EXCESSIVE FUEL WASTAGE..

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Once again this morning we were treated to the spectre of a British registered heavy jet asking to hold in one of the London TMA inner stacks (OCK) for nearly 15 minutes apparently because his stand wasn't available. No, not at 5.30am... but a couple of hours later and well outside "curfew" time.

We gathered from the pilot that as Heathrow was on easterlies he was not allowed to land as he was some 20 minutes ahead of his scheduled time. We spent some time trying to pin down the exact reason prior... the airline denied that they placed any restriction on crews landing early.. we checked with the airport authority - absolutely no problem with a/c landing before a stand is available. We checked with Heathrow Tower regarding possible congestion on the ground - absolutely NO problem in finding a place for traffic to hold for a stand.

So.. at this time of major airline problems and aviation cut-backs world-wide can someone please explain the reasoning behind this bizarre procedure? Apart from the severe problems it could cause by holding in a busy piece of airspace for no good reason, the fuel burned would probably keep my aged Ford Escort going for ten years... I know little about the technical aspects of flying heavy jets but would it not be cheaper to sit on the ground for ten minutes with two engines off?

[Wino]

It is possible that because of the reduced flying time vs. plan that he may not have burned down to max landing weight yet. Sometimes a short cut is not always a good thing. Being over max landing weight would have either required dumping or holding till it was burned off.

Cheers
Wino

[411A]

Sure is interesting that....those that were NOT in command want to try to second-guess the fellow that was.
Some, it appears, have NOTHING better to do.
Get a life, guys.

[Tex Murphy]

We've got a few of you busybody blokes at our company too! Sad Gits! :rolleyes:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Wino - he'd come about 6,000 miles so I don't think it was a weight problem. This was not an isolated occurrence either - it's happened many times in the past.

Tex - I sincerely trust that your comment was not directed to me..!

[G.Khan]

Not sure if this is the sitution here, but BA would, (possibly still do), push on schedule from SIN to LHR but then slow right down en route in order not to arrive too early at LHR. This is very aggravating for following traffic as the ATC clearance for BA would invariably contain a mach number of "not less than" but once out of SIN airspace this was abandoned totally and everyone following then suffered from the imposition of unrealistic speeds and/or flight levels. Conversations on freq 123.45 generally, (but not always), revealed a "stuff you Jack, I'm alright" kind of response. Possibly, in this instance, ATC were able to chase them up along the way and ensure they kept a reasonable speed at the risk of being descended to a seriously unrealistic FL?
From a friend in BA on the B747-400 I understand that on time departures and arrivals within twenty minutes of schedule are paramount?

[moodymoosey]

This sounds like a co-ordinated slot problem - the runway slot held is, say 0800, and because of the generous sched and light winds the aircraft turns up STA -40, the slot committee review this and summarise that the operator is not adhering to it's slot.

Potentially very serious and after series of warnings, operators will have the slot revoked - worst case they can be banned from operating to the airport.

Always the problem with operating padded schedules. ACL (Airport Co-ordination lLd) are the people to ask)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Moody.... ATC does not employ "runway slots", as such, for commercial traffic at Heathrow. It appears to be down to some internal airline problem. I've heard that a magazine ("Three Fleets"?) mentions this procedure but I know no more.

[mcdhu]

Hang on a minute Tex and 411A, here is a London ATCer - among the best and busiest in the world - merely trying to find out why he was required to control an ac which would have been better off on the ground. If there was more to it, as wino suggests, then surely the crew owed ATC some clarification. This is just the sort of traffic which can lead to congestion and, therefore, flow control restrictions.
On a similar theme, I get seriously p**ssed off when, coming back to LGW at the speed of heat just before 0600L, with a night r/w slot, I find the airspace clogged up with the world's favourite airline's 74s and 77s slowing down and whingeing about not having night slots, thereby denying me, and all the others like me, the use of our night slots. Land and take the hit or manage your flight better guys.
Cheers
mcdhu

[Right Way Up]

411a and Tex wind your necks in! Director has asked a reasonable question.

[411A]

If LHR Director wants to be an aircraft Commander, he should sign up immediately for flying lessons.
Always amazing to me that ATC folks want to step into the pilots' shoes. IF they really want to know, why not call the airline management concerned?

[Nexus]

Looks like 411A's 'How to be a jerk in only 1265 posts' is a complete success.

[Right Way Up]

No I think he wants to know why his difficult job is complicated by a company's idiotic sop to delay in the air instead of delaying on the ground. London's airspace is busy enough as it is without this going on. And as someone else said earlier, going into LGW at night following the worlds favorite doing 180kts at 25 miles is not much fun either.

[411A]

If the Director really wants to know the answer to his question, all he has to do is pick up the telephone and call the respective airline OPS department.
The crew in the concerned aircraft does NOT owe any explanation to ATC, and the Director should know this. ATC has the responsibility of providing positive separation, not to engage in "question time".
Have noticed over the years that the LHR ATC controllers, although very talanted at their job, continue to question and are otherwise sarcastic to some crews. Would suggest that these controllers pick up the phone for their answers. THEN, if they don't like the replies, ask here.
It's called mutual cooperation.

[trevorinns]

411A your contradict yourself saying that that crew "does NOT owe any explanation" and then saying "it's called mutual cooperation"!

Surely Director may ask here or on the telephone - if no-one wants to answer then fine, Director and the rest of us will remain in the dark. I suggest that you engage in more "mutual cooperation" and less worthless replies, if you don't won't to answer the question then don't. Just don't bother with this diatribe - open another thread in Jetblast.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

411a.. It was because telephone calls to various offices failed to elicit a reason that I posted my note on here. The airline concerned, the airport authority and the local ATC unit all denied that it had anything to do with local procedures. When crews adopt non-standard procedures in a busy TMA I respectfully suggest that ATC has every right to ask why so that steps may be taken to prevent a recurrence.

Keep taking the tablets...

[411A]

Never concerned with Jet Blast... and I am sure that LHR Director is a profesional of the highest order but....
"Some" airlines have very strange ideas indeed, and the best way is to query the OPS department to find the answers. Therein lies the problem, he may well not find a suitable or rational explanition...not surprising from a British aircarrier...and some (all) of our American carriers as well.
Still, if they want to hold, why not further from LHR, so as not to disrupt traffic?
Surely a "penalty box" can be devised for these guys.
It's called, "don't call us we'll call you".

[mcdhu]

411A, Your profile gives little away about any experience you might have in flying around Europe and UK in particular. You seem to be unaware of several factors related to this subject.
Firstly, we don't have room in the airspace here for what you call 'sin bins'. It is seriously congested over here from 0600 to 2200L every day and an ac abusing the airspace by boring holes in the sky is compounding ATC's problem.
Secondly, I hesitate to say 'without exception', but I think it holds good, the UK airlines operate in an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect between ATC and pilots; we never forget that, when the chips are down, the man or woman in ATC is your best friend and that the service they routinely give us is excellent. My personal view is that UK ATC is probably the best in the world - but I haven't been everywhere! Thus, when we have a problem that requires more than the usual cooperation from ATC, we are quick to declare it in the knowledge that all possible and reasonable help will be forthcoming. Isn't it called CRM?
And thirdly, telephone calls to airline ops to enquire about the conduct of a particular crew can, for all the wrong reasons, bring about an atmosphere of mistrust and I am sure that is the last thing that Heathrow Director would wish to do. His was a reasonable post and did not deserve your dismissive and rather unpleasant attitude.
I have attempted to be constructive in this post and hope that perhaps we can continue in this mood - if at all.
Bring back the Preston FIR!
Cheers all,
mcdhu

[411A]

Am all to aware of the UK airspace, mcdhu, as I started to fly into LHR (and Europe) on a regular basis in 1974.
I should think that a sin bin could be devised without too much difficulty, how about (for handoffs from Europe)...holding over DVR at, say FL100, max speed 180 knots, one minute pattern (for high fuel flow) with a "don't call us, we'll call you" policy.
Shouldn't take too long for them to get the message.

[BEXIL160]

411a..re holding at DVR, not as simple as you state. Inbounds from Europe Don't route via DVR to the LTMA (G1/UG1 is effectively Eastbound only). LTMA outbounds DO route via DVR to Europe, and London City outbounds (not there in 1974) regularly cross abeam DVR climbing slowly thru your proposed hold to Fl120. DVR holding at ANY level is a nightmare for ATC. I know, I am valid on the DVR sector (amongst others).

We still do not have a rational answer to LL DIRs reasonable question. These slow guys outside the accepted 0600 curfew cause a lot of problems to AREA Control as well. I'm also interested in the reasons behind this.

Rgds BEX

[mcdhu]

Well folks, in the absence of an answer to Lhr Dir's query, it looks like we can't logically take this one any further except to say that inefficient use of controlled airspace within Egtt is bad news for us all.
Cheers
mcdhu

[dan296]

So how do you actually become an air trafic controller?It has alays been my second choice after a pilot and it has always interested me. I know the training takes place at Bournemouth, but are there any specific qualifications/degrees needed and other skills??

[Gonzo]

Check out the ATC forum, lots of threads that may interest you there.

Gonzo.

[4Screwaircrew]

Is it possible that the cabin was not yet secure? If the aircraft has made up time or the service has been delayed a wide body must take quite some time to get all packed away to land.

[Semaphore Sam]

That this is a company-convenient procedure causing system constipation seems undeniable.
Such constipation usually can be accommodated, but, if used without discretion, (bad wx, etc) could result in pile-on constipation, and, possibly, disaster. It should be stopped. Get it down, NOW!
Sam

[mcdhu]

I don't believe it; it happened again! Picture the scene. Three of us, JMC, Expo and AMM rushing towards Mayfield at 0330Z on a Sunday morning and up pops this Big Airways Jumbo (Birdseed 20??) and actually says,'We're trying not to land before 0345.' So yes, you've guessed it, the 3 of us are then subjected to about 25 extra track miles while Birdseed's request is acceeded to. Talk about wasting time/fuel; they're experts at it.
Land and take the hit, Nigels, or manage your flights better; we're all trying to save the Company's money at the moment.
Cheers
mcdhu :eek:

[Dick Deadeye]

Yeah, life's a bitch McDoo, just pick your teddy bear up, get back in your cot, and get on with the rest of your life. :rolleyes:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

It happened again at OCK this morning - BA going round and round for no earthly reason at FL130 when he could have been on the ground. BA Ops said they knew of absolutely no reason why the crew had decided to hold. Bizarre, eh?

[Thunderbug]

Director

I find it strange that those what lurk in the offices don't know the source of these events - 'cause they wrote it.....

It goes something like this and features in the briefing notes for London.

Schedule Mangement

Unless printed instructions from Ops control are provided to captain before departure every effort should be made not to land before the following times
Westerly RWs. Not before STA -30 min on stand between STA and STA - 15min.
Easterly RWs. Not before STA -20 min on stand between STA and STA - 15min.
If necessary reduce cruise speeds and delay departure from outstation.

The reason - so they can manage the arrivals using the minimum amount of staff.
I have crossed the atlantic at M.74 to achieve the said criteria, but entering the hold is, I feel, a bit drastic. But crews have been sent letters for arriving early, even only a few minutes outside the laid down figures.

Lunatics + Asylums :confused:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Very many thanks, Thunderbug. I'll pass this information to LATCC Management so that it can at last be stopped.

[mcdhu]

Thanks Thunderbug and a good call from LHR Dir; let's get this abuse of our airspace, and other peoples' fuel and time, stopped!
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Cheers
mcdhu

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

They're still at it... heavy jet from North America mid-morning didn't want to land before a certain time. Seems an utterly bizarre procedure for an airline which is drastically in the red.

[sky9]

The strange thing is that it must surely cost more to hold a 747 for 15 minutes that pay 200 people for 1 hrs work. . .Possibly this is one area where an enterprising member of staff can use the staff suggestion scheme. Surely if you don't want to be on chocks ahead of time hold in the maintenance area for the 20 mins.

Heathrow Director. .If you want to stop it hold him west of Cardiff for 20 minutes then put him in the hold again to make him late on chocks. :)

[mcdhu]

Heathrow Director, Did you get anywhere with the idea of asking LATCC to contact BA about Thunderbug's post (see yr post of 01/11). Hope all's well down on the coast-it's fine from where I sit!. .Cheers. .mcdhu

[Captain Airclues]

E-mail me with the flight number HD and I'll find out the details and get back to you.

Airclues

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Captain Airclues ]</p>

[fireflybob]

Do the shareholders know that fuel and time is being wasted in this manner?

It makes ecological nonsense to waste fuel this way.

Who an earth thought of dreaming up such stupid rules?

[maxy101]

Can I just add to the debate? Good luck in getting any BA manager to change their minds once a decision has been made. The problem we have is Flt Ops managers don't have the authority to overrule other stupid decisions. The main reason we have these silly restrictions is lack of terminal space and night restrictions at terminal four.{Roll on T5} Unfortunately, BA don't give the captains the authority to overrule these restrictions even when we know we wont have a problem on the day.....So the poor crew is left with the problem of HAVING to depart on time out of the United States {cos they are "time sensitive"} and knowing we are going to land 30 mins ahead of schedule and get a bollocking from our own management for landing early. Whats' a pilot to do?

[ornithopter]

Flying back from the States late last year, we were told by the Captain that we were not allowed to arrive early. We pushed back on time and sat on the ground for a while, then flew slowly home. Same story as Thunderbug. Ridiculous.

[Young Paul]

Might one ask what impact prolonging the sector would have on the allowances received by the flight crew?

The job of the airline captain is to operate his aircraft in a safe, efficient and punctual manner - . .safe because he wants to get home;. .efficient because he wants his passengers to be able to afford to fly next time;. .punctual because he wants his passengers to want to fly next time.

I can't see how such inefficient practices can benefit a company. I suspect personal agendas are more likely to be at stake - which is why the company couldn't come up with an answer.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK on the last few replies but can anyone crew member explain why they don't hold on the ground? My colleagues in ATC at Heathrow have assured me that there would be no problem finding a place and I recall from my 23 years there that we'd often do this without any problems.

[Cough]

Heathrow D - From a T1 BA boy - The normal SOP for us (never found a skipper to do anything different) is to take your slot, land and then sort it out. But we may quite often fly slowly to get as close to the required landing time as possible.. .Having said this we normally don't land at the crack of dawn so that resources are not available (Longhaul taking all the really early slots generally) and have shorter sector lengths that winds have less effect on our arrival time. i.e. the whole business is less of a problem.

[Thunderbug]

Director

Sorry to hear that this problem is recurring, I thought it had been sorted. Why anyone would want to volantarily fly holds is beyond me; we get enough practise at LHR as it is!

I think the reason why people take the delay in the air rather than on the ground is down to human nature. i.e the punters.

Passengers don't like sitting on the ground at their destination airport and are prone to get aggitated and act even more stupidly than normal.

I think these guys doing loops over the Surrey countryside are just taking the easy option.

:)

[Capt Pit Bull]

Since our integration into Big Airways we have received the same edict.

You have to laugh really. If you get an on time slot and a tailwind I have sometimes arrived 45 minutes early on a flight time of an hour and a half (schedule say 2 hours 15). I'm not loading 45 minutes holding fuel (cos I'll get a bollocking for that as well), and there is no way I'm going to be as dumb as to ask ATC to let my fly the length of France at mach .50 to waste the time en route (as suggested by the company). Can you imagine that? Half the fleet flying in line abreast at FL280. The French would (quite rightly) go bonkers.

So I just arrive early. Heven't had a bollocking yet.

I've just had a brainwave. Company wants aircraft utilisation up by 10%. If everyone divided their cruise speed by 1.1 that would do it!

CPB

Overdue for a Bollocking & Frontal Lobotomy

[keendog]

The reason for this must be obvious, although quite insufficient.. .Most pax do not know or care about STAs slot restrictions, stand availability or fuel burn. The point is that delays while on the ground (at either end of the flight) are perceived to be the fault of the airline,but delays in the air are easily palmed off onto ATC.. .Airlines like to promote an image of an outfit where you walk on to the plane take off, fly, land and then get off. If you have to fly for a bit longer, that's ok cos you can blame ATC and most pax won't mind. If you sit on the ground for a bit longer pax get unhappy.. .Airlines will have done market research showing the truth of this and that's how these edicts find their way into the system, although I expect it's quite hard to get someone to admit it.. .Should they come clean and simply explain to the pax that, whilst they may not like sitting on the ground, it produces a lot less noise and expensive hot gas than holding?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Keendog. You're probably right. I recall being on duty when a certain lady politician went out of Heathrow some years ago. In her typically charming way she had issued instructions that once she was aboard the plane must start and taxy immediately and from the time it started to move it was not to stop - presumably to "conserve" fuel. Unfortunately she was quite a bit early... so it started as soon as she was aboard and we then had great fun routing it all around the airfield to waste 15 mins until it's slot time.

[Capt Pit Bull]

On the extremely rare times when it does turn out that my gate is still occupied (and this is just as likely, if not more so, when you're late as early), I just say words to the effect of "Well, we're here, 30 minutes early, sadly the bonus prize for being so early is that our parking stand is still occupied!"

Most of the time you can check out stand availability with the agent via company frequency, but by that time you're not far off top of drop anyway so holding would be the only option. The information so gathered can go out the window anyway as someone misses a slot or becomes unrestricted. In my experience, arriving significantly early is a function of it being a quiet time of the day (otherwise its departure slot or hold / lengthy vectors anyway), so stand availability isn't a problem.

The bottom line is I can't remember the last time I had to wait more than a minute or two for stand, but if we had had this policy in place earlier I would have been delaying departure, or holding / reducing cruise speed regularly.

This is a typical condition, namely that instead of being allowed to manage the flight in a sensible manner, I find myself constrained by some ill concieved edict from the company, or required to start making lengthy box 2 radio calls as entering the TMA.

Silly, Silly, Silly.

CPB

[Lou Scannon]

It couldn't be the Captain trying to maximise the crews allowances could it?. .In the past I have overtaken BA aircraft into London who were trying to get into "box D" or whatever they call it.

Visors down and cabin pressure set to combat!

[M.Mouse]

Exile from Groggs and Lou Scannon

I am sorry to disappoint you but delaying a flight to secure more allowances is not something I have ever seen or practised and in fact the allowance system is not quite so easily abused. We sometimes get a request from our CC colleagues to be a few minutes later on stand because it triggers another allowance for them but the FC allowances do not work like that. Also Box Ds are long gone.

Back to the original subject. Most of us are just trying to do our job well. We have pressure to leave on time (passenger perception, station performance etc) but then are not supposed to land early (lack of parking stands, lack of staff etc). Landing and sitting on the airfield I agree is the best option but that really upsets the passengers. So if anybody has the solution, which is in fact T5 then all suggestions are welcome.

Heathrow Director

If you can apply pressure to our management I am sure that will be far more effective than anything we can do. I agrere the situation is ludicrous but contrary to the beliefs of the more puerile contributors here the problem is more complicated than it would first appear.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

They're still at it.... midday today BA inbound from the middle east wanted to hold for around 10 minutes. When asked why he intimated that the stand wasn't ready. We said that was an unacceptable reason and he should hold on the ground; he agree to "carry on".

We work damned hard to assist guys who are short of fuel yet we still get these bananas who think nothing of wasting fuel simply to avoid waiting on the ground. Anyone like three guesses as to how they explain the delay to the pax?

[Empty Cruise]

Uh-oh...

I also hate telling the pax that "ATC has caused us considerable delay..."

But it feels so much better than landing early and having to keep the pax onboard for 20 min. The average SLC is not informed (NOT their own fault, seriously) to a level that enables them to understand that yes, the A/C is on the grounbd but no, you cannot leave it yet. That discussion never occurs while airborne :D

However, most pax feel justifiably enagered when sitting on the ground, unable to get out. It is stressful, and the poor people think they know what is happening - airline incompetence. Therefore, we have adopted a policy of "The brutal truth", where we welcome people to leave the aircraft at remote parking, from where they will be bussed to 50 m from a gate - and then sit & wait in the bus instead of the aircarft. Or the driver can let them out - so they can wait outside in N EUR perfect WX conditions. It often calms people down when they are told:

"Sorry, the terminal area is only that big, right now it's full of people. We can get you off, but we cannot get you home any faster. Meanwhile, enjoy your luxorious 36 inch pitch while our flightcrew serves you another drink or cop of coffee - beats standing an extra 20 min. in line for your luggage". A good CC will get them singing as well ("We wanna'' go HOOOOOOME!" is a favourite), and so the time passes quickly. Best of all, everybody leaves the A/C reasonably happy.

So - let's either build a lot of more teminals & gates - or get the best of the current situation. It's either/or - don't bitch about it! Change it actively - or enjoy it! :p

Happy delays to everybody,
Empty.

[Rwy in Sight]

If an aircraft lands early it might be difficult to keep SLF seated and calm. If aircraft flies it is much much easier to keep them quieet by blaming traffic or any other reason.

How about that.

[Captain Stable]

And another very interesting thread! This, it appears, is what happens when beancounters take over safety- and airmanship-related issues.

I missed this thread when it originally was started. Glad it didn't turn into the shouting match that was threatened early on.