No Cockpit Door - What Do Pax Think?

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

What do pax think about flying in an aircraft with no cockpit door? Is it interesting to see what's going on up front or would you rather not? One passenger told me he could see the pilots "panicking" and moving the control column. - just a normal landing in a gusty, crosswind.

[PAXboy]

A great risk for the reason you state. Since pax have zero idea what happens on the other side of the door, taking it away will not help! I recall arriving into STN on a dark, blustery, rainy night on a GO 733 (I think) in November '99. I was in the jumpseat for reasons that do not matter. I was wearing headphones, and been briefed on what to expect and had been in a jumpseat several times before.

The FO worked VERY hard and brought off a great landing that had my toes curling as we reached threshold. The nose was off the centre line with the gusting wind but, at touch down he brought it smoothly back into line and all was beautiful. BUT he really did have to wrestle with the stick and anyone not expecting that and - and the flurry of switch pushing and lever operating - would not benefit! Certainly any anxious pax would need an ambulance.

[Hartington]

Try and Islander/Trislander, Twin Otter etc. No cockpit door, in fact you may end up sitting next to the pilot. Maybe not ideal for the nervous pax. And I always remember departing Heathrow on a Lufthansa 737-100 (yes, a -100) which had a curtain door that wasn't closed - on a reasonably calm day I was surprised how much difficulty they were having keeping it straight as we accelerated.

But then I'm one of those possibly irritating passengers who prior to 2001 would regularly request a visit to the flight deck.

[strake]

Ah, fond but distant early eighties memories of the scheduled Twotter from Gatwick (I think) to Birmingham and then East Midlands. Out of Gatwick, pilot (single crew operation) lights up a fag and sits back for a while. After landing at East Midlands, he was required to bring out a long chain and padlock and secure them round the column.

[Final 3 Greens]

I love it.

Then again, as a PPL, watching the professionals handle crosswind landings is instructive, rather than intimidating.

I had the great privilege of observing an approach and landing into a horribly stormy Dublin from the jump seat and learned a lot about handling a gusty cross wind - the guys were kind enough to debrief me on how they'd done it and it made me more aware and thus a better pilot :ok:

[manintheback]

Long gone Crossair always left the cockpit doors open. Anyone sat in the first few rows aisle side could see what was going on throughout the flight. Enjoyed many a late night Sunday flight into Basle as a result

[5Y NJB]

I don't think it makes any difference. The kind of pax who are going to panic will do so regardless. I've seen it countless times here, where we have the Dash 7 & Dash 8 (cockpit door closed), and Twin Otter and Caravan / Grand Caravan (no cockpit door) operating the same routes. Pax who are claustrophobic, have control issues or simply don't like being tossed around in a smaller aircraft when the bumps come, have the same reaction regardless of equipment type.

Personally, I love being up-front / seeing what's going on up-front. But then, that's why I'm learning to fly.

[Capot]

We normally operated our F27s in the 1970's with no cockpit door; just a curtain for night time use which was rarely used.

The view through the windshield from the aisle seats at the back of the cabin during an approach was of the runway, or rather whatever the aircraft was pointing at.

Any tiny yaw or pitch change was very, very exaggerated by the long distance from the windshield to the eye, and the very small angle of vision. Passengers would weep in terror as the pilots seemed to lose control and the aircraft appeared to swing wildly about the sky.

I'm sure someone can explain the geometry of this illusion in scientific terms that are beyond me.

[Final 3 Greens]

Capot

I've paxed on the F27 many times and watched the approach through the door space.

It always looked to me as if she approached with quite a nose down attitude - was that the case or was this an illusion, too?

[Old 'Un]

Yes, Capot, F-27s flying regional routes in NZ a few decades ago must have had a similar SOP - curtain to the side and tied off for landings. It made for an interesting view into Wellington, especially in blustery conditions. As a frequent pax, I (along with others frequent fliers) used to count the number of "white knuckles". Average was about 50%, higher if the day was really rough. Whatever the reason, 'security' back then wasn't an issue.

I'm all in favour of security for pilots (and pax for that matter), but just where do we draw the line? Is it reasonable/feasable to fit a security door into a B1900? I know when they were fitted to some Saab 340s, they had to carry plastic water drums down the back to offset the extra weight up front. Overall the commercial payload was reduced and correspondingly the operating costs went up.

Final 3 Greens: I'm not sure why, but the F-27 does appear to have a pronounced nose-down attitude on approach. It looks that way both from on board and from the ground. Does it have a higher approach angle compared with other aircraft perhaps? Maybe someone with more knowledge of the F-27 could explain. Sorry, thread drift. Back to topic.

Le Vieux

[pax britanica]

I did a couple of F50 trips from Stockholm to Berlin in early 90s with very light loads -on the second trip it was just me . On the first one I had an aisle seat a few rows back and was very aware of the swing about /yawing on approach .It alnost seemed like the FO who was flying let it wander a fair way off course then just booted it back straight rather than make constant corections. The other thing that stuck was the fact that we appeared to be headed for the approach lights not the runway but from my plane spotting days in the 60s I did recall that F27s had a marked apparent nose down attitude on aproach so wasn't too worried.

The second trip however was fantastic because a young LH crew asked me to join them ( me being the sole pax) about half way through the fight and let me stay upfront for the landing at Templehof-fantastic experience.

Digressing a bit but on the theme of slightly odd aircraft flying attiudes I flew several times around Europe on early DC8s used by AZ Swissair KLM etc when their LHR loads got too big for Caravelles or DC9s and lightly loaded these seemed to soar effortlessly aloft but with very little nose up attirude anyone else recall that
PB

[R04stb33f]

Since pax have zero idea what happens on the other side of the doorThat's a hell of a statement... but unfortunately, this is probably true for the most part.

Personally I would love to be able to see what happens during takeoff and landing. In fact, on some aircraft, there appear to be cameras somewhere on the outside of the aircraft looking at the ground. The images are placed on the screens in the cabin. Conveniently (or not, in my view) these images are not shown when we get below a certain altitude....

Maybe someone could build a transparent airframe :E

[Hunter58]

Old'Un

a B1900 won;t ever get one since the regulations clearly state that with 19 pax or less there is no need for a door. However, should the aircraft of 19 seats or less have a door, it MUST be a secured one for operations in the US...

That of course improves safety. Go figure...

[BladePilot]

Reminds me of that old story of the Twotter Pilot who leaves his seat during the cruise and hands two peices of string (apparently attached to the column) to the old lady in the front row and asks her to keep the thing straight and level whilst he goes down back to the toilet:)

Cameras on most aircraft I travel on as a passenger these days (long haul) and I've never known them to be switched off at any point on the approach no matter what the weather. Had a couple of approaches recently where I thought it may have been a good idea to switch them off though! felt sorry for the passengers who couldn't understand why the runway appeared to be way off to the side of the aircraft:)

[Final 3 Greens]

felt sorry for the passengers who couldn't understand why the runway appeared to be way off to the side of the aircraft

Have you been on an A340-600 with a camera mounted on the top of the vertical stabiliser?

Looks just like a screen shot from a flight sim game :}

[Pax Vobiscum]

It made for an interesting view into Wellington, especially in blustery conditions.
Are there ever any non-blustery days in 'Windy Willington'? :)

[Beagle-eye]

Heard a story many years ago about a woman passenger on a flight with no cockpit door. She complained about the fact that the pilots were “clearly lost as they had to constantly refer to their maps”.

She also observed that it was only by great “good luck” that they popped out of the cloud and the runway was right there !!!

B-E :)

[Old 'Un]

Pax Vobiscum: Yep, 15 April 1957 :)

[al446]

Any tiny yaw or pitch change was very, very exaggerated by the long distance from the windshield to the eye, and the very small angle of vision. Passengers would weep in terror as the pilots seemed to lose control and the aircraft appeared to swing wildly about the sky.

I'm sure someone can explain the geometry of this illusion in scientific terms that are beyond me.

I think this is related to parallax.

Parallax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paralax)

Hope this helps.

[Rainboe]

It is remarks like thisOne passenger told me he could see the pilots "panicking" and moving the control column. - just a normal landing in a gusty, crosswind. and Heard a story many years ago about a woman passenger on a flight with no cockpit door. She complained about the fact that the pilots were “clearly lost as they had to constantly refer to their maps”.

She also observed that it was only by great “good luck” that they popped out of the cloud and the runway was right there !!! that makes me believe whatever the size of aeroplane, a firm screen needs exist blocking all forward view! These comments do nothing for aviation, and will be repeated for life by the culprits. An awful one was the woman who complained 'the pilots had obviously been drinking' to the Police after several go arounds in bad weather. That caused a lot of trouble. If she had done it to me, I would have tracked her down.

I used to fly the HS748, a low wing equivalent of the Fokker Friendship. When you slow up and take flap, the nose down attitude is pronounced. It is to do with the long straight wing and the need to lower the angle of attack. It does make viewing forward from the rear cabin through the cockpit window very disconcerting and unpleasant. Try walking around with your eye looking through a picture tube- the smallest movement shows as apparently much larger.

[Final 3 Greens]

I regularly lead seminars and give keynote talks to companies.

People often give me feedback which is clearly based on their lack of understanding of the subject and also of the professional skills required to do my job.

I always take time to listen, thank them for their interesting views and then get on with my life (trousering the fees for the engagement.)

And Rainboe, I think that you ought to take the same view, since for every pax who makes a silly comment, tens will love the experience, tell their friends and spread the good news about aviation.

Also, to 'track someone down', can be a criminal offence, mandating a custodial sentence.

Not the attitude I would expect from an airline captain.

Still, you haven't (at least to my knowledge) dropped your trousers for the security peeps yet, so maybe there is hope for you yet :D

[nebpor]

I don't think it makes any difference. The kind of pax who are going to panic will do so regardless. I've seen it countless times here, where we have the Dash 7 & Dash 8 (cockpit door closed), and Twin Otter and Caravan / Grand Caravan (no cockpit door) operating the same routes. Pax who are claustrophobic, have control issues or simply don't like being tossed around in a smaller aircraft when the bumps come, have the same reaction regardless of equipment type.


This certainly doesn't apply across the board - I am a frequently dodgy flier and I am far more at ease when I can see the pilots sitting there confidently!

I know they all sit there confidently no matter if I can see them or not, but for whatever part of my brain that can't be rational about these things, I do actually like to see them :E

Used to love Eastern Airlines in the UK for exactly this.

[redsnail]

We don't have a door on our jet. We don't get that many visitors. If they do they are usually asking for the temperature to be adjusted or the location of the bottle opener. :ok:

Occasionally one or two shows interest and has a chat about the view and what's going on. :D

[5Y NJB]

I am a frequently dodgy flier

The mind boggles :ooh:

[MrSoft]

I just took a scheduled flight with BIH to the Isles of Scilly and back (Sikorsky S61), one of many down the years.

There is no curtain and the flight crew sit somewhat aloft, providing a great view of ops. It was an absolute treat to sit in the front row and appreciate the high workload these guys face. The taxiing procedure is fascinating; forwards, backwards, sideways, or all three according to the subtleties of the wind. This unique service is now under real threat and they appear to be down to just a single machine for operations, so I urge all cockpit-view fans to get down to Penzance PDQ.

[Final 3 Greens]

Mr Soft

As a PPL (Aeroplanes), I have nothing but admiration for the and to eye coordination and skills of helicopter pilots.

Having been fortunate enough to sit in the left hand front seat of a JetRanger (pilot sits front right), I know exactly what you mean, its fascinating to watch.

[BelArgUSA]

During my airline flying years, often did moonlight as Learjet pilot.
Had to make extra $$$ since we airline pilots are paid such high salaries...!
The worst was often, no cockpit door - no privacy.
xxx
Among passengers, always was one that knew how to fly better than me.
Or the "rich and famous" asking you to serve them a double whisky.
That when you are busy copying a departure clearance and taxiing.
xxx
But the worst was the annunciator panel with red or yellow lights.
I always tried to cover some of these lights with a masking tape.
These lights are my business, not theirs
xxx
There were 2 lights saying L/R ENG ICE... NO, we're not going to crash.
And NO, it is not ice cubes for their vodkas.
The worst light was "LOW FUEL".
To their (drunk) mind - means "imminent crash, out of fuel"...
Wish we had a "rich and famous low booze" warning instead.
xxx
:E
Happy contrails

[Yay!!!]

yep there is. But its always cold when it happens from my experience.

[Flygirl__37]

Yes, the fuel lights get them everytime! Especially when your about ready to change tanks...:ok:

[b737800capt06]

As a kid (11 years old) I got the opportunity, along with a few other kids, to get up the pointy end of a 747 during cruise - those were the days.

Thanks Lufthansa :ok:

P.S I think it is best to leave the door closed to the cockpit - however next time you fly El Al - ask them....................:}

[aviator's_anonymous]

i flew on an airline once who had a camera mounted just behind the front nose gear... you could switch to the channel from your inflight tv and watch everything happening from taxi, take off, inflight and landing... it was an awesome function... they have since taken off this function now as i heard it caused panic for some passengers who would watch the landing, and panic due to not seeing the runway when landing and thinking they were going to crash... when in reality the aircraft crabbing in due to the crosswind...
for some.. ignorance is bliss...

[OFSO]

Many - really, really many - years ago I flew FfaM to Paris and back at least once a week, usually in a 727 or 737. I found sitting up front, RH aisle seat, where I could watch the cockpit activity thru the open door, was great, really instilled in me a sense of confidence in professional air crew which has never left me, even though it all takes place these days behind a (dark blue) locked door. On several occasions I was invited into the cockpit and yup, it was a thrill.

Flying with an open cockpit door in a commercial passenger aircraft is unlikely ever to become the norm again, but as an SLF I'm glad I was there, when it was.

RaF

[Seat62K]

I remember a pre-September, 2001 departure out of Barcelona onboard an Aviaco MD-something-or-other. It had a flightdeck door but this had been left open. Because it was a night-time departure there wasn't much to see from my aisle seat, although I do remember the runway lights as we turned to line up for take off.

[itinerant]

Recently flew with Emirates, Heathrow to Jakarta via Dubai and first leg was on the A380. Apart from it being an amazing piece of kit, there is a choice of nose mount, tail mount and down facing cameras, selectable on the IFE screen.

Have to say the tail mount view is incredible. Just before the trip I saw a Richard Hammond TV program about the challenges facing the designers of the 380 wing and how they had used a bird wing as a template, enabling them to use a shorter span design. You almost felt that you were looking down from a hawks head. Incredible! And a great in flight bar too, though that wasn't mentioned on the program. :ok:

Also was fortunate pre 9-11 to get a jump seat into both Heathrow and Gatwick and thoroughly enjoyed it. Such a shame that my kids will never get that chance.