NVFR

[rodmiller]

Hey people,

Just wanting some advice on NVFR.

Would it be an advantage if i got the rating in a twin>?

Thanks in advance

[Lasiorhinus]

Get your Instrument Rating in a twin, which lets you fly a twin Night VFR as well, if required.

For the initial NVFR, stick to a single, because its cheaper.

[the wizard of auz]

I did. the biggest advantage is being able to fly a twin at night. :ok:

[Lasiorhinus]

Surely, Wiz, thats the only advantage of ME-NVFR over SE-??

[the wizard of auz]

:E:E your catching on there mate. :ok:

[300Series]

"Get your Instrument Rating in a twin, which lets you fly a twin Night VFR as well, if required."

True only whilst your instrument rating is valid and has not expired. If you happen to let it expire and for instance you are out somewhere in your baron near last light or whatever and you have to get back you can't do it NVFR. I did my initial in a Single then a while ago i upgraded it to a twin, purely on that basis. In the end completely up to you. It probably won't make any difference.

300

[Andy05]

Flight By Night By VFR,
2 navs (of at least 300nm or 3 hours duration) as either PIC or ICUS.
each exercise shall exceed a distance of 100 nm from the point of departure and shall provide at least 1 landing at an aerodrome other than that of departure.
Recent experience,
3 takeoffs and landings in the last 90 days
and either a night Nav within the preceding 6 months or a flight check by night

the details are in the CAO 40.2.1 page 16

[Capt Fathom]

Unless the rules have changed.....PS, looks like they haven't

You are completely correct. In 35 years of flying, I still don't have those requirements.

Some pilots went out of their way to do those cross-countries, just to enable NVFR during IFR operations.

Before GPS Approaches became the norm, numerous airports had no navaids and therefore no letdowns. The only way to get into those airports at night was NVMC.

You went IFR as far as you could, then nominated NVFR Procedures for the last route segment! Otherwise you couldn't go below the LSALT!

[Lasiorhinus]

.... unless you fly a visual approach:ok:

[ravan]

rodmiller, from an instructors perspective, I would suggest you do the NVFR (SE or ME depending on the depth of your wallet) and do some of the solo cross country flying required for CPL at night.

That way when you get to your Instrument Rating training you will already have the required 5 hours PIC at Night (and have done it enjoyably) and won't have to flog around the circuit in a C152 for 5 hours at the last minute.

Just a thought.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

If you don't have a NVFR separately to your CIR and your CIR expires (not renewed as opposed to currency) so does your ability to fly NVFR. This also means if you only have a SE NVFR and your MECIR lapses you cannot fly a multi by night.

You can do all your training SE and do the NVFR test in a multi though.

[Tinstaafl]

Used to be that if you held a SE Class 4/NVFR and subsequently gained a ME CIR DCA/DofA/CAA/CASA/whatnext would automatically cancel the SEO NVFR restriction. Maybe they still will remove the restriction if you ask.

Like others have written, holding a NVFR rating lets you fly NVFR if/when your instrument rating lapses. That can be damned useful if you're based in the outback without ready access to a CIR renewal ATO.

Depending on how one's training course syllabus is organised it's possible to cross-credit the various types of hours you need to do to go from ab-initio, PPL, NVFR & CPL so that hours aren't repeated and money wasted on extra flying while still meeting all the minimum experience requirements. The last time I designed a 150 hr syllabus it included the 2 hrs PPL IF as part of the NVFR IF requirement, which in turn was included as part of the CPL IF requirement whilst the CIR syllabus included credit for all that IF done previously. Further, the NVFR flight time was contained within to the 150 hr CPL, as were the flight tests for PPL & NVFR and time needed for CSU/retractable endorsements plus an optional basic aerobatic &/or tailwheel endorsement. About the only extra time was another 5 hours if a multi NVFR or CPL was desired ie a 155 hr CPL.

I'm not trying to bignote my syllabus writing skills, just trying to show that done carefully it's possible to finish with a PPL, NVFR, CSU/retract + one or two other endorsements & a CPL and the only additional cost is ATO fees for PPL & NVFR tests. Even ATO fees may not be applicable if your school has one on staff. For such a (relatively) small additional cost why wouldn't you take the opportunity to have the extra qualification and remove a potential 'gotcha' down the track?

[milad747sp]

I noticed, we can complete all MECIR and NVFR within 150 hrs CPL but practically the total hours will be around 160-170 to get CPL-MECIR-NVFR.
The cross-credit could save massive money.
The question is, which should be done first, NVFR or CIR? and what is the minimum dual hours required for NVFR, if any.
2nd question, since the Twin aircraft is already CSU-retractable, Can it be considered as CSU-retractable endorsment for CPL when we do CIR training rather than doing CSU-Ret. in single engine?

[The Green Goblin]

Before GPS Approaches became the norm, numerous airports had no navaids and therefore no letdowns. The only way to get into those airports at night was NVMC.

You went IFR as far as you could, then nominated NVFR Procedures for the last route segment! Otherwise you couldn't go below the LSALT!

I always found the NVFR more restrictive having to have an alternate within an hours flight time of the planned destination (if there is no navaid or you are not trained to use it). If you are below 5700kg you can plan to an aerodrome at night IFR without a navaid provided you have a nominated alternate. Obviously if you are above 5700kg you can't plan to an aerodrome at night that does not have a navaid.

.... unless you fly a visual approach

Yeah you can fly a visual approach at night provided you meet the planning requirements with alternates and don't leave the LSALT or MSA until the circling area (or the 3 mile zone if there is no published instrument approach)

NVFR at night in a twin is for scungy GA operators trying to skimp on airway charges.

[eocvictim]

Do it in a single, there is no need to do it in a twin unless you have no intention of getting a CIR. As for you missing a renewal or letting it lapse, just make sure you're signed off for a PIFR which gives you an additional year. You still wont be able to fly NVFR in an ME but once you fly IFR you'll never go back. Personally I hate VFR unless its pottering around the hills on a sunny summers arvo.


Flight By Night By VFR,
2 navs (of at least 300nm or 3 hours duration) as either PIC or ICUS.
each exercise shall exceed a distance of 100 nm from the point of departure and shall provide at least 1 landing at an aerodrome other than that of departure.

This is only for charter purposes, who is flying NVFR charter? Just go IFR its easier. For private, the only additional requirments to upgrade your SE NVFR to ME is that you need 2 hours visual instruction. Which could be included in your CIR.

5 hours dual navigation night flight time including:
(i) 2 hours visual instruction by an approved pilot; and
(ii) in the case of subparagraph 6.1 (b) — at least 1 cross-country flight in dual flying that satisfies the following requirements:
(A) the duration of the flight must be at least 3 hours;
(B) the flight must cover at least 100 miles; and

The rest of that section only refers to NIGHT experience, not NVFR experience as applicable to the charter requirments. Its pushing the implied meaning but thats how its writen.


Recent experience,
3 takeoffs and landings in the last 90 days
and either a night Nav within the preceding 6 months or a flight check by night

the details are in the CAO 40.2.1 page 16


Note that this is ONLY for passanger carrying.

Otherwise its 1 t/o and landing in the last 180 days and 1hour night flight within the proceeding 12 months.

[PPRuNeUser0163]

Correct me if im wrong (though I just completed my NVFR rating) but I believe you need 10 hours total to sit the Night test as well as the aforementioned requirements.. Obviously all in the regs.

Out of interest for the OP, At place im learning to fly at we do NVFR after PPL and do the 5 command, enabling the student to sit for CIR, and then to get CPL.. this is on the 150 hr course btw.

Hope that helped;)

[tmpffisch]

The rest of that section only refers to NIGHT experience, not NVFR experience as applicable to the charter requirments. Its pushing the implied meaning but thats how its writen.


However it's in the NVFR CAO. How far can you push the implied meaning? I doubt that'd stand up infront of a judge, FOI or chief pilot.

[eocvictim]

good enough for my past 3 CP's CFI and last 6 ATO's I've flown with.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that you push "intent" at your own risk. While they've agreed with me, there are a lot of loopholes I've found which no one has ever faulted but dont know anyone game to use them (myself included).

[tmpffisch]

Really? I take that back then :ok: