EE Lighnting Endurance.

[Mr_Grubby]

Hi chaps,

Quick question. What was the endurance of a Lightning ?

I know the early Mark 3's it was about 45 minutes, but what about the Mark 6's

Thanks,

Clint.

[Get me some traffic]

A Lightning jockey once told me that the Mk1A in full reheat had about 8mins at sea level!!!!! Could have been bulls****ing?

[Herod]

I was told on pretty good authority that it was 11 minutes, so I don't think it was bullsh*t

[chiglet]

I was a "Scopie" [Air Defence Operator] in the '60s, and had access to the Pilots' Notes, and so I have posted before....but here goes....
Initial Project...Scramble, M0.9 cruise, turn in, accellerate to M1.5, fire Firestreaks, splash Target, RTB....14 mins
Lightning F6...Scramble Binbrook [5Sqn] climb to 30,000ft, escourt Bears to Wick, then RTB Binbrook
F6 from Leuchars....Fighter afil, pd Valley, RTB Leuchars, circuits...2 hrs 20 mins [with overwing tank trials]
All the above are personal recollections.
The next is something I "imagined" from the said Pilots' Notes...[quite a thick booklet, with a lot of fuel flow figures under various engine settings]...So with overwing tanks and max fuel.......
Take off [min re-heat] and cruise climb to Tropopause. At Trop, close down one engine [can't remember which one]. When o/w tanks dry, jettison. Cruise descent and at 10,000 ft relight "no2" engine continue and land.
Total range....?

In excess of 3,000nm. :D

I also had a Fam flt [cockpit trip] in a Laker Airbus, and the Skipper was an ex Lightning jock. He confirmed this, but as the relight of the no2 engine was not guaranteed, it was a no-no

[D120A]

Mr Grubby,

Typical sortie length for a Mk6 with a gun pack in the front ventral was an hour to an hour and five minutes, but of course much depended on what the aircraft did during the flight. 'Flying for endurance' crimps the training value somewhat, so we didn't see many 'one hour and ten minutes or more' sorties. Medium level combat air patrol sorties with no targets were potentially the longest, but on exercise those often had tanker support and they'd be gone for hours.

Shutting down an engine in flight was restricted to the following occasions:

1. Appropriate emergency procedures
2. When specifically required on an air test
3. When there was an operational necessity to conserve fuel

If a first cold relight failed, there were draconian limitations in Pilot's Notes about second and subsequent attempts to relight. I would say that more engines were shut down on air tests than during training flying, but perhaps my friends will now ring me up and tell their old SEngO what they were actually doing to our aeroplanes that I didn't know about!

Hope that helps.

Graham P.

[lightningmate]

Late 60s out of Wattisham, flying the usual 0300 Tacan x-country with the only serviceable(?) fuel & noise jet, I made 1hr 40 mins in an F3. Hi level endurance with both engines all the way and the usual min fuel consumption, flutter down descent to arrive with 800s a side.

Boss was pleased, air traffic were less so since I was the only jet still flying.

lm

[Mr_Grubby]

Thanks guys, that's just the info I wanted.

The power of PPRune demonstrated once again !!!

Clint. :ok::ok::ok:

[Paracab]

Not everyday you find first hand Lightning tales on PPRuNE, great stuff! Got any more lightningmate? :D

[chevvron]

We had an F6 at Farnborough which was used to test the Mauser cannon for the Tornado F3. This occupied a significant part of the 'belly' tank thus limiting endurance to about 40 min . During this 40 min, the pilot had to transit through G1 airway (now L9) to Cardigan Bay where hopefully a Jindivik would be waiting. After shooting this, the aircraft would have to return to Farnborough with 600lb/side minimum 'in the circuit'; if less than this it would have to divert(usually Valley) . But 600lb/side meant he was too heavy to land so he would burn off in the circuit in the usual spectacular Lightning manner!
Normally the transit to/from Wales was handled by London Miltary radar, with the aircraft handed over in both directions, but one day, I had just cleared a Hunter departure to the south west when I noticed a fast moving blip cavorting around west of Odiham (this was pre SSR so I had no idea of its identity or level). Then Nugget XX called and said he was inbound from the west; I just had time to pass runway and QFE before he called 'field in sight - to local; he couldn't hang about waiting for London to hand him over due to the fuel situation.

[lightningmate]

chevvron,

Your fuel states are amiss, 600 lbs a side is well below the normal min fuel on the ground of 800 lbs a side. To suggest the aircraft was too heavy to land with 600 a side is incorrect unless the Mauser was encased in much lead.

Are you really suggesting the aircraft flew to Cardigan Bay to deliberately shoot down a Jindivik?

lm

[nipva]

The figures being quoted by previous posters generally refer to typical sortie length rather than actual endurance. Typical subsonic sortie length for the F6 was, at first, 1hr to 1hr 15mins but this depended on how much diversion fuel you landed with. The retrofit of the ventral gunpack knocked 5' off this. Overwings increased sortie length by about 30mins. In Cyprus where we only had Nicosia as a diversion and thus always landed with 800's, subsonic sortie length was about 10' longer than in UK. However, if you flew a whole sortie for endurance (very tedious and unlikely) you could just get 2 hrs out of an F6.

[CharlieJuliet]

From my log book the longest unrefueled sorties are 1 hour 25 minutes doing subsonic PIs and 50 minutes doing super sonics or high flyers (Mk 6). I also have 2 hours 5 minutes with overburgers where I was spare for the Squadron push to Muharraq. This was one of the first Lightning dets to the east, and I followed both pairs to Paris - sadly for me all 4 managed to plug in and I ended back at Binbrook,

[chevvron]

I am positive of the 600/side figure; it was enough to divert to Fairford or Boscombe if unable to land at Farnborough(after shutting down one engine). Don't forget this wasn't a normal operational F6 and other aircraft at Farnborough like Hunters often flew way outside normal operational endurance limits.
I remember it as the procedure was entered in the FOB.
I assumed everyone knew the Jindiviks were used to tow a drogue or a flare (for IR seeking missiles) thus I didn't bother to say.

[Madbob]

I have enjoyed this thread which brought to mind a conversation with a former test pilot, (Wg Cdr Dickie Martin) who had flown the F104 which was of a similar vintage to the Lightning.

He said it (the F104) was the only aircraft that he had flown where you could actually the see the fuel guage unwinding :sad: when in max reheat, and that when flown "clean" you really needed to be declaring a fuel emergency before brake release on T/O!

MB

[D120A]

And someone on my (Lightning) squadron suggested we should tie a piece of string to each of the needles on the fuel gauges, to "harness the power as they moved to the left". :hmm:

GP

[Gainesy]

One of 56's F.3s came out of the MU at Akrotiri without the ventral tank and was flown in that state quite a few times until the tank was re-fitted. Don't have any actual figures but it was up and back down extremely quickly.:uhoh:

In Cyprus where we only had Nicosia as a diversion and thus always landed with 800's

Don't forget Operation Block-off Nipva (landing on the taxiway at AKR).

[Firestreak]

:)Have got a 2hr unrefuelled sortie in my log book in a Mk2A from Gutersloh. The Flt Cdr jokingly briefed us that we were chasing hours so do the 2 hrs please. They were the most sedate PIs you've ever seen but we managed!

[nipva]

Don't forget Operation Block-off Nipva (landing on the taxiway at AKR).
Gainesy - you are quite right. Block off was a day option but I do not recall it ever being a planned diversion except for the last few months in 1974 when Nicosia was denied us and I cannot recall it ever being used in anger. Following the closure of Nicosia we were restricted to day flying only as night block-offs were deemed too risky. However, when it became clear that Nicosia wasn't going to reopen, the night blockoff option became a reality and we all had to be dual checked which led to some interesting approaches, especially close to the ground thanks to the parallax due to the side by side seating. There were no PAPIs/VASIs, no approach lights and no threshold lights and the taxiway was only 75' wide. Night blockoffs were only practicable on the westerly runway; there were too many unlit obstacles on the easterly approach.

[newt]

On checking my logbook I found a 2 hour practice scramble in Mk2a from Gutersloh in 1973. It was the done thing to try for 2 hours without refuelling. As I recall the Boss did 2 hours 5 mins and declared an end to the competition!

Also found two 15 min sorties in a Mk 3 from Wattisham on the same day in May 1974.

Those were the days!!

[Firestreak]

Ah Newt, 2 hrs out of the shed was easy--we really did 2hrs of PIs. The other thing I didn't mention on my original "2 hr" post was that we were also to do a spot of 1v1 at the end for currency which we did, including a touch of burner for a couple of seconds. You will recall the Flt Cdr who gave us the brief---JB----given that, you might be able to work out who the pair were as we were all on the same flight!!

By the same token, I recall setting off for an SOP LLSP sortie and being back on the ground after 20 mins having had a right royal hooley with some G 91s shortly after getting airborne.

And do you recall the infamous R/T message---"Will the G 91 and Lightning doing combat in the Wundsdorf circuit please call Wundsdorf on freq x"

[seac]

There was a flight commander of a Leafy persuasion during the late 70's early 80's , who's nickname amongst the groundcrew( Of which I was one ) was "Poundstretcher" .

I think with the application of some lateral thinking and logical deduction , his true identity may be revealed !!!

[newt]

Well Firestreak, the old memory is not what it used to be! I know we had a small chap with those initials and I sometimes go fishing with him but as far as briefings go I simply do not recall! Then I should have paid more attention!! He was supposed to be my mentor!

Still says he taught me all I know, which is not very much these days!!

[Dan Winterland]

Speaking as an ex Victor K2 guy, the Lightnings were some of our best, and frequently most grateful customers. Needed to get rid of spare gas to get to the bar by opening time? A Lightning would always bootleg if there was one nearby. I've even touted for trade on the Binbrook approach frequency and attracted customers!

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/lightningaar.jpg

Good days.

[D120A]

Dan,

It's still a good day when you have an Eric Day painting like that to look at! :ok:

'Bootlegging' your fuel was a daily occurrence at Binbrook. One call from Marham ops that their promised trade (usually Jaguars) on Towline 5 had cancelled, the whole squadron programme would be re-vamped and the Binbrook circuit would be quiet for hours.

One young NCO eng controller observed that his was the only job he knew where you could go to the loo for two minutes and return to the ops desk and find yourself two hours out-of-date...

GP

[Audax]

Was once pluged into a tanker just off Wattisham when we were told to break as an emergency aircraft, very short of gas, was joining. Sure enough, a couple of minutes later a Flt Cdr from the other Sqn (Tremblers) pitched up on freq and was cleared direct to the hose for contact. As he neared the basket the Victor told him they couldn't give him any fuel and did he wish them to put out the Mayday on his behalf. When our hero enquired as to why he was being denied fuel the answer was quite clear---there was no probe on his aircraft.

At this stage, he was forced to admit that he did have enough fuel to RTB and went home with a suitably red face; surprisingly, he wasn't in the bar that night. :D

[BEagle]

'Bootlegging' doesn't exist nowadays, the latest piece of Yank-inspired prose in ATP-56(B) Change 1 is the term 'On Call' instead of 'Bootleg'....:rolleyes:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

Together with 'Observation' and 'Reform' instead of 'Echelon' and 'Buddy Cruise' instead of 'Wide echelon'.....:ugh:

Hoepfully someone will sort this nonsense out again one day?

[Argonautical]

Have a look at these marvelous photos posted by someone in another forum:-

Silver Lightnings (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=7288)