Taking a job in WA, what are some of the cons

[avantgarde77]

Hi All ,

ive just completed my CPL about 200 hours logged, have a night rating , twin endorsement and in the process of completing IREX.

Have been offered a job in WA doing scenic flights to get some hours up , what are some of the cons to watch out for with operators , this guy is paying around $20 per hour on wages.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

[the wizard of auz]

depends on who your working for. $20 PH is pretty poor unless your getting a retainer and some accom as well.
PM me for an honest appraisal.

[Capt Claret]

My first paid work as a commercial pilot, in late 1984, paid $20 per hour ..... airborne, it was also joy-flying.

No flight for the day, no pay for the day.

[the wizard of auz]

things haven't changed much. :ugh:

[The Green Goblin]

The cons - 2 x Derby based operators for a start.

$20 per hour is a slap in the face after the events of last year, unless of course it is based on 45 hours duty per week which is then a reasonable first aviation job.

My first job was $35 per flying hour with retainer.

[Green gorilla]

Back in 93 I was getting 150 for a days work 3 to 4 hours flying and around 6 hours duty on average.

[capt_akun]

"$20 per hour is a slap in the face after the events of last year"

Totally agrees with this comment. Also, you need to look at whether you are hired as a casual pilot, or "sub-contractor". If you are hired as a subcontractor, then really, it's actually less then 20 dollar because you'll have to pay tax yourself.

Also, is it 20 per flying hour? per duty hour? per "working hour"<-- sounds silly, but some company expect you to do work/maintenance job around the premises, and you won't be paid!:mad:

Now, how many hours are they promising you'll do? Are they providing accommodation and food? Because if not. Then you'll be hard done in trying to support yourself if they are paying you flying hour. Just imagine you get only 3-4 hours worth of flying that week. In a remote area, that is pretty much all your groceries pay!!!:ugh:

HHOOOOWWEEEEEVVVEEERRR!!......

At the moment, the industry is again, not the same as last year. So, given the work opportunity is very sacred at the moment. You'll need to make the choice yourself and weigh up the short term benefit and cons.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey 'Avant'.....

You don't say where you're from - e.g. I would not transfer to WA from anywhere for a job paying $20 per hour - unless it was for a 40 hr week.

AS has been pointed out, if your 'job' is $20 per flying hour - then stay where you are and try and find something closer to home, where the 'board' is cheaper than trying to pay rent elsewhere.

Most 'scenics' would run for only an hour or so....(City and beaches, etc)
If you get only one 'scenic' a day/week - you'll starve.:eek::eek:

But, if you can afford to, and want to come over for a holiday - its a GREAT place!!!:ok:

[Checkboard]

Award (http://www.afap.org.au/files/RROI2261PX/Pilots%20GA%20AFAP.pdf) rate:

See Clause 13.2 (which includes minimum hours per job etc.)
Salary for a full time pilot, aircraft up to, but not including (UTBNI) 1360 kg is $31,489.

( $31,489 / 800 ) times 1.25 = $49.20 per hour.

As you're new to aviation, I thought that you would like to know what the legal minimum rate actually is, before you decide to accept a job like this.

[capt_akun]

Checkboard, Now you brought this up. This actually reminded me of something I know. With that award wage, Western Australian isn't included in that award (not legally upheld in WA). Rather, they have their seperate system, in which, they don't have an actual "pilot award wage". Which means, under their system you are actually just a non-award worker.

And I believe the number is like 13odd dollar as a casual person. (That is just my poor memory has an impression of, if it is wrong. Please someone correct me).

Give ATO a call, to find out the exact number and entitlement. But, I was in a similar situation before, and that above, is what I got told...

[mdt001]

I pay my house cleaner $22/hr.

[oil additive]

Hey guys, you reckon $20/hour is bad... some companies in WA are still paying their 1st year apprentices around $9/hour. In fact that very same company started me as an AME just after the last recession on $12.65/hour! Needless to say I didn't stick around for long. There are some real cockroaches out there (those in WA will know who I'm talking about) that don't care about attracting and keeping good staff, they just want to line their own pockets and try and conquer the world... or so they think :eek:

Find an operator close to home that's going to look after you mate, not just try to sc**w you over.

End of rant :)

[RR RB211]

And a tip in case it hasn't been covered already - $20 per flying hour, may mean wheels off to wheels on time. Not engine running time.

Just clarifying for avantgarde in case they may not have been aware of this technicality.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Geez, in 1990 I was getting paid $36/hr peddling a C402 around as a casual pilot on charter work.

The industry has come a long way in 18 yrs!

Dr :8

[Checkboard]

With that award wage, Western Australian isn't included in that award (not legally upheld in WA). Rather, they have their seperate system, in which, they don't have an actual "pilot award wage". Which means, under their system you are actually just a non-award worker.

And I believe the number is like 13odd dollar as a casual person. (That is just my poor memory has an impression of, if it is wrong. Please someone correct me).

Give ATO a call, to find out the exact number and entitlement. But, I was in a similar situation before, and that above, is what I got told...

Hmmmm told by your employer? :hmm:

I haven't lived in Australia for six years now, but as I recall the Pilots award was a federal award arbitrated by the Industrial Relations Commission - and as such applied to the entire country. Unless the new workchoices legislation has changed that (or WA has finally seceded from the Federation!) it should still apply.

correct rate:

( $33,148 / 800 ) times 1.25 = $51.79 per hour.

[gettin' there]

I haven't lived in Australia for six years now, but as I recall the Pilots award was a federal award arbitrated by the Industrial Relations Commission - and as such applied to the entire country.


I thought so too. So before I went to my boss to try and work out a better deal, I thought I'd give industrial relations a ring (think its called fair pay commission or something now). They said that no aviation company is boud by the award unless they are a signatory to it. In other words, they dont have to pay you the GA award unless they have signed up with the AFAP to say that they will pay the award. :ugh:

If they haven't agreed to pay GA award then you just revert to the standard fedral minimum wage which is pretty easy to find online.

Suffice to say my pay negotiation didn't turn out as well as i'd have liked. :{

Disclaimer:
I'm no lawyer and I could be very wrong.

[BUSH PILOT]

gettin' there,

is there anywhere/anyway you can find out who has agreed to pay the GA award and who hasn't? Do AFAP or someone keep a list/database?

Would be interesting to see and quite handy when it comes to job hunting

[Checkboard]

The respondents to the Award used to be listed in the Appendix of the paper copy. You could always join the Union, $5/week, and you will get copies of the Award and advice, legal protection etc. If $5/week is too much for you, you can resign after you have the info you need (not saying that is a particularly moral course of action. :hmm: )

[The Green Goblin]

Bit of feed back from the lads in KX along with a few in the know hiring them, lots of newly minted pilots hanging around up there right now waiting for work, so leave the egos behind and let the good 'ole games and dirty tricks begin :{

[no oil pressure]

Just the kind of good news I was looking forward to hearing. About a week away from leaving for KNX.

Gotta be in it to win it! :}

[tiger19]

heres one of the cons champ. A mate of mine who is/was a pilot in WA rang me yesterday to tell me that he had been fired from this GA aviation/charter mob in a remote part of WA because he insisted on taking leave to be at the birth of his first child. word is starting to get around on who the operator is, but mate, this is how some GA operators treat their pilots. Absolutely bloody disgusting. This CP then a few days after he sacked this pilot (who then left town) sent him an apology letter saying he was stressed out and sorry for sacking you and unfortunately you have been replaced however congratulations on the birth of your new baby!!! hang your head in shame mate. when people do dog acts like that to another human being, your name will not be forgotten. karma my friend

[the air up there]

mdt001, you can afford a house cleaner. Can't wait to get a job like yours.:}

Like the others have said, be wary of how they calculate hourly pay. MR time, Start up to shut down, sign on to sign off. If someone is paying $20hr to sit in the cockpit then thats a disgrace. There would have to be one hell of a benefits package.

I hear there are company's that are paying the basic pilots award (dayVFR single engine), but then charge an arm and a leg for rent/utilities. The pilots at one worked it out that they lost 1/3 of their wage back to the company. And that was during the pilot shortage, god help them now.

It also went the other way, pilots would ring up and ask for a job. After going through all the formalities of resume, phone interview etc they turn around and say I want this this and this, which was more than the CP got paid. Interview over.

So as everyone says, when they ask what will you work for, the answer is the award. Unless they have a good offer for you, free/cheap acc, cheap food, cheap utilities. That can add up to $12k+ pain the hand, $15k or more before tax. There is alot to be said for fringe benefits I reckon.

[Joker 10]

There is a simple formula that always applies no matter what the circumstances , " Price is what the market will bear " .

[Hasherucf]

Wages for an apprentice AME
Hey guys, you reckon $20/hour is bad... some companies in WA are still paying their 1st year apprentices around $9/hour. In fact that very same company started me as an AME just after the last recession on $12.65/hour!


I did my apprenticeship on $15 an hour , I was the best paid in the class for that year in fixed wing , the guys from heliwest where on $20 first year. Lowest was $9.60 an hour in Kununnara... I let you guess the operator . Then people wonder why LAME's numbers are deceasing

[no oil pressure]

you guys were really hard done by.

I was on just under $6 an hour as a first year and $14 an hour in my forth year.

[climingflightlevels]

As far as I was aware there is a federal pilots award which covers all general aviation pilots in Australia. Obviously I may be wrong as I still know of operators that do not pay what I took to be a compulsory award wage. It can be found here: Find an award | Fair Work Australia (http://www.fwa.gov.au/index.cfm?pagename=awardsfind&notice&norightcol&awd=792332&awdprefix=AP&awd_name=Pilots'%20(General%20Aviation)%20Award%201998&displaytype=RTFVersion) . This is slightly different from the AFAP one where only members are covered.

I am happy to be pointed in the direction as to where it says it doesn't cover all general aviation operators in Australia as I have only glanced over it. It took me a while to track it down when I had a problem with pay rates a while ago. Hope this is of some help.

[PlankBlender]

6. WHO IS BOUND BY THIS AWARD?

The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Appendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2, and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.



5.2 This award relates to the industry of persons employed as pilots in any capacity whether full-time, part-time or casual in General Aviation excepting Helicopters and Aerial Agriculture operations.

So for the legal eagles among us, does that mean because a pilot (whose employer is not in Appendix A) is bound by it his employer is also?

[A31J]

I too would like to know if, where an Operator is NOT listed here, they are then free to offer/not offer whatever they think is a fair thing.
Surely not?!

Can an operator, not listed here, offer, and pay only 4 weeks leave to a pilot on full-time for example?

It's one thing to be paying above the award salary for ones classification, but that doesn't negate the other provisions in the award..does it?
:confused:

[Aerodynamisist]

Would some one please care to name the opperator, I'm a long way from wa but I need to know so I can bin any resumes that happen to come accross my desk with them listed.

[chimbu warrior]

some companies in WA are still paying their 1st year apprentices around $9/hour.

Are these the same maintenance outfits that charge $90 per hour for working on your aircraft?

Not a bad racket........:=

[gutso-blundo]

Right.
In my first GA job, I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day in an old, falling apart C210, and pay aircraft owner for permission to come to work, and when we got back, our CP would kill us, and dance about on our graves singing "Hallelujah".

This whole business is becoming a case of life imitating art... :suspect:

...At least I had a shoebox to live in - looookshurry!

[Dj Dave]

Getting There

The award is Federal as of 1 January 2010. EVERY employer i Australia is bound by it.

The place to call is Fair Work Australia to get what you deserve.

look for this : http://www.cciwa.com/getfile.aspx?Type=document&ID=57439&ObjectType=3&ObjectID=30295

4.
Coverage
4.1
This award covers employers throughout Australia of air pilots and those employees.

[max_ld]

The General Aviation Pilots award is a federal award. All employers must pay salaries in accordance with the award otherwise they breach federal laws and can face substantial fines. The award is clear at to rates of pay for casual, part time and full time staff. The award also indicates the minimum hours of pay for casual staff when required for duty. The award has changed very little over the years and many employers that have chosen not to pay in accordance with the award are now hesitant to employ staff mindfull of the fact that legal action could be taken againts them with respect to pay and conditions.