Clarification regarding all the licenses and the order

[Nithro]

Hello,

I hope this hasn't been asked before, I tried to search, but had no actual tags..

I intend to become a helicopter pilot and a mate of mine (that's already a pilot) sent me here. I read the stickied thread about frequently asked questions, and got some info from it, but not everything.

As I got it, I need CPL(H) in order to make a living by flying. I also got the impression that I need instrumental rating in order to get jobs. Perhaps instructor license as well?

Am I right so far?

Anyway, do you have to get the PPL(H) in order to qualify for the CPL(H)? Can I go straight for CPL(H) from zero experience? Should I get instrumental rating and instructor previligies right on? Is it impossible to find a job without it?
I really don't want to end up with 300,000 $ in debts without a job.

Ratings. Could someone explain this to me? What is a rating? How does it differ from a license? The picture I have of a "rating" is that it's something additional, but not big enough to call itself a license. I sort of see ratings as stuff like PADIs smaller courses such as dry suit diving, cold water diving, cave diving and so on. Open water and advanced open water are equivalent to licenses. Anyway, that probably only makes sense to divers.

FAA/JAA/CAA

What is this? Is FAA something british (a British education modell perhaps?), and CAA American?
I read JAA somewhere, but couldn't find the meaning of it.

EDIT: I just found something on google. FAA (in this case), is it short for Federal Aviation Administration? If so, the other AA's (CAA & JAA), what aviation administrations are they?

Pros and cons between FAA/JAA/CAA?


With these things clearified my searching will be a lot easier, cause then I know what I'm looking for.

Additional hints and pointers are greatly apprieciated.

Best regards,
Måns

[Whirlygig]

Hi Mans, (sorry, UK keyboard)

You can embark on an integrated course which will take you from zero to CPL(H). There are not many around. Or, you can get a PPL(H), hour build, take commercial theory exams and take CPL(H) course and test. This is much more common.

A CPL(H) is required in order to earn money but there is little, if no work, as a basic CPL(H).

A PPL(H) is a licence as is a CPL(H). Instrument and instructor are Ratings as are type-ratings which qualify you to fly the different types of helicopter.

The CAA is the UK aviation authority, JAA is European (and the CAA is part of it) whilst FAA is the American equivalent.

It is best to get licence from the country's authority in which you wish and are entitled to work.

And yes, you could easily end up with thousands in debt to train. Sadly.

Cheers

Whirls

[Nithro]

Thanks for your answer.

Nice to have ratings defined finally.
If I have, let's say 50 hours of instrumental rating-flying-time in a Robinson R-22, and the job I apply to is to fly a Sikorsky S-92. Is my 50 hours in the Robinson wasted? Do they only "count" towards flying Robinson choppers?

Both of my mates that are pilots went to the Bristow Training Academy (former heli adventures). They offer an integrated course, ab initio to CPL(H).

Here is their pricelist
Bristow Academy formerly Helicopter Adventures Inc - Helicopter Flight Training (http://www.heli.com/student-services/2-tuition-and-fees-JAA.php)

Around 72,000$ for CPL(H) as I can see it. Did I miss something? I refer to the "COMBINED FAA/JAA CPL(H) COURSE ab initio".

If I take that course, is that enough for a start you believe?

Best regards,
Måns

[murdock]

Unless you go military or have a **** load of money, you dont have much choice in what type of aircraft you will do your ratings in and what they will count for with regards to future job prospects. Highly unlikely to go from a R22 to S92, so I wouldnt worry about that just yet.

As far as I have heard there is about a year waiting list for the JAA CPL(H) course at Bristow Training Academy. Although, given current economic climate that could be changing with students pulling out.

The combined course will get you a FAA and JAA CPL(H). Like Whirls said, you gotta decide where in the world you are gonna be working for the license to be used.

I believe as well, that since the J1 visa for the U.S. flight schools is being withdrawn, you will only have 6 months to work in the States on your American license, if you choose to get it.

Price sounds about right that you read. None of this is cheap, and is only gonna be getting harder each day as jobs are being cut worldwide. Spend 12-18 months at school, and you come out with licenses that will not get you employed. If you did want to work back in Europe, i.e. the North Sea, which did have good job prospects in the past, then you would also need your JAA Instrument rating, which will set you back another 40,000 or so.

Ask yourself where you want to work and then go on the path from there.

[Nithro]

Helicopter Academy is offering a ab initio -> CPL(H) with CFI (What's this? Commercial flight instructor?) course that will get you employed at Bristow for $65,000. Currently, the dollar is strong, but hopefully it'll change.

I don't think the contingent waiting list will be a problem, as I finnish my current studies the 12th of june this year. That gives me some time to get the money, and kill some of the huge waiting, if there is such. Might have a contact that'll help me.

Why do I have to certificate myself where I would like to fly? Both of my pilot friends went to an American school, and one of them is working in Sweden, with sea rescue. The other one is currently unemployed, but he worked in Greenland, and he has worked in other places as well, think it was somewhere near Colombia.
That kind of contend to youre statement. On what ground are you saying that?

(Note: I'm not being offensive, rather grateful, I just want things really clear)

I don't know where I want to work yet. I have no preferences as it is now. All I want to do is to become a pilot, when I'm a pilot I want to pay my debts, and earn some hours. THEN I'll consider where I want to work. I take nothing for granted. I expect the worst conditions ever imaginable as for a start of my carreer.

There is no way for me to tell where I want to work this early. I tried, but I can not.

However, this $65,000 course seems to be my best alternative right now.

This is a part of the mail I recieved from Tom McDermott, the manager of Helicopter Academy.
The key is getting enough training money to get the hours that you need to get a job. We have a $65,000 program that get’s you from where you are now to a job flying for us.


I'll be contacting the school my friends went to. They strongly recommend it. I'll get in touch.

Måns

[Pandalet]

You need to have a license that corresponds to what you're flying. If you're flying a UK-registered aircraft, for example, you either need a UK (or JAA) license, or a validated foreign license (which is basically a local license issued on the basis of a foreign one). There are conversion procedures, but converting any foreign CPL to a JAA one involves doing the entire ground school and a flight test, as an absolute minimum; if you don't have the requisite experience, you'll need to do some flight training, too.

Consider where you can get a work permit for; holding an Australian license is not much use if you have no right to live or work in Australia. If you had lots of experience, and a company somewhere wanted you, they'd help you get whatever local paperwork was necessary; as a fresh baby CPL, your chances are low to start with, so requiring extra effort to employ isn't going to work in your favour. Considering the current climate, I'd say most places are going to be looking to employ local girls first before they import foreign pilots; getting a work permit is also going to be harder.

The only school outside of Europe that does JAA qualifications is Bristows, as far as I know. Thus, if you want to (or can only) work in Europe, you either need to go to Bristows or a European school, or accept the additional expense and effort involved in converting a foreign license.

Be careful when schools offer you employment. Do you get a signed contract at the beginning, or is it a case of "if you're good enough, and we have a space when you qualify, we'll employ you. If you have a work permit." ? Remember, they're trying to sell you something - I'm not saying there aren't good offers out there, but $65k is a lot of wonga; I'd want to be damn sure I was spending it wisely! Is the Bristow's zero to CFI (flight instructor) a JAA or FAA license? If it's FAA, what are you going to do when your visa runs out (assuming you don't already hold work/settlement rights for the USA)?

Quite frankly, if you're in a position to raise $65k by June, then you're certainly not short of options.

[Nithro]

I messed up two schools, sorry. The school Im likely to go to is Bristow, and that's not the one offering employment for 65000.

Bristow Training Academy, Florida is probably where I'll certify myself.

Please tell me about the VISA, I heard it was about to change.

[MyTarget]

Highly unlikely to go from a R22 to S92, so I wouldnt worry about that just yet.



I wouldn't dismiss that option, there are many pilots on the North sea who came straight from a R22 or similar onto medium and heavy aircraft! If you get yourself a JAA CPL H IR and and the will to suceed then go for it. There will always be jobs but you have to find them.:cool: As for no employment with just a CPLH, well we all had to start some where, and actually its a great achievement.
Crack on!!!:ok:

[Nithro]

As for no employment with just a CPLH, well we all had to start some where, and actually its a great achievement.

Inspiring, thanks!

The North Sea is a very probable field for me as I origin from Sweden. Relatively close. However, I was just giving an example. I don't know many helicoptes types (yet ;)).

Anyone that went to Bristow by the way?

[darrenphughes]

Hi Nithro,
If you're looking to work the North Sea eventually upon returning home you need to also allow for a JAA instrument rating. Otherwise you will more than likely not be employable. It's a different animal to the FAA instrument rating and it has to be done in a full instrument ship. It's priced at a stupid amount of money (somewhere around €35,000 I think). I have heard rumors of some place in Denmark though that does it for a lot less than the rest of the schools(don't know who they are, or how they do it). Below is a link to a topic specific to the JAA instrument rating.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/253462-jaa-ir-courses-including-converting-faa-ir-jaa-ir-merged.html?highlight=jaa+instrument+rating


Here are some other links to topics that might help your research.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/116630-hours-building-questions-ideas-advice-countries-etc.html?highlight=jaa+instrument+rating

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/253430-what-job-prospects-new-cpls-merged.html?highlight=jaa+instrument+rating

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/119071-becoming-professional-pilot-finding-job.html?highlight=jaa+instrument+rating

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Darren.

[murdock]

MyTarget - I dont disagree that you could go from flying a R22 to a medium or heavy aircraft in the North Sea. However, even if someone racked up 100 hours on a R22 on FAA license, its still not gonna solve the problem of having to go get the JAA IR and paying crazy costs for it. Was only trying to say, that whether you have no ICAO IR, or you have 100 hours on a foreign license, you still have to pay that horrendous amount of money for JAA IR. Then you can get a job in the North Sea. On a side note, to date, I have never heard of someone outside the North Sea going from A R22 to a S92. Would be f*ucking awesome if it were possible though! If someone has, please share the story.

With regards to the $65,000 for the combined FAA and JAA course, this is the point that I want to stress. These are just guideline numbers. If you do absolutely everything perfectly and get it all with the bare minimum. It rarely happens that way. I know it has happened, but rarely. Therefore, you really need to budget for more than the $65,000 Bristow are advertising. Lets not forget housing and living expenses for the 12-18 months you will be at school and out of work. I know Florida is cheap, but it still adds up. Plus the partying, that everyone doesn't quite account for! ha ha ha!

Now that the J1 visa is changing, you will only get 6 months to work in the States, and that's if you choose to fork out more money to get the FAA Instrument rating, CFI and CFII - costs going up still. Add another $25,000 minimum for those according to Bristows site. Now you have to leave America with the few hundred hours you acquired, you will most likely end up heading to the North Sea, as there are very few places around the world you will get a job with about 500-700 hours - bring on the JAA IR. Like I said earlier, about 40,000. here's hoping that by that time things will be better and jobs will be available again. As it is a sad thing to have seen so many people spend all this money, not get a job and just go find other industries to work in.

Thats all I am trying to point out - just make sure when planning this, you go in eyes open with regards to all financial aspects and future outlooks. Be very mindful of the licenses you wish to acquire and where you think you would like to work. You set out not planning where you might want to end up and this will all get very, very expensive.

Of course there are other alternatives that might be more cost friendly. Perhaps go to South Africa for your flight training and then to America for the licenses, so save money on flying. Maybe just do your FAA licenses, and then study distance learning with Bristol Online for the JAA ATPL, giving you more time to work. Stay at home in Europe and keep your day job and just slowl build up your flying career from schools in Sweden. Obviously there are lots of choices.

Also, like Pandalet said, I dont ever believe in the "pay for our course that will ge you employed with us". Heard that one too many times.

All that being said, by all means, go for it! Enjoy it, and good luck.

[FayeDeck]

Regarding a rating; this is purely an endorsement on your Lic.

If you equate it to driving Lic you have a basic Lic and it is endorsed with Car, Bike, Trike or god knows what.

Likewise, your commercial flying lic gets endorsed with a type e.g. B206, EC135, SA341 etc etc and things such as an IR.

Best of luck with the career mate.