REX EBA to be put to vote: no back pay

[Curved Approach]

Let's break things down and put them simply:

The Company not offering back pay

The RexPC is not going to endorse the EBA that they put to vote!!!

The Company telling the RexPC either they put the un-negotiable offer to the pilot body for vote or they will reduce the offer/withdraw it!!!!

Things to consider prior to voting:

Current state of the economy --> Maybe consider voting yes for the 5x5x5% or the balance of 9x3x3% if the company had negotiated in good faith and offered back pay.

The company's threats to withdraw the un-negotiable offer and even REDUCE IT if not put to a vote--------> EBA Vote = NO (well done LKH you just put the nail in the coffin for my vote)

We all know that our Check and Training department will vote yes to this EBA offer as they have got what they want through training and checking increases. This makes it all the more important for us to consider what is on offer and vote NO.

"IF the pilots accept a substandard EBA again this time, then he will continue to offer less and less" (Apache)

The period we want back pay is a period when the company was booming, full loads etc and we were all working our rings off on days off and on leave days for them and they have the audacity to no offer back pay :yuk:

[TROJAN764]

No back pay - Hmmm! :hmm: Looks as though QANTAS have lent their EBA negotiating team to Rex management.:(

[louiethefly]

The vote to accept the REX management EBA offer is a vote to encourage blackmail of the worst kind. I don't know how some of these guys can sleep at night, but then when you occupy the moral low ground, it's usually not a problem! As a pilot group we usually have expectations of fairness,but in this case we are dealing with a cultural shift caused by the influence of someone with a different set of morals to our own. The answer? Don't encourage immoral behaviour in this instance....

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Aren't these the same clowns that not so long ago were complaining about other airlines "poaching" their pilots? Are they really that stupid?

[Curved Approach]

I couldn't agree more ladies and gents.

Let's try and keep the thread constructive and avoid waffling on AND be sure to back up your views with a NO vote.

It is imperative that we all vote to have our voices heard (unlike our flight attendants who have ended up with an EBA voted yes to by about a quarter of their numbers as so little of them voted!)

[TweetTweet]

vote No !!!!!!!

[FlyingChipmunk]

"NO!"
Wonder if the FOs know that if they said 'Yes' to 5%, they will take a total of about <$7000 compounded before tax, over the next 3 years.....based on a starting base of $42,000.
Better to take nothing and hold your head up high, than let the whole team down and agree to being slapped in the face.....over, and over again:ugh: :ouch: :ugh: :ouch:

[onehunghigh]

NO!!
IT'S TIME TO MAKE A STAND AND GET PAID WHAT WE ALL DESERVE AS PROFESSIONAL PILOTS! :ok:

[Ron_E_Xenos]

Correct me if im wrong please gentlemen, but if there is no backpay, we are already over 6 months past the old agreement so ie half way through the first year.

So.... 5% / 2 = 2.5%

Therefore its more like 2.5 for the first year, then 5 x 5.

No thanks.

[aussie1234]

At least you guys still have a job and your company hasn't gone under. Any pay is better than none. We had an awsome EBA which is no bloody good if no planes are flying.

[Zed]

True Mate.

But it was not your EBA that sent them down the hole.

But Dodgy management did.

[Mr. Hat]

Whats the bet during this eba time that talk of recession, depression credit crunch and inevitable layoffs or retrenchments at REX surfaces in the media.

[SIUYA]

Look.........

I don't want to rain on your parade(s), but the strident NOs etc really aren't doing you folks any favours!

Many of you don't come from a generation a 'long way ago' which got involved in a 'dispute' that shall remain nameless. HOWEVER.............if you were from that generation, then you'd realise that ther's some wisdom in the old saying 'DON'T BITE OFF YOU NOSE(s) TO SPITE YOUR FACE'.

The reality is that the general public couldn't/don't give a rat's ar5e about what you think, despite what woopwoop whatever and his idiot mate think after getting pissed in some pub in Nyngan. :ugh:

Point is (and the ONLY points) the general public would see it, particularly those in rural Oz and who aren't working in a pub serving woopwoop whatever and his idiot grazier mate, who by the way IMHO should be BOTH out working................you REX pilots DO (still) have a job, you ARE (still) getting paid to do the job, so STOP F*CKING complaining!

READ aussie1234's post before trying to attack me (again) for pointing out the stupidity (reality??) of your ill-advised but persistent belief that the 'wage fairy' is going to come and sh1t in your bank accounts as you'd like...........it ain't going to happen!

So..............the simple answer to the assumption that Joe Public gives a bugger about you guysis .....NO, he/she doesn't!

Get over it. :mad:

[apache]

SIUYA....

No one really gives a rats @rse what Joe Public thinks. This is about a fair days pay for a fair days work, in line with INDUSTRY STANDARD (that phrase ring any bells???).
It is all very well to say that "pilots wages made us go broke".... but if you do NOT pay the correct wage, then pilots WILL LEAVE for greener pastures, and the aircraft will not fly themselves. Again, this can be blamed on dodgy management!
No one has even mentioned the dispute of 2 decades ago, and to be fair, it has bugger all to do with these negotiations. REX pilots are just trying to ensure that they have a viable and rewarding future career with the airline. They can see that others WILL leave in droves, once the bigger airlines start recruiting again very shortly. the PILOTS have expressed concerns with management that other pilots WILL leave. it is the PILOT GROUP that seems to be most concerned about the rate of attrition due to INSUFFICIENT TERMS AND CONDITIONS.
And lets not fool ourselves that this is ONLY about backpay.

AND WHY HAS THE AFAP BEEN SO BLOODY QUIET DURING ALL THIS???????

[SIUYA]

Apache..........

You said:
They can see that others WILL leave in droves, once the bigger airlines start recruiting again very shortly.

But according to IATA:
IATA December 2008:

Recession is now forecast for North America, Europe and Japan late this year and into 2009. The last major downturn in air traffic, driven by recession rather than terrorist attack, was in 1991 when global passenger traffic (RPKs) fell 2.6%. We now forecast that global passenger traffic will fall by 3% in 2009

Weakness in travel markets has lasted three years in previous recessions. We do not expect a return to traffic growth above 4% until 2011. Economic forecasts imply that airline traffic will remain below the previous trend over the medium-term, with passenger travel forecast to be 9% lower by 2016 than pre-crisis industry forecasts

It is clear that expectations prevailing during the summer for the growth of passenger and freight markets will be disappointed both this year and next. By 2010 we forecasts that the level of global passenger departures will be 10% lower than expected by the industry before the recent financial crisis. International freight tonnes are likely to be 13% lower than expected by 2010

Once recovery is solidly established by 2011 we forecast growth rates that are much closer to industry expectations.

Someone's wrong, and I don't think it's IATA. So your inference that recovery seems to be imminent is a bit fanciful and far-fetched I think. Read JetA-OKs post for a dose of reality.

You also said:
No one really gives a rats @rse what Joe Public thinks.

Dumb@rse! :ugh:

[apache]

2011 is not that faraway!!!!!

[Curved Approach]

SIUYA: your comments are completely destructive in this thread. Some wisdom, there is more than some in this phrase; and it's exactly what LKH is doing, true Singaporean style. then you'd realise that ther's some wisdom in the old saying 'DON'T BITE OFF YOU NOSE(s) TO SPITE YOUR FACE'.
and the phrase is cut off anyway. I and many others believe this company could be in an even stronger position if it wasn't for LKH as our Chairman. (He should be removed IMHO as impossible as that would be)

your ill-advised but persistent belief that the 'wage fairy' is going to come and sh1t in your bank accounts as you'd like...........it ain't going to happen!

This is nothing about chasing fanciful wage increases beyond what is deserved from some wage fairy. If you actually read previous posts this is about negotiating (something LKH is not doing) for a fair EBA which is going to bring us closer to where we should be after previous wage/benefit cuts and freezes to make this company what it is today.

2011 is not that far away, we all know this industry goes in huge waves. And SIUYA (as you say you are not involved with REX) but if you spoke to the majority of the pilot body you would discover they are sick of having The Company cry poor every time the EBA expires for varying reasons.

We can only hope that this majority of pilots votes where there mouths are when our hard working RexPC EBA team puts a EBA to us to vote on which THEY ARE NOT GOING TO ENDORSE AS IT IS SUBSTANDARD!! And I can only dream that some of our check and trainers will also vote NO to stand by their fellow pilots both present and in the future of our airline.

[Curved Approach]

Do not lose sight of why we have been offered 5%! REX could easily come out of this sounding like the good guy offering 5%. But the offer on the table was 3% or you can have 5% if you GIVE US BACK the profit share and share gift; LKH isnt going to give us anything without taking back.

Correct me if im wrong please gentlemen, but if there is no backpay, we are already over 6 months past the old agreement so ie half way through the first year.

So.... 5% / 2 = 2.5%

Therefore its more like 2.5 for the first year, then 5 x 5.

We are 8 months past.... so in reality all that is left to go into your back pockets of the 5x5x5 (minus the 2% we are losing in profit share and share gift)

is 1% then 3% then 3%. (before tax in your pocket from the "wage fairy")

Just to make everyone aware historically the Commission will not award back pay. We can try (with our ever so strong and efficient AFAP representing us) for back pay in the Commission but unlikely. And this is what makes me so angry :* The RexPC negotiates in good faith to be jerked around and put back and put back. Planned meetings postponed due to crew shortage so our PC members go and fly and earn $$$ for The Company; then to be slapped in the face by not giving back pay. Disgusting :yuk:

[aussie1234]

What an outright crock of sh!t.

If a business can't make money whilst rewarding their staff appropriately they don't deserve to be in business.

Go get a job flying for nothing if that's your attitude :ugh: At least you'll have a job eh??


That's right i know many drivers up here that just want to go flying cause we love flying we haven't got our head so far up our arse that we think the world owes us something. If it pays the rent puts food on the table and i get to go flying i'm more than happy.
It's all about choice you can choose to stay and work at what management offer or leave and go somewhere else where other management are paying better it's all about choice. If your all so tough and wingeing about how put off you are about your pay how many flights have been disrupted because all of the crews have said "We're not flying!"

[apache]

Aussie,
that is oversimplifying it, and that is not fair.
I don't want to just be able to pay rent and eat... I want to be able to make a career out of flying, and be able to retire in 30-40 years and say " I have had a wonderful life, enjoyed my whole career, and I have a beautiful house, car, wife and well educated kids to show for my hard work". And that is getting less and less affordable when getting less money than a receptionist.
It is not JUST the money that the REX pilots are fighting for. It is the TERMS and CONDITIONS in total, along with a FAIR AND EQUITIBLE increase to bring them in line with other companies.
The fact that pilots get rung up on most of their days off, asked to work, and then made to feel like a low life because they won't, or won't extend for zero incentive is one of the reasons that pilots are jack of the company.
The 5 year fight to get a raincoat: The substandard uniforms that even homeless people refuse from St Vincent de Paul society: The lack of resources to properly do the job: the harrassment of pilots after an incident: the nit-picking of sim instructors: the verbal abuse from managers when you take an extra 100kg of fuel..... to name just a few.
THEN, when you do decide to leave for a better job, the company shows NO remorse over your decision, doesn't even want to know WHY you are leaving, and cries foul over the fact that even though you have given them 10 or so years of your life, you are being "poached" by another airline... whom YOU decided to apply to!!!!
This EBA %age increase is a double edged deal. IF you pay REX pilots enough money, a lot of them would stay a lot longer, as to leave would mean a wage DROP... and not a lot could afford to do that. You also save on training costs associated with training a replacement, and, heaven forbid, there be an accident due nil experience....well- what cost that?
Bluffing is fine. But when the other side calls your bluff, you want to be holding more than a pair of twos.

[KRviator]

SIUYA, I'm not a REX pilot. Not even a commercial pilot actually, but I am planning on making a career out of aviation now I can actually afford to pay for my training.

That being said, I'm doing it because I want to, because I love flying. Many others don't but they see aviation as a career in some dreamy way, "An Airline Pilot?, oh, you must be well off then..."

Nothing could be further from the truth, particularly when I'm earning more than a lot of Captains in the regional's now, and I'm not even qualified in my trade (train driving)...Same goes for a hell of a lot of other's too, but that leads to the people who only see it as a job...

Who in their right mind is going to pay 40, 50 60 or even 70,000 for a licence and some ratings and then be shat on for god knows how many years, trying to pay a loan back in many cases, when there is bugger all reward at the end of it? A few ideological idiots like me, but that's going to be about it soon. People aren't going to tolerate the pay and conditions in GA for too long, then again at a regional in the hope they'll get a start with Qantas 10 years down the track...Why shouldn't the REX guys hit up the company for some decent reward, especially as the company, from all reports, is doing fairly well, recession notwithstanding?

It isn't about backpay, it is about Pilots (both airline and GA) being paid what they are actually worth. Not necessarily more, but as has been said, a fair days pay for a fair days work. It's even enshrined in our national anthem... And again, as had been said previously, if Rex doesn't pay it, then people will leave for those that do...

[ThoughtCrime]

Nobody really has a good reason to vote YES.

Guys who want to stay... you have something worth fighting for.

Guys who will go at the first opportunity... you have nothing to lose.

Dont believe that spin-doctor c:mad:p about our EBA dragging the company down. The EXISTING EBA is dragging the company down if anything, it certainly did the shareprice, staff & market goodwill, network... etc

And his little spin in FF about laying off flightcrew. Well you're still pumping guys through ground schools arent you, and still cancelling (profitable) flights due no Captain arent you. Thats just a shot across the bow to make the weaker ones think they'll be out of a job if we dont all be good boys & girls and cop what we're offered and be thankful for it.

And to say "well its better than nothing" well maybe you are right. But that also applies to the sweatshop worker on 5c/day.

Generation Y pilots (there's more of them around in rex thanks to the shortage) also need to think about their next few decades in flying as a career and be involved in EBA's, AFAP etc instead of waiting for it to be done for you by increasingly tired boomers & X'ers. Infact you could apply an often used quote to describe Gen Y... "I want it (a better EBA) and I want it NOW"

Vote no. Vote no. Vote no

TC

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I dont even work there and I vote no!
SN

[louiethefly]

The reality of the current economic times is that it allows the unscrupulous to prosper on the backs of the employees of an organisation, much like John Howard using the terrorist threat to justify wastage on airline security, when all we have to worry about are drunks and druggies.
A profitable airline like REX should be able to reward those who have had a hand in achieving a good result, just as Virgin has had to tighten it's belt in the face of a poor one (share price 24.5c, as opposed to REX with a share price of 90c). The singaporean model is one that relegates personnel to the same level as an inanimate asset, more of a time wasting nuisance in many cases, but if you look around at the other singaporean dominated industries, the same situation is evident. The only saving grace is the astute financial planning that make these businesses successful.
If you want to be employed in a business that is inclusive in it's management, then steer clear of the above model, and jump ship, otherwise be prepared to fight for reasonable conditions, but also be mindful of the company's financial standing when negotiating a fair (to all parties) EBA. Companies actually made profits during the last recessions, there is no reason why REX can't do the same, but it may take a bit of inclusiveness - don't hold your breath ! Ultimately, it won't be a salary increase that drives an airline under! Nuf said.....

[apache]

Rex half year profit results ae in the link.
Seems that they are still makiing more money than ever, but WON'T reward anyone who isn't "management"

http://http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20090218/pdf/31g3kx9ztf33sq.pdf

decide for yourself!

[TweetTweet]

The weakest links in this vote will be.....

Check and Trainers..... most won't care about the EBA now as they have their pay rise......AND
Cadets/Newest recruits.


To all these people out there reading this thread, please think about the rest of us and hard we have been working and what we stand to NOT get, should you vote yes.

It is quite clear what we all need to do... VOTE NO!

This is again a scare tactic, they will always come up with an excuse as to why they can't pay us more......lets keep saying no until we get what we want. 3% or 5% is NOT it.!!!!
:ugh:

[aerocom]

As I understand the C&T allowance has only been temporarly agreed to by the PC and management, and not put to a vote yet by the pilot group to stop them leaving and will be incorperated into the next EBA only if the pilot group agrees they are getting correct money or not enough in a vote with the EBA. So the C&T are still on side.

[Curved Approach]

Every night I think long and hard about about which way to vote in these tough economic times with many jobs in our industry hanging in the balance.

Sometimes I convince myself to vote 'YES' to just get some sort of pay rise now in these hard economic times rather than fighting The Company with Protected Industrial Action.

THEN I LOOK AT THE FACTS:
This is a company := which "has invested approximately $6M to date into the Pilot Academy and the Rex Pilot Cadetship Scheme." Who knows how much more will be spent to build "a state-of-the-art Training Centre on the land as well as accommodation, administration and recreational facilities" at the hangar and 2.4 hectares of land purchased at Wagga Wagga Airport for $1.55M.

This is a company := which in the half year ended 31 December 2008 has made a profit of $10.52M after tax up $185,000 from the half year ending 31 December 2007 even with the huge expenditure on paying out leases and AAPA.

This is a company := which even with further exditure on the AAPA Wagga Wagga still forecasts a Profit After Tax for the current financial year equal to last years of $24.3M.


So easy to convince yourself to vote 'NO'!!!


All quotes and figures taken from Half Year Results For FY08/09 and Appendix 4D and Media Release dated 18 February 2009 "Rex to Construct Pilot Academy at Wagga Wagga

[Curved Approach]

Aerocom,

will be incorperated into the next EBA only if the pilot group agrees they are getting correct money or not enough in a vote with the EBA. So the C&T are still on side.

I think you are a little misconceived; the C&T (not all of them I know, but most) want to get this EBA pushed through in whatever form so their C&T conditions are put in concrete before The Company reduces them too!

I hope I am wrong with that statement but sadly its how I see it. :uhoh:


EDIT: P.s. I/we shouldn't distance the C&T's and the rest of the pilot body. The most important thing if we end up pursueing Protected Industrial Action is that we stick together as a pilot group and push for a fair EBA outcome for both us and also The Company.

[sockedunnecessarily]

NO.

And if you think your love of flying is more than enough, you are a fool.

Even the youngest Rex pilots will one day have a family to feed. Think about that cadets... will you be able to explain to your child why you can't buy them something they want, send them to a reasonable school or feed them nothing more than home brand 2 minute noodles around the dinner table (which would be more of an upside down cardboard box than a wooden table if LKH had his way).

You aren't just voting about a bit of money while you learn to fly the SAAB, you are setting the scene for your entire financial future in aviation.

[STLTH]

I recently heard that the REX staff at Wagga are going to get or have been approved already a 20% pay rise, has anyone else heard the same? Obviously its not for pilots as there is only engineers and admin staff at that base but even still. Hopefully this is not another rumour and that the pilots will be notified of a suprise, but somehow I think its more rumours, we shall see.

[kookabat]

Unless the WGA staff are on a different EBA to the rest of the company I doubt that they would get a 'special' payrise, surely?

[Two Wheeler]

Yep,
Heard a similar story recently.

[ohyeahright]

Also heard if this 'new' eba is not voted in,
the monetary advances already enriching out c&t staff may be retracted,
and even possibly need to be repaid.

That will lead to a fair and un bias eba vote ------NOT

[puff]

I reakon LKH is a 'businessman' up there with dixon. The vote goes out, the pilots vote No, Rex Media department goes to the nations media about the 'greedy' pilots in this 'economic' crisis rejecting 'good' pay offers and gets the public right behind it. Brings out figures about rex growth and other airlines and companys retrenching people etc etc.

I can see it already. Sadly

[apache]

So, why not go to the media FIRST? beat them at their own game? Surely the AFAP has a media department?

[Curved Approach]

'greedy' pilots in this 'economic' crisis rejecting 'good' pay offers

Baahaha. You are right they will spin 5% as being an awesome pay rise. The fact that they are taking back Profit Share and Share Gifts to give us that will be totally forgotten.

Surely the AFAP has a media department?

Unlike our 'honourable chairman' and company we negotiate in good faith. Once the NO vote gets up and we push for Protected Industrial Action all stops are out on talking to the media.