Air New Zealand Bail Out

[troppo]

Interesting time line of events, parties/politics involved and the Ansett connection.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=220727

Is there any room for further debate?

[billyt]

So you went back 7 years or so to find a news item and post it as if it was today. What are you trying to achieve?

[Q300]

It is old news. I don't think there is too much room for debate - we all know what happened and we all know the results.

[Skystar320]

Yup...

Air New Zealand screwed Ansett.... [Fullstop]

[troppo]

Sorry wasn't counting the years cos I'm not hyper sensitive. Merely posing the question based upon (today's)nz herald's article regarding the top 10 business stories of the last decade.

[mattyj]

Oh for Petes sake..Air NZ did NOT screw Ansett..Ansett screwed AirNZ and AirNZ thus needed a bailout from the NZ Govt. to survive.

Skystar..never let the facts get in the way of a good bitter recrimination!

[Q300]

What question?
I don't think there's too many questions that can be asked regarding the Ansett debacle. Most of the questions I can think of are answered in the Herald article you linked to.

The Ansett debate has been done to death.

I think Ansett is a bit of a sore spot for some people - people like to suggest that Air NZ could never get involved in Australia because of memories of Ansett.

And skystar... whose fleet was the messy inefficient one? Which airline was overstaffed with uncontrollable expenses? As far as I know, Air NZ was fairly stable prior to the AN takeover. Air NZ were hardly blameless, but it wasn't all their fault either.

[slamer.]

Hmmm some-what old news but interesting reading never the less.

Many of those dot-points (facts) just dont fit with how the Ozzy's choose to recollect events... so expect an abrasive response .... its the Ozzy way.......:ugh:

This matter has been done to death... I predict this thread wont last long.

[Skystar320]

I agree the thread will die rather quickly....

Shame about what AirNZ did... :oh::oh::oh::oh:

[AN Flyer]

Oh for Petes sake..Air NZ did NOT screw Ansett..Ansett screwed AirNZ and AirNZ thus needed a bailout from the NZ Govt. to survive.

Mattyj - while seven years of time has healed many wounds and cleared many heads, I'm sure there'd be at least 16,000 people who would disagree with you as far as that one goes. While I'm not ignoring the years of milking done by News Ltd and TNT which left Ansett in the poor financial position it was prior to the 100% takeover in '00, Air New Zealand's part in this devastating story is far from innocent. Their handling of the company in it's last year of operation was pathetic at best, and their retreat across the tasman a few days before the end was the act of cowards. They should never have bought the other 50% of AN - plain and simple, and not just for the benefit of AN, but the benefit of NZ as well.

I believe it's a moot point to any longer point blame at Air NZ or it's staff. Those responsible at NZ behind Ansett's final nail in the coffin are long gone, (I'm sure we all know who they are, and it's not worth getting into) - Air NZ has re-built themselves out the ashes into a good company with a strong CEO - Rob Fyfe, at the helm, and personally - I wouldnt wish any other airline crew or staff to go through what the team at Ansett did.

[fourholes]

:DWell put AN Flyer. personally I felt sick to the pit of my stomach the day Ansett folded and staff over the Tasman were left without jobs. I was ashamed of the Brierley fools who were running Air NZ at the time and pleased when their control of our company ended. None of those idiots are here now, they have been replaced, on the whole, with a management team with which I place a great deal of trust in, particularly our CEO. To blame the average Air NZ employee or hate Air NZ for wrongs done by another corporation (Brierleys) is just not rational.........but I suppose thats aviation for you.

[RevMan2]

Poor strategic direction, bad management, even worse due diligence.

[Shot Nancy]

Due diligence?

I would have thought that 50% ownership from 1996 would have provided 50% board representation and full access to all financials.
Who was not telling the truth?
I think Eddington may have been the smartest man in the room.

[pondoklabu]

Mattyj....You Sir, are a inconsiderate fool.
No matter who you are, you don't yell at 16,000 poor innocent individuals who lost their collective jobs and shout " its all your fault and not ours."
We all know ANZ employees were just as innocent, but we all know they kept their jobs. So don't blame ex Ansett employees for still feeling like they were mistreated because they were.
To all the Kiwis out there who under the mind numbing disbelief that this has something to do with AUS/NZ riverly,I don't know what to tell you, if you are that little minded you are beyond help.
This is and all ways will be about 16000 people having their lives turned upside down, just be thank full ANZ stayed afloat and you didn't have to go through it.

[Sunfish]

Pallets of expensive rotables went missing from Ansett. The treasury division of Air New Zealnad were also incompetent.

[skol]

Now that there's a bit of water gone under the bridge I can tell this story about one of my former neighbours with heaps of letters behind his name, who worked under contract at the highest echelons of Air NZ.
I was invited to have a few beers with him before he departed to MEL to what he called "empty out Ansett's head offices". (Plural)
I said "I'm only a pilot but even I know Ansett's worth f*** all".
He told me "we're going to make billions".

Which just goes to show that university degrees are worth next to nothing.

[slamer.]

The truth of this story is the whole deal on both sides of the Tasman was rotten and doomed to failure on every conceivable level. Its a shame the "rank and file" staff are left squabbiling over conjecture ....while the villians have all fled, Im sure the real story is some-what diff than how we see it

Air NZ problems started a long time before ANSETT came on the scene (around 20 years ago now) and the staff suffered under dubious owners.

Thankfully things are a lot diff now

In my opinion the Singaporeans have a lot more to answer for than history will show.

[pisstin broke]

A hypothetical question. Where would Ansett be today if Air New Zealand hadn't become involved?
And what the hell is 'Aus/NZ riverly'?

[blzbub]

My parents lost a fairly lucrative catering gig in the regions of NZ in the fallout of the ANZ/AN debacle. Tried to explain this to an ex AN capt when doing JAR ATPLs a few yrs back at Gatwick. Basically, as soon as they identified me as a K1W1, they muttered "w$#ker", and wondered off. S*%t happens, move on, 'nuff said.

p.s. For those in the know, we had the best custard squares in the world :ok:

[Skystar320]

A hypothetical question. Where would Ansett be today if Air New Zealand hadn't become involved?

Probably in Bed with Singapore Airlines, new fleet extensive international ops off the east coast to America.

[mattyj]

pondoklabu I can't beleive you are still proud of the rotten carcass that Ansett had become by the time of AirNZs arrival. It was strangled by unions, overloaded with debt, had miserable productivity, and had a ruinous number of types operated..what exactly are you so proud about..all AirNZ did was keep it struggling along for a year or so longer than it would've left to its own devices. Get a grip:ugh:

[oicur12]

Matti,

Not one of the issues you refer to was a problem particular to Ansett.

"It was strangled by unions". As is Qantas, more so than Ansett ever was. Does AirNZ have a proud history of effective labor management? I don't think so.

"had miserable productivity"

Compared to . . . . which airline? Perhaps you have some numbers you could provide.

"and had a ruinous number of types operated".

Ansett operated fewer types than many western airlines, Qantas included. BA/AA/AF some examples. Don't fall for the spin, numerous aircraft types does not break an airline.

Ansett was not perfect and was losing money when NZ took over. But to pretend that politics did not play an important part in the demise of Ansett is very naive at best.

[halas]

Air NZ fleet at the moment is quite diversified.

744, 772, 763, 733, 322 + ATR + Q300 + 1900's

Are any of these ruinous?

halas

[skol]

No, but 767's with flight engineers aren't good for financial health.

[AnQrKa]

no, not smart. But probably didnt cause the airline to go broke either.

[c100driver]

Yes but the plan is that it will be B787, B777, B737 and A320 with the exit of the B744 and B767.

The reality is that the Ansett the airline and Air New Zealand the airline, had very little to with the demise of either operation as it was the players behind the scene of both airlines that was actually playing the tune.

These players were after bigger stakes than the airline operations they controlled, so saying that Air NZ did this or Ansett did that is just cr*p.

The people who were playing the game do not post on PPrune and they live in Aussie, New Zealand and Singapore, they are business men and polies. Any one who says they know what was happening then is a bull*hitter because each player had different objectives.

[RevMan2]

This - despite its dubious origin - is an objective and good summary (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/nz-n03.shtml) of the developments in Australia and NZ at the time.

The influence of SQ cannot be underestimated. They're an extremely difficult (and unpleasant) organisation to have commercial dealings with.

And vindictive to boot

[27/09]

I think that Qantas and the Australian government as the owner of Qantas as it was a few years ago had quite a bit to do with Ansetts demise with a fair bit of help from News Corp. It was pretty much Aussies being screwed by Aussies and a bit of help from one or two people at Brierleys.

Qantas and the Aussie government blocked Air New Zealand from operating in OZ under the open skies agreement. They didn't want Air New Zealand spoiling the Qantas share float.

Air NZ found another way into OZ - a 50% share in Ansett. When the other 50% came up for sale Air NZ was a natural purchaser. Singapore Airlines would have been a better option for all concerned but News Corps milking of the system may have even made Singapore cut Ansett loose eventually.

Brierleys wanted out of Air NZ and hoped that thru Air NZ excercising their rights with Ansett they could unload their share in Air NZ onto Singapore.

I also suspect the groundings Ansett experienced were also driven by third parties perhaps Qantas, the nails that closed the coffin.

While Air New Zealand wasn't blameless there were other players who had much more input to the proceedings.

[gsf]

Mods: If any thread deserves to be made a Hamsterwheel it is this one.

[bushy]

We live in the land of the underarm bowlers.