VIPA application for VirginBlue Union registration dismissed.

[slice]

So what now for VIPA ? Can they try again if they reorganize themselves or is it all over ? Does anyone have any further info.

[Yusef Danet]

Despite unseemly gloating by the AFAP the VIPA application was rejected for a technicality regarding the association's first meeting. The meeting will be re-run, the boxes correctly ticked and it will proceed once more. For the AFAP to imply that VIPA is no more can be described as disingenuous at best.

As an AFAP member I am irritated by my subs being wasted on fighting an expensive and unnecessary court challenge. VIPA should be allowed to rise or fall on its own merits. The AFAP should compete for members by the service they provide, based on the experience they've gained, not by protesting the presence of a competitor.

[blow.n.gasket]

Yusef Danet wrote:

The AFAP should compete for members by the service they provide, based on the experience they've gained, not by protesting the presence of a competitor

Going by that Yusef ,I'd suggest VIPA will have a long and fruitful existence, good luck !~:ok:

[coaldemon]

My understanding is that the legal costs of the proceedings were in the order of $80,000 for VIPA so unless it was done pro bono it might be costly for the rank and file to start again.

[maui]

Until you take out the AIPA contribution.

[fmcinop]

Let’s wait for the transcripts to be released. I think there might be a little more to it that just a minor oversight at their first meeting.

[blow.n.gasket]

Sounds to me like the AFAP are fighting for their very existence.
Heard through the grape vine that there has been a large take up of Jetstar pilots joining AIPA.
Might the time be ripe for a few influential people to put their egos away and start talking and actually doing something about a unified pilots union in this country, before all pilots jobs are offshored .

[Phlap1]

Jobs won't be offshored, just terms and conditions dropped
to proper third world levels.The only folk who benefit from
the AFAP's existance are the staff and the loss of licence
parasites. This VIPA can't do any worse.

[Yusef Danet]

Might be time for regime change on Albert Road.

[snoop doggy dog]

Remember back in 2000 when a boss would not pay my holiday pay. Being a fanancial member, called the AFAP and asked for some help.

"Sorry, we are too busy." :ugh:

I got busy and got my money. The AFAP got none of my money (or support) from that point on.

There are much better options out there than the AFAP, they know it and now are getting very desperate to keep members.

I wish the Virgin guys all the very best and hope that they can start looking out for themselves. :ok:

[Don Diego]

Phlap1,great post.Bravo you goat.:=

[fmcinop]

AFAP LOL Parasites..... Why not ask VIPA about how much money they have been siphoning off their members LOL straight into their pockets????? The AFAP do not make a Cent out of the MBF.

[contrails03]

All fees VIPA recieved from the LOL are shown in the accounts that were tendered as evidence before the commission. They are for the benefit of the members, and not one cent was pocketed as has been frivolously claimed.

Unsubstantiated allegations are not only unfair but defamatory and libelous.
I would be very careful posting such allegations and direct people to view the AIRC decision handed down by SDP Williams. You will clearly see that the application was dismissed solely on a technicality. I feel a strong appeal case may be on the cards.

[Capt OverUnder]

I trust the members who joined the VIPA LOL knew that commissions would be paid back into the coffers? By the way appeals cost money .... a substantial amount as with all legal costs!

[The Baron]

A friend of mine in the legal world estimated VIPA's legal costs to be in order of $150000 plus so far. How can they afford it? Where is the money coming from? I thought VIPA was a group of about 100 VB guys who had put $200 in each. Could someone explain, it doesn't seem to add up

[maui]

With AIPA contributing, anything is possible!

Maui

[max autobrakes]

Maui twice now you have made allegations that AIPA are financing VIPA, yet having spoken to a few mates on AIPA Com no one I spoke to knows any of this??
To quote a certain former Ipswich fish and chip shop owner
"PLEASE EXPLAIN" :bored:

[maui]

Max

Perhaps it would be pertinent for you to ask the VIPA
hierarchy the nature and cost of their dealings with the AIPA lawyers.
Consider also the mutual benefit to AIPA of having someone else in the mix.
Maui

[max autobrakes]

Maui
Isn't the goal here the setting up of AusALPA as a fully functioning entity rather than the figure head ephemeral beast it now is.
AIPA appears to be the only pilots organisation that appears to want an organisation whereby each pilot body has a say in their own Industrial destiny under a common umbrella organisation.That includes VIPA, the AFAP ,the JPC, the Tiger pilots council if they ever get one ,etc.
Why is the AFAP continually dragging the chain over getting this up and running? Sooner would be better than later.
It can't be a pissing contest because I have been told that the powers to be in the AFAP have been promised positions of equal or greater standing in the new entity.:confused:

[maui]

Max

Make up your mind. One minute we are are talking about covert support. Next minute you are talking about global industrial structure.

What is on your mind?

And BTW the AFAP have had the council structure, everyone largely doing their own thing under the one umbrella for yonks.

AIPA on the other hand was formed after that group walked out of the AFAP on the basis that they didn't want to be lumped under an umbrella with those "domestic cretins". And is an organisation that not too politely, showed the Impulse/Jetstar guys the door when they sought mutual assistance.

As they say, actions speak louder than words.

Maui

[Don Diego]

Contrails,was the commission from the LOL that you refer to disclosed fully prior to purchase or did this come to light as a result of the hearing???(I shall take no reply as "no disclosure").DD.

[contrails03]

D.D, The answer to your question is on the court transcripts.

[fmcinop]

I just had a look at the VIPA LOL advertised on this very web site. No mention of a portion of the fee not going into LOL. People pay union fees to support their chosen union. If I pay for LOL I expect my money to pay for LOL and nothing else. The LOL could have been either a lot cheaper or have provided and increase in cover if the full amount was used for LOL. I look forward to the full transcript being posted here for all to read.

Did not read on any post that "money was pocketed as has been frivolously claimed". What was suggested was that money was used for a purpose that was not disclosed to members at the time they signed up. If this is not true then you guys have nothing to worry about as the transcripts will reveal all.

[maui]

FMCINOP

Did you also read the bit where pay-outs are based on you not being eligible to hold a medical anywhere in the world for the next 5 years.

So, for example, if beautiful downtown Bangladesh changes its medical standard to allow your disability, under the terms of the policy, if you had been paid (?), you would be liable for restitution to the insurer. No matter that you have no desire or ambition to go fly in B'desh.

And did you notice that disability benefits are limited to 2% of insured benefit, per month, for a maximum of just 12 months. i.e 24% of nominated benefit.

Talk about a second rate policy!:ugh:

Maui

[Don Diego]

Contrails,that part of the transcript has not been released to the public yet so as it is apparent you were in the Commission at the time the evidence was given would you just answer the question??
Maui,did you happen to notice what the no claim period was??

[contrails03]

D,D I do not wish to give my own coments and opinions on a matter that is before the courts and is subject to an appeal. Especially on a rumour network.

I direct you to the decision handed down by SDP Richards and the court transcripts when they become available. If any issues are highlighted regarding LOL surely they will appear there :ok:

Regarding the LOL product, and it's virtues or otherwise, for a more balanced view you can call 07 3226 2066 where any questions can be answered.


If anyone has any questions you can contact the guys at VIPA.

[Don Diego]

Contrail,it was you that directed me to the transcripts to find the answer and those documents are not yet available so now I am curious as to your source??If you were at the hearing then it is a simple matter of recalling what was said,if you were not at the hearing then how reliable is your source that you refuse to repeat their information??You have still not answered the original question.

[contrails03]

D,D I do not wish to give my own comments and opinions on a matter that is before the courts and is subject to an appeal. Especially on a rumour network.


I direct you to the decision handed down by SDP Richards and the court transcripts when they become available. If any issues are highlighted regarding LOL surely they will appear there
I have stated my position regarding answering your questions. A full copy of the decision is available on the AIRC website. [2009] AIRC 68 (http://www.airc.gov.au/decisionssigned/html/2009airc68.htm) :ok:

Or the alternative is:

If anyone has any questions you can contact the guys at VIPA.

[Don Diego]

Contrail03,your refusal to answer the question is in itself the answer,thank you.As for an appeal pending,perhaps,but as of now I have seen nothing so why not discuss it??Thank you for the link to the decision,it is old news now and to save others who may be less interested it really goes to the legal reasons for the rejection and does not mention the LOL aspect.Another diversion to keep us off the LOL bit eh Contrail??So I have another one for you,bearing in mind VB management refused to have dealings with the new lot(VIPA),what exactly was it they were going to do??

[Hang Ten]

Why are so many of you upset about another Union, its a personal choise and if someone wants to be a member of the TWU, CFMEU or what ever, whats the big deal? Everyone is starting to get personal here, its quite fanatical. Its as if someone does not agree with another's views, they are wrong and to be chastised.

Does anyone get hasseled because they shop at Shell instead of BP for their petrol.

Its about free choise, and competition creates value, and at the moment some of these Unions are backwards in their theory/action yet have a good framework.

Its a shame that some of these Airlines are not Unions. If we could put that much energy into fighting another Union's registration, imagine what that Union could do to really start to represent it's members and put the gloves on from time to time and take the opportunity to really listen to it's members. If they did, would there be another Union trying to register itself. The road to recovery is firstly admitting you have a problem.

[maui]

contrails03

You brand my post as being "unbalanced".

As a statement of an actual condition, balance does not come into the equation. If I was comparing the provisions of one product against those of another, then there would an element of "balance" or "unbalance".

Does the policy not state at 4.1
The Underwriters may at their option settle the claim in yearly installments and require proof of the continuing disability if in their opinion it is not unlikely that the Licence(s)/Certificate(s) will be restored or the revocation cancelled and/or similar Licence(s)/Certificate(s) may be obtained anywhere in the world within five years of the Date of Loss

Does the policy not say at 5.7 b)
the inability of The Insured Person to obtain any similar Licence(s)/Certificate(s) anywhere in the world within a period of sixty (60) months from the date of the issuance of the unfitness assessment or revocation

Does the policy not state at Item 7 Insured events and Compensation

7.2.1 and 7.2.2 2% per month
7.2.5 Benefit period 12 months following Excess Period

Does 12 months multiplied by 2% per month not equal 24%.?

Pray tell, what is unbalanced about those quotes.

On the other hand if you were suggesting that I am unbalanced. Who knows? Krusty34 will agree with you, but it concerns me not at all.

Don Diego
In answer to your question.
You must notify the insurer within 30 days, or no deal. Then the clock starts ticking and you will have to wait for 90 days after the insurer recieves that notification or in the case of an "Undiagnosed Illness" 180 days.

Maui

[What The]

Just so that I can understand this thread and offer an opinion.

Two AFAP people (Don and maui) are arguing the merits of opposing Loss of Licence schemes i.e. the AFAP MBF v the VIPA deal, when the issue is pilot representation.

Isn’t that exactly the problem?

If the AFAP continues to rely on the MBF to attract members rather than providing what members perceive to be effective representation then there will be more VIPA’s as pilot groups go it alone.

This is not about LOL schemes, it is about being seen to be doing the right thing by the pilots in this country and negotiating good outcomes.

Unfortunately, whether you like it or not and whether it is true or not, the AFAP is perceived to be working with the companies to drive down terms and conditions. This is certainly the case with both VB and JQ. That is the issue the Executive of the AFAP need to face and address before everyone walks out the door IMHO.

[maui]

What The

Early in the life of this thread I posted a query about AIPA's covert support of VIPA. Remember the old adage "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I have made no mention of AAPMBF. I have merely pointed to a couple of glaring inadequacies of the VIPA LOL policy.

If you want a detailed comparison I will be happy to oblige, but it will take a while to get one together and it is probably better addressed in a dedicated thread.

Maui

[What The]

I'm afraid I don't understand your gibberish about covert ops Mav.

I say again:

Unfortunately, whether you like it or not and whether it is true or not, the AFAP is perceived to be working with the companies to drive down terms and conditions. This is certainly the case with both VB and JQ. That is the issue the Executive of the AFAP need to face and address before everyone walks out the door IMHO.

Don't miss the message.

[coaldemon]

I might be missing something here but at what stage has VIPA represented any pilots in dealings with management at either VB or JQ? Certainly if you look at the VB conditions they are miles better than the original agreement so I can't see how they have gone backwards.

[dirty deeds]

The road to recovery is firstly admitting you have a problem.

[maui]

Guys I am really having a problem here, perhaps you could put me straight. Why does VIPA exist and why is allowing itself to be courted by AIPA?

Apart from Hang Ten the consensus from this and other threads is that unity is paramount, that more can be achieved together than can be when apart.

For a variety of reasons a group in VB and now a few from VA have a desire to do their own thing (VIPA). Reasons as diverse as, disenchantment with the incumbent legally recognised AFAP, and for others power and/or ego.
To assist in their aims and under the guise of unity, VIPA and AIPA have come together for assistance and guidance.

AIPA is an organisation born of a splinter group, who decided that unity within the AFAP was not serving their best interests and that they wanted to do their own thing.
Led by two who subsequently became management (Westwood and Cant), rather than staying unified and working to change the structure of AFAP, to allow themselves a little more autonomy, they petulantly stormed out and broke unity within the pilot ranks of Australia.

From that action, evolved a change in the AFAP structure such that now there are several “Councils” (as well as Branches) working under the one umbrella. The pilots who are now AIPA could have been a part of that structure, but they chose disunity.
That same group, in more recent times, refused to recognise or assist those pilots who have become Jetstar. Now that Jetstar are taking away great chunks of mainline work, AIPA are suddenly interested in taking those pilots under their wing, IN THE NAME OF UNITY.

VB have always posed a threat to Q Dom flying and now we have VA on the scene as a potential threat to Q mainline flying. Given the chameleonic nature of AIPA is it any surprise that suddenly they want to embrace the V A&B pilots, in the spirit of unity of course. Gentlemen that is utter BS.

AIPA want to have a degree of control over any entity that has the potential to erode the Q network. Fair call that is what they are paid to do, protect their AIPA members.

The point is, do not be seduced by protestations of brotherly love, they are a single focus group, and if they suck you in they will exert control, to their benefit, not necessarily yours.

If you are unhappy with the AFAP, get in and take responsibility.
Nominate for membership of your council or branch and do some work for yourselves. It is a self help organisation, with tremendous resources, but the outcomes will only be a reflection of the input.
If you choose not to have representation that is your choice, always has been, and will be respected by the AFAP.
If you have had a bad experience with AFAP, look at the circumstances and ask yourself was the outcome reasonable given the circumstances or was I expecting too much.
A union cannot and should not defend reckless, irresponsible or criminal behaviour. A union can only defend a just process.
If you still have a problem write it all down and send it to Albert Road, don’t get on the phone and rant.
As far as terms and conditions are concerned, have a look at where you are now. Who has achieved what you have now. Was it AIPA? Was it VIPA?

The government and 6 airlines failed to destroy the AFAP and such is the nature of things that the only one left standing out of all the protagonists, is the AFAP. Learn to live with it cos it will be around until you retire. Better stiil get behind it and mould it to what you want. You can do a lot more with constituted play-doh than you can with the unmixed ingredients.

Maui

[Dehavillanddriver]

Perhaps AIPA live by the credo - "keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer"

Splitting representation at this critical time is just plain dumb in my opinion.

like them or hate them the AFAP are the reps for VB.

I cant help thinking that an AUSALPA is the way to go - however the petty turfwars between the AFAP and AIPA will put paid to that I think.

[Don Diego]

Hang Ten,are you suggesting that a better way to go would be to have many smaller "independant" unions each doing their own thing???
What The,I asked Contrail a question about a post of his that he will not answer,however,with the passage of time the transcripts will be public and I expect a response on this forum at that point.

[slice]

Dehavillanddriver, whilst there may be some personality issues I think the big problem is the AIPA hierarchy and leadership, having for all of its existence being in total control of its constituents, can't accept or adapt to what would be a far more devolved entity with various Pilot Councils. They have been very insular in the past towards any 'outsiders' and strike me as a very ossified organization stuck in an ever decreasing comfort zone (QF mainline). Many within QF mainline itself have become unhappy with the direction of the Association and I believe there was a large turnover at the last election.

[Deev]

Maui, What management positions did Westwood and Cant have?

[Nunc]

Deev, I will answer on behalf of Maui, none. Gw was the first president of AIPA and GC a former president neither ever held management positions. Wonder how many other furphy's in that post. On another topic having been a member of both the AFAP and AIPA I would take AIPA over the AFAP any day from my previous experience, good people in both camps but AFAP were a rabble when I was a member (I had left prior to 89 also). First to admit AIPA not perfect and like 99% of mainline very unhappy with how they have dealt with other pilot bodies in the past-been to the detriment of all parties, that said latest com is the best for some time and with a genuine desire to see all parties move forward. A unified pilot body whether it be one union or an umbrella group is the most important thing going forward if we are to improve conditions or maintain hard won conditions and to give those coming along behind us a career worth having.

[Deev]

Thanks Nunc,
Was aware of what you posted. Basically making the point that long posts trying to influence people should relate to the facts.

[Jetsbest]

GW has passed away, GC has been retired for years, and I would hazard a guess that less than 10% of current AIPA members were everin the AFAP "longhaul division" which became AIPA in the 1980s. Old prejudices die hard... :hmm:

[lofo]

Maui-if the AFAP are confident of the service they provide-why spend members money fighting the actions of VIPA.Why are the AFAP threatened by the possible formation of another union?
Competition in most market places is generally a good thing, if not a great incentive to keep the various parties on their toes.Perhaps the formation of VIPA has already prompted the AFAP to take a more pro-active approach to Virgin Blue issues during the past 12 months.This can only be a win to all the pilots regardless of the union they choose to pay there fees.

[maui]

LoFo

I am not FOR the AFAP per se. I am however an advocate for unity.

There are three in the mix.

AIPA who have a proven history of disunity and self interest.

VIPA ,a single focus splinter group of disaffected or unenamoured, who wish to align with the forementioned disunity/self centred group, and

AFAP who have the ability and resources the structure and the legal standing to represent all, under the one umbrella.

It's a no brainer to me.

As previously stated. If you are unhappy with the outcomes, be proactive, get yourself into the equation and take control of you own destiny, within the existing structure. Nominate for your council, take a few likeminded mates in there with you and mould the outcomes to what you want. If you are persuasive enough you will get on council. If you are not, your workmates wont vote for you, and democracy will have been served.

Fragmentation serves no one well.

Nunc.
Thankyou for taking the liberty of answering for me, unrequested. :=
It has been my understanding that both Cant and Westwood became managers within the Training and Standards area. Is that not correct?

Jetbest

that less than 10% of current AIPA members were everin the AFAP "longhaul division" which became AIPA in the 1980s. Old prejudices die hard...


Yes. Particularly when the reason for those prejudices reappears, as they did with the IPA/Jetstar guys.

Maui

[Nunc]

Maui, neither Capts. Cant or Westwood had any role in training, standards or management-ever. As far as AIPA having a history of disunity and self interest you could say the same of the AFAP. For one who is an advocate for unity you are doing a good job of being divisive, old wounds are not going to heal with the input from the likes of yourself judging by the post's you make.

[blow.n.gasket]

Now Maui there is a classic "Pot calling the kettle black" .
Just why did the Qantas pilots break away from the AFAP?
Might just be the same reason why a number of Virgin pilots wish to leave the AFAP.
Just been told by a mate of mine on AIPA Com that there has been a sizeable increase in members from different persuasions joining up with AIPA , I wonder which union they resigned from?
Is not AIPA pushing real hard for a workable AusAlpa whereby differing pilot groups in this country will have a say in their own destiny?
Just who is the fly in the ointment that is slowing this process down?:suspect:
As for motive, I wonder?????

[Don Diego]

Gasket,are you fair dinkum???:ugh: