ATCs as pilots

[David Hurst]

I visited a flying school in UK today and there were some ATC cadets starting their 15 hours flying training as part of their ATC training programme. Fine and dandy.
However, I was told that nowadays only National Air Traffic Services pay for this training. All the private airport operators have stopped this part of the training to save costs and their cadets stay at home for this part of the programme. Not so fine and dandy.
Further than that I was also told that NATS are reconsidering that part of the training programme and it may be dropped. I hope this is not true, especially as NATS is now controlled by the airlines. It is important that controllers have some inkling of the problems faced by those (usually) above them!
Anyone know any more?

[Margaret Thatcher]

15 hours in a light single for an ATC chap seems to be at the very least misleading for them.
I would suggest that 15 hours in a clapped out old sim with a retired airline captain would serve them better. Real aircraft feel, hold, visuals, speeds etc etc.

If you're going to train someone or give them an insight to someone elses job then it should be done properly or not at all.

However any insight ATC have into our world and ours into theirs has to be encouraged.

Actually I think I just contradicted myself, but there you go! :confused: :D :eek:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Regrettably I never obtained a PPL, having come into ATC via a route other than "cadetship". I am not convinced that holding a PPL or even having experience of flying light aircraft is of much benefit to someone working at one of the larger airports although it might well be almost essential for those controllers employed at training establishments (EGTK, etc)..

As a Heathrow controller I believe that I learned much more from the single ride I had on a BA 747 simulator about 20 years ago and the odd visit "up front" when I have flown on holiday.

I'm told that our emergency training sessions at LATCC are now attended by a pilot, which I suspect is of huge benefit to us (I'll find out on Friday!).

[gul dukat]

Margaret,lets bung them in a simulator is on the face of it a fine idea BUT these are people who are VERY VERY VERY wet behind the ears who have most likely NEVER done anything beyond the very basic aerodrome course .The nuances of holds etc would regretably go way above their heads .I am one of the poor sods who gets them straight from Bournemouth and I have to be honest and say that it is at times difficult for them to translate what they learned in the ATC simulator into what goes on in the real world! By all means encourage a deeper understanding of PILOT/ATC interfaces but lets do that in the context of proper familiarisation flights and courses(such as those which were held at Cranebank on proper simulators with proper relevant trainers)at a later stage of their training . Certainly encourage them to experience the thrill of flying BUT lets make it relevant for everyones sake .

[Herod]

Hows about 15 hours, plus a couple of sim rides, plus as much jump-seat time as they can get. I fly through the London TMA every working day. I rely on the guys and gals down there to get me away and back safely, and the more they appreciate my problems the better chance they have of succeeding.

[Loki]

Ok, I`m ancient but in my day it was a full PPL in year one, then some right hand seat work in a Dove doing SRA`s at dear old Hurn, airways flying in a light twin in year three and a week playing with BEA simulators.

What happened? The accountants got loose, the whole course got cut to 72 weeks, a tree hugging course got put in and the poor students of today get , as someone said 15 misleading hours. I think its called progress.

[Lew Ton]

Woodman, it has never been the case that non-NATS units have sponsored PPL training. NATS use to do the whole hog, now it is just 15 hours.

[HugMonster]

I have many times upset ATC'ers with the suggestion that they don't have the faintest idea of what goes on upstairs.

Mostly they poohpooh the notion, and seem to think that pilots are there to obey their bidding, not that they are there to provide a service to air traffic.

Yes, it is important that pilots should have an idea of what goes on at LATCC and at their local ATC unit. It is several times more important that ATCO's should have a good understanding of what happend on a flight deck.

I know of many pilots who have visited ATC units. I have yet to see an ATCO on my flight deck on a fam flight.

[gul dukat]

Huggy correct me if I am wrong but your company(as was)was NEVER in the fam flight scheme!I for one would have been delighted to join you on a fam flight but how would that have been acheived?.As for aircrew visiting units?All I can say is that in 15 years at BFS I have seen mainly military guys and I think less than 5 BMA/BMi guys(and that was mainly to discuss matters of pushbacks!)As has been said above the accountants have been let lose and they know as much about providing a service to customers as my backside knows about snipe shooting !

[HugMonster]

gul, the company I worked for in your neck of the woods did provide fam flights - just not on all flights! ;) Also, there were one or two of your colleagues that one or two of my colleagues had doubts about due to their areas of residence...

In fact, when I was working over there was the last time I remember having an ATC person (actually an assistant) along for the ride.

[chiglet]

Hug, and Gul
At MAN/EGCC we HAD a "local" fam flight scheme.
As an ATSA, I flew as often as I could, [once every 2 months or so] and would have loved to fly more. I have been on about 6-9 fam flts, but have only seen 4-5 aircrew in either the VCR or the ACC.....
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[HugMonster]

Well, one of the points I keep hammering is that liaison between ATC and aircrew always needs to be better, no matter how good it is. I have been in both VCR's and ACC's i gul's part of the world, and flown one of his colleagues on a fam flight. We also invited his colleagues to our unit for a party - not one RSVP'd. Also, chiglet, in your area, I have visited on one of your emergency training days, seen the VCR, played on the sim, seen your colleagues from Area, Pennine and Anglia in action... and not seen one of your colleagues on a fam flight.

I wasn't paid for the time I put in. Certainly the beancounters need to allow time for familiarisation and liaison. But how much are you prepared to put in?

[BLACK_BUSH]

Evening Huggy
NCL ATCO's always had an open invite during my time at Gill,and we frequently invited BHD,BFS and STN chaps and chapettes along on trips. Reciprocal visits to their "offices" were actively encouraged by ATCO's.
It does help if both parties have an understanding of how the other half live. :p

[HugMonster]

Wotcha Bush, me old mate. Agree with you 100%. In my FSO position I also reiterated that invitation to NCL ATCOs. Not one took it up.

[shlittlenellie]

Hugmonster; perhaps it was just because it was you! Really though, what are you going on about?

I've had Ncl ATCOs flying with me on several occasions and they are a smashing bunch. The manager of ATC has establised the post of Airline Liaison and ATCOs and ATSAs are flying 'fam flights fairly often.

[Spotter]

I don't think there is much to be gained from the "I've done 999 fam flights but only ever seen 1.5 pilots visit ATC" bartering.

The local fam flight scheme at my unit has been pretty successful and I'm happy to say that several pilots have taken us up on the offer of a reciprocal visit to ATC.

Since September 11 one of the major carriers has withdrawn from the local scheme, and the national "official" scheme has been suspended.

Locally we have decided to allow a few months breathing space before requesting flights from the remaining participating carriers. Hopefully by lying low for a while we will avoid precipitating any more carriers into withdrawing from the scheme at a time of nervousness about security and cost.

I'd be delighted to hear from any operator who would like to become part of our local scheme.

[ 12 December 2001: Message edited by: Fright Information Service ]

[5milesbaby]

The 15 hours I got from NATS was totally useless. However, I've now done many fam flights and have definately benefitted huge amounts from them (inc. the 2 from BMi). I just wish we could do them again........ :( :(

[Delta Whiskey]

Looking North from the antipodes it seems that ATCOs and FS in the European area are lucky to get famil flights - we were interested in getting "across the ditch" to visit a neighboring centre and sought to do it by way of a famil flight (2 birds with one stone sort of thing) - reaction from the airline approached was "if you need to make the visit then you need to pay for a seat". So we don't go on many cockpit famils.
Also don't get many visits from aircrew. I recall one in the last year, and our centre is located on the airfield, next to the aircrew long term carpark! Sadly not a lot of interest being shown.
:confused:

[Stan By]

I think that the 15 hours I had has in no way helped me be a more proficient area controller. Also, I'd like to do fam flights, but as has already been mentioned, the scheme has been withdrawn after 11/9.
I get the impression that Hugmonster doesn't like us ATCOs very much, from the tone I've implied from his posts on this topic and others, so to Mr Hugmonster, "I'm doing my best! We try and stop you banging in to other planes and all you do is grumble!" :D

[U R NumberOne]

Huggy,

Afraid I have to agree with Stan about your attitude towards ATC in a few recent threads - it really comes across as quite arrogant and superior, disappointing given your previous position.

I think we are both of the same opinion that better two way communication is highly desirable between ATCOs and pilots (not just on the RT) - and having organised two pilot/ATCO forums in recent years only to have a very poor turnout (from both sides), I'm almost tempted to admit defeat in trying to achieve this goal on a wider basis, instead endeavouring to further my knowledge through fam flights and liason with crews, in the hope I can pass the experience onto my trainees.

Sept 11th has curtailed the practice in more ways than one. I was recently booked on a flight and upon boarding found I knew the captain when he did a PA, but not wishing to cause problems or potentially alarm other passengers by entering the flightdeck (following a request with the cabin crew of course), thought it best just to stay in my seat. The type was an EMB145 - I'd never been on one before and given the increasing number of them in the UK, it could have been very educational to me - but this is the dilemma we are faced with.

Ironically the last jump seat I did in the summer was on a Gill ATR into NCL - how 'bout that. ;)