EK Overtime

[fo4ever]

Here we go:

Overtime now 92hrs/31days........

Get ready 4 more

[fatbus]

where did you read that

thanks

[hotcurry]

Check your company mail.

It’s pretty obvious that as of our April rosters we'll be rostered up around the 90 hour mark.


I think I'm getting flu'ish, hmmm :ugh:

[Craic Ore]

Nothing in my inbox. Anyone else?

[hairspray]

Nothing in mine either...

[fatbus]

just checked and not there

[616200]

Not a damn thing in my box..

[Payscale]

Nada.... yet

[linedriva]

I got my letter today, but although I'm not happy, I don't think this forum is the one to vent on.

But, what would I know, I'm just a linedriva

[145qrh]

Guess it must be in our mailboxes.

Funny thing is was saying to f/o this very morning, sorry middle of the night, that I would not be at all surprised if overtime was scrapped all together when it came round to pay-rise time !! and lo and behold they beat me to it.

Another Najm on its way to flight ops management(:}).

Too tired to work the calculator, but guessing 15-20% pay cut based on 90hr month.:yuk:

[fo4ever]

Its in your company FC box.

Nice little golden letter.

[oz in dxb]

For the guys that already have the golden letter, when does this new overtime rule come in?
I have an 84 hour this month!

Regards,

Oz

[Oblaaspop]

Indeed.......

And before anyone says "But I hardly do any overtime anyway, so it wont really make any difference" (ie Boeing guys), we WILL be working much harder later in the year!

We are still getting 19 A/C over the next 14 months, but are not recruiting enough pilots to cover the deliveries with present productivity levels, so..... The current pilots will just have to work more hours and be more productive (10-20% more), for essentially less money. Simple....... AAR can give himself a big pat on the back for this one!

More productivity from the existing workforce, means less new pilots required, which means fewer Villa's/education allowance/prov fund/crew transport/ALT's etc etc to pay for.

I also fear this is just the start of a very long and horrid road of opportunistic screwing over from the company!:(

[Saltaire]

Unbelievable, this is where some type of governing body or association would help. An absoulute axe of conditions and work incentive.

There might be a freeze on hiring, but I have a feeling they'll need more doctors.

[schismatic]

Didn't get the letter. Can someone give a brief on the contents?

[woodja51]

yes is the thin edge of the wedge...I couldnt follow the logic as when they introduced productivity ( 96) it was around 82 hours, then ( as we got more longer routes etc) it went down to the current figures ( if you all remember the sales pitch on that one?) and now they are saying that more long haul means it has to move the other way?? Seems a back flip to me.

The thing is that they should be moving productivity down not up to get the desired effect. If we were all rostered properly for say 75 hours +/-10 per month x 10 months of avail time that would get them the 750 they are after each, and if productivity kicked in at say 60 or so then we would always be in productivity and as such the 'greed is good' would kick in and there would be less sickness, ,more motivation to do extra time ( used to be called grey days once in another life) , consequently reduce reserve coverage etc.

But no... they didn't see things this way and have gone the other direction... the result is likely to have exactly the opposite effect on what they are trying to achieve.

If the managers used some modern leadership notions - such as adaptive concepts - where those with the problem come up with the solutions then all things could be put on the table and negotiated to arrive at a win - win scenario.

But I digress - there has never been any leadership shown in this Company - very good mangers when it comes to budgets, rules, targets etc but those techniques fail to work when the problem is as undefined as the current climate might suggest.

I wonder how come companies like Southwest manage to operate with 80 employees per jet but we need 150 .. maybe there is around 70/jet unneccesary dead wood in the system and we should do something about that ...not to mention the fact that a country the size of the US has one president and one VP and we have ... hundreds!!

but I forget .. EK is not about efficiency it is about providing employment for a bunch of folks from a sheltered workshop..

If it was about efficiency there are several other major initiatives they could use to increase crew utilisation - like remote rosters, job share, basings etc etc but these are not even considered as the political fall out is too great.

So, sorry AS, give me a break with the logic of long haul requiring higher productivity thresholds... it will work in exact reverse.. but I know you are just the messenger..this comes from much further up the line..... and we know who that is.. and all this after such a nice letter about the latest fog event etc... so much for motivated, keen and engaged workforce.!:ugh:

[ruserious]

Well by reckoning the increase from 78 to 92 hours in 31 days is a 15.2% increase. While you can argue that it is not a 15% pay cut :} the reality is that along with the reduced days off the new target for rostering will be 92 hours.
So as well as getting less pay, days off, less chances to do a swap, your fatigue levels are about to go through the roof.
What really frustrates me is how AS, ED and AAH trot out this juvenile simplistic spin on everything, mixed in with a large dose bit of blame shifting.
I mean trying to say that this will save jobs, when they plan to recruit 170 pilots next year is a bit rich to say the least.
So message to our dear management, please stop treating us like IDIOTS, we are quite used to BOHICA, just don't try and convince us that it is something else with your puerile spin

[5star]

The only sarcastic quote I miss in the letter :

"With the introduction of a higher cutoff point for productivity pay we will have to insert less ADs in your rosters...."

Well there is one bright side to this. I'll have to spend less time in this cr*p hole called Dubai.:yuk:

Shared pain my a** Mr ED.

[ironbutt57]

Just curious what do they pay for overtime over there..thanks

[sheiken around]

hmmm....well, for those of us who have been here for a year and are still in temporary housing - 2 bedroom apartments with wives and children - this is just another example of EK not honouring the contract that we signed. It'll take only 1 overseas lawsuit to fix this for everyone else - stay tuned !!!!

[linedriva]

ironbutt57, as of this letter - ZERO!

[mini cooper]

I'm high on yearly hours anyway, so increaasing the monthly hours should mean i will get maxed out shortly - then more time off?

[Kamelchaser]

I'd like to ask any of our collegues who answered their phones last week during the latest fog debacle to perhaps justify why they went to work..given that a few days earlier the comany had shafted you with this 5/12 rule.

And then, to add insult to injury, this change in productivity rule.

You missed a once or twice in a year opportunity to tell the company exactly what we all think of the draconian, unilateral T&C changes.

Still, I guess a couple of thousand dirhams in your back pocket while the company screws everything you came here for is justified?

[Kamelchaser]

No mini cooper..just more ADs that you won't be able to fly during.

[schismatic]

78 x 10.5 months = 820
92 x 10.5 months = 966

Naturally the line pilot will be capped when he hits 900 and cannot do much else. Therefore he can only really do an average of 86 hours per month.

For office duties, training captains and the like, its another story.
E.g. For those guys, they could quite happily reach 966 hours without any overtime kicking in. Essentially another roster month for free. Ouch!

[disconnected]

When does this become effective?

[sandflake]

M C and everyone else. You likely wont "max out". Don't forget factoring. What your log book says and what EK considers will likely/certianly be 2 different things. Also don't forget AS's policy of..you can go over 900 hours during the month just as long as your below 900 by the end. Then there are the AD days. Also the practice of rostering sim support for anyone nearing the 900 hour mark. Any thing else i'm missing?

We've worked hard before/always, but, we got call out pay-GONE, overtime-GONE. A lot of these policies came up in 05/06 (or was it 04/05). U guys who haven't been here that long probably are wondering what I'm talking about but Emirates has used all these practices to operate short of pilots. Difference is now you wont make the same amount of cash for doing more work. I believe at the worst it ever got they only cancelled 6 flights one day due to pilot shortage. (and back then we we're REALLY short. I'd say the pilots here have always stepped up to the plate{or wicket,depending on where your from} at least then you got paid for it)The contract you signed, if like me, is rather vauge. The FOM incorporates your work rules, however, I never signed the FOM. If you can take on Emirates for contract violations, more power to you.

Right now it's the old "you should be thankful to have a job" mantality. What happens when/if this thing turns, who konws?...hope it's good for us. Waiting to hear from the guys who are "dusting off their cv". Let me know whats out there...

[MR8]

Gentlemen,

Your reactions are pretty lame, your calculations are way off and the situation is a LOT worse than what it looks like...

First of all, ruserious, this is a 17.95% increase in productivity before overtime kicks in, not 15.2%.

Secondly, don't get confused about the 900hr rule. According to the FCI all the augmenting hours only count for the actual stick time. This is actually implemented in the 'new' OM-A Section 7, p 29, last alinea:

Flying hours credited to augmenting crew for the purpose of calculating the absolute limits on flying hours (for both 100hours in 28 days and the 900 hours for any consecutive 12 month period) will be based on the actual time in an operating seat, as recorded by the Voyage Report

So, all your augmenting time basically only counts for 50% for 4 pilot crew or 66% for 3 pilot crew. With all the ULR's we're doing you can EASILY fly the maximum of 92 hours and be below the yearly limits.

Also, no hiding behind 'I have a JAA/FAA/... license with a limit of...'. You are operating UAE registered aircraft on a UAE license, so these rules DO apply.

This also falls in line with Ed's letter on the 1st of Feb where he writes:

....
The significant changes are:

Unless required for training, each set of crew on a ULR flight will operate one sector and augment the other sector. This is unlike the existing practice of one set operating and other set augmenting throughout the entire trip.

ACTS will reflect estimated stick time on all augmented trips. This was required for the system to calculate correct monthly/yearly block hours limitation exceedances.

This means that for every ULR trip, you will roughly only achieve 75% of the hours actually flown towards your limits. 100% of one leg and only 50% for the return leg, or vice versa.

Bottom line: Flight Ops has been playing us all along. They had this idea up their sleeves since a few months when they announced less recruitment for 2009. All small deteriorations in our conditions fall in line with this ultimate new rule that will change our conditions as never before...

Now we only have to wait for the zero bonus and zero payrise without even the contractual 3%....

MR8

More to come...

[sandflake]

what MR8 said plus i know what i forgot. Standby ulr. a reserve day counts for 3.5 credit hours (for bidding purposes). CRS can't cope with sulr so they just increased the time off requirment before a ulr by 24 hrs then add the standby day after the roster is generated. You don't get paid for it and you don't get any credit hours for it. What a deal!

[ruserious]

First of all, ruserious, this is a 17.95% increase in productivity before overtime kicks in, not 15.2%.
Yep, just shows I should leave calculators to the bean counters :ugh:

[MR8]

Just ran some numbers to compare financial loss in case of 92hr rosters...

I got the basic salary from the emiratesgroupcareers website, and one thing struck me.. Although they still mention the approximately 78hr limit per month, they also talk about hourly pay of 45/60 for FO/Capt where it is 35/45 in our FOM. Also overtime on the website is mentioned as 375/525 compared to the 325/460 in the FOM. So either an increase is in the pipeline, was in the pipeline bus has been scrapped, or they are just lying to new candidates.

Anyway, using the numbers from the FOM for a new FO or newly promoted Captain:

FO old: 22720 basic + 78x35 flightpay + 14x325 overtime = 30000 Dhs
FO new: 22720 basic + 92x35 flightpay = 25940 Dhs

- 13.5 %


Capt old: 32430 basic + 78x45 flightpay + 14x460 overtime = 42380 Dhs
Capt new: 32430 basic + 92x45 flightpay = 36570 Dhs

-13.7 %


So basically for us this means that:

If you were never working overtime before, the company can roster you 17.95% more time without paying extra (apart from the minimal flight pay)

If you were working overtime, you will still continue to do so, but the company will pay you about 13.5% less for this

Or any combination of the 2 above...


These are our losses, roughly. Now what's in it for the company??

A 17.95 increase in productivity means basically that they will not need every 7th pilot. 6 pilots will now do the work for the same price as 7 pilots did before.

This also means:

No basic salary for the 7th pilot
No housing for the 7th pilot
No DEWA for the 7th pilot
No medical for the 7th pilot and family
No schooling for the 7th pilot's kids
No end of service benefit for the 7th pilot
...

This seems a bit in contrast with the message Mr. ED sent us about saving our peers jobs by taking the AD's (which I didn't understand in the first place)


Extra consequences for new joiners and FO's: For every 7 Captains now, EK will (roughly) only need 6 in the future. That means that for the same amount of work, EK needs about 85 skippers less on the B777 and about 60 less on the Bus. I might be extremely negative on this dark day, but I wonder about the (lack of) upgrades in the coming year(s)...

Sorry for ranting, but these were just a few thoughts that crossed my mind.. as I said, the implications of this 'adjustment' are far worse than most of us think...

MR8

PS: I would like to run a similar comparison with TCAS's first productivity raise, the one in 2005 where we suddenly weren't credited anymore for leave, reserve etc.. Does anyone still have an old copy of the FOM with the details??

[allaru]

Perhaps the management, could enlighten us as to what they have taken in the way of pay cuts given the present financial situation.

Measures taken to save jobs..... and yet we are still recruiting...you must really think we are stupid.

EK MISS-MANAGEMENT .. YOU ARE GOING TO CAUSE A HULL LOSS IF YOU CONTINUE WITH THIS VINDICTIVE AND CHILD LIKE STYLE OF MANAGEMENT.

THERE IS NO ROOM FOR CHILDREN IN MISSION CRITICAL ENVIRONMENTS SUCH AS AVIATION.

Given Dubai's present financial situation (in deep S%$t) EK should be adopting far more careful and conservative measures to weather the present storm. It should be steady as she goes for the next few months. Instead they are going to run their pilots FURTHER into the ground by increasing their hours.


Out of interest assumming 96 hour month with 30hours of night flying, assuming 2000hrs on type which most ek fo-capt upgrades would have. Im working on overtime kicking in at 96 as I havn't seen the letter yet

Air arabia 43930dhs narrow body low cost airline, the sort of thing I was doing 15 years ago.


EK 36750 for flying a wide body, including the A380. The differences would actually be greater since on average we probably do more than 30 hours night flying a month.

[Thylakoid]

All these new weekly measures reveal that they are becoming desperate. The three hitmen (AS/AAR/ED) are probably suffering a lot of pressure from the "Capo di tutti i capi" to come up with constant cost cutting ideas.

All I can say is that this is the worst ever recession for EK, and it hit right when we are also seeing the worst ever management team up there.

A bunch of amateurs.

:E

[fo4ever]

Here is my cost cut:

"Company phone" - OFF

Until it is in-line with our employment manual.

[Ketek400]

KY Jelly.......

[fly737]

My wife is using it for 2 years now already.....

[pool]

Brilliant! Another ejaculo praecox from our "leaders".
Why not use the carrot? Increase productivity by a small margin and plan the guys just slightly above it. As a lot of our collegues seem to be as greedy as the company (working every requested minute on their day off), the same guys would think twice pressing 2 and losing around 1500 dire hams. Now if you plan them consitently higher, but below new productivity increase, the pressing costs only a mere 3 to 600 dire hams (for crap subcontinental TAs) and will definitely increase. Cost neutral?? No, simply stupid.
On the other hand we get letters from AS (i am constantly resisting to add the second "s"), ED (the horse definitely only moves its lips, dubbed by his masters voice) and the new venue to the clown outfit M&M (it's only fast food and doesn't even taste good), these letters whining about the lack of feedback on CHRS, the lack of compliancy for idle rev and 1eng taxi and the urge for skippers to "coach" the operation and crews. - How on earth can you expect any kind of cooperation when displaying dictatorial pecking down the order yourself? Have they ever even heard something about modern leadership? I know this region lives in the 15th century by their counting, but most mangers are of 1st world origin and education, even most dish-dashs boast such education themselves. Haven't they studied recent history and human management? It will backfire, for sure, it always has. If it's not by passive resistance of the sl .. employees, it will be by a smoking hole. :yuk:

[Ketek400]

Now they will struggle to get rid of " open time"!

Solution; don't fly overtime. Or join the 380 fleet.....hahha

[kennedy]

Oh, so they still want to pick me up 2:15 before departure, me thinks that my driver will be waiting for a while!:}

[Volverine]

So F/oforever is a Captain LOL ! keep it OFF man and enjoy the left seat !

[EKALPA]

I told you We need to get organized But did you listen Noooooooo.
Hey ketek400 you got the awswer get a lot of Ky jelly because is just starting. Just got it from a reliable source that fix electric and water allowance like the phone allowance is coming, anything extra salary deducted so convert your garden into a kids sand pit.
pay cut of 10% effective May 1st, only 4 weeks vacations , No company contribution on your providence fund.
If you don't like it leave, We are 200 pilots fat.
We allways looking for further cuts ideas

cheers.

[kennedy]

Don't forget the removal of transport to/from work, wonder how long that's going to last?

[Fugazi]

Kennedy & EKALPA..............You guys (I assume you are male, as most females would have more sense) are complete tw**ts!!! Are so so naive that you don't think EK management read these postings? Well, I assure you they do.......All you are doing is giving them more ideas to cut our package. Gosh I really hope you guys do not play poker. You'd last 5 minutes, at best!!! Raise your concerns with management, like I have, not give them ammunition to shoot us all in the backs. :ugh:

[buzz&sntch]

Raise your concerns with management, like I have
Did it work? Did you walk away with any kind of meaningful exchange? Maybe it's just me, but I seem to come out of such meetings baffled and in a sour mood. What also were the long term effects? Not flaming, just really curious.
I will give management credit that they are aware of our every benefit, and posting of such benefits probably wont remind them to take them away, even if they waste their time in a collosal way by reading these posts. I enjoy reading these posts because they can usually justify whatever mood I'm in at the time.

[Marooned]

We’ve been here before and we’ll continue to be shafted until planes stop flying.

Whilst we have self-serving, spineless sycophants for ‘managers’, who are powerless anyway, wielding the prod handed down to them by the powers that be we will continue to feel the pain.

From DECs to crew rest facilities, accommodation to duty hours and now ‘sharing the pain’ with our over time they run roughshod over our terms and conditions because quite frankly they can get away with it.

We can & should resist with ASRs, ignore 'fuel saving advice' but what they really need to understand is a clear signal that enough is enough. How?

Coordinate a 'Press 2', an en mass sickie planned on a specific day. It would ground the fleet and cause chaos. It would make the press and cost the company dearly.

Likely hood of it happening? Zero, but I like to think about it anyway.

We are easily divided, live in fear of losing our jobs and therefore easily ruled. From Capt US, TCAS’s DEC BA mates (in contravention of the FOM but TCAS reserves the right to enforce or ignore it when he wants) to all the other Vaseline encrusted ‘colleagues’ there are too many of us prepared to go to work on days off let alone do something as a group to stand up to the abuse.

The only good thing about the current financial crisis is that it was inevitable and the sooner we get through it and out the other side the sooner there will be opportunities to leave.

[White Knight]

So I take it that management will be working every Friday now - to 'share the pain'.. And of course for no extra pay:ugh::ugh:

I haven't worked any days off for a long long time, and certainly won't be doing so in the future:ok:


EKALPA (wishful thinking).. 'Reliable source'? Well, the productivity threshold is NOT a contractual subject.. However, most else of what you mention IS and it won't change - ie 42 days leave, company provident contributions, utilities paid for.. What may happen is a 'B' scale type contract attempted for new joiners, but like every big announcement it's all hot air and will all blow over once senior managers are happy they've stuck their finger up at us....

Remember - this comes from people who think that the 343 and 345 have brake fans:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[dooner]

Hmm, let's see we are saving how much in fuel each week, according to stats roughly 6-8% below budget each week (from the weekly OPs update), that is a lot of juice saved to date, as well as cash.

So if the post from above is correct and they are taking back a minimum of 17% in overtime costs, I wonder how long it would be before that 17% is now eaten up in extra fuel burn, after all we are responsible for "SAFE CONDUCT" of our flights and our passengers expect nothing less. Remember idle reverse is only when "operationally feasible" (according to the talking a-hole, sorry horse!) and it is embarrassing running out of energy and having to use a whack of power to get to the gate after shutting one or two down when it is all uphill to the spot.

By the way anyone else concerned about spending 5 hours or more on a regular basis at levels above 370........

Food for thought

Dooner:ok:

[Wiley]

Maybe it's just me, but I seem to come out of such meetings baffled and in a sour mood.That's because all such meetings are tightly scripted well before any hapless line pilot walks through the door, and always have been.

Am I the only one who's wondered if the message just might sink in to the heady hights if no one turned up to meetings such as the Thursday talkfests?

I know it will never happen - there'll always be some poor sod who believes he will be listened to if he goes to such meetings (or imagines himself to be on the bottom of the greasy pole) - but I can't help but feel that this would be the one message they might actually understand.

[dustyprops]

This place is becoming pretty average pretty quickly. This lot have gotta be the most short sighted "management" team I've ever come accross. As soon as things improve, you'll not see anyone for dust around here. Why on earth is there no "working group" here?

[halas]

Increasing the roster-able hours per month for only flight pay and not productivity is a sacrifice by the pilot group.

What sacrifices are Ed, TCAS, AAR, TC, MF, etc - and every other department making?

halas

[Schibulsky]

Oh, by the way, the jealousy which greeted the last three payrises means don’t even bother discussing it with anyone outside the pilot group (eg. cabin crew or ground staff). With the exception of the engineers who’re being bent over themselves, there’s a lot of joy spreading around the group that the greedy, lazy, thieving pilots have finally been brought to heel.

Please check the facts before posting such :mad:
Anyway this kind of stupid comments might be responsible for the way you are viewed by others. :D

I can see AAR laughing his @ss off cause his plan works: Pi$$ off everybody and wait till out of frustration they turn onto each other! :ugh:

Believe me, we ALL get screwed!!
I.E. the roster changes at the NCC or just the fact that during the last years we got min 1 aircraft per month delivered and not a single additional flight dispatcher was hired. This year even the ones leaving will not be replaced. Talking about 20%+ productivity increase!! Similar developments at other departments!

So please dont degrade your otherwise reasonable post to :{ by complaining about the bad bad jealous colleagues:=
btw. I am really jealous when I see you going on a nice overnight t/a to the subcontinent;)

Marooned comment We are easily divided, live in fear of losing our jobs and therefore easily ruled.
is correct for the whole workforce!

So PLEASE keep our anger directed at the :mad:"management"

[5star]

With the introduction of these new limits the company will try to max-out everyone on the line. In less than 6 months quite a few of us will be over the 900hrs limit. Guess what.... It wouldn't surprise me if they send you and me home for a few months to
rest WITHOUT PAY. It is the ME version of unpaid leave that you most likely will not appreciate.

Lets be honest guys, you and I knew it from day one that we would get scr*wed one day. Well get ready, it's only the beginning.

[White Knight]

5* - that's total garbage!!

[PositiveRate876]

By the way, if your ALT destination was an offline station, you've been automatically assigned an online destination of their choosing.

There was a small envelope under the larger one. Check your mail again.

[alwayzinit]

Gentlemen and ladies.

Whilst I agree the method of release and reasoning/spin of these latest developments are insulting, I do feel we all know that it is time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Aviation is an industry that is used by the travelling public as a WANT, very very few people really NEED to fly, it's luxury especially since video conferencing became possible.

The big picture is the world airline industry has never seen it this bad ever and it going to get worse.

The Legacy carriers of the US now cannot go Cp 11 as there is no money to shore them up.

BA just announced huge losses and other big Europeans will be doing the same soon.

The bottom line is who will still be "alive" when things pick up ..............whenever that might be........wins.

Personally I would rather be "alive" when that time comes.

So yes the T+Cs are getting worse, that hurts(it's going to get worse too) and it's insulting to be treated like morons but trying to trip up the golden goose is, well :ugh:

I have been in this business all my life from airline brat to 49yr old KOS (Knackered Old Sh1t) and if we really want our happy retirement wherever that may be we ALL have to pull together.

Yes the senior management should open up and show how they are shareing the pain, chances are they won't , that however does not mean should behave like stroppy kids.

Alwayz

[ekwhistleblower]

Hi,

Method of release was a personal letter, how else should they have done it?

Check out the loads at the moment, EK like everyone else are suffering. I spent yesterday looking at the cash balances of some European airlines to see which ones will go bust next. So the tosh about the pilots getting together and wasting cash does my head in.

EKWB

[downandoutagain]

I hardley ever do overtime. If only I could fly a bit more for time onto my lugbook I would be happpy. You are complaning too much. Who need days off when we live in such a bootiful country?
I have a job and it is nearly secure for the near future. Thank you to the runners of thes company:ok:

[Marooned]

EK Whistler: EK is not a cooperative, I work-they pay. Loads may vary but I fly, a lot... that's what they employed me to do, not market to fill the seats.

A380_800: The same but we haven't lost anything yet but we're expected to pay in advance?

Down & whatever... get a dictionary. Just because you don't feel screwed yet does not mean it's not coming.

This is why we are fundamentally screwed; there are those who feel grateful, beholden to the company and see it in a way that they should do whatever is demanded for the sake of the greater corporate good. Or those who have seen this before in one way or another to see through it as a way of reducing costs to achieve departmental targets.

I for one don't buy the Ed 'personal' - 'share the pain' of a cosy EK family company in crisis. I see the reality of a cold, hard corporate business intent on survival at any cost ensuring the bonuses of managers and returns of major investors alike.

Just ask those who came from 'legacy' carriers in the US and Varig: were there Ts & Cs honored? Pension rights adhered to? Does anyone really think that corporate EK cares about any of us?

We have even less rights, NO RIGHTS yet the likes of above want me to feel responsible for the success of the entire company. It is a ploy, a cynical use of the current climate to squeeze very ounce they can for the sake of preserving the bottom line.

Regardless; 'The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true'.

[White Knight]

Marooned - get a dictionary AND a grammar book...

"were there T & Cs honored?" ---- It's 'their'.
"we have even less rights" ------ 'fewer' rights.

Sorry. Couldn't resist that;);)

And as for the compalints and lugbook!! How many ales hast thou partaken of tonight downandoutagain?


As for the loads - Feb is always a quiet month! But can you get to Oz on ID90 at the moment??

[Volverine]

Fighting the crisis all together yes good idea but why only pilots as to pay cash now with no warning, no strategy ?
"pilots meetings", look at the result. No minutes and axed conditions.
Thank you for this "favor"
Don't be surprise if some gets mad, you provoque it by yourself.
Remember, One goal, One team ! :rolleyes:

[buzz&sntch]

Dont worry everyone, I have faith that management will eventually do the right thing, they just have to exhaust all other options first. Thanks Winston!

[mensaboy]

I think it is fair to say that pilots at EK are screwed. We will not 'band together' at all. Take a look at Alwayzinit's post. He epitomizes what is wrong in this profession.

Nothing at all will change, except for the worse, until they cannot fill seats. EK will fill seats for the next 2 years, solely based on world-wide events. We have to sit back and take it, until the time comes when we can leave. That time is a long way off in my opinion. Where the hell am I going to go? I would leave here tomorrow if I had job with half the perks and half the bull**** of this company.

I started commenting 2 months ago about the general attitude of the office morons towards pilots. Where do you think this attitude comes from? OUR BOSSES !! They honestly believe we are overpaid and underworked ! In this environment, we cannot overcome this attitude, because we have no one with a brain or backbone in management to support us. ED is the biggest joke of a manager I have ever come across in all my years of flying. He is a YES MAN who believes he is a good manager.

Seriously... ED once said that Captain America taught him a lot about what is involved in being a Captain! That might be the most insane comment ever made! Well maybe the line about ''what planet are you on?'' is equally insane. We are up against morons, in a location that does not allow us to present our viewpoints in an effective manner, and ....... pilots are self-serving individuals. I would gladly call in sick on a given day, except for the fact I know that my colleagues would not do it in unison. Damn, the Pakistani and Indian drivers united, yet pilots can't seem to figure that out. We are our own worst enemies.

I don't even care anymore. I'll do my job and get on with life. Bring it down to 4 days off a month, we will still cave in.

You should seriously give your head a shake if you are considering coming to this nightmare in the sand. I have revised my opinion that pilots out of work might want to consider this place........ I now believe ANYONE coming here is dillusional.

[BOEINGA380]

Aviators

I have seen the sh^ft P*le growing in the last couple of months and my biggest question to us is what's waiting for us next?
It is a reality that everybody including EK and DXB are facing the global effects but hey: did not this country and airline wanted to be "part of the WORLD" so now they -we have to suffer with the world!

What can we do since we do not have a union but I do not believe in the union on its own but I believe that we have to THINK and ACT PROFESSIONAL but UNITED in these times. And I know I am talking horse Sh#t but trust me if we do not stand united as a group of pilots we will continuously be shafted. 60-80% of the guys complain down the route or during cruise but if we can do something that is total legal and within scopes of airmanship and S.O.P's we choose to follow the SOP's blindly which in a way is correct but not just the rules / laws but also the recommendations.

Folks we have to let the people who sit behind their desk know that we are the last line of the operations and that we do count in keeping this business safe and profitable. We are pilots but do not forget we are actually flight deck managers- we make and execute decisions and communicate this to senior flt ops management. Not the opposite! Look how we became in the last few months regarding taking fuel decisions just because we feel intimidated of Management. Taking "just" 500 kilo's extra -common 500 kg is not 2 -4 minutes extra with LD config. If you want take fuel and you can justify it take it!

Fellow Airmen and Airwomen please do not compromise safety at all cost but do collectively your part so that the company can "feel" who is in command. Whenever you sign a plan (as a PIC) you are in command of the entire operation of that mission-flight and not some office dude. Follow the FOM since that is the highest level of the airline law we have to follow and respect only the "SHALL and MUST" rules - remember Should is a recommendation and information is just advisory as long as it does not say SHALL- MUST- SHALL- NOT PROHIBITED! Off course observe other fcom limitations and placards as well.

And please do not tell me that this is unsafe and illegal and it will make the situation of EK worse. EK is making less then it was used to and wants but it is still not as bad as many other carriers. I know one word for this: GREED Btw that is the reason of the current global sh^t we are right now!

I do not mind working harder for less money if you can convince me with numbers and promise me that you will stick to this and not other surprise sh^ft in a few months/year from now under a mutual agreement. Remember a contract is according to the dictionary: (this dictionary is banned from the bookstore here :)

a legal document that states and explains a formal agreement between two different people or groups, or the agreement itself:
a contract of employment
At least I figured that the pay rises of 2006-7-8 are back in the pockets of our masters now and in the future. Wannabe's now you know why you have to wait in the holding pool and we need less manpower in the future. Stay pending for more!




My suggestions without compromising safety :

1) Whenever you get approached to do your alco-blow test at CBC- refuse and tell them to come back 60 minutes before ETD because then your official duty clock starts running. Don't care if they think it will delay the flight because if you know that you are going to be fine just insist you will do it at the proper check-in time. This YOUR right to tell them this. Follow the law-rules as per FOM- that is written on your piece of paper you signed that is now worth less then paper you use every day for a nice part of your body!
2) Why bother with these stupid time lines 1 hour and xx minutes before you officially sign in at CBC here in dxb. Go get your mail and have coffee and a chat with your friends-> no ,we all do and I will do the same and give EK the credit :( Take your time to do your checks and briefings and if you’re delayed it is not your fault because there is not enough time to do all required items in the legal time before a flight! Next time you write an ASR about fatigue mention the time EK wants you to be at the CBC to perform "pre-flight duties" and send a copy to GCAA and keep a copy for the record.
3) Taxi the airplane safe but not faster than 10 kts so you use more fuel during taxi and the engines run longer before and after a flight. Add more fuel if you have to for this- 200 -300 kgs And yes up to you single engine taxi: slow the bird down to 2 kts then rev the single engine up( advise Atc prior to avoid damage to other a/c ) to use more fuel then it would have cost for one engine taxi- hey it is not very comfy but it is still not an unsafe thing and please don't come with the poor airmanship crap! Or taxi on 2 engines all the time but max 10 kts and do not bother ticking the box on the back of the VR. It is not a law in the FOM, is it :-)?
4) Step climb 30 min to 45 minutes later then FMC allows the new optimum- yes burn some cont fuel- it is allowed and legal to do so- I mean if Bombay ATC does not give you 350 you’re stuck anyway so now you call the shots and stay lower longer. As long as you remain legal with your fuel numbers! You are allowed to use all your cont fuel! it is available to use if you "have to".
5) No block level changes just do "normal" step climb even consider point 4- it is legal to do so since your ofp is not calculated based on block level climb but step climb.

6) Use of Reverse: airplane is certified without use of Reverse- unless I am wrong- sorry then :). Idle reverse just where noise sensitive airport mandate this. But the FCOM says to select reverse so USE IT as much as you like and yes do not worry to use full reverse it there to be used! Use full reverse with reasonable Auto brake and roll safe to the other exit from the runway instead of trying to make M9 for instance. Use more runway means engines will stay on longer since taxi time is more so engines will burn more fuel. Why worry about the fuel: you already landed at your destination!! And remember to taxi 10 kts instead of 20-30 kts. Just expedite if ATC instructs it.
7) Select configuration as per manuals or a bit earlier (2-4 nm). Plan 10 nm GD with FL 20 on the 777 and drag it in instead of for instance 2000ft.Whatever flaps and gear it is on the bus. If asked to reduce speed 210 KIAS and Clean is 213- put the flaps down! And if ATC wants higher speed during app ( 160 to 4 ) just drop the bloody gear as long as you observe Mr. boeing's or Airbus's limits and meet the stable app criteria! Have seen this once and it makes a difference of couple of extra 100's KGS:-)- imagine an extra consumption of an extra average of 300 KG per flight and now multiply this per year...next year we will xx % above fuel consumption! Remember we are still working professional and we will always still be LEGAL! Just follow THE book and not the recommendations to save $$. Lawyers write laws and accountants count the beans and pilots fly an aircraft.
8) Do not refuse direct routing from ATC but do not ask for it- why bother?
Poor airmanship: No- your OFP covers you and what if you ask and ATC says Negative follow the route? Same Sh#t right? Remember follow only the laws and rules you have to.
9)High speed below 10? No just fly 250 kts! It does not make a bloody difference anyway it just feels nicer and better because a jet is designed to fly faster than 250. Do so only if ATC instructs you to do so but do not ask for it!
10) Commit to dest if it is within parameters: why? Just continue normal to dest and stick to dest required fuel amounts and when you reach the minimum req fuel just divert- you are legal to do so check 11.3.4
11) FTL's: go into discretion- yes use it as you feel like but never compromise safety because if you screw up a nobody will back you up! So use it now as a 'weapon'. If discretion has to be used unify and use fatigue as the real name of the game - you are legal and protected to do so. I know it easy to write this but it sucks when you are in the middle of nowhere with 400+ pax but in away a message is sent- hopefully. Do whatever you want but remember end of the day is ops has to be normal or restored no matter what if you screw up it is your "beloved job" ( I should say profession :) and career that is gone not the office dude's. Remember: Nobody is here to back you or me up so never compromise safety especially on the fatigue sectors and ULR and diverts early morning.
12) Use Full thrust for takeoff since it is allowed / legal and certified to use it - I love every of the 115 thousand pounds- feels like nice Porsche hehehe
13) select Climb thrust at 1500' and acc at 3000' every take off- uses more fuel anyway at least you are quieter all the time
14) Working on an off day: big no-no- when they ask you to fly tell them you are not fit- that's it halasz forget the flight tip or call out thing. Enjoy the day OFF with your loved ones NOW because if we continue to work like this until RA65 we won’t have much health left to live on this planet!So no point making the extra retirement buck- :mad: !

My question to you guys n gals is: what's next? But please be careful what you put here because you give the bean counters brilliant ideas how to extend the p*le longer with hot chili and peppers.

My 2 fills worth- feel free to comment and criticize and "eat me a live" for my "poor-airmanship"- that shows how "united we are" hehehe

Anyway I sell Vaseline to grease the p*le -special unlimited edition /recession discounted: Sand Vaseline by J&J - Good news 50 % discount for EPC members ( only if you fly over 90 hrs ) ...so hurry because we will all need it and there is plenty of stock (2 A380's full!) and more on order


Halasz
To whom it may concern thanks for reading this and extending the nice and shiny p*le- we will have the longest, biggest, thickest,most shiny one ( sounds like dubai huh:)

[Wiley]

it is time to wake up and smell the coffeeThread drift alert, but can someone tell me WTF that ridiculous phrase means and WTF it comes from?

[Von Richtofen]

Don't be fooled.
The economic slowdown was created by the same people now screaming that there is an economic slowdown.
It happened already and someone is making loads of money.
EK managers are just playing along with local arrogance.
WTF needs 58 A180?
The cloud was visible from a distance.My grandmother knew something was wrong.... too many indian buying Porsches...!!
They managed to place the biggest airplane order just before the biggest economic bust of the 21st century my best compliments!!!!
Now who has to make sacrifices ? You!!
Well ask your "managers" to show you their compensation packages.
There is only way to go there.... OUT AND AWAY !!!!

[Thylakoid]

Kennedy, I suspect that it is going to happen as soon as the new tram thing becomes operational. It will pass right in front of the COC :E

[Thylakoid]

Hey "downandoutagain," where is this "bootiful" country you live in?
What is wrong with you? Why don't you "compalint" like all the others?

How many hours do you have on your "lugbook?"

:):rolleyes:

[BYMONEK]

I've just finished helping my 7 year old with her reading and spelling homework.

Then I come on here and spend 10 minutes reading this nonsense. I do wonder, sometimes, whether I expect far too much from my kids. :ugh:

[allaru]

Things that are not going to work because sadly we are not, and never will be a united group.

*Go slows, extended briefings, cockpit prep, taxiing, ext, as all of these things will show up immediately, and action will be taken against individuals, who will get little to no support from the rest of the pilot group.

*Using extra fuel, ie no short cuts, levels, t/o and appr config see above

*Rated thrust t/o..just gona increase my chances of a failure

*Going sick... yeh right...how many times are you gona do that

*And many of the other hair brained schemes proposed in this thread.

As I have said before the airline depends upon the voluntary support from line pilots who fill a myriad of management and technical positions. The vast majority of those pilots never joined EK as such, so should be free to resign and return to their positions as line pilots. If they did so the airline would come to a halt in under a week. Imaging just a delay of a week for PPCs alone, every week that went by would mean X number of pilots unable to fly........Sadly we have too many among us with visions of management grandeur, or a bright star and a special set of wings, so it ain't gona happen in numbers sufficient to make a difference.

The fact is that we are in unprecedented times so things may have to change for ALL of us for the time being.

The days of plenty that allowed arrogant, one man banded, daygo suit wearing, mont blank pen wielding, manager spivs who saw it as their right to steel from their employees , and pay themselves exorbitant amounts of money at the expense of tireless employees ARE OVER.

If you've been one of those managers I propose you clean out you desk and slink off back under the rock from which you originated, before you get kicked there by a workers size 9s steel toe safety boots. Then when everyone has forgotten you (a day later) you may re emerge and join the queue and look for a real job. You should pray that you get a real boss who puts his employees first above all else.

Enough ranting so what to do.

Sack all of the idiot managers who refuse to, or who are incapable of communicating with their employees. This is a basic management function so if they can't do it they should f%$k off. In this game they are a safety hazard.

Sort out the huge number of superfillous office activities, and associated staff and significantly cut their numbers. I'm sure the office bunnies work like Heather Mills in an ass kicking contest but I would question what is being done, and does it really need to be done. Do we need a huge flight ops and training department to re invent the wheel all the time, issue stupid and useless notices and FCIs (which hardly anyone reads anymore) and micro manage pilots with annoying phone calls over minor misdemeanors. Send them back to the line.

To go would be

HR

What the hell do we need HR for anyway, I think flight ops, and every other department can recruit and administer their own staff with a bit of cheap software. And do a better job. Another invented and unnecessary creation of modern failed business culture which we did perfectly ok without before. HR is the biggest con job of the past 20 years

PHYSC DEPARTMENT

Total waist of space and money. Don't need them for recruiting, or anything else. Crazy people can be sent to a specialist as per any other problem.

ACCOMODATION DEPT

Not a definite on the to go list but the empire that has been built over recent years, although improved since the departure of the orderly Corporal Q-cumber is probably in need of massive review.

MEDICAL DEPARTMENT

Great staff, and fantastic support when things really go wrong, but it just doest work anymore for day to day issues, too many tom dicks and harrys going there now so rarely can you get access when you need it. Close it down and give private insurance appropriate to ones level.

WAGES PILOTS AND OTHERS

EVERYONE must share the pain. If the company loses money the boss and his cronies get $1 a year till its fixed. (and no bonuses)

For pilots reduce basic salaries down to a level representing 50 or so hours of flying, then pay overtime on a sliding scale for every flying and duty hour above that. The scale would mean significant remuneration when hours go above high 80s. It would mean a significant cut now, but lots of days off, but we should be allowed to clean up when the good times return. A pay system relieves the company of financial burden when times are bad and allows them to pay **** loads when they can afford it. It also reduces sick days, and makes pilots happy to fly when times are busy as they make lots of money.

As opposed to increasing the overtime limit to an un unstainable level and adding to an already serious fatigue problem...YOU IDIOTS

Introduce similar productivity based systems for all other employees.

ROSTERING

Let the bid system run as is STOP MESSING WITH IT.... friggin children!!. If its oversubscribed remove the junior cabin crew. New joiner CC wouldn't know the difference anyway, and most only stay a couple of years and leave. Extend it to SFS and above. Remove childish ,vindictive and ridiculous restrictions which make the system impossible to administer. If we do our 50 or 90 hours whatever is required and we get 20 days off, tuff titties. We might need the rest as we may spend the next two months flying our rings off.

Allow commuting rosters...Derr

BASINGS

Probably do able but not so easy for pilots to be honest due to lack of flexibility in substituting types and so on should the need arise. But a definite possibility for Cabin crew for the following reasons. Base as many as pos off shore and pay local wages plus 15-20%.
Crew the flight with a maximum of 30% or so off base crew from the destination or origin base....please don't divert this thread into a basings issue.

*There are significant numbers of them, so cost savings are significant.
*A high proportion come from parts of the world where salaries are low.
*If they get together and decide not to front for a flight for whatever reason, with only 30% from the base the flight can still go, leave them behind.
*They are happy as they stay at home and earn better money that they would get with their local carrier.
*Those from the low cost countries that would be targeted contribute little to the UAE economy and remit a large proportion of their salary anyway.

LOADS FLIGHT SCHEDULES

Low cost carriers are doing well now as business travelers seek to save costs. Seize this opportunity now!!

Accelerate fly Dubai and re paint some of our wide body aircraft including the white elephant in fly dubai colours. Issue all pilots with a new set of wings, and sell them a leather jacket (it is low cost you know) leave the hat at home, and second them to FLY Dubai when required. (Less recruitment, training ext required, and eliminates costly retrenchments from EK should things get that bad.) Introduce the narrow body aircraft as and when required.

Reduce flights NOW to places where demand has dwindled, and substitute a proportion of flights with FLY Dubai aircraft. Say out of 6 LHRs offer 3 as fly dubai. Offer bucket price fairs using all economy A380s on AUS-UK (via Dubai so they spend some money here) and AUS-US routes (lets face it V Australias gona fail ). Use the 380 all economy to JED and BOM, least it might make some money on those routes. No grog and basic food.

Watch the market closely and do the required preparation now to be able to seize route opportunities immediately as other carriers fail.

LEAVE
Make all staff use up their leave. Offer limited unpaid leave if required.

LAYOVERS
Can't be messed with as they are marginal as is, and have significant implications on morale, and fatigue. OFFER minimum rest layovers to those who want them to places where it is legal and feasible to do so so. Offer 12hr LHR, 24hr IAH they suit some people but you can't force it as it has serious fatigue implications. There's one thing offering, as it may suit some people, but its a totally different thing mandating it. This should be done in conjunction with removing limitations on days off ext. NOTE TO MANAGERS don't try this trick with the silly limitations you have imposed on our days off, as obviously it wouldn't work.

TRAINING
Adopt train to proficiency. The present system is useless, unnecessary, and a waist of sim resources, trainers, and pilots time. After initial type rating/upgrade space the first 2 years of TTPs at 6 months, then go to 12 for the next few years, and eventually 18mths between TTPs for those who are experienced, and have demonstrated consistent competence. Do away with checking its old hat. Savings would be significant.

HUMAN MANAGEMENT

ENOUGH OF THE CRAP WE CAN'T AFFORD TO PLAY CHILDISH GAMES ANYMORE THE WORLD AND DUBAI ECONOMY IS IN DEEP **** - WE ALL NEED TO PULL TOGETHER NOW, and with a bit of luck we could actually profit from this crisis.

Human relations issues which could be implemented to help ease the pain.

-leave the rostering system to run its course (NO COST)
-let us use un occupied pax seats on long haul (NO COST)
-let crew use the jump seats (NO COST)
-offer basings for cabin crew (MAKE MONEY)
-Offer commuting rosters (NO COST)
-Support your pilots, there a valuable and more useful asset than you realise (NO COST)
-Communicate regularly with your pilots and go on a few multi day patterns every now and again. Even you TC, you are welcome ....( NO COST)
-Listen to your pilots and pay serious attention to safety reports before we have a serious incident. (NO COST)
-Re write FDLs to mitigate fatique, not to suit EKs patterns. As is they are an absolute joke.
(NO COST)



AND THE BEST YOU COULD OFFER IS LIMITING OUR DAYS OFF TO 12 WITHOUT ANY VALID REASONING.....GREAT MANAGEMENT...BEND OVER AND ACCEPT MY VIRTUAL SIZE 9.

[145qrh]

There are plenty of opportunities for IFS to save money.

DOH,MCT,BAH,DMM,KWI: cancel the in-flight service, F and J eat in the lounge anyways, take min crew.ie enough to cover the doors and no more..save a fortune.

Will it happen?

Should it happen ?

[White Knight]

Then it wouldn't be a 'full service' airline would it?

And things aren't that dire anyway - still making a profit boys and girls, but as has been pointed out, 'greed' of those at the higher levels is the main problem.

[kingoftheslipstream]

White knight

I agree with your post. EK is still makinn' a **** load of money. This is management gouging us to take advantage of a global situation and introduce new working conditions. They're just exploitin' the old 'fear' and 'greed' paradigm in a different way. We ain't ever goin' back to the ol' productivity rules.

I don' reckon we've got any choices though, other 'n industrial type actions which mosly make me feel uncomfortable.

I really don't know what to do m'self. I just feel 'turnstiled and junkpiled' in the words of the late great Townes Van Zandt... :sad:

happy contrails

[Craic Ore]

......just press 2 when tired and call fatigue. AND don't work on ANY days off no matter what. For free? Why would you?

I'm a company man, or former company man that has been lost by the latest policies. It's too bad that it came from a great gig to this.......

[LHR Rain]

When was it a great gig?

[Fart Master]

I have to agree with many of the sympathies expressed above, I used to think it was somewhat of a symbiotic relationship, sometimes they helped me, sometimes I helped them.............:ok:

............but now I feel absolutely gutted, the 'management' if that's what you want to call them have sh*t on us from such a great height that they can p*ss off if they think I'm going to help. Number 2 is going to be my friend from now on, and before someone says that I means someone else gets called out, just remember you are a one man/woman rostering unit, the company doesn't give a sh*t about your fatigue and health levels just as long as you fly the tube from A to B and then back to A, we don't get paid enough to retire early, so as with a long run you have to pace yourself carefully. :=

I wonder how much TCAS's and that American morons' T's & C's have changed over the last 3-4 years.:hmm:

As a friend of mine doing an economics degree told me, "Mate, all the good managers get hired by Banks, Law Firms, Drug companies, Electronic companies etc., what's left i.e. the second and third tier managers get hired by the airlines, they are just not good enough to work for companies that require ABILITY, I mean let's look at their salaries in comparison to the good guys...." I think that says it all:ok:

[Volverine]

Allllllll those great good (and bad) ideas here on this public forum, open to everyone even Competitors...Administrations...Media...Customers...And others good fellas waiting for some crunchy stuff. They are well served now.
What if an "incident" does occur ? :eek: OUPS !
This is a brilliant demonstration of an absolute and hazardous EK internal communication failure (Transponder code to use in this case is 7500, for non pilots, I know there is plenty)
Oh how much cost this departement to the company ? Hum to much.
Please wait for the latest glossy Najmfull SAFAR edition about pilots sacrifices acceptance.

[disconnected]

Mad as I am with this latest development, I can't condone sabotage by way of increasing costs. We are professionals and the airline itself is not the enemy. Its our very livelihood.

I agree that this was a kneejerk reaction to a situation that put pressure on those who devised this scheme. IMHO it is is badly thought out, unfair and does not address the problem they claim it was set up to solve: "the current hourly block figure that triggers Productivity Pay is no longer appropriate in rosters containing these (LR and ULR) flights."

All rosters are different in the amount of LR/ULR flying they contain. Likewise even the same pilot has a differing component every month. However some do little to no LR/ULR for various reasons, including their freedom to chose.

The solution should have been to factor the LR/ULR block hours for productivity credit purposes while requiring the whole amount to be logged (licencing purposes notwithstanding). I understand that this is in fact the law

This would be fair and would also deal with the problem they posed in their letter. After all 5 hours in a bunk cannot be compared with 2 sectors at night to BOM.

This way the original Block Hour Thresholds could have been maintained, the problem solved, safety preserved and the requirement for efficient rostering maintained.

There would also be a sensible limit on time in aircraft, while addressing fatigue issues on rosters not containing LR or ULR flights.

The original Block Hour Thresholds had previously taken into account the loss of credit for time before and after flight, reserves, sims etc. It was a stretch in itself.

In fact the letter indirectly admits that the previous Thresholds were entirely appropriate in the case of rosters without LR/ULR flying.

There is nothing like fixing things with a sledge hammer. True technicians

"we will only succeed if we work together". I'm still trying to figure out how the "we" includes those who don't actually fly but dreamed up this scheme.

Of course if the problem posed is not actually the problem but simply a guise to increase productivity thresholds for all time, while allowing complete latitude in inefficient rostering and then marketing it to the boss as a budget cut for purposes of personal remuneration - Well that's a different story.

[fo4ever]

Disconnected:

I am with you on this one:

I can't condone sabotage by way of increasing costs

It will do no good to use extra fuel just because we are pissed off!!!

[Saltaire]

Isn't this just a typical brushstroke excuse to cut high levels of productivity primarily targeting the training department? I have worked barely two productivity months in the past year and I would imagine most line pilots to be similar. I do know of the vast majority of trainers work a consistent and comfortable 90-100 hours. Not that they don't deserve compensation and incentive pay, but I do have an issue with some of the pre assigned flights to OZ for example. Questionable training value for 27 hours in 3.5 days...10-15k drms per month in extra hours is likely the cause of this draconian decision.

[mensaboy]

Two overtime months in the last 12 months for me: total less than 5000dhs.... yet they still manage to fatigue me.

Lets face facts, this is a cover-up for the incompetence of scheduling and not just a bean counters 'cost savings'. How often do we get a return to DXB at 0630, only to be placed on a flight the next day at 0800? I go from red-eyes, to afternoons to early mornings without ANY consideration for the health affects.

If you saw my last RESERVE month, and the numerous and absurd changes, then it would be quite clear how messed up the department of crewing is. They are incompetent that is for certain, but they are also saddled with crazy restrictions which have no basis in what is healthy for pilots. They have become a vindictive and jealous department that believes the bull**** spouted by the likes of the utimate moron; the foaming mouth talking Horse.

I think we might be best served with 'LINES' in our bidding system. Lines, simply put, are 2000+ rosters offered and we bid on them according to which one we desire. I have not been a fan of such rostering in the past, but in THIS place, I think it would better than what we have now. Screw the AD days, screw the max DO's and come up with the 2000+ rosters that fill the schedule. I swear, It has to be more efficient and give us more options, rather than bidding and not having a clue.

Clearly the bidding system does not work for the vast majority of pilots here, except of course if you are one of the two CRS 'experts' and get what you want each month, or perhaps a long-serving 'local' who basically makes up his own roster.

The bidding system is a nightmare. The rules are insane and the people who are tasked with looking after our best interests (sorry I had to stop typing to laugh, because in truth they are 'tasked' with being incompetent YES MEN), and also those people assigned to deal with our skeds on a daily basis, are idiots.

To hell with this crap. List a thousand LINES for Airbus and 1000+ for Boeing, and we can look at them and bid them accordingly. The advantages would be; stopping changes, a better idea of what we will awarded almost entirely based on seniority, and it also precludes so many Reserve and AD days. The other added benefit, is the idiotic Training Department (scheduling), might actually have to use a few brain cells to design a sked.

Sorry to rant, but things are getting stupid here.

[Volverine]

First nothing new in the "Rumour Buster" BIG LOL:D:E
I agree with previous long post ROSTERING IS CRAP, COSTY, TIRY AND UNFAIR.
Please managers during your daily "crisis fighting meeting" make a close study and check your stats, it's ridiculous.
You should have done that before axing our conditions.
Give a gold Najm award to the one able to make rostering efficient and fair, not to the one whos just telling you " Blame the pilots !".
Because we are doing what is rostered, not what we want to do.

[Sabeji]

Those who had an ALD in a city not serve by EK will receive a letter stating that it will be modified to the nearest EK destination.
-Working 4 days more per month with the same salary
-not more then 12 days off, the rest in reserve
-no more other airline ALD, pay your own ticket...

Some would say we should still be happy for having a job.
But I had a pretty good one before coming...Now I would not have come at those conditions and I can't go back!!

Still, I guess someone can make a living at those condition.
But, is this just the beginning of something worse to come??? :sad:

[White Knight]

I believe Sabeji that it applies only to the US pilots - because EK now flies to their home country.. Just like the Aussies who don't get tickets to Broome for example if they are from there there, just Perth..(Or to make it more interesting they may send you to SYD:D)

That said - if it STATES 'Littleville' or whatever in your CONTRACT, then you could fight that one...

[MR8]

I do agree with the fact that EK now flies to the US and all that. However, we have been flying to the US for about 4 years now, and most of the Yanks came in AFTER we started flying to NY, being informed by EK that they got one ALD ticket HOME.
Of course, our coverage of the US has improved a little bit, but even so, EK has lured in pilots with yet again false promises. Luckily they didn't lie about accommodation, fatigue, rosters, ... :E

MR8

[fatbus]

It(ALT) also applies to some Cananian cities, dont have the details. Why would you leave a good job to come her? Let me quess big airplane ego.

[schismatic]

Folks stick to the topic. While the issue of ALD's is topical, I think the debate here is on Productivity Pay. The other issue should perhaps be an independent thread.