Pugachev/Cobra Maneuver - practical?

[xxgunnerxx]

Hi,

I'm just wondering on why there's a split opinion on the Pugachev/Cobra maneuver. I recall when it first done in 1989 it looked impressive but the west didn't really see the practicality in it- what's wrong with letting the enemy plane pass you and then your "pop" a rocket at it from behind?

[4Greens]

Almost stationary, no crossing motion, lots of power, great heat seaker missile target.

[DBTW]

Last ditch defensive manoeuvre for someone who is seriously losing, otherwise good for airshows...

[AR1]

What about when you're just about to overshoot the hose? Whip it back and plug in. Feasible?

[BombayDuck]

Looks great in Top Gun though "I'm gonna hit the brakes and he'll fly right by!" :}

[Wiley]

An absolute last ditch manoeuvre, with nowhere to go but a Martin Baker letdown (if you're lucky) if you don't get it right.

I think it breaks the cardinal rule of air combat, doesn't it? Maintaining your energy and having the ability to break away - and get far, far away in minimum time - is just about 90% of the game.

[ianp]

Do it in a helicopter, much safer :ok:

[mr fish]

bet if IMMELMANN could have seen it he would have choked on his schnapps all the same:ok:

[FJJP]

How about tearing down a wide valley on Red Flag with an Agressor F5 lining up for a guns...

Bung out high drag airbrake, full power and crank on 70 degrees bank.

To quote the pilot 'suddenly my screen was filled by large delta - had to break away - no kill, had to change my pants!'

The unexpected is a useful tool...

[West Coast]

Who says its unexpected anymore. Reports from the last Red Flag made it sound as if Blue air wanted the baddies to try it.

[Wiley]

To quote the pilot 'suddenly my screen was filled by large delta - had to break away - no kill, had to change my pants!'...and then his wingman shoots you down as you hang there, barely in control and totally bereft of energy.

[Fitter2]

Although the manoevre may have little combat value in itself, as John Farley points out in his book the ability to do it indicates a high degree of engine/intake capability which allows many other changes of direction while maintaining full power - a factor known to be useful since Spitfire/Bf109 combat.

[Gainesy]

"Well Boss, I was just demonstrating the aircraft's high degree of engine/intake capability when this unspeakable bloody oik gunned me, most unsporting".:)

[FlightTester]

Almost stationary, no crossing motion


Doppler notch? But to what use?

[fltlt]

Pray that the SAS comes back on line after you toggle it.

[CharlieJuliet]

Hopr that this comes out OK (first time trying to post). Ant offers for the camers ship? From memory, Anatoly didn't move all that far rearwards duriong the cobra. http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/CharlieJuliet44/001.jpg"

[Tourist]

Jetstream?

[Bushfiva]

As Fitter2 said. When we saw that manoeuvre for the first time, we spent a couple of days with pencils and calculators working out what it told us about the engines, inlet design, general flight capabilities, and where else such elements might be used. We went "ooh" a lot. Very capable design indeed.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Flight Tester

The cobra was developed during the closing stages of the Cold War as part of a relatively simple anti-AWACS tactic that exploited the doppler notch and took advantage of the anti-radar Kh-31's long range WEZ (120 miles, according to some reports).

The plan was to have two elements of two Flankers flying in very close formation so as to prevent AWACs breakout of four distinct targets. At the correct point in time/space, the two wingmen would cobra in order to rapidly enter the notch, while the two flight leads would hook turn away from the target. The notching Flankers would then descend, still in the notch, and sneak under the AWACS' coverage (or use ground clutter/terrain masking to mask their approach for as long as possible). Once they were in range for the shot, they would pop-up and engage the target.

The plan did not require them to remain undetected for the entire duration of the tactic, but just long enough that they caught the HVACAP by surprise and were able to get into the Kh-31 WEZ.

I asked some AWACS mates if they thought it would have worked and they were of mixed opinion. There is also some debate about whether the 'AWACS killer' Kh-31 ever existed. Suffice to say, the Russians certainly trained to execute the tactic itself.

Anyway, that is the real story behind the cobra.

[FlightTester]

Ewan,

Cheers for that, sounds reasonable.

FT:ok:

[CharlieJuliet]

Yep Jetstream 31 - Just before the Woodford Airshow in the mid '90s

[Tourist]

Damn I'm good.












or possibly a little sad........

[Arcanum]

The plan was to have two elements of two Flankers flying in very close formation so as to prevent AWACs breakout of four distinct targets. At the correct point in time/space, the two wingmen would cobra in order to rapidly enter the notch, while the two flight leads would hook turn away from the target. The notching Flankers would then descend, still in the notch, and sneak under the AWACS' coverage (or use ground clutter/terrain masking to mask their approach for as long as possible). Once they were in range for the shot, they would pop-up and engage the target.

I hope you'll forgive such a basic question, but if the two 'notching' Flankers could sneak in under the AWACS' coverage by going low-level and terrain masking after doing the Cobra, why not just stay low-level all of the time?

Surely the closer the Flankers are to the AWACS the greater the risk of detection so terrain masking further out should be more effective and then there is no need for the Cobra tactic at all?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Arc - a variety of reasons are possible...

a) fuel burn - the obvious LL fuel burn vs high level fuel burn issue, thus spending as little time as possible at LL is a good plan.

b) not wanting to go LL over the FEBA/front line/whatever we're calling it now it doesnt exist! FEBA is usual a spikey cactus of lots of very capable LL AD systems (rapier, ZSU etc) to protect the front line guys from the likes of A-10/Frogfoot. I'd want to avoid going LL over it if at all possible! Potentially this notch tactic could allow you to head west over the FEBA somewhere north or south of the HVACAP, then notch and head north/south as appropriate and miss the worst of the GBAD.

c) probably a couple of others that it's too early in the morning to think about!

[ARXW]

In answer to your original question: the cobra is an extra capability and as long you don't sacrifice other parameters any extra capability is welcome...

Is it practical? Not very but still useful. To get slow doesn't always mean to get dead.

There is no better way to reflect on this than to watch this brilliant pilot (again and again):
YouTube - Dogfights - MiG Killers of USS Midway (4 of 5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJuaaQBz_yk)

That was deep in Indian country somewhere in between the densest AA network in the world, overhead the enemy airfield -Kep(effectively) in a 2v6 fight and he executed the F-4 version of the cobra (or at least its philosophy was the same). 400-450kts to 100-150kts in a blink, and that involved departing an F-4 at 1500ft!! Of course this maneouvre could probably only be executed by 10-15 pilots in the USN at the absolute maximum and these were to be mostly found at Topgun/VF-121 and VX-4 (Mugs McKeown was a Mig17 pilot at VX-4 before these kills).
:ok::ok::ok: