CTMS Delays Sydney

[zube]

The last couple of days airlines have had CTMS delays into Sydney affecting their operations down line plus passengers copping delays and missing connections.

What terrible weather conditions have caused this? The ATIS quoted ILS approaches. The weather was not hugely challenging. The thing of note was that PRM approaches were not being used.

I thought the whole idea of PRM was to increase the traffic flow during ILS approach weather. Sydney ATC seems to have forgotten them. Or is it just too hard for the darlings.

Lucky they are not having industrial action in support of their dispute with their employer. Just think of the delays if THAT happened.

[To infinity & beyond]

Sydney Notam:

APP CONTROL SERVICES TO SYDNEY LTD DUE STAFF AVAILABILITY ARRIVAL DELAYS ISSUED THROUGH THE CENTRAL TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT SYSTEM (CTMS). REFER AIP ERSA FAC S-25
FROM 02 092000 TO 02 100430

[kookabat]

3 short on approach this morning.



That'll do it.

[max1]

zube,

PRM approaches have not been used for a LONG time as they simply have not had the bodies to open the position.
It will get worse before it gets better.
Don't worry though the CEO has still been getting his bonuses, and the government its dividend, as less staff means less costs to the bottom line.

Lets have a look at this. Figures are boring but they have a tale to tell.

In 2005, prior to the new CEO arriving, ASA income was $645.8m of which $58.2m was profit, $614.4 million of this was from Airways Activity i.e. what the airlines are charged in Nav charges and the provision of ARFF. 60% of this is given to the government (only shareholder) as a dividend. So ASA were charging roughly 9% more than they needed. Dividend given to the 'shareholder' around $35m, leaving around $23 million that ASA retained.
ASA charged 5.4% more to give the government a windfall. Total ASA staff costs were $402.8m.

In 2006 , new CEOs first full year, income was $683.5m, with Airways Activity at $643.4m (up 5% from 2005) and profit now $93.6m. Around $56.6 to the government and $37.4 million retained. ASA now charged 13.6% more than its break even point. It was now charging 8.1 % more than it needed to in order to give the government shareholder a $56.6 million dollar windfall.

Last financial year total income was $744m , $707.3 million was Airways Activity ( remember this is purely derived by airline flying not anything to do with ASA management ) and profit $92m, around $55 million to the government. ASA retain $37m. ASA have charged an extra 7.4% to give the government a dividend. Total ASA staff costs were $402.3m.

Qantas tips in somewhere north of $400m into ASA coffers and Virgin somewhere north of a $100m. That is about $30m from the Rat and $8m from Virgin EXTRA they are charged to give the government a dividend.

What is the ASA CEOs bonus predicated on? It obviously is not on ensuring we have enough controllers to deliver the service that our charter requires us to. Notice that staff costs are actually down $500k in his three years, given that staff get a negotiated increase each year, it is not hard to see what game the CEO has been playing, do not replace staff.
It seems to have come as a surprise to him that he now has less staff. He was told in no uncertain terms in 2005 in meetings with controllers that numbers were already low and it would get worse based on the ageing workforce and overseas opportunities. To make out that he was unaware is a blatant lie. To then 'promote' 100 operational controllers into management positions and further dilute the numbers of operational controllers beggars belief.

Remember any delays are worn by the airlines and the travelling public. ASA will still get their Airways Charges as the planes will still fly even if delayed. It is no skin off ASAs CEO nose.
Bear in mind ,and I sincerely hope it doesn't happen, if there is industrial action from controllers ASA do not lose one cent. The airlines, passengers , and airline staff are mightily inconvenienced and suffer a penalty. Controllers lose wages, under IR laws even if there is a 1 hour stopwork ,controllers will have 4 hours pay deducted (more money for ASA). ASA will still pick up their Airways Charges when flying resumes (just like after bad weather) and the controllers will be working harder to catch up just like the airlines and their staff.

Seeing that ASA is effectively a stand alone Government business it falls under the Government Bargaining Framework. This means that they will NOT backpay when an EBA is finally agreed. At the moment they have not signed a new agreement with any of their staff. With a wages bill of $402m in 2008, this is saving them millions a month , none of which can be recouped by staff. This will all add up on the bottom line.
Making who look good for a bonus?

The fact that airlines are being penalised because someone 'forgot' to make sure they had enough staff to provide the service that is ASAs reason for being is a peripheral issue. You can't be in a job for nearly four years and still be blaming the previous incumbent. Where is the Board? Where is the Minister? Dividends and bonuses are up, who cares?

"QF/DJ XXX hold in a left hand pattern, 2 minute legs, expected delay 20 minutes" " Start clearances required" " 40 minute holding required at Sydney due staff shortage". Sound familiar?

[Starts with P]

PRM has not been operated since April last year. Not enough staff. I am led to believe that phone calls aren't even being made any more.

That's why there are delays Zube.

[cattledog]

My understanding (subject to been shot down) is that airlines pay for a PRM service 24/7/365. Of course the fact that is never staffed and only opens when people are willing to give up a precious day off sounds like a dud deal to this little black duck:ugh:

[Duff Man]

ABC radio this morning reported Angry Caller from Coffs Harbour who was copping >1hr delay and told this was due to "ATC strike", yet complained this strike had not been reported by news outlets. ABC contacted ASA who gave the reason being weather delays due low cloud, reduced visibility, and thunderstorms, in combination with ongoing staffing issues.

To ASA's credit, at least the mouthpiece didn't use the awful "non-availability of staff" claptrap. Or maybe ABC was paraphrasing.

[Showa Cho]

zube said:
Sydney ATC seems to have forgotten them. Or is it just too hard for the darlings.

Where have you been for the last 18 months mate? Haven't you read the ATC staffing forum? You can't fill the position if you don't have the people. It's not too hard for us 'darlings' - you think we want to talk to you any longer than we have to?

By the way, one day my flight was delayed because the Captain was late from a connecting flight. I thought to myself - "Why can't the FO just fly it himself or has he forgotten how to fly, the little darling"

Bit unfair hey?

Give us a break mate. Help us make the staffing issue a priority for airlines too. Get in you management's ear about it. But please don't blame us 'darlings'.

When was the last time you got a roster written with gaps in it, hoping that someone would come in on their day off, and have no one rostered on standby? Never? That's what our rosters look like - there's not enough people to start with, let alone replacements for illness, emergencies etc.

Sayonara,

Showa Cho.

[blind freddy]

Zube,

good to see that you have come out of your hidey hole of ignorance and joined the debate about ATC staff shortages.
I am glad that your attention has been captured and you are contributing to the discussion.
Thank you.

Now, go and climb back in your hole.

[missy]

CTMS delays can be due to weather (low cloud, reduced visibility, strong winds), staffing or other factors so it is often difficult to know the real reason. Yesterday was weather and staffing issues which meant a reduced acceptance rate hence and increase in on-ground and airborne delays. Yesterday probably cost Australia upwards of $10m (lost productivity, increased fuel burn, etc).

[Disco Stu]

This sillyness has been dumped on the industry and passengers for 20 years now.

It beggars belief that a 3rd party (now called CTMS) can dictate the commercial arrangements between 2 other parties.

Simply because a so called service provider (AirServices) cannot handle the available or planned air traffic at, in this case Sydney, the airlines and their passengers are restricted in conducting their normal business.

Add to this the artificial non availability of 7 out of 24 hours due to a politically motivated 'curfew' and one would have to wonder whether doing business or anything else was worth the hassle of going to Sydney.

Sydney, the 1st airport to slide ingloriously back into the 3rd world.:D

[undervaluedATC]

Disco Stu: Sydney, the 1st airport to slide ingloriously back into the 3rd world.

Pretty sure there is not a single piece of airspace that AsA "adminsters" that has not been TIBA (= 3rd world situation) in the last 18 months.

Remember, our EBA only expired just over 1 month ago. The delays are due to staff shortages, as outlined by Max1 above.

[Disco Stu]

CTMS (I am aware who runs it(sic) these days) started out as a Controlled Departure Time Program, the genesis of which was through the Sydney Flow Controller in 1988. At this time I was the Operations Controller with one of the 2 major domestic airlines and had the misfortune of being sent to Sydney for the first meeting to orchestrate the CDTP. It was quite apparent that ATS could not (there was also an element of would not) handle the available or planned traffic volume, therefore the airlines were stuck with an artificially limited ability to cater for the passenger traffic that wished to travel to Sydney.

As it happened my opposite number from the other airline happened to hanger his private aircraft at the same local airfield as I did mine. A co-ordinated action plan was worked out between us so that both airlines achieved the best outcome for themselves. To this day I still remember the Syd Flow getting frustrated that we (the 2 airlines ) were happily swapping slots and achieving the flights at times we wanted despite the ATC attempts for us to do otherwise. This was a very clumsy attempt at using the airlines (and their passengers) as leverage in a staffing/pay dispute with what ever AirServices were called that particular week.


TIBA is nothing new, at that same time many sections of airspace were being de-activated and TIBA instigated as a consequence of ATC staff numbers (or lack thereof). As the airline was required by (air)law to operate in controlled airspace, this sometimes caused a few delays and re-routing of some flights. I clearly remember re-routing the last SYD-MEL flight SYD-PKS-MASDA-BH-MIA-MEL because a swag of airspace from the NSW south coast out past CBR to nearly BH was 'non-controlled" and therefore unavailable to us. But the passengers got home.

direct.no.speed, SYD have already bought a bridge:)

[sunnySA]

Stu,

Capacity at an airport is related to available bitumen (runways nand taxiways), the number of gates, runway occupancy times, wind speed and direction, the range of different aircraft types, airspace configuration, noise abatement procedures, etc.

If there is more traffic than can be safely handled or the airport is able to cope with, what do you propose?

sunny

[missy]

A co-ordinated action plan was worked out between us so that both airlines achieved the best outcome for themselves.

Sounds like collusion.

...very clumsy attempt at using the airlines (and their passengers) as leverage... Rubbish, metering the traffic is for safety and no other reason.

[an tragic]

Good post Disco, I was on the "blue side" and remember those days well of swapping slots at 0400 in the morning

[undervaluedATC]

Zube and Disco Stu maybe you should go and read through the 43 (and counting) pages in this thread to get some idea of what is happening:

http://www.pprune.org/d-g-reporting-points/336598-merged-asa-staff-shortage-42.html

[Disco Stu]

The bottom line is a service is not being delivered.

missy, not collusion. just like minded people with the same problem just happened to come up with the same solution. And, nice words about metering traffic, pity though at the time it was not relevant. Now it could be a mantra.

sunnySA, you are preaching to the wrong person about airport capacity, been there, done that and have the T shirt to prove it.

That is why I refered earlier to SYD and its status as a 3rd world facility (with apologies to the 3rd world).

an tragic, it worked too, much to the Flow's disgust. Don't forget those calls included Eenie-Weenie, Eastern, Hazo's and ANSW as well.:D

[make-mine-a-Coopers]

Ah, Disco Stu -

your grasp of reality appears to be as out of date as your taste in music...

[Frink]

Oh, great. Yet another genius who thinks that working in Airline Ops makes them an expert on air traffic control systems. :yuk:

It was quite apparent that ATS could not (there was also an element of would not) handle the available or planned traffic volume, therefore the airlines were stuck with an artificially limited ability to cater for the passenger traffic that wished to travel to Sydney.

What do you think flow control is? Mate, if you want to keep telling yourself that 10 aircraft can schedule themselves and then front up to an airport at the identical time and all land without delay, then knock yourself out. I'd just ask that you don't try and pass yourself off to others as knowledgeable when you quite clearly are not.

Frink

P.S. Ooooohhhhh. Swapping slots! Gee you really pulled the wool over their eyes there, champ. Because a flow REALLY CARES about the NAME of the aeroplane that's filling the slot. :rolleyes:

[BN APP 125.6]

Disco Stu,

Pretty sure anyone who understands ATC has said it here many times before, but just in case:

Rule 1: "It's about the Runways"

Fiddling with enroute Airspace in Australia means & does nothing to delays.

Rule 2: " ATC don't delay aircraft - other aircraft delay aircraft"

A Departure slot time is not about delaying you - it is about saving you money, because some other shiny jet wants to land just before you - and one right after you. When you are on the freeway driving your flash Volvo whi do you blame for the delays? Usually whoever built the infrastructure or lack of it. It's the same deal.

Rule 3: " WX conditions X Available Runways (X Political Runway Configuration) (X ATC Staffing!) = Runway Acceptance Rate.

Runway Demand less Runway Acceptance Rate = delay (plus unplanned or unplannable events: pilot initiated missed approaches due non-wx related issues / MED1 EMERG / Aircraft returning to land EMERG / Insert Here)

A 2 minute slot that is not avail is not a 2 minute delay for one aircraft - it is a cumulative 2 min delay until excess capacity exists again.

It's simple really.

Solution = more runways (stop closing airports Government! Councils!)

Solution to Delays Does NOT = Lobbying, Cutting ATC Numbers, New Whizbang Enroute Software tools, Flex Tracks, ADS-Bblah blah blah.

Ask anyone in the USA - they will tell you the same.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey 125.6,

Re - "Ask anyone in the USA - they will tell you the same."

We don't have to go as far as that!! We have our very own 'resident' US Rep.
right here.......:}

(Although he has been sort of 'quiet' of late....)

Slight 'drift' I know, but tongue in cheek for a little 'lightening up'.....

Cheers:ok:

[Howabout]

Hi Griffo,

I always thought that Stu was one of the brighter posters here. I'm just putting it down to a brain-fart. We've all had them.

As for your "US rep" comment, it's a bit early in the day to be on the red!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day Mr 'H',..
.
.
.

er,

I
du
nno
bout
th
at...........

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Put all prop traffic on 16L/34R and leave the big bit of bitumen for jets, surely that'd help sort out some of the issues.

So many times I've seen anything up to a dozen jets waiting for a Dash8 to arrive on 16R battling into a 25kt southerly. Then they'll get one away before a SAAB rolls in, sloooowly. This slows down everyone arriving behind them and holds up everyone awaiting departure.

I've seen how fast you guys and girls in the Dash's taxi, it's the only time you'll ever get away from us! It'd wouldn't take toooo long to get to 34R.

Match the speeds, it's gotta help.

And no, I'm certainly not having a go at prop-drivers, just trying to use some common sense to sort out the problem. A dangerous tactic in this industry I know. :hmm:

[BN APP 125.6]

Simple idea. But both runways are needed for the amount jet movements so it doesn't matter where they are.

Besides in reality - there is bugger all diff between the speeds within 10 miles of the runway, or times within 20 miles - if flown properly - in VMC.

If you could dump LTOP/Noise Sharing/Movement Caps overnight, efficiency would go through the roof. None of that is to do with ATC - it is to do with politics.

[Stubby]

Between CTMS delays, no PRMS(SY) and that rediculous noise abatement (SY):mad:, SY, Ml and even Bn are becoming more and more painfull by the day:ugh::ugh: Why should Airlines cop this rubbish its hard enough as it is to make a buck in this insane industry.
Where all sick of the abuse we and mainly our cabin crew cop from the PAYING pax.
Industrial action in the future for ATC?? who knows, but I would think the vast majority of Pilots and Airline management would probably quitely support it despite the increased inconvenience it would cause.
Good luck ATC I would like to think the majority of Pilots respect your job and the pressure your constantly under, where all just a bit sick of been stuffed around all the time;)