Dead Stick Landings 320

[HOTROD_0414]

Lot of Pilots aim to bring the aircraft on approach, all the way to 700/800 Radio altimeter with engine on IDLE. Talking to a TRE on Airbus, i was told this practice of engines IDLE all the way down to 700/800 R.A. is absolutely wrong and this can result into a dead stick landing.
With approach idle concept, does it make any difference, even if the engines are at idle all the way down? From airmanship point of view, i would like to have my engines spooled around 1000 ft, incase of a go-around. Does Airbus has any official note on this?

[Clandestino]

AFAIK all A320 that made deadstick landing after keeping engines at idle till 700RA were Microsoft powered. No IAE or CFM powered bus ever developed problems in this regard. Do you mind checking your friend's credentials and returning with explanation why would keeping engines at idle till two miles out be detrimental to anything except to FDM/FOQA

Stabilization criteria are all very well until they come in conflict with local noise and capacity regulations.

[PantLoad]

What are the criteria your company dictates for 'a stabilized approach'?

PantLoad

[Clandestino]

When we started playing with FDM. it was "stabilized by 1000AGL"

We said "Fine, but what we'll do with 160, gear up and half flap till 4 miles out?"

There was a pregnant pause.

Now it's still "stabilized by 1000" but with if ATC procedures so require it's "landing config by 1000', power and speed by 500'. Not applicable for non-precision approaches."

Everyone happy.

[Sciolistes]

Lot of Pilots aim to bring the aircraft on approach, all the way to 700/800 Radio altimeter with engine on IDLE.
Unless you intend to land flap up with no gear or capture the g/s at 800' RA after a 10 degree dive bomb I don't see how it is possible to arrive at 800' RA without a significant amount of power.

[Dream Land]

Unless you intend to land flap up with no gear or capture the g/s at 800' RA after a 10 degree dive bomb I don't see how it is possible to arrive at 800' RA without a significant amount of power250 to the marker will do it.

Hotrod, did your TRE friend explain?

[PBY]

Sciolistes, are you actually a pilot? Of course, it can be done. If you are still reducing speed at that point, you can be at any configuration and be idle. But it is such a basic knowledge (PPL), that I am not even sure, if it makes sense to educate people on this, unless they are not pilots or are in a basic groundschool. That is why I have asked the question if you are a pilot. I don't mean it in a bad way.

[FlightDetent]

250 to the marker will do it. Wow. Hence goes the AMS ....

[electricdeathjet]

Ever notice how the engines go to 'High Idle' when the flaps are deployed? It's designed to improve engine response!
Config 3 landings on an empty aircraft or 3.5 degree approach? Thrust typically around 35-42% till touch down (very near idle).
So whats this rubbish about being spooled up at 1000ft to avoid a dead stick landing????? This is not a 777!
Come on :ugh:

[Sciolistes]

250 to the marker will do it.
FOQA says my tenure would somewhat shorter if I tried that :eek:

Never seen anybody aim to accomplish such an approach. Given that on the 737 it takes circa 600' to loose 20kts to clean speed with the gear extended I'm not even sure the flaps would have time to extend to 15 by 800' from 250kts at 1500'. Perhaps we'll have some spare time in the sim one day...

[A Comfy Chair]

Sciolistes,

I take it you fly the 737.

Your comments about having to dive bomb the ILS, or needing thrust to maintain the G/S are just not accurate in many aircraft.

The 767 for example will happy fly a 3 degree ILS with Flap 5 at idle thrust. (It can be a slippery little bugger!)

So, if you want to be idle thrust at 800ft it would be easy. join the ILS at Flaps 5 speed (say 180 kts) and fly 180 down the ILS at flap 5... you need idle thrust to do this (and you might still start accelerating). Gear Down, then Flaps 20 at about 1200ft and then 30 all while at idle. When the flaps hit 30, and you're at flap 30 speed, power up.

This is essentially what we do in my outfit, EXCEPT we arne't lunatics configuring that low :} Take the gear and flap at 2000ft, so we are stable with power up at 1500ft.

[FullWings]

Slightly off topic:

Does anyone know why a power off/failed landing is historically referred to as "dead stick" rather than "dead engine"? If the stick had died you really would have a problem. (Sioux City comes to mind...)

[Herod]

Of course making the entire approach at idle can result in a deadstick landing. There's carb icing to consider, not to mention the possibility of the plugs fouling up. :ok:

[HOTROD_0414]

My companies criteria for stabilizes approach is 1000ft in IMC and 500ft in VMC.
Personally i would not like to have my engines at idle all the way. Even if it is at idle, isn't whole point of having approach idle is to help faster spooling us of engines, incase of a go-around? http://static.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon11.gif

[dweeks]

People may be forgetting that the engines go to high idle when the flaps are at 1 or more. My operator says this means the engines are spooled up, at least in terms of the certification requirements for engine acceleration times.

So, if you're at F1 or more, you can be at idle (high idle) but you'll get quick response to any thrust command.

[jb5000]

This topic is really confusing me?

A319, Flap 2 will hold about 160 knots at IDLE.

Just inside 5 miles, managed speed, gear down, flap 3 then flap full (if required).

Brings the power up nicely by 1,000'.

If you choose to put the gear down at 4.5miles instead the thrust would be coming up at 700-800'RA. Still safe and have no idea what this "TRE" is referring to by 'dead stick landings'.

Our operator makes no mention of thrust setting in the stable parameters, which are strictly enforced at 500'RA VMC and IMC.

[I love twins]

Config 1 selected then engines will give you approach idle. This slightly higher idle is in order to meet limits on the maximum time permitted between selecting TOGA thrust and actually achieving it.

Most people I know are actually trying to achieve idle thrust all the way down from TOD to stable at 1000'.

I would be interested in hearing the reasoning from your TRE friend.