CRM Conundrum, Part 2

[jolly girl]

Last fall I had the opportunity to sit in on an undergraduate CRM class. I have to admit my experience was a bit surprising (further details available in the Safety and CRM forum). The most disappointing aspect was the attitude the students had towards flight attendants - quite condescending - with the instructor's response including the comment "You have to love FAs, if it wasn't for them, we (pilots) would have to put down the newspaper and serve coffee."

So this has me wondering how effective CRM is at increasing the frequency/efficacy of flight deck / cabin communications.

thoughts?

[excelone]

I think it's a pitty if that is the attitude that was coming across during the training and even more so if the instructor was going along the same lines.

The only thing I would hope it that part of the attitude that was coming across on that occasion was more based on humour and tounge in cheek views, than what pilots/trainees really think. I know as cabin crew, and especially when away from pilots, we have all sorts of views and jokes about pilots personalities, abilities and various things but would not intend for these to be expressed towards flight crew generally and certainly come across not while at work or during training.

For that reason, I think it's the attitude of the trainer during training that is most worrying. Yes outside of work we can have all sorts of jokes and opinions about each other and I personally think that's fine. But once at work or inside the classroom, it's essential to revert to serious mode and ensuring the right CRM, teamwork, respect for each other's role attitude is encouraged. (even more importantly so when working with brand new pilots who have not flown with cabin crew before and so are just beginning to form attitudes)

It makes me think of the CRM excersise where you get a flip chart and make pilots brain storm "cabin crew" - depending on how to generate discussion, either the degrading rude memarks could be incouraged - in order to then work through and dispell them or to only encourage productive comments to highlight the importance, strengths and benifits of cabin crew. If doing a joint course, get the cabin crew to do the same for "pilots". Depending on team spirit, it can then be very enlightening to show each group, the other's comments.

[overstress]

Similarly, a well-known LHR-based carrier with its own training centre allegedly has cabin crew trainers teaching that the BCF extinguisher on the flight deck is behind the b****d and the water one is behind the w****r :eek:

[TightSlot]

I have a bad feeling about where this thread is going...

[RVF750]

It is a good job that some of us "drivers" have seen the light then.

I always treat my colleagues in the cabin with professional courtesy, equality and respect, and deplore any pilot who doesn't. There are many situations where your life depends on the boys and girls behind you, and times they depend on you. This week's CHIRP says it all.

Good CRM, a proper NITS when needed and taking a few moments to engage and confirm your crew are all on the same page of the script is invaluable, and pity the poor obnoxious Skipper who thinks otherwise. It'll cost him one day.

Jokes and general banter are fine if the context kept genial and in the right place. The right place to make pilot jokes and vise versa is in shared sessions, and used as ice-breakers is no problem. Other than that, I can't see any place for them in a professional environment.

Then what do I know, I'm only a poor prop-jockey. My stripes are only yellow so I guess I'm only entitled to a quarter opinion?

[jolly girl]

Hello all,
Sorry my original post on this subject was so obtuse. I often wish there was some sort of cognitive test I could take (much like the astronauts prior to EVA) before I hit the “send” button.
So anyway.
My interest in the subject is along the lines of accident/incident prevention/mitigation. As cabin crew, you are the experts of what is normal in the cabin, the sounds and visual cues, what is normal and what needs further/increased attention. There have been several visible cases (such as the Dryden F28) where cabin crew have had the information necessary to the successful resolution/outcome of the event/flight, but due to sociological factors, this information was been either disregarded or not transmitted.
It is these sociological factors that caught my attention in the CRM class I sat in on. These classes were all male, and during role-playing exercises cabin crew were portrayed as clueless and inept, along the lines of “Shelly” from “the House Bunny.” I know this is far from the case (look at all the lives affected by the safe evacuation of the A320 on the Hudson) and the professor’s comment was in reaction to my question regarding the student attitudes. I perceive the professor’s response to be one of discomfort, the uni he instructs for is known (at least internally) to be an environment biased against (if not outright hostile) to women, with several faculty previously sanctioned (to the point of leaving) for broaching the subject. I suspect he felt the discussion had entered career-threatening territory and was seeking safer ground. Which brings us back to my questions regarding the integrity/efficacy of CRM training. Did this professor do a dis-service to his students in a manner that could affect their performance during line operation?
So my question to you is: how effective do you feel current CRM training is regarding encouraging the free flow of safety and/or operational information between flight deck and cabin professionals? Do you feel the training you and/or the flight crew you work with have received support this objective? Are there areas that are effective (and why?)? Are there areas that could be improved (if so, how?)?
I thank you in advance for your inputs,
Jolly

[The Real Slim Shady]

My briefing to the CC starts with:

Me and XXX are in the front doing the ZZZ and the YYY in ABC-DEFG.

The aircraft is on stand 1, we don't have a slot and the Purser has the flight times.

I then brief the weather, refuelling with pax on board, security and then I include the statement " Any decision you make is delegated by me, that means your decision is my decision: if you decide to offload a passenger I will back you 100%. We don't carry drunks or anyone who is abusive".

We either work as a single unit or forget CRM as a concept.

[Anagard]

Totally agree with you Eclan.. except you can't teach common sense!
CRM / CLR whatever you want to call it is crucial especially since 9/11 and the separation of the flight crew by the cockpit door. Airlines used to teach the CRM portion of training in an integrated manner, in which FAs and pilots took the class together - which I wish they would still do. A previous airline went so far as to teach "Key Words" to be used in CRM so that the FAs could communicate "more effectively"(be taken more seriously) by the pilots ; such as "I feel 'Uncomfortable' and 'Unsafe'." :eek:

[flyblue]

Eclan,
my experience of joint CC/pilots CRM is quite the opposite. We've been doing it for years at my company, and it is more axed at crew coordination and communication than rant and complaint. We start the course with a cabin sim mission together (changes every year), then have a debriefing, then a group exercise and finally a presentation by the instructors (usually one or two CC, one pilot and one Safety Instructors).
The course is aimed at making working together smoother, identify the obstacles and achieve good crew coordination, not at pointing out each other's failures at working as a team, so the latter has never happened in my experience (and never heard it happen from other instructors).
It is simply a Human Factors approach at functioning as a crew, which is finding solutions and not whose fault it is.

[wobble2plank]

Generally, in an emergency, the workload for the pilots goes up a 'tiny' bit. With the great outside world impacting through vastly increased radio chatter and the requirement to 'keep the aircraft safe'. The spare capacity to deal with other outside influences not directly related to the said problem depends upon the flight crew on the day.

Good CRM enables the Captain to reliably expect a standardised information package delivered to him through SOP channels with a minimum of embellishment to assist in his decision making.

That is the 'emergency' scenario.

As for cabin problems, I fully expect that the No.1/Purser/CSD will have briefed their teams to follow the correct procedures and the correct lines of communication in the event of any disruption in the cabin. The CC are trained specifically to deal with that scenario in the same way that I am trained to deal with aircraft problems. I have the confidence and respect for them that they will do their job correctly and to the best of their ability on the day just as I would hope they have the same confidence in me. As such CRM allows delegation of those decisions and responsibilities to the No.1/Purser/CSD.

The CRM training we receive has always been together with CC and highlights the problems, workload and time pressures put on those in front and behind the cockpit door. It has always worked well and most come away with a highlighted sense of what goes on in the others departments.

CRM is not 'fluffy bunny' it is efficient use, direction and co-ordination of all crew assets. It is particularly needed to enable a crew to function as a cohesive unit in the event of a major malfunction where time, stress, fear and anxiety may try to overturn training, experience and professionalism.

Ignore it if you wish but, to be honest after flying for years before this 'CRM' stuff started, it is one of the few good things to come out of the Human Resources department!

Just my spin.

:E

[BOAC]

Last fall I had the opportunity to sit in on an undergraduate CRM class. - a very disappointing comment indeed. Can you tell us where this was, what sort of students they were? Your references to a 'professor' are intruiging. Sounds like an 'establishment' worth canning. Hopefully this sort of attitude will die before the students reach an airline.

To answer your question, my experience of 'joint' CRM stuff in the real world has been positive too.