BAE-146 - a flying 'XJS Jaguar' ?

[aseanaero]

In Indonesia at the moment the 'hot ship' for Combi operations outside of Java (Kalimantan , Sulawesi and Irian Jaya) on shorter strips is the BAE-146

I have never had anything to do with these aircraft but have had a few friends that maintained and flew them 20 yrs ago in Australia when they used to say BAE stood for 'Bring Another Engine'

When a local operator asked me my opinion on the 146 I told him I didn't know much about them but my gut feeling was they were the aircraft equivalent of an old Jaguar , cheap to buy and incredibly expensive to operate and maintain that would probably bankrupt him (compared to say a 737).

I made a couple of enquiries with some friends of mine on parts prices and my gut feeling seems to be true , close to US$1 million for a set of zero TSO undercarriage and other parts seem to be double or triple B737 prices , plus you have FOUR engines (some argue 5 APUs) to give you gremlins.

Compounding this remote operations in a place like Irian Jaya I would say a 20 or 25 yr old 146 wouldn't like to be too far away from a fairly sophisticated maintenance facility.

Am I wrong ?

What are the most frequent 'no go' problems with this aircraft ?

I've got my flack jacket on so fire away :)

[yowieII]

Not wrong at all, a niche aeroplane finding itself out of its niche. In a previous life the company in hand had pretty much all quirks sorted, but I guess the volume compared 146 sales (around 250) compared to I guess well over 4000 now, would drive cost quite high, in comparison. Leasing cost will be still quite high due to the niche, but is that relevant now? Depends on your company requirements I guess:ooh:

[aseanaero]

Hi Yowie

What were the quirks ?

[WOTME?]

The Bring Another Engine bit was true but has been largely sorted out.Although the Avro RJ has the LF507(146 has LF502)which has a better temperature margin.There were some 146's out there with the 507 but I'm not sure how many are left.

[mrmagooo]

If operating in remote places a hidden benefit of four engines is you could always ferry fly on 3 engines to a maintenance facility...

But as with every type there are always quirks and little niggles here and there as well as benefits that out weigh them.....

As some operators are going to the wall this may reduce the demand and price of spares, but it is an orphan (no longer in production) so as time ticks by spares may become harder to source.....

If remote places are being used as mentioned the 146 is good for rough and short runways/ steep approach's so really it depends on where the a/c will be used as to if the it is more viable than a 737

[RJM]

Forgive the intrusion from a lowly PPL.

My cousin flies BAe 146's around Australia for Jet Systems, a freight carrier. The 146 has the advantage in Australian cities of being able to operate outside the usual curfew for city airports.

He has told me that the BAe 146 is 'four oil leaks connected by an electrical fault' which would be funny if it didn't refer to an aircraft.

In their favour, in my opinion at least, they look great.

I wonder if any pilots of perhaps compromised aircraft carry a parachute?

[sec 3]

Pretty quiet ride for the pax. You have to try pretty hard not to get a nice landing. Is there a slower jet on the planet ? Not good on short, icy runways with no reverse thrust.

[WOTME?]

Not too sure about oil leaks or electrical faults,but they have had a history of wing corrosion & occasionally a turbine blows.Also the back up from the manufacturer could be a lot better.They tend to cling to the hangar walls with their wingtips on base maintenance.

[mrmagooo]

Oil leaks? Perhaps talking about the number 3 bearing, an issue that was sorted along time ago, or so I was aware. As for electrical faults Im not really aware of a common major issue with them.

With regards operating on icy runways Im not sure if this applies to your situation, as I thought Indonesia was quite a warm place all year round, but I dont know many jet aircraft that stop quicker with or without thrust reversers.

As WOTME said the wing tank corrosion can be bad, and if you look in the manual (not got one to hand) you will more than likely find Indonesia will be in the high risk area.

[aseanaero]

Corrosion is always a problem here with any aircraft but suprising when they are operated regularly all the mositure gets driven out and they probably get washed and cleaned more here than other countries

When they are parked outdoors and not used thats when the big problems begin. More than 3 years and generally an aircraft will be too far gone. I can date how long an aircraft has been parked by the mould growing on the skin.

The smell I really hate is humidity mixed in with residual chemical toilet smells when the aircraft has been closed for months , smells like aircraft death (mixed in with old baby nappies).

SNOW IN INDONESIA ... not a problem , snow here is pre-melted (never gets below 22 or 23 deg C at any time of the year) however the rain can be something else.

[aseanaero]

The 146 operators here are keeping pretty tight lipped about their experiences with the aircraft so they are either making bags of money , skating on thin ice or losing a bomb , time will tell

The big attraction is good take off and landing performance , payload , range , speed , ability to do cargo and freight but they have only been operating here I would guess 12 to 18 mths and already there are 2 out of probably 10 or 12 aircraft permanently parked in front of one of the maintenance facilities awaiting parts and or payment from the operators.

BAE make some great aircraft but complicated, I think there is some truth in the old saying

The Yanks - designed by experts to be operated and maintained by idiots

The Brits - designed by idiots to be operated and maintained by experts

And to keep your BAE flying in this part of the World those experts may not be available for a while as the locals come up to speed on the aircraft and won't want to employ expats to avoid costs , which of course will be false economy at this stage.

As I said at this beginning of this thread , the BAE-146 is like a Jag V12 when a Chevy V8 might be able to do the job , similar performance , big difference in operating cost and complexity. Like trying to get an F1 car serviced in the jungle.

[aseanaero]

Good solution found ... instead of buying the operator is discussing an ACMI deal , best of both Worlds :-)

He did say on the phone this morning one of the points of discussion will be how unavailability of the aircraft will be dealt with.

Thanks all.

[Engineer]

BAE make some great aircraft but complicated, I am sorry if you think that the 146/RJ is complicated then you must have limited knowledge of aircraft maintenance.:confused:

What I would say is that is typical British technology in terms of belt and braces. Along with the fact that your spilt pin/wire locking techniques have to be top notch :{

[Capot]

You have to try pretty hard not to get a nice landingYes, indeed. Here's someone who got it worked out, though (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5prz1Ae5QM).

(very old video, I know, but I couldn't resist.)

[RVF750]

Funny, but my experience of 146s is that a good team of Engineers who know the aircraft properly can keep one servicable no matter how wet it gets.

146s don't like water ingress. Keep the drain in the forward door area clean and unblocked at all costs. Water seepage here goes right through to the back of hte avionics racks and causes havoc.

Other that that, they are built like brick outhouses and can take a lot of abusive landings, provided you keep the tail off the deck!

Sweet to fly though. I still miss ours....