A stolen private plane was shot down by...

[Ignition Override]

We taxied by some Air Force Reserve (or ANG) F-16s in Great Falls, Montana (KGTF) yesterday. They all appeared to have Sidewinder heat-seeking missiles on their wing tips. The FO told me that a small plane which was stolen from that area, had been recently shot down somewhere. The pilot must have disregarded whatever the F-16 tried to signal to him/her.

As the FO was in a hurry to bring a buffalo burger etc back from the restaurant for the flight attendants ("wagon dragons"), I wrote down the ATIS and called Clearance Delivery, in order to help out the hungry FO. The guy at Clearance confirmed that the unfortunate shootdown was in Idaho.

If you are intercepted over here in the US, whether the plane was stolen or not, you follow the fighter pilot's instructions or you die. I deleted a popular quote from Clint Eastwood, realizing that most fighter pilots would rather not shoot down a plane unless in danger etc.

[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]

[sanjosebaz]

Why didn't this make the news? Is there a gagging order in place for this kind of activity being reported? ... Or did I just miss the headline? :rolleyes:

[Fujitsu]

Can't find any mention of this elsewhere...a new urban myth?

[The Guvnor]

Would a light aircraft's engines generate sufficient heat for a Sidewinder to home in on?

Methinks this is an urban legend!

[Knold]

Well if it is true than I'm sure that the rightful owner is thrilled to have had his plane blown in to smithereens.

[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: Knold ]

[ForeignerFred]

I would think that it was the Air National Guard's F-16s that you saw and I doubt that they where armed. What you saw on the wingtips aren't real missiles, it might have been radar sensors or simply dummies. The wingtip on some fighters have a pylon attached that you would hang a heatseeker on and so on. If some fighterpilot shot down a civilian I;m pretty sure that it would make the headlines on every paper in this country, especially in these days.

[nurjio]

I wonder what The Guvnor's flare/IR countermeasure capability is like, because I'm sure he generates enough heat for any seeker head on earth to home in on.

[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: nurjio ]

[ 23 November 2001: Message edited by: nurjio ]

[Knold]

A bit jet-blast there nurjio, ehy?

[moggie]

A sidewinder can lock onto the heat geberated by skin friction on a fighter type aricraft so it should be able to get a lock on a piston exhaust. However, a light aeroplane is easy meat for an F16s cannon.

I believe that ther ARE many armed ANG fighters on standby by in the US 24hours per day - ready for just this eventuality. If the "Sidewinders" had fins on they are real - the dummies and training rounds do not carry fins.

However, like you guys I have not heard of the incident and would have expected it to be splashed over CNN.

[Steepclimb]

Sounds like an urban myth. I think there was a rumour surrounding a GA accident recently. That's probably where it originated.

Training sidewinders do carry fins. The easy way to tell is the colour. Live sidewinders are white or light grey. Training rounds are usually light blue as is common with virtually all dummy military ordnance, from hand grenades to bombs.

[Al Weaver]

I can just see it. With this kind of myth being bandied about, everytime a small plane goes missing, the population will suspect shootdown, being kept a secret by the military.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Surely in Idaho it would be a rural myth...

[Recover]

Steepclimb,

Well you're nearly right with the colouring of the round, versus Moggie's incorrect information regarding Sidewinder fins indicating whether they're live or not. Blue normally does indicate practice rounds whereas brown/yellow indicates live rounds. However, the position of the colouring varies and certainly the tube itself will not be all brown. Instead, the only way to truly tell is the colour of the bands around the missile about 1/3 rd down (ie the warhead). Blue=dud (good if you're on the receiving end). Brown/yellow=live (bad.....).


Moggie,

All that having been said, I would be very, very surprised if you could get an AIM 9 to lock onto a piston engine exhaust (ie the hottest part of a light aircraft). I've had great difficulty even with hot gas turbine helos. You would have to be EXTREMELY close and, combined with the closure rate of even a Harrier at slow speed and the minimum speed for successful launch, this would not give the 'Winder time to arm.

If money were involved, I'd have to second Moggie's suggestion re: guns, but in truth I reckon you're correct with the urban myth bet.


And.....

Recover

[blue up]

I'll go along with the "urban myth" theory....but my lawyer wonders if anyone happened to get a contact phone number for anyone involved. :D :D :D :D :D

[Liverlittle]

I've tried to get a decent lock on a bug smasher, usually you get it inside Rmin, but then that's why God created the 20mm cannon :D

As someone once said, "Nuns or Nurses, a kills a kill!" :D

[Navy_Adversary]

Anyone have a specific date when this 'shooting down' is alledged to have occured :confused:

[Ignition Override]

As we went by on the parallel taxiway, it looked like all of the missiles had about four fins on the rear. The missiles were of a very light color, but some were under the small alert buildings/shelters. My FO retired from the Air Force after twenty years of flying C-130s (was Squadron Commander at Little Rock, AFB) and Twin Otters. He might not be able to identify whether the missiles were the actual weapon systems or the trainer version.

It is strange that we never read about such an unfortunate incident. The guy with Clearance Delivery (in the KGTF civilian control tower) only said that it happened over Idaho, and said nothing else. Maybe no media people had any reliable info on this. If it really happened, and the plane was stolen, maybe the F-16 used his/her guns instead of a missile, over a remote area-Idaho seems to have many such areas, although I wonder if anyone has found wreckage from the plane.

I doubt if the air traffic controllers at Great Falls, MT, or Salt Lake Enroute Center (if such a stolen plane was painted by their radar over whichever mountains, especially if flying low) can speak very openly about it. Would Salt Lake Center have verified to a fighter pilot that there were no towns or villages ahead while the plane was intercepted?

[Navy_Adversary]

According to the NTSB site, two light aircraft have gone down in Idaho recently. Oct 16th at Dixie a Cessna 182 and at Lucille on Nov 5th a Cessna A185F :eek:

[BenThere]

There are F-16s all over the country flying cap over major cities and they are HOT. Just about every guard and reserve F-16 unit is participating as well as tankers. You don't want to make the wrong turn in holding as you would in the sim.

[Steepclimb]

You can probably assume some of then were carrying live missiles. Thanks for the clarification 'Recover' as to the banding. You know that old saying, 'I've forgotten more than you know' really applies as you get older. I know now for sure I've forgotten more than I know right now.

I still think it's an urban myth, America stil has a free press. Something like that cannot be covered up. It's a good myth though, let's face it people thinking of stealing light aircraft would think twice about it and drug runners.

[RATBOY]

Smells like an urban legend to me, and not a very good one at that.

[Al Titude]

Might have been a drugs running incident, I thought the F16s were involved with these on a pretty regular basis.

I very much doubt that in today's climate the missiles carried would be dummies. The heat source on a light piston would be very difficult for a heat seaker to track but not impossible. Cannon solution would be a lot easier on a small aircraft.