Near Miss at Mumbai Airport

[rvv500]

An Airbus 321 of Air India escaped a collission with a helicopter which landed on the runway as the plane was on the take off roll. Quick thinking by an alert Captain avoided a major tragedy. It seems that the ATC :mad: up, permitting the Airbus to take off and the helo to land, at the same time.

Good job by the pilot. He saved a lot of lives.


Major mishap averted at Mumbai airport-Mumbai-Cities-The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Mishap_averted_at_Mumbai_airport/articleshow/4097691.cms)

[Dysag]

"Meanwhile, an official spokesperson of the President said that "Everything is perfectly fine. The President was attending her normal functions."

So i'm alright, Jack/ie

[criss]

Pilot of Airbus-321 Captain S S Kohli wondered how the chopper landed when he had been given a clearance by the ATC to take off. "The chopper just landed without taking a landing clearance. I cannot say much more," he said.

An IAF spokesman said in New Delhi, "the pilots of the chopper had followed the instructions from Bombay approach meticulously. The Presidential entourage was cleared to take off from INS Kunjali and land at Santa Cruz between two taxiways".

Why would you say then it's ATC fault.

[JWP1938]

Quote
They said the Air Traffic Control had given clearance for the helicopter to land but simultaneously gave take off permission to the Air India flight.
Unquote
and
Quote
Mumbai international aiport authorities did not comment on the incident, saying that, "this is purely an issue concerning the Mumbai Air Traffic Control, which had allowed both the landing and the take off."
Unquote

Thats why.

[Lembrado]

criss,

Have you operated into BOM? if you had, I suspect you would not have asked the question.

The ATC service into Mumbai is interesting to say the least. Definately the sort of place where one needs to be on ones toes - especially arriving after a night flight.

l.

[Al Fakhem]

And why are choppers still operating in and out of VABB anyway? Isn't Juhu supposed to be the heli airport?

[rvv500]

Also don't understand why the helo lands on a runway. There's ample space in Mumbai Airport to land elsewhere.

[ATC Watcher]

Passing judgement and apportioning blame based on what journalist report in their newspapers is not a very good advice, especially in India.

Rvv400 : there are may reasons why a Heli would land (approach would be more correct ) on a runway instead of " anywhere" in an airport, what was the visi that day would be a good one.

[aviatcoin]

in idii, hellos are supposed to land on runways only, as per the directives

[Sky Dancer]

Good job Capt.Kohli:ok::ok:.......and yes never go by what the Indian press tells you , an average reporter doesn't even know the difference between a B 737 and an A 320:ok: ..

[alouette3]

I agree. Lots of factual errors in the report.
AlFakhem, the helicopter with the President was probably landing at BOM for her to board the Air Force plane taking her to Gujarat.
I thought the airspace is closed during VIP operations in and out of an airfield.
Alt3.

[Al Fakhem]

agent 123: get ready for a büllocking from the likes of rahulred5 :rolleyes:

[rvv500]

In the Northeast when an Air India B 737 and a IAF fighter plane were on collision course at 16,000 feet and both had to take evasive action. ATC muck up again.

Near-miss again: IAF plane gets too close to AI jet-India-The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Near-miss_again_IAF_plane_gets_too_close_to_AI_jet/articleshow/4109731.cms)

[Schumi - Red Baron]

Why am i not surprised!!!
I think that now DGCA should do something about the safety in india....
Although i have heard that the JORHAT airspace is under Air force control and the ATC was also an air-force officer....

But still india should shed it's bureaucracy and work practically.

The Hindu : Magazine / Issues : Indian aviation’s clouded vision (http://www.hindu.com/mag/2009/02/01/stories/2009020150220700.htm)

[Schumi - Red Baron]

Do indian political leaders/DGCA/AAI care about safety or it's all about money for them.:(


ICAO told India in an audit 18 months ago that it was below world averages on primary aviation legislation, safety oversight of airlines and the qualifications and training of its technical personnel.
India responded with initial legislation to expand the powers of the country’s aviation regulatory authority — the office of the Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA). But a review of the ICAO’s findings by Aviation Week & Space Technology observes that many issues raised by the audit, which was conducted in October 2006 and delivered last July, have gone unanswered. Chances of significant action in the near future are unlikely because political leaders are focused on elections less than a year away.


For the full story try the link below

ICAO India Audit Faults Safety, Training | AVIATION WEEK (http://www.aviationow.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=aviationdaily&id=news/ICAO04148.xml&headline=ICAO%20India%20Audit%20Faults%20Safety,%20Training)

[alouette3]

rvv500

Before we rush to judgement about the ATC guy in this case, let us remember that there is a strong possibility of pilot error. The IL76 is Russian aircraft and is instrumented in the metric system. Which means that their altimeters are in meters and ASIs in KM. The pilots have to use conversion charts to figure out flight levels. In fact, if memory serves me right, this was the underlying cause of the IL76 (belonging to an ex Soviet Republic country) and the Saudia 747 collision near Delhi in the late nineties.

Just food for thought.

Alt3.

[VT-ASM]

The Juhu Aerodrome has generally been the place for helos to land in Mumbai.
Ever since a collision over Juhu airport between two helos trying to land at sunset, The great Indian DGCA :} decreed that they have to land at Mumbai airport after sunset.

Nevertheless, This was a high security flight with the Indian prez on board, So Mumbai airport was the imperative choice for the IAF helos to land...


Regards,

ASM

[VT-ASM]

With regards to the B747 and IL 76 collision over Delhi,

The Great circus called the DGCA was quick enough to put the blame on the Kazakh crew citing confusion over units...
The pilots are dead.....Every aviation agency would do its part to steer itself clear of controversy..
With the growing instances of near misses, I wonder whether the Kazakh crew was at fault at all ?
With the severe shortage of trained ATCO's the skies over India have definitely become dangerous....

[alouette3]

VT-ASM:
Don't disagree with you about the DGCA. However, in the Charkhi Dadri collision, I do believe it was established that there was a confusion in the Kazakh flight deck over the units.And not just by the DGCA.
After all, even Russian aircraft, running on steam guages and coal do have CVRs and FDRs--------.

All I am saying is that as acommunity pilots tend to defend our own. That is a good trait. However, every once in a while we must acknowledge that some of us are human and can screw up.
Alt3

[av8r76]

Pilots screw up.... yes. But I believe that almost every accident/incident doesn't necessarily have a smoking gun.

A lot of mishaps are a result of a long line events which culminate to a situation where lives are lost or close to it.

Lack of infrastructure, inefficient/contradictory procedures (maintenance and operational), fatigue, crm, training... the list goes on.... these are all factors contributory to all the stats we dread.

In aviation, the Swiss cheese theory has great ramifications and we can all be victim to it without ever having a clue. Luck, unfortunately, does play a big role in our industry.

Thankfully, the holes didn't line up in this case.... if the vis was bad, no W, a fault with the braking system of the IC a/c..... again, the list goes on.

As far as Bombay is concerned, someone screwed up in a humongous fashion. But I would question why it happened rather than what happened. And instead of nailing the poor sods to the cross, maybe corrective training, or just a complete revamp of the training progress or the outlook towards how traffic is handled in India needs to be looked at.

Human error is inevitable. It is our collective job to find a way to minimize it and establish enough checks and balances to leverage the mitigating factors which result in disasters.

[malq]

This one from the bug sheet, courtesy supy rookie "pilot" riding shotgun in the cockpit:-

cleared for take off rwy 27
n1 stablised at 47% thn lever to MCT
100knt callout but both capt nd copilot 'anant dewan
same moment a chopper appeared from above the air india hanger and started to move in turning towards rwy27 slowly facing it back towards ic866.... same moment thrust was brought to idle nd reversers deployed (rev are deployed whn auto brake at max ad thrust at idle ..not at rev thrust...)) aborted at 126 knots....capt kohli did tried turning ac to a bit on the left and luckily there was ''w'' da rapidexitway...when both the chopper and 866 came to half da diference was arond 25-30 feet....not 300 meters as mentined in da newspapers...but guess that was done due to security measures...at full stop the ac was half on runway and half on the beginning of the taxiway...the call sign was PPF parked at bay 18 with alternate AAH ... tow: 76.5 T (reading it out straight from the buck card xerox as original was attached to the FSR (flight safety record form.....)

vi being 149....vR being 151 and V2 as 154knots...wnds were 230/03 knots....were to follow ANOLI1A departure with DOTIP transition....

[aviatcoin]

beg to differ with you brother agent123, heard in india (other than bom and del) the radars fails umpteen times and the coverage is just like a mirage 'cause of siting probs, hence the extra margin for safety in case of failure yet to take place, necessitates larger separations. the hands are always tied to the back:cool:

[alouette3]

Exactly my sentiments. Thank you Aviatcoin.
The controllers in India are no less competent or more than anyone else in the world. They have just been dealt a ****ty hand and are playing the best they can. Remember, without adequate radar coverage,the controlling is all procedural.In this day and age, with secondary radar , computer and communications technology, it is unfair for the controllers in India to be expected to play three dimensional chess in their heads. If they are doing that, every once in a while, defecation will happen.
Alt3.

[VT-ASM]

@ alouette 3

Beg to differ on your statement dude i.e.
There has always been a misconception about Russian aircrat being technically inferior to western ones, in the aspect of aerodynamics, avionics and so on. Even Russian pilots are not spared when they get involved in an accident in international airspace.
There was a midair collision a while back between a DHL 757 and a Russian TU154 M over Germany. The airspace was controlled by swiss skyguide. They were quick to pass on the blame on the Russian pilots, But further investigation revealed otherwise......
The skyguide controller was at fault.
I am not trying to say that the Indians were at fault for the colllision over Charkhi-Dadri, But still that remains a strong possibility given the rise in numbers of close shaves these days....
Only now the planes are back on terra firma in one piece and there are pilots who live to tell the tale.
Blaming the dead pilots have always been the easiest thing to do for airlines and aviation agencies to push the blame ball out of their court.
The 1990 Indian airlines crash was blamed on the poor pilots...case closed.
It was found that the A320 did have an error in the altitude mode selector, as evident from the Air Inter crash and the Mulhouse crash.

All we need is a competent authority like the FAA and the NTSB.
And for God's sake we need to let go of that 'chalta hai' attitude, and I think we shall have safe skies once again.

Cheers,

VT-ASM

[Schumi - Red Baron]

@VT-ASM


There was a midair collision a while back between a DHL 757 and a Russian TU154 M over Germany. The airspace was controlled by swiss skyguide. They were quick to pass on the blame on the Russian pilots, But further investigation revealed otherwise......
The skyguide controller was at fault.



Mate it wasn't controllers fault...It was sky guides managment fault.....They were to carry out maintainence but they got everything wrong. They didn't had enough controllers that night (or any night)....The controller didn't had his instruments like phone,Radar emergency warning, computer were working slow by approx. 40 seconds all due to maintainence and they didn't had any backup......

[Al Fakhem]

They were to carry out maintainence but they got everything wrong. They didn't had enough controllers that night (or any night)....The controller didn't had his instruments like phone,Radar emergency warning, computer were working slow by approx. 40 seconds all due to maintainence and they didn't had any backup......

sounds like a veritable third-world country setup

[Blacksteel7]

"veritable third-world country"
You are wrong! This is "incridible !ndia" :}

[lastdon]

BS7,

He is talking about the controller who was involved in the DHL crash. Care to elaborate what Incredible India got to do with it? :hmm:

[leftseatview]

The TU154 crew followed the late ATC instructions,even though the RA was telling them to do just the opposite.(so who is to blame for that?)
In all air accidents,no matter who triggers the chain of errors,its always upto the pilots to prevent the last hole in the swiss cheese from lining up.
And now they have technology to help them, in the shape of "flt envelope protection" ,TCAS,and EGPWS.
The job profile requires individuals whose "Thinking" and technical understanding is sound, and who are able to focus,and clearly and quickly prioritise tasks.
Most people given proper training/adequate experience(preferably on type)are upto the demands of the job.
However,like in any line of work a certain small percentage(which varies according to airline/work culture)are just not upto the task,and in an ideal situation should be "retrained"(or put on some other job if beyond retraining.)
In the Charkhi Dadri case the collision actually occured when the IL76 crew tried to climb back to the level cleared,having already busted it and "safely" descended below the reciprocal Saudia 747s level.
As a sad postscript the Swiss skyguide contoller was killed by the father of one of the children who died in the TU154.

[vinayak]

@bs7: guess you just didn't read it from the top :)

It is still surprising to see people freeze when they get a RA. Saw my skipper do that once,(freeze), when we were entering Dhaka Airspace where everything's done "in co-ordination" with the other control.

[Blacksteel7]

Sorry, but where is Mumbai Airport? :eek:

[Capt Apache]

In Mumbai.

[vinayak]

@bs7, lastdon said that for your comment to the DHL/Russian Aircraft mid air crash. That did not happen over India and took place when under Swiss ATC.

[tiger king]

Mumbai ATC needs a major overhaul.

Capt SS Kohli did a great job by avoiding
a disaster! Well done

[Jet Cockpit]

It would be correct to say that Sky Guides operations triggered the initial collision course of the two aircraft( Time Lag on the screens, Inoperative equipment due to maintenance leading to unsuccessful internal communications).
Commenting on the Tupolev crew: It was a training flight with the senior training captain in the jumpseat. The Tupolev's TCAS picked up the collision course well before the 757"s. At the same time Skyguide instructed the two a/c different FLs.
Being a bit late(obviously due to the time lag), both the TCAS's warnings on the a/c were getting serious. The TCAS warnings on both the aircraft didn't correspond to Skyguide instructions. Russian training being quite orthodox and different from the rest of the world, the training captain of the TU ordered the captain to comply with Skyguide whereas the First Officer urged his Captain to obey TCAS controls. The Captain decided to obey his Training captain.
The 757 crew complied with TCAS..
Guess what?....
My personal belief and conclusion: The main cause here is CREW RESOURCE MANAGEMENT. Fair enough a flawless and fully functional radar control system wouldn't have led to the accident. But a global standardization of cockpit ethics would have saved the lives of various.
You think controlling in India is poor.. Try Africa!!!
Sorry to deviate from the post..Just wanted to clear things up..
Big up to Capt. Kohli.
Safe Flying to ev1.

[Schumi - Red Baron]

I think that the ICAO was at fault in that incident.....At that time there was no ruling that whom should pilot obey - TCAS or The controller.....Such incident happened in japan just weeks before this incident. ICAO didn't do anything about it... They just sat and were waiting untill there's a crash....

Russian obeyed the controller.....There would be many pilots who would hav opted for that given the circumstances.....

And mate how many airlines in africa are certified by FAA or JAA....Only one airline by FAA....Thats a continent which is politically unstable. No rules and regulations......Thabo Mbeki, Robert Mugabe......African continent is ruined...it's going into pieces....Even UN agrees to that....The literacy rate is well below any other continent.....The life expectancy is just 21....So how can u compare india with that nation....Or it just tells our situation that thats what we can compare to......Thats what our own level is.....

http://www.icao.int/isd/avsecafrica/AVSEC_Africa_Report.pdf

Africa Renewal, United Nations key reports on Africa (http://www.un.org/ecosocdev/geninfo/afrec/sgreport/keyreps.htm)

[leftseatview]

If the crew has a sound understanding of the system,(and keep themselves informed,about potential threats)they need not wiat for ICAO or anyone else to put pen to paper.
That is the reason we still have people sitting at the sharp end of airplanes.
CRM calls for the use of all available resources(that includes expensive fancy gadgets like TCAS,even if specifically not mentioned in any ICAO/Company procedure)
When ICAO and everyone else gets their act togather(and figure out a solution for every scenerio)they will replace the pilots with software.
And since they are unlikely to get up to speed anytime very soon,pilots will be around for a while yet.
Especially the ones who dont wait to see everything on the correct bit of paper,when the situation calls for it.

[Schumi - Red Baron]

'It's been proved time and again that no matter what the technology at your command, the man in the machine is paramount......

Well i think that pilots are forever....

No one can replace a human skills....Not even software, no matter how good or accurate they are.....

[Al Fakhem]

Back to Bombay ATC: flew out today and we had about 25 minutes hold at 27-09, but no movement at all on the intersecting RWY. Any idea why the second RWY is not in use?

[Jet Cockpit]

Hi there Leftsideview (student or captain?) No offense man but I strongly disagree on claiming TCAS as an expensive gadget. I think its a complete ridiculous statement considering worldwide airspaces are now RVSM active. It is in fact a mandatory ICAO requirement for aircrafts flying at those FLs.

I agree with Schumi - Red Baron. A320 tests in the 90's have proved it in the best fashion. Plus its not up to ICAO to decide on who or how many crew fly the aircraft. In fact there is a minimum crew number stated for legal operation. Check conventional Russian carriers (nothing against them) flying with 4-6 crews.

[captaan]

left seat view is a flying school bud.
he does not know RVSM.
may be f/o or just school kid.
when you go on your next tripp on RVSM try to fly manually
i am sure you are TRE.

try it out

good luck

[123567]

Back to Bombay ATC: flew out today and we had about 25 minutes hold at 27-09, but no movement at all on the intersecting RWY. Any idea why the second RWY is not in use?

There is a min Vis requirement for cross runway ops.

[vinayak]

you know even if the viz is great they stop using it after 0900IST. I really wonder why...

[Schumi - Red Baron]

Airport Authority of India on Tuesday de-rostered two Air Traffic Control officers—a tower controller and a radar controller—for lapses that led to Monday’s incident.

Joint director of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation A K Chopra has begun a probe to detect what went wrong.

AAI officials had said the IAF chopper had landed at the airport without taking clearance and that had resulted in a collision-like situation since the airbus was taking off the same time.


But the real problem was something else.....

Mumbai Mirror - Near miss at airport highlights need for helipad , News - City,Mumbai Mirror (http://www.mumbaimirror.com/index.aspx?page=article&sectid=2&contentid=2009021120090211021034334ca319e68)

[Schumi - Red Baron]

ICAO India Audit Faults Safety, Training | AVIATION WEEK (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=aviationdaily&id=news/ICAO04148.xml)

[Al Fakhem]

123567: visibility had nothing to do with the backlog - we could see the end of the runway and beyond, so around 5,000 metres

[Sky Dancer]

the minimum viz for cross rwy ops is 2600 m ( I think ) and there is a NOTAM on work happening through the night on RWY 14..check it out...unsure myself :ok:

[saperaa]

123567: visibility had nothing to do with the backlog - we could see the end of the runway and beyond, so around 5,000 metres


some other pilot might have seen some bird on take off path, then it can cause delay for all departures and arrivals.
or there may be some other issue like that.

[vinayak]

night? well they close it after 0900 ist in the morning:suspect:

[Schumi - Red Baron]

Mumbai airport rings alarm bells. According to airport sources, there have been three incidents of bird-hits in January. December 2008 saw as many as nine such incidents; August and October recorded seven bird-hits each. Feburary has already seen 7 incidents of bird strike.

Still mumbai airport is safere than delhi airport.

Most birds hit at Delhi airport-Delhi-Cities-The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Delhi/Most_birds_hit_at_Delhi_airport/articleshow/4157439.cms)

[Al Fakhem]

Good analysis of the recent "near miss" at

The Hindu : Magazine / Issues : Indian air farce (http://www.hindu.com/mag/2009/02/22/stories/2009022250230700.htm)

[alouette3]

Good article indeed. It does put the IAF helicopter guys in a poor light. Procedural errors and transponders notwithstanding, how did the airspace remain open when the President was flying in? Normally airspace around an airport is closed to inbound and outbound civil trafficduring VVIP/VIP movements.
That,IMHO, is the more important question.

Alt3

[Schumi - Red Baron]

Very good analysis.....Very true...It's good to see that someone has enough guts to speak the truth (publicly) in india (against DGCA and Air F'A'RCE).....

[shahabpk]

Pilot was a hero for one day only , seconf day onwards the ATCO on duty got the credit..