SAAB 340 rating: deal or no deal?

[oOjorelOo]

Hi everybody!

I just wanted to hear what your take on this deal is:

SAAB 340 TR including touch&go:s and 100h line training, 17,000€.

Deal or no deal, given the current aviation market?

[mona lot]

No deal,

Anyone who pays for line training needs help!

[Nearly There]

Good offer(compared to some T/P T/R you see advertised), but no deal.

Nothing to stop you enquiring with the 340 operators on there recruitment requirements, but I would imagine, even if you get a response, they will confirm the replies you get on here.

Big gamble at this time with several turboprop operators reducing crew numbers and the ones who have gone under recently, there is a healthy supply of type rated/TP crew not to mention jet crews in the que ahead of you.

[Reluctant737]

No deal, you can get a 737 type rating + 100 hours line for that amount of cash.

Still wouldn't reccommend that...

[oOjorelOo]

mona lot:

Actually, it's not a matter of paying for line training. The "retail price" for the 340 rating is 17,000€. The 100hs are just a nice bonus, and I will get some kind of payment during that time, too.

[oOjorelOo]

Reluctant737: where can I get that on 737? I don't think 737 is such a good idea. Lots of unemployed 737 pilots out there with loads of experience.

Nearly There: it's not just about building some time. I will get contacts and perhaps more time at the company, if lucky.

[INNflight]

If you got 17,000 Euros laying around in your bedroom, DEAL.

If not, and you'll have to beg / borrow / steal it from somewhere - NO DEAL.
17,000 Euros can feed you and pay quite some bills for a REASONABLE amount of time if you're single.....why shoot it off for some fineprint on your license that no operator cares about?

[fabbe92]

I don´t understand. If you have the money for a TR then why not buy it? Why sit around and whait for an airline to call you ans say hey we will pay it for you.

Here in Sweden at the school I will probably attend www.bfsaa.se (http://www.bfsaa.se) there is a type rating course with Ryanair. If at the moment I graduate, Ryan is in need of pilots, then sure as hell I will buy my TR instead of just sitting around without a job or being a flight instructor.

If you have a TR you will be more open to the airlines since they don´t have to pay for you and you can start flying directly wothout wasting time on line training.

[Rhodes13]

Fabbe92 the problem is that unless this person has a job on the proviso that he gets a type rating speculating on a type rating is near on useless.

The 100 hours won't get you anything as most companies want 300+ although more commonly 500+ on type, add to that you have to keep the type rating current every six months so forking out yet more money and that the saab 340 is a small time aircraft in the amount of companies that use it. Then you have the problem that the company you join will probably have its own way of operating the aircraft and SOP's and thus may not look to kindly on your type rating or may make you do it again using their procedures. The other big problem is that say he can't get a job on the saab 340 other companies may view it as suspicious and not want to take him on for fear of him leaving as soon as he can!

Not looking so good now is it?

PS you changed your tune about RYR, I mean according to you we had a dual enginge flame out on landing and didnt hire the cream of the crop!

If it was me I'd say no, there are still opportunities out there although you may have to travel to deepest darkest continents or do instructing, both great experiences. I did it and wouldn't change the way I did it for all the money in the world. Gave me a few good stories to tell and taught me more that I ever learned in flight school.

[nick14]

I totally agree with the above post, most companies would prefer to train you their way with their SOP's so as to condition you to their mentality. Ironing out bad habits is harder than starting from a clean slate.

The other opinion I have is that what happens if you have shelled out for a TR and the company you aimed for doesn't want you? You have now limited your job opportunities to 1 aircraft type.

my 2 pence

Nick

[ABO944]

There aren't many SF340 operators taking people on right now.

Robin Hood (yeah, I know) are about the only ones, but they want time on type I think and a minimum of 300 hours.

With over 1000 hours on type I can't find anything worldwide, so even though I don't agree with buying a rating, it's not my business, but certainly not the right time to be paying out all that money.

Who's the company anyway ?

PM me and i'll tell you if they're just after your money.

[adverse-bump]

aarrrrhhhhhhhh!

DONT PAY TO FLY C*&T

[MIKECR]

As far as UK Saab 340 operators go, the biggest(and perhaps only) by far isLoganair. They have roughly 15 Saab's in the fleet. They are currently fully crewed, including a full hold pool. No recruitment expected for some time. New FO's are also expected to self fund the TR in any case. Even with a Saab rating, you've got nil chance I would suspect. I actually know a current Saab rated pilot with over 2500 hours on type who's looking for work just now...says it all really!

[INNflight]

I don´t understand. If you have the money for a TR then why not buy it? Why sit around and whait for an airline to call you ans say hey we will pay it for you.

Here in Sweden at the school I will probably attend Commercial Flight & Aviation Training | Scandinavian Aviation Academy (http://www.bfsaa.se) there is a type rating course with Ryanair. If at the moment I graduate, Ryan is in need of pilots, then sure as hell I will buy my TR instead of just sitting around without a job or being a flight instructor.

Have you ever paid for anything yourself apart from chocolate bars???

Did it ever cross your mind that food you eat, the roof you sleep under and the bills you get REQUIRE MONEY????? :ugh:

With 17,000 Euros and not any ridiculously high standards you can eat, sleep and pay your bills for A YEAR if you're single. Why would you waste it on a TR which won't help you to get a fricking job anyways???? There's not even 5 SAAB340 operators I can think off the top of my head.

Grow up please, and realize you actually have to work for money. Mommy and Daddy won't be there forever. :ugh:

[Reluctant737]

Mommy and Daddy won't be there forever.

Their inheritance will :E

[fabbe92]

Lets say I want to work for Ryanair. How will I do that if I don´t pay for their TR course?

[Rhodes13]

fabbe92 theres a large difference between having a job offer on the proviso of getting a type rating and SPECULATING on a type rating! Get it?

Whilst its not ideal to buy a type rating, having a firm job offer from a company and doing a company course is a hell of a lot better than walking down buying any type you see in the hope of getting a job.

[BigNumber]

Fabbe,

You are quite right.

Sadly, if you don't want to be left with an expensive 'Beer Mat' = Licence then buying a type rating is probably the only way ahead. The market changed and it isn't going to change back!

Now, which type to choose is the clever bit! Pick very very carefully and I believe that you will find work. What can you fly that hardly anyone else can?

I don't think purchasing yet another 737 / Bus rating will help a low hour Frozen ATPL. What are the other possibilities?

[avrodamo]

No deal!
This is just crazy! A few years ago it was becoming the norm to have a type rating after completing your initial training. Everybody has a type rating, so then no advantage, apart from airlines are not paying for them anymore! Now it's starting to become the norm to have line training. Next thing...everybody does line training. Once again no advantage to gain employment. Airlines win once again as they are not paying for that.
You would not do this in any other profession, and at the moment no amount of line training is going to help.
Flying is a fantastic job, it really is, but it IS a job, and as such we should be paid for carrying out the skills we have learnt!

[BigNumber]

Hi Avro,

Yep, I would not disagree with anything in your post.

It is nothing short of madness that the Low Hour folks are falling foul of these Type / Line Training schemes. ( I believe that such schemes will not result in employment given the economic melt down ).

However, as it is now becoming standard practice to self fund at least a type rating, if you must self fund which type might get employment ?

Something quite rare but still actively working out and about in europe. How about the Shorts 360?

[MIKECR]

BigNumber,

The good old Shed, fantastic aeroplane. As little as 12 months ago, Shorts 360 rated pilots were probably as rare as tits on a bull but believe it or not theres actually already rated 360 guys(with hours on type) out there looking for work just now. I know that for a fact. Its also not the cheapest of ratings to get either, nor are there many authorised TRTO's in Euroland.

A jetstream 31/32 rating however.....:E could be just the way ahead. Not that I would encourage a rating without a job of course!

[BigNumber]

I think BenAir still hold a Shorts 360 TRTO in Europe? I reckon that it's not too costly at guessing around 11,000 ish Euro's, but stand to be corrected.

Is it not more likely that a Wannabe would achieve a job with this rating than the ubiquotous 737,320 etc?? Even giving consideration to those already that hold the rating.

BN

[fabbe92]

I obviously got this very wrong. How does it work? Lets say I have completed my training and I am applying for an airline. I don´t have any Type Rating. Don´t you need any type rating in order to get a job? Lets say I apply for BMIbaby without a Type Rating could they accept me and give me a position without a type rating?


But many airlines do pay type ratings right? These boys and girls that pay everything they got in order to go to Oxford Integrated and then got a job with KL, BA, Flybe etc. They couldn´t alla have had the money to pay for type ratings. This means that many airlines do pay for this right?

I know nothing of this so please explain this type rating deal.

:ok:

[MIKECR]

BN,

In Feb last year, Benair's 360 rating was 15k(pound sterling). Thats roughly 16.5k euro's in todays money. Not sure what this year's fee is.

I would definately agree on the turboprop front though...much more chance of a job rather than with a 737 or Bus rating. Following Excel's, Zoom's and Sterling's demise, there's far too many rated Boeing pilots probably looking for work. Anything on job offer just now would appear to be either short term agency contracts based in europe or full time position's in the Far east. Nowt much else on the job front I dont think:(

[BigNumber]

Hi Mike,

Yep, on my side of the tracks too. (I currently fly P1 on a privately owned Biz Jet.)

Corporate Aviation has been destroyed in the last 6 months. You cannot believe how many airframes are being rested, crews laid off, orders cancelled.

I just can't reckon on this being a short term blip in the market but more a sustained long term industry change. The boom's over.

Hence it was interesting to 'game' what I would have done had I been in the 'low timers' market.

Great to chat, have a good weekend if your off.. otherwise see you in the airway..

BN

[avrodamo]

Hi Fabbe,
If you were to apply to baby without a type rating you still could be accepted, then complete the rating with the company and be bonded. You could be taken on with a rating that you had paid for already and be taken on. The point here though really is paying for line training. Line training is flying that aircraft on money making routes, as part of the normal operation of that airline, and as such pilots should be paid for operating that aircraft. In my opinion, and I am sure that of a lot of others is that if that is a revenue flight, then the pilots should be paid, and not that one of the pilots is paying the airline.
The issue Febbe is that it is all about supply and demand. Supply at the moment far outstrips demand, so all the line training in the world is not going to help. The only thing it does by paying for it is keep training organisations going by filling the financial gap from the downturn in initial training courses.
I am confident that when the upturn arrives, and it will, that there has to be a shortage of pilots. Airlines are not paying for any training now, or indeed investing for the future, but this is coupled also with a downturn in individuals paying for their own training. Banks are just not lending large amounts of cash now to complete initial pilot training. HSBC and Natwest who were lenders for this in the UK have pulled the plug on that. Credit for pilot training is now very very hard to secure. Couple both of these together and you have a large decrease in pilot numbers. When will this manifest itself? Who knows, but when it does and the experienced pilots move about and are all secured positions again, the airlines will look at the low houred pilots to fill the remaining slots.
Many newly qualified pilots have to get out of the mindset that a type rating, and some line training will get you a job. It won't. At the moment it won't do nothing more than provide funding for the training organisation or the airline, and infact the more people who do it, the more diluted it becomes as a method for securing a pilot position.
I did pay for my type rating, but not before I had done my research, and knew I had a position secured, although not with immediate effect. It worked out for me for that reason only.
Others have also been lucky doing a type rating without the reassurance of an airline position but have got lucky and secured a position, at a time when SSTR were reasonably new, and the vast majority of newly qualified pilots did not have a type rating.
To do it now would be financial suicide. Save your cash, keep yourself current and just wait for the upturn. Whether you like it or not, the financial situation of the world industries, let alone the airlines, is in a dire situation, and you have to accept that now and probably for some considerable amount of time there will be only a handful of pilot positions, and of those they are most likely to go to experienced pilots already made redundant in the current financial climate.

[fabbe92]

Ok so basicly you can do like this if the airline dosn´t pay for ya,

You fill in a application and go to the interview and the tests etc, and after a week or so you get the call saying yes we have a job for you. So now I know that I got a job with BMIbaby so now I have to go and pay for my TR?

[INNflight]

The key item is....:

Paying for a TR is understandable (even though still ridiculous imho) when you got a contract with a carrier and they tell you: Go get that type rating, you'll fly for us then.

THIS way you know you'll have a job to earn your money back.

Just going out, buying a Saab340 rating for 17000 Euros and then googling the five Saab 340 operators in Europe trying to impress them is a hell lot of wasted money. :ouch:

[Icanseeclearly]

MIKECR.

you appear to be full of infinate wisdom or is that bulls**t

Tell me what is it you fly, who do you fly for, how long did it take you to get that job and how much did you pay for the type rating?

cheers

ICSC

[portsharbourflyer]

MikeCR, Eastern to my knowledge are the only Jetstream Operator in the country apart from one or two in Corporate use, as Eastern have their own TR scheme, I would say that a Jetstream rating would be of very little use.

I have nothing against people paying for ratings, as in better times I have known several who have secured employment by funding ratings (in particular I can name nine people who secured employment with the ATR rating from Skyblue between 2004-2007).

Although I don't necessarily approve of self funded line training, I can understand why some individuals opt for this route. When I consider that I took somewhere in the region of a 30000 a year pay cut to become a full time instructor, although this did lead to several interviews, a few offers and subsequently a turboprop job, I was laid off from the TP job last year. One has to ask with hindsight would I have been any worse off staying in my old job for another year and opting for a type rating and line training scheme.

However if you go through the list of commonly funded ratings then you can see at this moment in time there is no real good option,

ATR42/72, although Skyblue have had a good record in the past, Aer Arran have just made several crews redundant, Air Contractors and Aurigney are not recruiting. Although plenty of ex-pat contract work around this is only really for crews with experience.

B737: Excel and European Aviation going bust, means plenty of 737 crews around.

Citation: Euroepean Business Jets going under means that there are a few experienced citation crews around, this isn't the only biz jet operator to have made cut backs, so that rules out the citation rating. For a low timer in the biz jet world low hours can be a problem with regard to insurance.

A320: Easy had cut back a few crews, but I can't think of any major A320 operator going under, so maybe if you really were considering a rating a 320 and line training scheme would be preferable to the above types.

King Air, mostly operated single crew (very few operated on a multicrew AOC), hence unless you have between 1000-1500 hours and a couple of hundred hours of multi time you won't be able to get insured to fly it.

If you are single and no commitments heading to Africa is your best bet at the moment.

[oOjorelOo]

portsharbourflyer:

What opportunities are there in Africa for low-timers? Sounds interesting enough.

/oOjorelOo

[BigNumber]

What about the MD80 family?

Is that a rating of any value to the lower timer? I certainly see them around on my travels.

[BigNumber]

PHF,

I definitely concur that the CJ market is plump with pilots at the moment. It was very sad to see the demise of EBJ in particular. (Some really good folks lost their jobs).

I was really thinking more about the older Citation family members - they are still very much working - might get a wannabe a start.

BN

[portsharbourflyer]

Big Number, no idea about the demand for the MD80, maybe worth investigating.

In terms of opportunity in Africa, well it is possible to get work on a Cessna 206 as a low timer, you will have travel out there before the start of the season and meet the operators in person not something you can apply for over the net.

[MIKECR]

ICSC/Portsharbourflyer,

ICSC, why the hostility?? Firstly, I am speaking about JAA 'land' rather than just the UK. Secondly, Eastern are not the sole operator of jetsream's in the UK- Highland Airways for example have no less than 9 of them on the current fleet list. Thirdly, I never advocated at any point to buy a type rating on the of chance of getting a job. I was speaking purely hypothetically - a jetsream rating wouldnt be the worst of ratings to have(if one was desperate enough to buy a rating!). I know of 2 operators in JAA country who have within the last month interviewed people for J31/32 positions. A good friend has just got one of the FO position's on offer.

[portsharbourflyer]

There is Blue Island aswell, so three operators of the Jetstream in the UK. That isn't a good number of operators as a basis for funding a rating.

There may be a few other Jetstream fleets in Europe but it isn't a significant number.

[charliejulietthotel]

I am gobsmacked by some of the comments made on this thread, in particular to the Saab being "small time". Yes i am biased. I fly the Saab. But to be told it's small time... what planet are you living on? Everyday that lump of junk impresses me, yes, we don't carry many passengers, yes, we have 2 hamsters running around in the engine nacelles instead of engines, and yes, it is very loud, but when it resembles a flying iceberg rather than an airplane, and still plods on without making any fuss, or going to the back end of nowhere when its blowing a gail 90 degrees to the runway, horizontal rain, a short narrow runway, and it can still come to a stop with plenty of tarmac still available, it really does come into it's own. Granted it doesn't have all the capabilities or toys of the bigger jets, but it does have glass cockpit mixed with analog dials, autopilot, and my favourite thing (other than a hostie) the hold button! So in general, it does what it's designed to do brilliantly. Would like to see some of these jet snobs put a 737 into Orkney on a wild winters night.

In my honest opinion, leave the aviation industry for now, and go back to what you did before your training (if possible) keep ratings etc current and to keep your skills up to date, and when the markets have shown a positive growth over a period of say 6 months, go and get a rating on something, or an instructors ticket, or the old fashioned way of getting an interview and negotiation an option mutually beneficial to yourself and an prospective airline.
CJH.

[Blue Coyote]

SD3 type rating with HDAir if required.

J31/32 NOT with Eastern. Eastern hold J41 TRTO and Saab 2000 TRTO.

[Blue Coyote]

If you havent got a job offer don't buy a speculative type rating. That way lies pain and misery for all but a lucky few.

[BigNumber]

Any idea what a SD3 rating at HD costs?

[combineharvester]

Over 2 pages on this topic and no-one has mentioned "Saab-Arse" Any sector over an hour in length (what are they again ;)) and it feels like you've been kicked by a mule in the butt-tocks...

Agree with CJH, very capable "little" aeroplane. Shame it cant keep it's own hot water warm though....

[silverknapper]

I would say a shed rating is the last one anyone should be looking at, for several reasons.
If you're looking at HD proceed carefully. DO NOT pay up front. This appilies anywhere but particularly to a company which has lost almost every revenue stream in the last 6 months. Go figure.

[sami1]

Hi,

can you please guys suggest me where to do a saab340 rating in the US??

I know of Pan Am and Flight Safety, but are there others?

[ABO944]

Try doing 3.5 hours in a SF340, then and only then can you appreciate doing a cushty Loganair sector ;)

Oh, and if it was possible for the catering company to put the hot water on just before departure time, the water would stay hot ... gotta have that left prop above 1000 rpm to keep it warm :ok:

[m4x]

Posted wrong.

[Bukowszky]

I would do anything to get such a deal.

Here I am 28 years old, quit med school for flying (I was very very VERY stupid, I know.. but I was in love)

250 tt, CPL, IR, ME

and have absolutely no chance for a job.. I mean ANY job.. I certainly would be an instructor!
first of all, I do not have 400 hours to get an instructor rating.. and even if I had, I'd be still unemployed in my stupid country.

My very only chance is to become an airline pilot. In order to do so, I simply have no other option than buy line training. I have no personal connections in that very upper class, my family is more into the health dept.. but I still have this dream I keep chasing.

No matter what, I still need to get flight hours. I can get flight hours on a Boing 737 for third of the price of a Cessna 152! Why not get them on a Boeing? hm? why not? hust because you say so? anyone who has thousands of jet hours, who got all that for free, especially if he got the airline job just because he has connections to certain people.. you should stay quiet, very quiet and not lecture me on morals. that is just pure arrogant, sirs!

[dodi]

we looking for captain on saab 340 and we have line training for F/O on saab 340

[ABO944]

Any companies currently looking for experienced SF340 pilots ?

[MIKECR]

Avitrans in Sweden were advertising a few weeks back.

[5 RINGS]

Dear Bukowszky,

the guys with several thousands free of charge Jet hours probably deserved it by undertaking a proper professionnal screening process.

Who's the most arrogant...the experienced guy telling you "don't try to buy your way in the job...especially during a recession" or the "smart arse" who thinks he can jump the queue just because he loves flying???....

[RIX BT]

This is hard time to make right decisions... But it is up to You-deal or not to deal.:oh:
I reccomend to check out companies which are operating Saab 340, and before TR training-just contact with them.
Little time ago cargo company RAF-avia(based in Latvia) had been searching for crew of this type aircraft.
Link to this company contact info en - Contact Us (http://www.raf-avia.com/en/Contact_Us)