Hey QF 737 pilots - You've left your ice lights on...

[Wing Root]

Hi guys,

I'm assuming this must be a SOP as you all seem to do it now but do you REALLY need the ice lights on at night on the ground when the OAT is 35+ degrees? Sitting at the hold point with one of these shining directly into my eyes really doesn't help the night vision. Just putting it out there...

[captaintunedog777]

Unlike yourself maybe they made a mistake. Great pick up man, should really help with your confidence in your bug smasha. You will go far. :ok:

Oh yeah thx for puting it out there.

[apache]

what really p!ssed me off one night was when a QF 767 taxied from the INT'L apron to a holding point directly opposite me. ALL LIGHTS BLAZING! we sat there for about three minutes being blinded by this inconsiderate git! When we were cleared to line up first, we turned on the lights as required by SOP's... only to hear this radio call ..... " thanks guys..... imagine if we did that to you!"

We bit our tongues - wish we hadn't now! Airmanship, it seems, is not practised at some "national airlines" .

BTW... we were in an A/c considerably closer to the ground than a B767. Our landing lights would have had ZERO effect on them! besides the fact that we didn't turn them on till 45 deg on the runway!!!!!!

[Capt Fathom]

Don't look .... :uhoh:

[Capt_SNAFU]

Wing root it is SOP. Newly introduced. Is supposedly recommended procedure from IOSA (or ICAO) and CASA. All QF aircraft will (should) be doing it not just 737.

[Wing Root]

OK, getting some mixed responses here...

As I say it's clearly a SOP so it's no mistake. I've assumed it's for collision avoidance but with all the other lights including the logo lights do we really need a focused beam of light aimed directly into the windscreens of your fellow pilots? To be honest now I'm ready for it I do remember to look away. It was more annoying the first time as I wasn't expecting the equivalent of a landing light shinning sideways. Would it be instant dismissal if one were to use a bit of situational awareness and maybe switch them off on occasions where they do more harm than good? Anyway with the procedure recommended by the regulators looks like I'll be seeing the other operators doing it soon too.

[j3pipercub]

collision avoidance sure, to make sure the ICE doesnt collide with th WING, I hear you though

[FFRATS]

Book says,
for taxi ,day or night, taxi lights on.
Crossing RWY- wing (ice lights above) and strobes.
cleared for TKOF- Above + LND lights, day or night. ADD Logo and Position lights during night only... got it!...
FFRATS

[8888]

Please don't tell me things have deteriorated down there to the extent that wing lights 'on' is an SOP?!? Most of the 'notorious' Asian carriers have been carrying on like that up here for a while now and it pisses me off no end. To the extent that they are even left on whilst parked at the gate so that a/c docking next door get and eye full whilst trying to park themselves. Bloody Volvo drivers!

[Keg]

apache, on behalf of the QF drivers let me apologise. Poor form by our guys. Got a date and a call sign and I can even let them know personally. However, please don't go tarring all crew with the same brush. I taxiied out a couple of weeks back and cycled through all three forward lights off as we came around a corner to avoid blinding a dash crew. I've had other carriers do the same for me but likewise I've been blinded by QLink Dashes, DJ 737s, QF 737s, 767s, A330s, 744s (not the Dugong though....yet). I certainly don't get a chip on my shoulder about all pilots from that airline or on that aircraft type. Normally I just sigh and let it go.

Wing root. Gotta say that in 14 years of QF flying I've never heard them referred to as 'ice lights'. They have always been 'wing' lights. Perhaps that's because the label under the switch says 'wing' rather than 'ice'. :ok: I presume that other aircraft (apart from the 744 and the 767) have the term 'ice' under the switch? Just found that an interesting point of difference.

[Kangaroo Court]

We've been putting on the ice lights for a while now...and they keep having to be deferred, because they're not designed for that much use.

Stupid really! Then you can't fly in icing conditions at night, which is always.

[apache]

KEG,
Appreciate that, but it was a few years ago now.
It was not only the lights that p!ssed me off, as we all sometimes have a brainf@rt and leave them on inadvertantly, but moreso the arrogant comment made by the self righteous prick that stuck in my mind.

[Howard Hughes]

Normally I just sigh and let it go.

The only appropriate response!:D

I am surprised though, how even very large aircraft, get lost in the sea of lights at Sydney once they turn off their taxi lights!

Where'd that 767 go?:eek:

But from someone sitting in the 'cheap seats', I really appreciate those who do make the effort! Who says airmanship is dead?:ok:

[Bumpfoh]

as we all sometimes have a brainf@rt and leave them on inadvertantly

including taxiing into the gate leaving the arriving engineer with burnt pupils, so if you see me turn way you'll eventually figure out why.

keeps us in a job though, never changed so many lamps in my carreer, less time to fix those more important MEL items like A/P, anti-skid, auto throttle etc.:ok:

[Kangaroo Court]

Our new SOPs arrived today. They're now asking for us to leave them off again. The bean counters finally nixed it!

[Howard Hughes]

SOP's?

Sounds more like scene from 'the Simpsons'!

"Lights go on, lights go off, lights go on", etc...:}

[funbags]

Don't you love it! Costs too much to keep turning em on and off, so we'll ditch the ICAO recommendations.

[Tempo]

Keg...

"Got a date and a callsign and I can even let them know personally"

You are kidding aren't you! How about you leave the job of contacting pilots regarding operational matters to the fleet manager/chief pilot.

[Autobrakes4]

Keg,

I agree with Tempo here. Who do you think you are? If it was me you rang up as the "perpetrator", I'd tell you to get nicked. It's not your job.

And do you have to be the spokesperson for all qf pilots. Leave the computer alone for a while and give us all a break!

[Green gorilla]

If its like our landing lights they have a working life of 20hrs its on the box so I would say they may be going through alot of globes sounds petty but they do look at it.

[Capt Claret]

apache, on behalf of the QF drivers let me apologise. Poor form by our guys. Got a date and a call sign and I can even let them know personally.

Am I the only one who can see the tongue planted firmly in the side of Keg's mouth? :ugh:

Sadly Dunnunda has become a place where so many are so quick to cast aspersions. Just look at the Sunnies' DH8 thread. I'll bet none of the critics know what happened, yet most of the responses are critical of the crew for an as yet, unknown problem.

When I was a youngster, Aussies were known for giving a bloke a go. Not any more..... :{

[pa60ops]

Im with Capt C on this one. Wait till you are unfortunate to have an incident and see who your freinds are here on the forum pages!!! On a engine shut down a few years ago, even the stuff i read about me was pretty hard to swallow.

[Iron Bar]

Not too sure about that Claret, given the context of the comment . . . . Imagine Keg will quickly resolve the confusion.

If the crazy sop has been changed. All the better.

[Keg]

Oh please Tempo, A/B4, you're talking this far too seriously. I'd much prefer a colleague give me a quick call with some feedback and an observation- even if second hand- than have them call my fleet manager. :rolleyes: If we're at the stage where all feedback must go via the fleet manager then we've seriously lost the plot. Perhaps I just have a different view of feedback than do others. :confused: Personally I don't see feedback direct from colleagues as something to be threatened by and nor do I see by giving it that I'm automatically 'right' and the other is 'wrong'. It is what it is. Take it or leave it. An opportunity for introspection

Perhaps I'm over reacting to what you guys said on this thread but I can hardly see the crew of a DJ flight going to print about QFXYZ burning their eyeballs, having that go through the DJ system, through to the QF system and down again from the fleet manager. Personally I'd much prefer it if a DJ guy knew a QF guy and the QF guy called me direct with some feedback. I could take that or leave it and perhaps it creates an opportunity for a little self-reflection.

Clarrie. No tongue in cheek. I'm always happy to accept some feedback and if I can pass some along informally then so much the better.

Anyway, it appears I'm the loner on this issue so I'll get back into my box. :}

[Jabawocky]

I thought your offer was quite genuine and reasonable. What ever happened to just helping out and doing the right thing by others :rolleyes:.

Probably the precious types with not just chips on shoulders but a whole sawmill....:suspect:

J:cool:

[Flava Saver]

G'Day Keg, got a question for ya.

Is there a company speed limit on the 767 whilst taxying? FOQA or SOP? Reason I ask is we do in the 320, and we were doing it, and a 76 was dragging us on the parallel, came from behind and over took us in a jiffy to get to the holding point before us, then we got the 2 minutes..:}

Anyway, we didn't mind, we were pissing ourselves immensely...made the two minutes go quickly.

[funbags]

30kts on the straight.

[Keith Myath]

Is there a company speed limit on the 767 whilst taxying?

Taxi speed limit = V1

[mavrik1]

Try being an engineering and arriving an A/C at night with taxi lights in face at point blank. All you can do is look away, who knows where the aircraft ends up! Been happening for years accidentally, just human error. Harden up!

[Iron Bar]

Keg

Is my interpretation correct. Following an informal, anonymous, unsubstantiated, possibly vexatious and largely trivial complaint aired on PPrune of all places. You would feel it appropriate to call crewing with the date and flight number, ascertain the name of the captain then proceed to call them and lecture on landing, taxi and /or wing light management???

Would you tell said captain the complaint came from PPrune???

Really???

It is indeed time for drinking!

[Keg]

Iron Bar,

Is my interpretation correct.(sic)

No, your interpretation is not correct. The following may example some of it. My methodologies are my own.

Following an informal, anonymous, unsubstantiated, possibly vexatious and largely trivial complaint.....

It would be informal, it wouldn't be anonymous, I would always point out it was one side of the story, it may be vexatious but I'd have the complainant's name and phone number. It may or may not be trivial. I wouldn't bother calling crewing- mainly because I don't need to- and depending on the circumstances I may or may not file it away and discuss it next time I see the people or I may give them a call.

If I'd stuffed up and someone happened to pass it along to one of my colleagues I'd hope they'd give me a call too. :ok:

[Wing Root]

Our new SOPs arrived today. They're now asking for us to leave them off again. The bean counters finally nixed it!


Wow, Great news!

[pa60ops]

Maybe if a bean counter can get involved in this one - reset the wing lights to "pulse" mode and you would get 50% more time out of them??? Not to mention cool visual effects. :ok:

[Iron Bar]

Very well.:}

[Autobrakes4]

Capt C, I guess that answers your question. Keg was not speaking tongue in cheek. He would seriously ring someone up! Our self anointed "cop" would take it upon himself to ring fellow crew to advise them of lights protocol!

I think most would tell him where to go if the phone call came! :\

[Keg]

Autobrakes4, it's just a tad malicious to dress this up as something it's not. The term 'cop' isn't an appropriate one given that there is no ticket writing and cops tend not to pull people over to provide feedback on the manner in which they've been driving on the road. So with you having used a seriously ordinary analogy that doesn't describe accurately the intent of my comments is there anything else you'd like to distort?

Some people sure are touchy about getting feedback from others.

[Autobrakes4]

Whatever Keg. I just don't understand what gives you the right to ring people up personally and talk to them about what they did or didn't do with their lights on a particular sector. If your not happy about it, fill out a FCR, and the managers can sort it out.

I know what most people would say if you rang them at home on a day off to comment about their use of lights! :mad:

[Capt Claret]

http://www.earlyaviator.com/archive/1a/images/LVGburns.jpg

[Keg]

More distortions or just too keen to sink the boot in?

...to ring people up personally...

Others kicked off with the phone call business. My original comments were that I'd 'let them know personally'. Quite a big difference and much of it depends on the type of relationship I have with the individual.

Another example. I heard some great feedback about one of our Senior Checks a while back. Next time I caught up with him I passed it on. Didn't call him, just gave him some information that he may not have been aware of. There were a couple of points for him to consider- and I didn't know if they were true or not given that I wasn't in the sim- but I passed them on for him to take or leave as he saw fit. I suppose what I should have done is encouraged the individual member to fill out a FCR so that the managers could handle it. :rolleyes: :ugh:

It's a shame that you feel we can't actually pass on/ give each other a quick call with some feedback.

Anyway, my point is made, your point is made. We'll agree to disagree. My shout next time we do beers but you'll have to tell me who you are first! :ok: (I can see it now. With that offer on the table there will be no less than 732 pilots all claiming to be Autobrakes4 so that I can shout!) :}

[ruprecht]

I'm Autobrakes4, and so's my wife.....:)

[Iron Bar]

So am I !!!!! :ok:

[Keg]

729 to go! :}

[Thin Air]

I'm auto brakes4!

No only joking, put me back up..

[Tempo]

Keg,

You can hardly dismiss the fact that by requesting a registration/flight number and offering to contact the crew member(s) involved about an 'alleged' incident posted on pprune, you are bound to get a few remarks about that sort of assumed responsibilty. I have absolutely no problems with feedback if the feedback is warranted.
Here are a few examples Keg (I will use the F/O as an example because we all know Captains never requirefeedback)

a) F/O intentionally ignores SOPs.......feedback yes
b) F/O almost scrapes the tail on rotate......feedback yes
c) F/O stuffs arrival up and ends up hot and high......feedback yes

d) Captain/FO follow SOP's but unfortunately shine their lights on another aircraft at night causing the pilot to become most distressed. Pilot believes that QF pilots lack basic airmanship and posts a thread on Pprune..........feedback NO

[Jabawocky]

If the person who made the claim initially is willing to give his real name and details to Keg in PRIVATE not on the pages here, and Keg finds out its one of his best mates on the 76 that stuffed up.....surely over a beer or a "spot of tea" they can have a friendly conversation amongst themselves.

I know I would not be offended......... of course if some half-wit went off on an annonomous tip off from a post on pprune and went to management..........then I would be really pi$$ed off.

There is a difference :ugh:

Wasting too many electrons and pixel lives here now........ :rolleyes:

[Spanner Turner]

mavrik1 said
Try being an engineering and arriving an A/C at night with taxi lights in face at point blank. All you can do is look away, who knows where the aircraft ends up! Been happening for years accidentally, just human error. Harden up!


keg said
Some people sure are touchy about getting feedback from others



I wholeheartedly agree with both of the above. When you come on to bay with the full christmas tree lit up it's fairly annoying, given that we're doing our best to keep a lookout for all manner of obstacles and hazards that you may not be able to see. As mavrik1 said, it's just an accident, not done on purpose, no big deal.

I've always found it worse at late afternoon/dusk when it's probably hard for you to see the light pattern and the worst is the 767 with those NLG mounted LDG lights - same goes for the later 744's with NLG mounted LDG lights.
Don't get me wrong, it's certainly NOT a big deal, just annoying.

As for getting feedback, this is when you'll receive very positive yet indirect feedback from your engineering colleague such as....

"Ground to flightdeck, sorry it's taken so long to plug the headset in and make contact with you , but I can only see two white dots at the moment and it's taken me a while to find the headset jack. Could you turn your lights off please?"

:E :E

Seriously guys, all in fun, if the worst you guys do to me is give me a better suntan all is forgiven.:ok:

Now............about those 13 items you've just written up. :{


:ok:

P.S. By the way, I'm autobrakes4.....where do I get my beer.

[airtags]

think we're all going to check the switches - so let's move on

appols for my tardiness on 34 earlier today (correspondence to the Capt pls)
AT :E