The Column, I Will Never Ever Forget It, It Was Superb A Marvelous Aeroplane

Speedbird48

1st Apr 2009, 02:05

I flew at least 3 North Pacific trips in late 1971/72 on -436's. We went eastbound all the way to Tokyo-Honolulu-San Francisco then turned around and went back the way we came!! It was a killer with the time changes and then reversing direction.

The first one I did by deadheading to replace somebody in Honolulu and went West bound with Qantas. I then picked up the -436 for the trip home all West bound. Round the world in 8 days and felt fine. The next one was the regular schedule and it was awful even for a young lad.

Speedbird 48.

tornadoken

1st Apr 2009, 06:48

dysag: Q: who said... “a decision we (=UK will) regret for many years (the biggest) blunder of all”.

A: That, too, was GRE, re. VC.7/V.1000 (D.Wood, Project Cancelled,P97)

Q: But who said: weight “would prevent (V.1000) providing required payload/ range.”

Q: Who said: “cancelled (as) I could not find a customer. BOAC did not want (/RAF) could not afford it”.

A1: H.Wynn, (Official) History of RAF Transport Command: Forged in War,HMSO,96,P96. A2: MoS R.Maudling,P62,Memoirs,Sidgwick,78.

There's always a good reason for Ministers to cancel, and incur tabloid odium at "waste".

Dr Jekyll

1st Apr 2009, 08:07

I thought the controversy over V1000 was that BOAC said they didn't want it because there was no need for new jets. Then as soon as the jigs were broken up ordered 707s.

Jig Peter

1st Apr 2009, 17:12

And only now (or at least since the mid-70s) is UK, via its originally unenthusiastic toe-hold in Airbus, anywhere at all in the big-jet market. Worra load of muppets Brtiannia has had to put up with all these years (and I include Maggie T. for her remark about the A320 "I hope it doesn't turn into another Concorde" - it's paid a good lot of royalties in its career, but Gweat Bwittain PLC still doesn't want to know about things designed and built by engineers).
Rant over - for now ...
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Jhieminga

2nd Apr 2009, 08:37

Q: But who said: weight “would prevent (V.1000) providing required payload/ range.”
That's an interesting statement. Unfortunately we will not know whether this would've become true but is there some more backing for this statement perhaps? It was also said that the weight of the civil version was moving down as the development progressed, we also know (isn't hindsight great) that the Conway did develop the promised power levels, a bit more even.
While it may have been a valid reason at that point to cancel the V.1000, couldn't we say that with a bit more faith in the skills of Vickers and Rolls-Royce it may have been a feeble reason? Obviously this is hindsight talking but personally I'm still wondering if the reasons were good enough. Anyway, with the V.1000 there may not have been a VC10 so should we really complain..... :};)

Wee Jock McPlop

2nd Apr 2009, 10:29

One of my fondest memories of my time at Brize Radar in the early 90s, was when BAe were flying the stored (former BA) airframes out of Abingdon to Filton.

As I understood it from the guys on 10/101 Sqns, they only had one set of 4 Conways for all the frames and swapped them over to the next airframe once the ferry flight had been completed. The gear and flaps were apparently down and welded and a basic avionics kit installed - indeed the radio was set on a single frequency for the whole ferry flight. They were granted permission to fly by the CAA on a 'one flight only' basis to Filton and in VFR conditions only. As I recall, the aircraft were flown/crewed by BAe 'test pilots/engineers'. Whoever they were, they were brave guys, given that the beasts had been stored outside in their 'cocoons' for so long.

Anyway, one of these flights got airborne out of Abingdon and checked-in with us at Brize Radar. Trouble was, they then got a stuck transmit switch for much of the transit across to Bristol! Much hilarity was had as the crew discussed where they thought they were as they made the transit across to Bristol. They played 'what's the airfield' as they looked across to Brize, Fairford and Kemble sliding past on the starboard side. They also played 'what's the town/village'.

However, it was the rather 'fruity' language that they used during their conversations that turned the air over Oxfordshire/Gloucestershire/Wiltshire an even brighter shade of blue than it already was!!

Is that f......g Brize?
Na mate it's f......g Fairford!
Na it's f.....g not!

Anyway, you get the drift. The 5-10 minutes that this went on for were amongst the funniest I've had when on duty as an air trafficker! By the end of it, everyone at Brize Radar was listening in to the alternative geography lesson! The guys only realised that they had a problem when they saw Bristol looming up and were surprised that we had not mentioned to them to listen out for Filton. Having 'unstuck' and regained two-way, we thanked them very much for the in-flight entertainment that they had provided. A very red-faced crew then sheepishly checked in with Filton.

As thanks for the entertainment, we got the CIS Eng guys to make a recording of the r/t from our tapes and sent it to the guys, who I think were Warton-based. I'm not so sure they appreciated our gift!!

Tercarley

12th May 2009, 09:18

I seem to remember that there used to be graffiti on the flight deck something like "put Guthrie in Khartoum" cos it was him that was responsible for badmouthing the VC10.

By the way if you want to hear and see that marvellous a/craft just get near Brize Norton. I was there about a month ago in a village close by and the sight and the sound of the VC10 made me wish I was up there poling the plane round the sky.

I had an incident near Beirut when my first officer said to me what are those spiralling things coming up towards us!!! We then realised that they were SAM heat seeking missiles being fired at 2 Israeli Phantoms and there we were with these 4 rear mounted engines ready to be heat seeked. It took a bit of a manouevre to get away, and when I spoke to the Station Officer in Beirut about it when we landed he told me it weas quite normal in fact one came across the airfield yesterday. I phoned BALPA as soon as we landed in London and they got the company to cease ops to Beirut. Another good reason to keep looking out of the front/side of the flight deck windows!!!!!!!

Thunderbird167

16th May 2009, 08:04

Just a small note, there crew was not Warton based asthe two pilots were the chief pilot from pilot and his number two.

The aircraft were rebuilt at Abingdon with basic systems under the control of a Filton enginnering team.

On arrival at Filton the aircraft were put into the strip phase ready fro conversion.

I was very much involved in the conversion project as manpower planning manager but left before the first aircraft, ZD242, was delivered but did at least see the first two test flights.

Awesome aircraft and an incredible feat to recover them from Abingdon.

Flying Lawyer

16th May 2009, 10:13

.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/VC10_ww71.jpg

Fly past at White Waltham
Silver Jubilee Air Show 1977
Not my picture.

I wasn't there, unfortunately.

Did anyone here do the fly past?

(Edited to correct date)

.

DozyWannabe

16th May 2009, 11:47

I have no idea, but I'd imagine it led to the sweetest-tasting tea and biscuits they ever had!

J.

Rainboe

16th May 2009, 12:33

That picture was the famous low flypast at the White Waltham Airshow I believe, where the fast moving fin of the VC10 is in some photographs the only thing sticking above a mound in the airfield. I flew afterwards with the Flight Engineer on that flight. He was still spitting blood. Apparently on the way down there, the Training Captain in charge had them all strap in and said 'he was going to try something'. He then rolled the ailerons rapidly to full deflection, then quickly rolled them the other way. The VC10 did a wild gyration and settled back wings level having lost 50'. So they reach the airshow and are roaring along the runway at less than 30', the the F/E said 'and b****r me if he didn't suddenly do it again! I thought we were going to die!' Not a happy bunny.

I'm pretty sure the Training Captain doing that was Tony Smith.

Dr Jekyll

16th May 2009, 13:04

The picture must have been later than 1971 because it's BA rather than BOAC colours. I thought the famous flypast happened around 1976.

Skipness One Echo

16th May 2009, 13:06

Silver Jubilee Airshow 1977 with G-ARVM I believe.

merlinxx

16th May 2009, 13:32

Aaaahh a little "VC10derness":ok:

Jhieminga

16th May 2009, 14:53

The names of the crew are here: Testing and early days (http://www.vc10.net/Memories/testing_earlydays.html#GARVM%20at%20White%20Waltham). Looks like it was indeed that Training Captain.

JamesA

17th May 2009, 16:55

The RAF did obtain a 'spare' horizontal stabilizer from BA in about 1981. I collected it from LHR and took it to the Storage unit at Carlisle, where it was received with amazement and many 'What are we supposed to do with it?' questions.

ATR42300

17th May 2009, 16:59

As an Air Cadet on Summer camp at Brize in 1974I would love to see again the training film "The approaches to Kai Tak" anyone know if its been put on Video/DVD......great entertainment!!!

Aerials

17th May 2009, 17:11

ATR42300, I just tried a search on U-Tube for Kai Tak Approach. There are some 420 videos to look through. You may find it there, but knowing of the approach to Kai Tak I'm sure that you wouldn't be disappointed in some of the other stuff!
Regards, Aerials

Flying Lawyer

19th May 2009, 06:35

Thanks for the help correcting the date. :ok:

Rainboe
Do you know if any disciplinary action was taken against the Captain?
In the current culture he'd probably lose his job, but I wondered if things were as bad in those days as now.

TercarleyBy the way if you want to hear and see that marvellous a/craft just get near Brize Norton. I was there about a month ago in a village close by and the sight and the sound of the VC10 made me wish I was up there poling the plane round the sky.
I wasn't poling it around the sky (just as well!) but here are a couple of pics from the third best seat in the house.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/Cockpit1_800.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/VC10Cockpit2_800.jpg

And a few from down the back.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/Tornado204cr.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/Tornado210a800.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/Tornado211_800.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/Typhoon216_800.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/Typhoon223_800.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/Typhoon228_800.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Flying%20Lawyer/Typhoonformation_800.jpg

Pics taken during a GAPAN (http://www.gapan.org) visit to Brize, July 2007

FL

PPRuNe Pop

19th May 2009, 07:01

The White Waltham flypast was May 26th 1977. The event was the Air Pageant celebrating the Queen's Silver Jubilee run by Leisure Sport.

I believe Rainboe is correct, it was Tony Smith. I understood then it was his swan song!

Albert Driver

19th May 2009, 21:22

The commander held the post of either Flight Manager or Fight Training Manager at the time. That and his imminent retirement undoubtedly influenced subsequent events.
His co-pilot's career wasn't much harmed by the incident either. He later rose to be Head of Training at General Manager or some similar level... .but that's another story.

Does all this remind you of a certain Concorde incident for which a senior Manager was responsible and got off lightly, I wonder?

I was given a photo of this fly-past showing the aft fuselage at around 15 ft agl leaving a nice trail through the grass - and that was before it rotated to climb away :eek: .
I seem to remember a discussion about the radio altimeter, which on VM at the time had a transmitter far removed from the landing gear area. The calibration geometry to correct for this assumed normal landing configuration and attitude: gear down, landing flap, threshold speed etc. The fly-past can be seen to be tail down (gear up, who knows what speed and with what could be approach flap). Anyway if anyone was actually looking at the rad alt at the time it would have given a false indication of the ground clearance of the lowest part of the aircraft - in this case the aft fuselage.

Moral: never fly with anyone on their last trip, especially if they still have something to prove.

Jhieminga

20th May 2009, 06:39

I was given a photo of this fly-past showing the aft fuselage at around 15 ft agl leaving a nice trail through the grass
You wouldn't happen to have a scanner nearby would you?

Albert Driver

20th May 2009, 07:50

Not my copyright for publishing on the 'net, Jelle, but there were plenty of eyewitness reports and a number of similar images are out there.

Jhieminga

20th May 2009, 08:00

I see, still it's always worth asking. Thanks for the quick reply. :ok: The funny thing is that this particular flypast still sticks in so many people's memories.

Back to the subject then! :)

Howslo

21st May 2009, 20:44

I've just had the pleasure of seeing a VC10 low over Evington, Leicester around 1830 this evening, heading south. A very rare treat this way! We hardly see anything military.

I'd love to know where it was heading.

BEagle

22nd May 2009, 06:41

Maybe doing some training at Cottesmore?

I was doing some pre-booked training there many years ago, but was then told to go away as there had been several noise complaints. So off we went to Coningsby at 2500ft to finish off.

Anyway, glad that the sight of the old grey lady was a pleasure for you!

etsd0001

8th Aug 2009, 10:14

Once I visited Sir George Edwards at his home after asking him to sign a print of a VC-10 over SFO. When I unrolled the print he said the VC-10 would have been a world beater but was 3 years too late.

As a side note - walking out of his house I saw this magnificent oil painting of a Wellington fitted with the magnetic mine 'hoop' flying just above the sea with a mine explosion behind it. I commented on it and he said that was the first project he was in charge of and he had to reort the Churchill every night on its progress.

Red Spitfire Driver

9th Aug 2009, 21:15

I was a passenger on that flight!

G-ARVM was the training aircraft based at Prestwick. In 1977 I was a trainee ATCO on approach and noticed a flight plan on 'VM to EGVY (White Waltham). So I rang Flight Clearance and told them about the incorrect destination! They informed me that the flight plan was correct and it was indeed going to White Waltham - but not for a landing!!
So I asked if there were any spare seats - yep said the Captain, 'Get yourself to the apron'. So I was granted an 'Early Go' and got a lift to the apron in the ATC vehicle.
A group of us boarded the aircraft and were ushered into an almost empty cabin. There was just a 'pod' of a few seats (10 or 15 I think), and told to make ourselves comfortable.
We went Airways (Amber 1 - Ahh nostalgia), with a few dutch rolls on the way. We all visited the flight deck and chatted with the crew and the trainee pilots that were on board.
'VM left controlled airspace at WOD, and was too early for our slot to open the airshow at White Waltham.
The Captain announced that he 'had a friend playing cricket nearby', so we went off low level 2,500ft looking for a cricket match! Apparently he found the village and the cricket team were treated to a flypast, anyone know where that was?
We then continued to Twyford to follow the railway line to White Waltham. At that time the airfield was inside the London Control Zone, so we had to fly up the 'free-lane' and comply with the level restrictions. Was that (not above)1,250ft?
We did our flypast, just as Prince Charles was declaring the airshow open. In fact that evening it was on the national news with Prince Charles saying 'I declare this airshow - the rest being drowned out by the sound of a VC10 !!'
After that we flew back up the free lane and rejoined controlled airspace at WOD, via the Ambers back to Prestwick.
On the way back we discussed with the crew the flypast. I asked if the captain had meant to do a 'touch and go', he replied 'No, as the wheels were up!' It certainly looked close to the ground from inside!
The return was quite leisurely with just a few more dutch rolls.
I will always remember the galley curtains flying across from one side of the aisle to the other, almost horizontal. We then managed a few 'toasted sandwiches'.
On return to Prestwick 'VM then went straight into the circuit.
Unfortunately the 'toasties' and the 'dutch rolls' took their toll on my stomach, so the Captain agreed to do a 'full stop' and return to the apron to drop me, and those other passengers that didn't want to spend some hours 'circuit bashing'.
So that is the full story of the Saturday flypast at White Waltham.

Thank you G-ARVM, a most memorable flight.

JB (less than 9 months from retirement)!

PS According to A Little VC10derness (http://www.VC10.net) the crew were;
Captain A J Smith
F/O A Harkness
E/O T Snell

Flying Lawyer

10th Aug 2009, 06:22

Lucky man RSD.

Here's another shot from the other side.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Aviation/VC10WW1977_800.jpg

Not my picture.

Georgeablelovehowindia

10th Aug 2009, 11:56

Maybe not your picture, FL, but I'm pretty certain it's very like the framed one which used to adorn the study of the first officer! It's alleged that Prince Charles remarked that the 'VM's underside looked a bit dirty. One has to presume that he was joking.

Alongside was a signed framed photograph from HM QE II and Prince Philip, in recognition of the occasion when, in his later capacity as Flight Training Manager Concorde and General Manager Flight Training BA, he flew them on the second half of a tour of the USA.

On the other side was another signed photograph, from Mrs G. and me, because he also went on to be the best man at our wedding!

:)

Tercarley

18th Aug 2009, 18:51

Rainboe

There were some things in your bit that I had quite forgotten about! I went onto the VC10 in 1966 and left it for the 747 in 1972 and although I loved the 747 and flew it till I retired I never forgot the VC10. In fact I think that there should be another VC10 re-union before all of us are not fit enough to attend. !!!!!!! I remeber going to a few re-union type dos at hotels in LGW and LHR in the 70's. Do they happen anymore????

Rainboe

18th Aug 2009, 21:57

There is an annual reunion for ex-Hamsters of any type at Hamble every May organised by p.a.nelson at btinternet.com. You should attend if you were at Hamble, or try faking it if you weren't. Other than that, BA doesn't seem to go in for reunions like Dan or BCAL do- I don't think there is anything else......or they have not been inviting me!

Tercarley

19th Aug 2009, 11:54

I wasnt at Hamble joined the airline from the RAF in 1956!!! Flew the Argonaut and Comet 4 as my first 2 aircraft.

Dont think that I could fake being a Hamble cadet!!!!!! They cant be that old yet!

There did used to be Comet and VC10 reunions as I said in the 70's but they stopped. I think that some ladies in the Training Section used to organise them. I must have known you of course and vice versa.

Captain Airclues

19th Aug 2009, 18:20

Tercarley

Are you in ICARUS? There are plenty of ex-VC10 people at their reunions in April and October each year.

Dave

PS. I flew the VC10 1969-1975 and the 747 1975-2007.

Tercarley

19th Aug 2009, 21:25

Captain Airclues

Yes I am in ICARUS.

As I live in Channel Islands its a bit difficult to go to a reunion that doesnt include my wife. What I was hoping was that there would be a black tie do where spouses could go to as well. I see the next Icaraus reunion is in early October though, but already away for that one. Will think about that in future.

Thanks for the information though.

crewmeal

20th Aug 2009, 07:38

This ad from 1969 brought a tear to my eye!! Can't imagine that experience on carriers today.

YouTube - 1969 BOAC Sgt. Major (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuoV0mfxdUI)

Tercarley

20th Aug 2009, 13:38

The Captain is Norman Bristow Im sure. Dont remember the Chief Steward though - but of course its a while ago now!

Rainboe

20th Aug 2009, 14:27

Goodness me, there's something about those letters...BOAC. They were revered, and we could knock crap out of the opposition service wise. You could be in the most far flung bolt hole of the world, and seeing the white, blue and big gold speedwing bowling in....it fair made you want to salute! How could we have gotten rid of a golden brand so easily? 'BOAC takes good care of you'. Wonderful- and I was part of it! That advert was not lying or poetic licence- it was like that then.

FirstFiveEighth

20th Aug 2009, 16:47

.....mmmm, agree with all the above re. the quite lovely VC10, but BOAC?

In the '60's, 70's and 80's, my experience of them was quite awful. Everyone from the check-in desk staff, through the at times downright surly and arrogant cabin crew, seemed to think that the flying world owed them a living...and some of the aircrew were even worse.

I swore I'd never fly with them again after experiencing the delights of Cathay Pacific, Singapore+Malaysia Airlines and then Virgin.

Tercarley

20th Aug 2009, 17:38

I dont agree with you - obviously because I was one of those "arrogant" tech crews - as you put it. Make no mistake the BOAC service was not quite like SIA or the others you quote but it was a professional service as far as I was concerned in the air with Flight Deck and Cabin Crew and CRM hadnt even been spoken of then. Perhaps we seemed arrogant cos we were another handpicked lot. It was difficult to get into BOAC at the time, and some of the Captains could be heavy handed perhaps, but they had been used to wartime discipline.

Compare the CC to the ones you have today in BA and they were like chalk and cheese. Mind you the girls recruited for CC when I first joined the BOAC brand were real ladies, they were all handpicked for their manners and dare I say it "pedigrees"!!!!

I left BA in 1983 - took early retirement - when I became a computer name and number, the airline had completely changed. I went to SIA and have to say their service was good as Im sure Cathay etc is and was at the time. I dont think that Virgin is in quite the same league as SIA or Malaysian though.

Seeing the VC10 coming into Nairobi when it first started there one evening with its tail in blue and gold. Wonderful.

Capetonian

20th Aug 2009, 17:52

I flew on this most beautiful of all civilian aircraft when Air Malawi operated them between Blantyre and London, and also BA when they had the JNB - SEZ - HKG - TYO service. Happy memories, which were brought back not long ago when I went to Brooklands and sat in the cockpit of the Omani VC10. An ex flight engineer took us through the take off procedure so vividly I could almost smell the jet fuel and feel the thrust.

Rainboe

20th Aug 2009, 18:56

Worship this! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiwsbMaTYoM&feature=related) Nobody mentioned the lovely Roz Hanby yet?

Albert Driver

21st Aug 2009, 11:15

I swore I'd never fly with them again after experiencing the delights of Cathay Pacific, Singapore+Malaysia Airlines and then Virgin.

Funny, isn't it, how people rate airlines by the most trivial of things.

Yet if something had gone badly wrong on the flight, say serious technical problem followed by diversion, which airline would you rather have been on: Singapore, Malaysia or BOAC?

Tercarley

21st Aug 2009, 11:24

Dont forget though that SIA has had a lot of ex-BOAC/ BA pilots - and always had - plus QANTAS and other major world airlines pilots with them, having left their companies because they had taken early retirement. When I was there we had hardly any locals flying as Captains. I dont know what its like now of course.

Not to take away from BOAC/BA expertise . I have often come across this attitude of the poster who said that BOAC crews and its successor were arrogant etc. It largely stems from jealousy that we had a marvellous airline. (And they secretly wanted to be in it!!!!!!)

BEagle

21st Aug 2009, 13:26

Just for you, rainboe:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/RozHanby.jpg

superspotter

21st Aug 2009, 15:49

In response to D120A's posting earlier re: the VC-10 in Hermeskiel museum here she is, the beauty:
http://thumbs.fotopic.net/433060000024.jpg
Sorry not as large as I expected, if you would care to see it better than you can visit my site at Superspotter's gallery by Clive Hindmarch :: Fotopic.Net (http://superspottersgallery.fotopic.net) and look under the Hermskiel heading.

My only flight on a VC-10 was back on 1st September 1975 from Lusaka to Heathrow on BA, oh I loved that machine! I have a request, if any of you guys could actually tell me the flight number on that route at the time??

FirstFiveEighth

21st Aug 2009, 15:51

......terribly covenient that you should mention technical problems, Albert Driver. One of a couple of examples:-

Returning to the UK once, on BOAC, we "went mechanical" and we in Business Class were told (reasonably politely) that we were having to divert to Belgrade as a precaution. As the last stages of approach were over some sea, this began to seem distinctly odd. Turned out we had landed in Trieste....no explanation, or apology for the misinformation.

As for Tercarley's comment to the effect of "have encountered this attitude before from customers--just jealous". Duh.

What was that word beginning with "A" again?

PS--Despite almost the same hours flown with Cathay/SIA/MAS/Virgin as with BOAC, not one technical malfunction encountered........

PPS--Let's get back to the aeroplane itself now.

Rainboe

21st Aug 2009, 16:16

Ah, quite some example! So your flight had one tech malfunction, and that somehow grades the airline? You are right, let's get back to the lovely VC10 and Roz and BOAC.....without you if you don't mind! You are indeed a busy-body to want to park your opinion in here! If you want to sound off about BOAC, I don't think this is the appropriate place! You have nothing to do with BOAC, you didn't know Roz, and you hardly flew on the VC10- why exactly are you here? Just to pour cold water on us old codgers' reminisces? Be gone, Spoilsport! For someone with just 11 posts, you have earned yourself an 'ignore' already- and I suspect half a dozen others too!

Captain Airclues

21st Aug 2009, 16:47

superspotter

The flight number was the BA048. Are you sure about the date? The BA048 operated on Wednesdays (dep 09.30) and Saturdays (dep 19.30). 1st September 1975 was a Monday. Perhaps it was an extra service?

Dave

superspotter

21st Aug 2009, 16:55

Well thats the date I have in my ancient passengers flight log book!! It was filled in somewhat retrospectively so may well be wrong, I lived in Kitwe and schooled in the UK so was going back and forth. Thank you anyway:)

Capetonian

21st Aug 2009, 17:52

Returning to the UK once, on BOAC, we "went mechanical" and we in Business Class were told (reasonably politely) that we were having to divert to Belgrade as a precaution.

I don't remember BOAC having 'business class' , this being a relatively recent invention, so that casts some doubt upon the veracity of the rest of your memories.

Tercarley

21st Aug 2009, 17:55

Didnt I read somewhere on here that Roz Hanby was a school nurse now. I think it was here anyway. There were a lot of super girls around at the time as I remember!!!! She was just the one that got picked for the ads.

Tercarley

21st Aug 2009, 18:07

BOAC only ever had 1st or Economy. Perhaps it was another airline masquerading as BOAC. ??

Every airline has its share of tech problems. If it doesnt then it must be flying on a wing and a prayer not to have to divert. Perhaps in BA we thought of the pax safety rather than just go on!!!!

This complaint by the person who diverted this thread off the VC10 is rather like the pax at Easyjet on the TV that blame the airline delays for the weather problems .

keel beam

21st Aug 2009, 19:23

Roz Hanby may have been a BOAC employee but she was picked for advertising British Airways, such a lovely smile!

As an Air Cadet on Summer camp at Brize in 1974I

I was lucky, I was in the local ATC. In my school holidays I was a regular at Brize for "Air Experience" flights. I think I accumulated over 100 hours as a passenger on the VC10 (plus many hours flying in Belfasts and Britannias).

As the flights I went on were training flights there were endless touch and gos, 2 engine overshoots, 2 engine take offs, with the third engine gradually powered up (I guess that was a practice for 2 or 3 engine ferries?)

Occasionally we flew to different airfields.

The VC10 is brick built, and was so demonstrated twice in one flight I had.

It was a miserable blustery winters day at Brize, The pilots consisted of a Captain on secondment from the US Air Force and a trainee Co-Pilot. (plus the Flight Engineer)

As we were coming in to land, just about to flare, a strong crosswnid gust caught us. The left wing lifted and we started to drift to the right (the trainee pilot was flying it at the time) The aircraft recovered to wings levelish (I was told the Captain put a "boot full" of left rudder). I can only assume that the Co-Pilot panicked slightly and pushed the control column forward. There was a thump and the whole airframe juddered as we landed nose wheel first.

That little incident has been the closest I've been to an aircraft accident and that is close enough thank you very much!

After that landing we flew to RAF St Mawgan, where the weather was more pleasant. But on a landing there, the nose went down just on flare out, thump, judder again!.

I think the VC 10 is a beautiful aircraft and will be sad when it finally stops flying (anyone for VC 10 to the sky?)

The unmistakeable whine of the Conway turbines, music to my (going deaf!) ears.

I did do a bit of work on the VC10, but that was only when we had no 707s in the hangar.

KB

Captain Airclues

21st Aug 2009, 19:24

superspotter

BOAC would often operate extra flights when expat children were returning to school. I suspect that your flight was one of these. The flight number would have been the same, BA048.

Dave

BEagle

21st Aug 2009, 20:51

Didn't I read somewhere on here that Roz Hanby was a school nurse now.

Correct. She was the school nurse at the school my god-daughter attended - unfortunately I didn't know at the time....:ugh:

http://www.leaden-hall.com/international_files/internationalday.pdf

An erstwhile colleague of mine, who flew VC10s and Concorde for BOAC, confirmed that Roz was indeed a delightful, intelligent lady when she worked for the airline - and a perfect ambassador for the company in the pre-Ayling era.

Tercarley

21st Aug 2009, 21:25

BEagle! re the Leadenhall article:

They (BA) let her keep her uniform!!!!!! They always wanted them back. She must have had a tailor made one. Probably got it made specially at Sams in Honkers!!!!!!

DozyWannabe

21st Aug 2009, 23:11

FirstFiveEighth: You don't know just how wrong you are! When you find out, you will likely kick yourself.

As for the thread - great stuff! I was born just as BA were phasing the VC-10 out, but you can't deny what a gorgeous bird she is.

crewmeal

22nd Aug 2009, 04:38

I saw a photo the other day with the old BOAC colours but without the logo on it. What a mess. It was the worst thing BA ever did to the VC10 was to remove the gold BOAC and speedbird logo and replacing it with a blue 'British Airways' sticker. It spoilt the whole effect of the aircraft.

I only worked on it for a short time but I remember those days of sitting on bar boxes in the back galley listening to those Conways. In those days one of the flights it operated was the daylight Monarch from JFK - LHR. IMO it was the worst flight to operate because arriving back at night. Sometimes if the Capt was nice he would delay chocks by 5 mins so we could have an extra night!! A practice that still goes on today to enable premium payments.

Tercarley

22nd Aug 2009, 07:09

I cant remember - did it ever have to have one of those multi-coloured tails on it?Hope it was never on it.

superspotter

22nd Aug 2009, 09:44

No Tercaley, it never had the dubious pleasure of wearing the "world tails" and thank you once again Captain Airclues for the info. You were correct about the expat kids, in fact the only thing I can remember about the actual flight was that I was sat near the rear of the plane amongst all these boarding school types:eek: and they were throwing the pillows around the cabin at each other. I was getting fed up of receiving said pillows in me mush so after several of these pillows kept coming my way I retaliated and threw one back and promptly was the first person to be admonished by the cabin crew:uhoh:
I was about 14 at the time.....

Seat62K

22nd Aug 2009, 13:25

"Crewmeal",

That daylight VC10 flight from JFK to LHR was the last leg of a journey from the south Pacific; the aircraft would leave Los Angeles the previous evening for the five hour flight to New York.

I remember how quiet the newly-opened BOAC terminal at JFK was at that time of the day (Air Canada was the only other major resident, before it moved flights to La Guardia).

The sight of the VC10 through the angled terminal window was magnificent. Does anyone have a photo to hand of a VC10 at what is now Terminal 7?

crewmeal

22nd Aug 2009, 15:00

For a real trip down memory lane go to the BA Museum site. Plenty of nostalgia there, with a forward by Lord Marshall of Knightsbridge

British Airways Museum Collection (http://www.bamuseum.com/index.html)

ExSp33db1rd

24th Aug 2009, 10:58

Ref. the handling of the VC-10 (I never did )

As an F/O on the 707 - ex. Strats and Brits - I was appalled to fly with a Comet Captain converting to type, who had the temerity to actually criticise what I considered the World's most magnificent aeroplane (then ! )

He said that a public transport aeroplane should be capable of being flown by the Company's worst pilot on a day when he felt poorly - he reckoned that the Comet could, but that the 707 would turn around and bite you. True.

I guess the VC-10 would have filled his expectations.

I recall calling for taxy clearance at LHR one day, ATC made us wait for the passing of the first VC-10 scheduled service - flamboyantly martialled away with a salute from ? Guthrie ?. My Captain remarked that we were on the bum fleet now !

Happy days.

( except that I never forgave the VC-10 for taking over " our " Sydney postings !!! Had to wait until the 747 to get back. )

Tercarley

24th Aug 2009, 12:53

VC10 never had Sydney postings - if they had I would have been on one!!! Comets did though, I was on those as well. Perhaps you are mistaking one beautiful aeroplane for the other beautiful aeroplane.

I seem to remember flying on" round the world wests and easts" as we called them, a lot on the VC10, and they always went through Sydney and Melbourne. I cant believe there were postings there as well.

I went on the 1st Aussie posting in October 1976 on the 747 and they were the 1st postings to Oz since the 707 as I understood it.

Captain Airclues

24th Aug 2009, 13:36

NutLoose

24th Aug 2009, 14:08

Ohhh Dear poor Pathe, bless em, and it was the death knell of the VC10 to boot.

British Pathe - (VC10) (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=72887)

BTW do a search there is some cracking films of them on there.

Tercarley

24th Aug 2009, 15:22

Bit off topic but

Ah yes, the Steyne Bar (always smelt dreadful) and the discos at the Manly National basement dancing place. BBQs on that little beach (where I got a bush tick in my chest and didnt know until I got to Perth on a trip later that week) Taffys on the Beach, the Royal Motor Yacht club, the RSL at the end of the Manly Beach.

I liked the 1st posting in Melbourne but the subsequent ones (3 more) in Sydney were better for socializing though. The last one was the best I think and I left BA after I got home off that. My reirement party was in Sydney.

Seat62K

24th Aug 2009, 20:06

Discussion of the VC10 and Sydney reminded me of a photograph I saw many years ago of a BUA VC10 in Sydney. I assume it was a charter flight but can anyone recall more detail (e.g., date, route etc.)?

Many thanks.

ExSp33db1rd

25th Aug 2009, 06:08

I agree with Tercarly. There were no Aussie postings on the VC10 fleet. The 747 posting in 1976 would have been Melbourne. The first of my many postings was in 1978 when they moved to Sydney. What fun!!!

O.K. ! Memory ! I was on the last 707 posting before we pulled out, thought VC-10's took over the route then - can't remember about the posting, but as the 707 posting had been deemed no longer viable, I guess there was no chance of the VC-10 getting them.

Agree that 747's to Melbourne started them again

Tercarley

25th Aug 2009, 08:53

But didnt the 707 fleet have Hawaii postings as well?

VC10s took over the route to Oz but no postings. !!!!!! As I said we just flew round the world east and west about. They were 21 day trips possibly longer!!!!

ExSp33db1rd

26th Aug 2009, 10:49

But didnt the 707 fleet have Hawaii postings as well?

Yes. I was on one of the first ones, Summer 1961, we operated SFO - HNL - TYO v.v. The 707 took over from the Brit. 312, crews of which had sat for 3 months in HNL with nothing to do, awaiting each day for Pres. Eisenhower to sign some Air Service Agreement to allow them to operate SFO - HNL. When the agreement was finally signed, BOAC changed the type to the 707.

The RAF had a detachment on Hickam, 1 S/Ldr 2 F/Lt. and 3 s.a.c. servicing the Hastings that passed through en-route to the Atom Bomb testing ranges near Christmas Island.

The local school allowed the children out early on Thurdays, to see a tail-wheel aeroplane !

The RAF S/ldr. had to entertain the Chief of Air Staff and attendant A.D.C. on one visit, he took them to the Cannon Club, the US Army Officers Club inside Diamond Head. His entertainment allowance from the Air Ministry was 25c / day !

Our cabin crew were operating a Round the World Service, so had a couple of days 'slip' in HNL each way. The RAF had a water-ski boat - we had stewardesses. We reached an amicable arrangement. I first water-ski'd on the lagoon adjacent to the airport, which was later filled in to become the Reef Runway, 08R. In later years I used to tell my crew that I had learned to water-ski on this runway. They thought I was mad.

It was the era of the Magnificent Seven movie, there were 7 BOAC crews on the posting, the 7 S/O's adopted the theme tune from the film as 'our' signature tune !!

Came out of the Night Club in the International Market Place one early morning, stopped by the Police, did I know where I was ? Yes, Honolulu. Smart ass, this is Kalakaula Avenue, a 25 mph zone. Why aren't your lights on ? Why did you do a U turn, got your arm around your girl friend and I think you've been drinking ( correct !). Licence - wot's this, a Limey licence ? Suppose we call it $10 for speeding ? Done, and I don't need a receipt !!

Happy days.

I got married as a result of that posting. !!

Rainboe

26th Aug 2009, 16:17

I think I could just about cope with a Hawaii posting! I did 3 Sydney ones and thought they were just grand, but that was on 747. I always thought 707 got the best deal with the nicest and most exotic trips. On VC10s, the drawback of the aeroplane was being mainly Afrika Corps! I never liked it, and never did, and don't now. Thankfully now it is just a mountain top on a horizon!

Being brought up on Hawaii-50, I always thought it the most exciting place. I was overwhelmed to be on my first trip there, so I went onto Waikiki Beach near Diamond Head in 1972, hired a longboard and swam out pretending I knew what I was doing. Carefully watched the others and repeated, and I was away. Couldn't wipe the grin off my face- surfing off Diamond Head, and in Paradise!

ExSp33db1rd

26th Aug 2009, 22:44

Yes, the Honolulu posting was hard to take !! a single, 26 yr old, being paid to live there, a change of cabin crew every 3 days, with side trips to San Francisco and Tokyo in the middle of the Japanese economic, photographic, and electronic revolution ! The Ginza was exciting, too ! Narita hadn't been invented.

In those days the only hotels on Waikiki Beach were the Hilton Hawaiian Village, the pink Royal Hawaiian in the middle, and the Princess Moana at the other end. It is now wall to wall concrete high-rise.

The BOAC Base Captains' office was on the first floor of the BOAC 'shop', which was a 2-storey building on the corner of an intersection in the middle of Waikiki, and unbelievably that little shop is still there, all by itself - albeit a bit smarter now - totally overshadowed by all the high rise, the Real Estate must be worth zillions, it is currently the local Gucci store.

Now 75 I still managed to climb to the top of Diamond Head in June - I have the T-Shirt ! - the view is just as breathtaking nearly 50 years later - can't complain !

I can trace it all back to compulsory National Service of course, I deferred it as long as possible but was eventually dragged off kicking and screaming, I guess it gives real meaning to the phrase ' Don't Get Mad, Get Even ' ! I think I won.

Tercarley

27th Aug 2009, 14:04

On the VC10 Round the World trips we used to stay at the Reef. Nice place Honolulu but pricey to eat and drink there. I liked the next stop or the stop before that depending on which way you were going which was Fiji. My wife and I went on a fantastic boat trip to one of the islands around there. It was like being in paradise. Super barbeque, drinking and swimming.

Hotel in Fiji not so great though with terrible rooms, rusty old taps on the washbasin and no discernible hot water either. A friend of mine in QANTAS told me that he woke up one morning having been aware of something running across his pillow all night - to find rat droppings on the pillow. Same hotel. The sheets barely fitted the beds and Im told that they just turned them over to make them last 2 occupants.

Cant be as bad as the crew hotel in Bandar Seri Began though. I had a room there once where it was termed a suite for the Captain. It was termed that because it couldnt be let (the room that was supposed to be the sitting room) as there was a 8' x 4' peice of plaster board out of the ceiling. As I was on the Allowances and Accom committee at BALPA at the time went out looking for a better hotel the next day. It would appear that the hotel we were in was the "best" one.

When I rang down for glasses for crew party was offered something else that was a close pronunciation of glasses.

Its all changed there now though. Modern hotels etc.

Rainboe

27th Aug 2009, 15:14

I always thought it was the Golden Age of BOAC. When the natives used to salute the arrival and departure of the weekly BOAC flight! The Connies and Strats, discovering the world, Hawaii postings. I joined in 70 and discovered the world, but others had 'been there' before. I saw 747s in and learned my trade on the North Atlantic and loved it- but I do look enviously at the old pictures of early 707s and Strats and Navigators using Loran and starshots. That is when it was skill- miss Bermuda and you die!

ExSp33db1rd

28th Aug 2009, 08:03

The Strats. were welcomed to Kano by a Tribesman sat on a camel blowing the Nigerian equivalent of a Didgeridoo ! long horn, anyway.

I've just been chatting to one of my microlight students about navigation - not a major hazard in Northern NZ, most times you can see both coasts ! - and mentioned using a sextant in a 707, the reaction is usually, Oh Yeah, silly bugger, but this time I was surprised by the reaction - like, wot's a sextant !!

One dark and dirty night on the North Atlantic, was beavering away with all the modern aids known to Man, like Astro, Loran, Consol, when the door opened and a pax asked if he could have a look. Turned out he ferried light aircraft across. I asked him how he navigated ? He looked at me as if I'd crawled from under a stone, explained that there was a ship permanently stationed around 40 West, Ocean Station Charlie, and another near 20 West, which had beacons, and he had a radio compass, so he just tuned in Charlie and set off from Newfoundland. The ships were some 1,000 nm apart if I recall ? Maybe a bit less ?

Not long after I was involved in a crossing where Gander asked all the aircraft who could transmit, and get a response, on 121.5 to report position. Turned out that 4 light aircraft had set off and only one had suitable navigation equipment so the other 3 formated on him - and got seperated. Eventually one of them was located and turned towards Iceland and ditched about 40 nm South of the coast, and a chopper from Keflavik managed to fish him out. The other 3 were never heard from again.

Innocence is Bliss.

Rainboe

28th Aug 2009, 20:20

Navigation is indeed a totally lost art thanks to 30 years of INS. Sextants, periscope mounts, Loran C, Consol, Air Plots, Grid Navigation......all consigned to the bin. It is very sad, but inevitable. In the long hours over the Atlantic, I regale any young pilots unfortunate enough to fly with me with the story of Consol, how the Germans set it up during the war for N. Atlantic U-boats at Quimper, Vigo and somewhere else, and how it worked, and how I used to follow through how it was used, and listen to it counting the dots to get a radial. And how the British knew what it was straight away, and could have 'demolished' it, but found it really rather a splendid navigation aid anyway, so we happily used it as well. Nobody ever quite explained to me why the Spanish were setting up a German navigation aid in the war when they were neutral?

Aeroplanes used to be met by Hawaiian girls in grass skirts and flowers strategically covering bits that needed covering, and local agents in fezes. Nowadays we fly round people with mullets and singlets wearing running shorts that don't hide the budgerigar they obviously have hidden in their shorts, and thongs (sandals!). Something of the romance of modern aviation vanished when the masses were introduced to air travel! They demolished it.

GK430

28th Aug 2009, 21:29

I have often come across this attitude of the poster who said that BOAC crews and its successor were arrogant etc. It largely stems from jealousy that we had a marvellous airline. (And they secretly wanted to be in it!!!!!!)

I think you have your finger on the button there. My father who flew the
VC.10 back in 1960's always looked at BOAC and Pan Am crew with a slightly 'green' tinge! He loved the Juan Tripp uniform - cap in particular.

This thread should be re-nmaed; The BOAC VC.10 era/memories! Are there no other former VC.10 pilots left? Perhaps not. (Excl. RAF of course)
Great stories though!

I had to go and take another look at the 'Old Mans' Logbooks.
There is an entry for a flight in G-ARVB out of Boscombe in March '64 and under 'Duty' it states Noise Abatement.

How the decibels have reduced over the years;)

Spooky 2

28th Aug 2009, 22:24

I keep a sextant on my desk at work and someone asks, what's that? I repsond that it the new standby nav system for the 787. Lot's of blank stares I'm afraid.

Agree when looking back at my career, the nav days at Pan Am were some of the most interesting. I did not stay at Pan Am for long as the airline was shrinking as opposed to many of the others in the US at the time. No regrets, but I'm glad I can say I did it.

ExSp33db1rd

28th Aug 2009, 23:14

Consol ....

Quimper, Vigo and somewhere else

Bushmills, Lugo, Stavenger, Ploneis and Nantucket ( -. .- -. 194 Kc. )

Would count - say 35 dots and be up to about 15 dashes and the door would open and a raucous voice would shout ' anyone for a coffee ? ' Oh! for C---sakes, shut up ! start again..... one, two, three.........

One had to have a vague idea of ones' position, i.e. an Air Plot, as it was possible to get the same count from various positions around the station, or of course get another position line from a different source to resolve the ambiguity. Good fun - in retrospect !

Always seemed to get a bit off course due to an unexpected windshift around 49N / 10W coming 'up' to Lands End homebound, one Captain reckoned it was a glitch in the Isogonal of Mag.Var'n. at that point. Could be right. ( nothing to do with Consol of course. )

Rainboe

29th Aug 2009, 16:31

Yes, Bushmills. Did we really install a German navigation aid during the war? And Nantucket? Seems a very bizarre form of international collaboration. I suppose it stopped lots of planes and ships getting lost in the great wastes!

ExSp33db1rd

29th Aug 2009, 23:16

Nantucket and Bushmills were best from a reception point of view, I seem to recall, for no good reason that I can think of, and I think NAN was the only station on the USA side, certainly the only one serviceable throughout the 60's.

Loran was the primary aid of course, and on Strats and Brits, having matched the signals on a cathode ray tube one had then to switch to another visual mode, and literally count the blips along a base scale; on the 707 we had an EDO Loran receiver, and as one turned the knobs to match the signals so a series of mechanical digital numbers were turned, so that one could read off the result instantaneously.

It worked - most times - but on nights of poor reception the signals were hidden in the 'clutter', referred to as grass - 'cos that's what it looked like, and one of my early instructors gravely told me that I would have to carry a pair of scissors in my Nav. bag - to cut the grass !

Mearns Loon

2nd Sep 2009, 21:43

I was a regular passenger on the BOAC VC 10 flight to and from Dubai from late 1969 to mid 1971, at least four times a year on oil business. The VC10 went on to Karachi. Two memories stand out; the Refuelling stop at Beruit in 1969 with spent bullets and broken glass at the terminal building. All later refuelling stops were at Akrotiri. Secondly, the visits by BOAC aircrew to our oil camp barbecue in the desert outside Dubai on ?Saturday evenings which we had to put a stop to after those visits were reported in the UK press. Any Ex BOAC staff remember the desert visits?

Captain Airclues

2nd Sep 2009, 22:04

Mearns

Went to one of your bbq's on 27/06/70. Ended up back at the Carlton in the early hours. (not flyng til 30/6........honest). Happy days.

Dave

ExSp33db1rd

2nd Sep 2009, 22:56

Ahhhhhhhhh !! The Carlton ! and the sailing club just the other side of the bridge. Flt Eng, stubbed his toe on an object in the sand one day, proved to be a bl***y big Mercury outboard half-buried. He made a few enquiries at the club, traced the local, indigenous, owner who announced that he had bought another one and didn't want it anymore, so F/E whistled up his Stn.Eng mate and a Land Rover, and crated it up, stuck a crew label on it and loaded it into the hold that night back to LHR.

Saw him later, said once the sand had been washed off, it was as new.

Mearns Loon

3rd Sep 2009, 21:30

I went on in 1970 to take the Gulf Air charter flights , DC3, Skyvan and F28 to Azaiba , Oman and then on to Central and Southern Oman. I never got back to overnight at the Carlton as our company personnel were banned. Now I now know of a possible culprit of the alleged bad behaviour.

gruntie

21st Dec 2009, 17:33

No apologies for bringing this one back up. Rather sad to find my late brother's slide collection recently: including these taken at White Waltham in 1977. Maybe not so dramatic as some, but they've not seen the light of day since.

http://i49.tinypic.com/29qjjsw.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ns47s0.jpg

and this.......must be a replica?

http://i46.tinypic.com/s6t7cp.jpg

And finally, and just because I like it, the most elegant colour scheme of all, departing Entebbe around 1970:

http://i48.tinypic.com/mbmurm.jpg

Edthedruid

15th Feb 2010, 06:07

Can anybody tell me what the departure frequency of the BA591 LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN-MEL flights would have been in 1969?

simufly

15th Feb 2010, 07:38

Daily about 10.00 ex LHR .

Captain Airclues

15th Feb 2010, 08:30

Edthedruid

BA591

Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday.

London d 1200

New York a 1340 d 1500

Los Angeles a 1750 d 1900

Honolulu a 2230 d 2330

Fiji a 0350 d 0435

Sydney a 0650

All time local. The BA591 did not go to melbourne in 1969.

Dave

Jumbo Driver

15th Feb 2010, 09:20

My scheduling records only go back to 1971, so I realise I am not answering quite the question you asked, but the BA591 service out of LHR by VC10 in April 1971 was daily to JFK at 10:00.

On Wednesdays and Fridays it appears to have terminated in JFK and the full Pacific route was served on the remaining five days.

HTH

JD
:)

Captain Airclues

15th Feb 2010, 11:40

JD

The JFK terminators were added, and the departure time changed, at about the same time as the BA591 service was extended to Melbourne (mid 1970?). In 1969 the only daily JFK services were the BA501, BA505 and BA509. In 1973 the departure time from LHR became 1300 but now the Monday and Saturday service terminated at JFK. The arrival time at Sydney was 1030 and at Melbourne was 1300.

Of the 15 BA591 LHR departures in my logbook the earliest is 0950 (sched 1000) on 23/2/72 and the latest is 1303 (sched 1300) on 26/3/73.

Dave

Jumbo Driver

18th Feb 2010, 13:31

Of the 15 BA591 LHR departures in my logbook the earliest is 0950 (sched 1000) on 23/2/72 and the latest is 1303 (sched 1300) on 26/3/73.

Dave

Dave, that's rather strange - because the VC10 trip descriptions for period 28 show that trip (W23Feb72 Trip 70 SYD) as departing by BA591 at 1300z to JFK STA 2050z. The trip was 81:33 CrHrs and went LHR/JFK/LAX/HNL/NAN/SYD/(NAN)HNL/LAX/JFK/LHR, arriving back 15 days later in Period 71, on W08Mar72 at 2150z at LHR. Nice trip, by the way - for senior trash or a Nav trainee... ;)

So are you sure you have that date right - or maybe I have misread the bid package ...

The departure you mention on 26Mar73 agrees with the trip description (Trip 84 MEL), which show BA591 ex-LHR at STD 1200z.

JD
:)

PS I really must get out more ... :8

WHBM

18th Feb 2010, 14:03

JD

The JFK terminators were added, and the departure time changed, at about the same time as the BA591 service was extended to Melbourne (mid 1970?).
The new Melbourne airport opened on 1 July 1970, and I think BOAC were in there pretty much from the opening day. The old airport at Essendon (longest runway 6,300 feet) was quite unsuited to long-haul jets.

Jhieminga

18th Feb 2010, 14:53

Could I perhaps ask for some assistance from the knowledgeable ones on this thread? If you haven't seen it yet, I run a VC10 website at www.VC10.net (http://www.VC10.net) and I would very much want to include information on the routes flown by the VC10 on it. I have the BOAC summer timetables for the Standard and Super for 1968 but nothing else. I get the impression that some people here have more information about VC10 routes than I have, so....... if you're willing to share, please PM or e-mail (see profile or website). Thanks :ok:

wayoutwest

20th Feb 2010, 21:39

hi everybody.i see postings was mentioned and wondered how many postings BOAC/BA had and where they were and how long they lasted.also did they second their crews to other airlines i was thinking about gulf air started with VC10 in the mid 70s did BA use thier crews for training. mike.

suninmyeyes

21st Feb 2010, 21:20

Melbourne and Honolulu postings have already been mentioned. There was also a Hong Kong posting in the 1960s. The postings lasted about 3 months.

The last postings to go were the Sydney postings in the 1990s. The 747-400 took over the route from the 747 Classics. Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember there were just not enough volunteers from the 747-400 pilots and the Sydney base closed. For the 747-Classic guys they would come back with some very good allowances saved and the posting was popular, especially in the UK winter. The 747-400 pilots were making very good money on long range payments at the time and for them there was no financial incentive to stay in Sydney for 3 months.

Capot

21st Feb 2010, 22:25

Wayoutwest....

The Gulf Air VC10s were captained almost totally if not totally by BA pilots who had pased their BA sell-by date, so a grand group of characters appeared in Bahrain, Harry Mills and Bismark Briggs to name but two...OK, the only two names I can remember... Harry (and one or two others) via flying BN2A/SC7/F27 in Abu Dhabi, where he went first when BA said he was too old. Then some others, not ex-BA, joined them drawn from Gulf Air's other fleets, eg the F27/Skyvans, after retraining.

WHBM

21st Feb 2010, 22:54

A 1971 BOAC timetable I have here gives the departure time of BA591 to New York and on to Australia as 1100 until 24 April, then 1200. Although this was the time change date it was not the only reason, as the flight was now 2 hours later at New York and beyond.

It was very closely shadowed on certain days by Qantas 531, a 707 which left Heathrow at 1145, and made all the same stops apart from serving San Francisco instead of LAX. At just about all the stops the two aircraft were on the ground together, the Qantas was 15-20 minutes ahead of the BOAC summer times throughout. I wonder if they used to keep in radio contact along the way. Also makes you realise the performance of the two types was identical, certainly as far as scheduling was concerned.

Captain Airclues

22nd Feb 2010, 04:11

Jhieminga

I have most of the BOAC/BA timetables from the 60's and 70's. I'm in Australia until mid March but will contact you when I get home.

Cheers

Dave

arem

22nd Feb 2010, 07:06

THe Sydney posting ceased because of schedule changes with the coming of the 744. The route structure was streamlined and Auckland was withdrawn from the network. Perth,Sydney and Melbourne were all terminators and fed over SIN & BKK. Trip lengths came down to 8 days instead of up to 16 days, the postings ceased never to come back.

Edthedruid

22nd Feb 2010, 10:50

Thanks for the information re my question, which came about due to my trying to obtain my National Insurance number, one question being date of departure from UK.

My memory was that I received a message at work on a Monday "tickets in mail, depart for NZ next Monday". Memories of being poured onto the overnight Perth-London train on a Sunday night by a bunch of inebriated haggi with half a bottle of rum in one pocket and "something to go with it" in the other and departing 1300 on the Monday on BA591. Found my old passport which says I arrived JFK on the 25 Nov 1969, which was a Tuesday. A stamp in said passport reads "alien to be removed from US by 26 Nov etc etc" and BA591 is written below. Flew on to LAX, overnighted and departed for NZ on Fairyland Airways flt TE551 arriving Auckland on 28 Nov.

I am proud/pleased to be able to say that I have flown in a VC 10, if only once.

Brit312

22nd Feb 2010, 16:57

"Wayoutwest"

When Gulf Air took delivery of their Standard VC-10s from BOAC/BA they did indeed use BA instructors both F/Es and Pilots to train their crew who came from every operator of the VC-10.

After base training at least some BA F/Es were used to operate the route initially , but it was so enjoyable that you had to be quite senior to get the chance.

If we are talking about postings then Sydney was a very traditional place for BOAC posting as Comet 4s and then I believe the B707 had postings there.
Also whilst in that part of the world we better remind everybody that Concorde used to have a posting in Singapore.

pjac

23rd Feb 2010, 01:08

"And then again, if one considered the involvement of B.O.A.C.A.C. or "Associated Companies", there were postings/crew training from the 50's until the end of the last century.

howiehowie93

23rd Feb 2010, 13:56

what a Great post - brought back some memories of lots of flying backwards!

I used to fly in them when I was the RAF mainly to Cyprus & Decimommanu initially, then to Saudi & Turkey on the aftermath to Gulf War 1 when the Sqns I was on were carrying out the No-Fly-Zone Patrols out of Incirlik & Dahran (then later PSAB). No real in flight meals as such - a white cardboard box with a packed lunch and lots of rounds of white plastic cups with orange squash in it!

I stood near the end of the runway in Akrotiri once as the twice weekly Trooping Flight took off towards me - I've never been able to forget it - very beautifull, all white fuselarge and wings with no engines in sight!

It will always be the "Great Big White Gozhomi Bird" to me and many others too.

Thanks for your posts.

regards
H

617SquadronDB

23rd Feb 2010, 22:55

I had the privelage of touring a VC-10 flight deck in Norfolk last year. The example was flown by 10 Squadron out of RAF Brize Norton. My, what a huge cockpit!

I must say, this may be the most beautiful British-built aircraft ever.

1960sPAX

21st Aug 2010, 21:50

Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed reading this thread and the reminiscences from those that flew this aircraft. I used to watch it flying over our house to land in the 1960s and my father and I would repeat that it was the most beautiful bird in the sky.

More importantly, this aircraft is as important a part of british postwar manafacturing and engineering history as concorde and the comet, and should be remembered as often.

hawkerjet

21st Aug 2010, 22:41

My first VC-10 flight was in 1966, Boston - Heathrow. I owe it to that crew for my start in aviation. They invited me up to the cockpit during flight, I was hooked ever since. I still have vivid memories about that special day. I also remember receiving leather logbooks and metal wings from BOAC. I still have them stashed away at home. If I ever strike it rich, I would restore a VC-10 and fly it around the world, just like Travolta did with the 707. I couldn't think of a better personal jet for me, and I fly private jets :ok::ok:
At one time I was even looking at sponsorship to restore a VC-10 and use it to proof the Galileo GPS system, but that never materialized. .......

D120A

22nd Aug 2010, 06:53

The current '10' series of UK car numberplates offers the opportunity of obtaining some 'VC10' ones. However, from the DVLA site I see that VC10 JET, VC10 BAC, VC10 RAF are all unobtainable, presumably all sold. Who has them? Come on you lucky people, own up!

If they haven't been sold, but have been held back for auction, the VC10 community has a forthcoming unique opportunity to solve the Government's deficit problem at a stroke.:ok:

Old-Duffer

23rd Aug 2010, 05:22

You could try:

VC10 BZN
VC10 SQN
VC10 PAX

and if you didn't like the old girl:

VC10 YUK
VC10 UGH
VC10 RIP

or if you were crew

VC10 ALM
VC10 ENG
VC10 NAV
VC10 COP
VC10 CPT
VC10 STD

Of course some letters eg Z and Q are used for Eire and exports/imports or some such but there will be ingenious ways round it.

O-D

Proplinerman

23rd Aug 2010, 06:41

I remember VC10s so well from the first half of the 1970s, when they were operating transAtlantic flights through Manchester. I think those aircraft were all Supers, but I also got to see all the standard aircraft through visits to Heathrow.

Photos of some surviving VC10s:

JetPhotos.Net Photo » XR807 (CN: 827) United Kingdom - Royal Air Force (RAF) Vickers VC-10 C.1K by Michael Blank (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6625374)

JetPhotos.Net Photo » A40-AB Oman - Royal Flight Vickers VC-10 by Michael Blank (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6625314&nseq=1)

JetPhotos.Net Photo » A40-AB Oman - Royal Flight Vickers VC-10 by Michael Blank (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6621922&nseq=2)

JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-ARVM (CN: 815) British Airways Vickers VC-10 by Michael Blank (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6125757&nseq=3)

JetPhotos.Net Photo » G-ASGC (CN: 853) British Overseas Airways Corporation (BOAC) - Cunard Vickers Super VC-10 by Michael Blank (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6718806&nseq=40)

Personally, I prefer propliners, but I can see that the VC10 was a supremely elegant airliner. Never flew on one, but I believe they were very comfortable.

Jhieminga

25th Aug 2010, 07:10

Proplinerman, the first photo shows XR807, which was scrapped last month. There are still 13 other VC10s flying with 101 Sqn though.

D120A, I might know who has one of those plates but will have to check. No chance of him selling it though ;)

FLCH

25th Aug 2010, 15:44

I remember being a young punk of 12 or so and took a trip from London to Montreal in a BOAC VC-10 with a stop in Shannon, about all I recall was how green the fields were coming into Shannon.

Later I asked if I could visit the flight deck, the stewardess (back then) asked me if I was ATC well of course I was !! I was in the Air Training Corps ... well after the confusion was sorted out, I got to go up front for a visit, ths captain told me he had over 14,000 hours and really enjoyed making a living this way.

Funny now, it's come full circle, I too now have over 14,000 hours and I'll be flying a trip to Shannon tomorrow, albeit from the "wrong" side of the Atlantic, and I'll get to see those green fields once again.

Ahhh memories of a mis-spent youth......

Proplinerman

25th Aug 2010, 20:05

I remember a visit to the flight deck of a BEA Viscount in 1964, on a flight from LHR to Biarritz via Bordeaux. Quite impossible now of course.

jamier

25th Aug 2010, 21:30

Watched a VC10 come into lossie about a week or 2 weeks ago, beautiful sight and beautiful noise! Couldnt believe how quick they can climb on the way out!

blue up

26th Aug 2010, 07:35

Not sure if it has already been posted on here (13 pages, not enough time).

GJD Services Ltd, aviation salvage & maintenance - News Release 5 (http://www.gjdservices.co.uk/News-Release-5.html)

Flying Lawyer

12th Sep 2010, 10:24

BOAC Flight 775 (Bombay-LHR) was hijacked between Bahrain and Beirut on the 9th September 1970. After landing at Beirut to refuel, the aircraft was flown to Dawson's Field a desert strip near Amman in Jordan.

The three hijackers were supporters of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and wanted to pressure the British government to free Leila Khaled, a member of the PFLP. Khaled had been overpowered during a failed hijacking of an El Al flight on the 6th September and was in custody in London.

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh151/Lupine1212/LeilaKhaled.jpg

The 105 passengers and 9 crew joined hostages from two other hijacked aircraft, already at Dawson’s Field. Over the next days some hostages were moved to a hotel in Amman and some were released.

http://www.vc10.net/History/Images/VC10desert1.jpg

http://www.vc10.net/History/Images/VC10desert2.jpg

http://www.vc10.net/History/Images/VC10desert3.jpg

On the 12th September, anticipating a military strike, the hijackers decided to leave Dawson’s Field. They blew up the VC10, followed by the hijacked TWA 707 and SwissAir DC-8, and released those hostages still at Dawson’s Field.

http://www.vc10.net/History/Images/VC10burning.jpg

The last hostages were released at the end of September in exchange for Leila Khaled and three prisoners from Switzerland.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Leila_Khaled_in_Damascus.jpg
Leila Khaled in Damascus after her release from Britain

The relatively undamaged tail of the VC10 was retrieved and the horizontal stabiliser was apparently used as a spare.

http://www.vc10.net/History/Images/VC10tail.jpg

The captain of the VC10 was Cyril Goulborn.
I don’t know the names of the F/O or F/E.

Was anyone here a member of the BOAC crew?
Or involved in any way?

.