Merged: Victorian bushfires

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Just a quick note those of the aviation community flying and supporting the spotters, bombers and choppers who were fighting the fires yesterday.

You guys are truly AMAZING for what you achieved and the conditions under which you performed.

Good luck today and until you can get it cleaned up.

UTR

[The Voice]

To the many people engaged in fighting the devastating fires in Vic and NSW.

The Ops staff, pilots, ground handlers - what a mammoth job.

You guys are legends.

The news footage is obviously not painting the full picture that you're seeing.

Keep up the fight.

[haydos172]

yer here here...great job guys:D

[ReverseFlight]

I remember back in the days when I was doing my CPL(H) navs, my route overflew a lot of the small but beautiful towns and villages in the Kilmore, Yarra Valley and Bunyip park areas. It will be very sad to see it all blackened and it will take years to restore.

Our hearts go out to those who've lost loved ones in this ugly battle.

[Disco Stu]

Sat pix on wiki

File:February 7 Victoria Bushfires - MODIS Aqua cropped.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:February_7_Victoria_Bushfires_-_MODIS_Aqua_cropped.jpg)

[Wally Mk2]

Me takes me hat off to the real heros here, ALL who put their lives on the line for others:ok: What sadens me though is that some lives didn't need to be lost on the ground.
After it's all over we shall go on about living our lives 'till the next time.
I am on 15 acres of dense bush around my home, my fire plan is to get the hell out of here early & let the galant guys save those from themselves.

Thanks guys/girls, for yr outstanding efforts:ok:


Wmk2

[teresa green]

Having lived thru Ash Wed, (living in Mt Macedon at the time), and TAA lost 2 Flight Engineers and one First Officer, in the nightmare that was that day, I sincerely hope that all crew are safe, but knowing that many crew live in rural areas I am sure some will be in trouble and we can only hope that they and their families are ok.

[Carrier]

Are they using any CL215's or CL415's there?

[The Voice]

I worked through and survived Ash Wednesday 1983.

That was bad, but is nothing compared to this event.

Instead of venting on this thread - how about a PM to Konev or the mods to have the post 'tidied up' to reflect the sensitivity of the situation?

Latest toll count 104 - and I'm sure that will not be the last ..

So very very sad. I cried.

TID EDIT "Done"

[emudodo]

No they don't have either down here. It's always struck me as strange that some arrangement couldn't be made between, say Quebec and Victoria to place some of the CL's down here in our summer and return them to Quebec in our winter, such as they do with the Erikson Sky Cranes.
Certainly our water retrieval points are are far less numerous, but hey anything helps on a day like Saturday 7/2/09.

The CFA did some work experimenting with a Herc out of Mangalore some years ago, not sure why nothing came of it as again any ability to deliver retardant to the fire front helps and as the death toll is now 108 ( a at 0730 0n 9/2/09) I'm sure that with more aerial assets this may have been a lot less.

Haven't heard whether any of the deaths have been crew or families but as a previous poster said , with so many residing in rural areas its possible that there will be some involved.

Wherever you are in Australia you nearly all face the problem of bushfires, just not as ferocious as these ones were.

Our prayers go out to all involved, and perhaps those not directly involved can assist with donations of clothing, food, toiletries, anything at all as some have absolutely nothing left. Monetary donations can be made to the Red Cross.

[Disco Stu]

I read in this mornings news that fellow aviator and former Melbourne ch9 newsreader Brian Naylor along with his wife are victims of this awful episode.

[KRviator]

A few years back hen I was in Army Aviation, I remember reeading somewhere that the FAA won't mandate an AD unless it will cost less than the comparable number of lives it will save, and placing a value of $1.8-ish Million Dollars (US) on your average person.

Ie, AD costs $100M to implement, but will save 20 people, no go. But if it will save 50 or more, then it will be mandated. No idea if this is accurate or not, but no matter...

Taking that figure a little further, with over 100 deaths so far, and a CL-415 costing around $35M AUD, I sincerely hope questions are asked as to why we don't have our own fleet of these aircraft.

Use them for SAR in the winter months, or send them to North America and make them pay their way, but for gods sake, we need something like this...

Thankfully we're in NSW and completely safe, but having over 100 people die due to a bloody bushfire isn't good enough anywhere.

[Aerodynamisist]

Saddly we have already lost a fellow aviator in Brian Naylor, a true gentle man.

[werbil]

Sadly, I doubt a CL-415 would do much in conditions like on 7th. In those conditions generally only two things stop going fires - either the fire reaches the sea or the weather changes.

Early spotting and immediate effective attack is about the only way to control fires on those extreme days. In my CFA days I remember being constantly reminded that if you didn't have control of a small fire on an extreme day very smartly it was going to be a major fire very quickly.

The guys on the ground, the SEAT pilots and helo pilots have been doing a tremendous job - however unfortunately once the fires are going there is very little that they can do. Increasing the fleet of that type of aircraft and dispersion to reduce initial attack times would probably be far more effective in Victorian conditions than bringing in large capacity fire bombers like the CL415 and the DC-10.

[tinpis]

I kinda remembered a post in 2007

http://www.pprune.org/d-g-reporting-points/303516-aviation-icon-col-pay-lost-crash-merged-2.html#post3757191

[bushy]

You're right tinny. If we keep doing what we are doing it will happen again, despite all the good work done by the firefighters.

[tinpis]

How many votes bushy, thats the rub?

[ozaggie]

Watched the telly last night and could'nt keep the tears out of my eyes. We sit around waiting for the job that we dont want to do, and when it comes its often too late. The intensity of the fires through the night, when we cant fly, made all aircraft obsolete. I am not suggesting that the Canadair is not an effective aircraft, but with available water sources, not really an option. You can buy a lot of SEAT'S and scatter them all over the country. Anyway, Hats off to the guys both on the ground and in the air who without a doubt saved far more than they actually lost.

[A. Le Rhone]

Surely now there will be the political will at last to get moving on a permanent fixed-wing fleet of high capacity fire-fighting aircraft.

Ideally then on critical days as Saturday was, you would have 2 or 3 airborne aircraft on patrol early over designated trouble zones then able to stamp out any fire quickly before it gets out of control.

The choppers are great (you blokes did such a great damn job) as they can draw water from anywhere but watching the footage, some of the water dispersal in the gusty conditions looked a bit like peeing in the wind. Larger fixed wing aircraft would obviously dump far greater quantities of water/retardant but will need more of a dedicated government strategy to implement.

The CL-415 is great in Canada where water-landings on calm lakes are relatively simple. In Australia we basically only have the ocean and on windy days like Saturday this makes it very difficult for seaplanes to operate (not to mention the distance of the ocean from many of the fires).

Perhaps the ideal situation is to have a series of 2 or 3 existing airports (Mangalore, Sale, Horsham) set up with permanent large water-storage facilities from which large capacity fixed wing aircraft (CL-415's, converted ex-RAAF C130H's?) can simply land, refill and head out again. Evergreen in the US even have a 747 water bomber up and running. With a bit of luck you could be there so early as to dump tons of water on the arsonists who seem to have started these fires.

YouTube - Boeing 747 the water bomber (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfCwChAg6lE)

Col Paye's idea for scooping water was terrific and should be taken further. However it seems what is really needed is a dedicated fleet of Australian-based LARGE CAPACITY fixed wing aircraft. Whilst I would have thought over 100 lives lost would be justification enough, commercially the 3 or 4 airframes could not only be utilized Australia-wide, they could be sent to Europe or North America during their summers in order to offset some/all of the costs associated.

This tragedy can't be allowed to happen again. People will always want to live in the bush and the bush will always burn (particularly with droughts and global warming). The only way to minimise the damage is to have a rapid-response fleet of high capacity fixed-wing aircraft able to move quickly to either stamp out the fires before they get too big or effectively create a sodden barricade along boundaries of threatened communities to protect them from approaching infernos.

In the meantime, thank-you so much to those CFA and chopper crews. Must have been a horrible weekend for you.

[tinpis]

Something like this?
Californias Wild Fire Defence Force..

http://www.wildlandfire.com/pics/air28/hemet-ryan0407seige.jpg

[Walrus 7]

Does anyone remember the Russian's out here a few years ago trying to flog the IL-96 firebomber? Having faced the fire coming over the ridge towards me on Saturday, we sure could have used the IL-96! Elvis and co were doing all they could, but this fire had an energy that no-one thought possible.

Walrus

[tinpis]

Well they lose a few houses and lives in Californy as well, but at least there is an effort made.I wonder what they think when they tune into the news over there?
More influential demographic you suppose? :rolleyes:

[I spy]

I just wanted to say thanks to all the dedicated guys and girls out there, airborne or not, who are giving up their time and dedicating their efforts in this horrific time. You are doing a wonderful job.

Like many here, I too witnessed Ash Wednesday and never believed that I would live to see something worse than that. I’m saddened beyond belief that I have.

I believe that all of Australia will pull together to assist those most in need. If we can raise $12 odd million for a kid’s hospital, I’m sure we can do just as well for these people, many of whom have lost absolutely everything. :{

Burn at the stake anyone found guilty of lighting these fires. I will personally volunteer to light the wick under their sorry asses.

Just pass me the match………….

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Just a question,

Conservation and Land Management (CALM) in WA used to have
'flying spotters' in the bushfire 'season' over here.

With Piper Super Cubs and the like based in the country/forest areas, at least they were able to provide a 'timely' warning at the first sign of smoke.

Does the Vic. Govt or NSW Govt have a similar service??

As 'Werbil' said, 'early spotting and immediate attack' before they develop seems to be 'an' answer.

Regards.

[tinpis]

With the greatest respect Mr Griffo I doubt there is a shortage of eyes looking out airyplane windows at any given time in Victoria, and connected by wireless to help .
Firespotting is for large remote tracts like yer Canady has

[QFinsider]

There were plenty of eyes out the window all day between YMML and YSSY...
The company even asked pilots to report a fire...:(

[Pinky the pilot]

Fellow Ppruners should spare a thought and a prayer for an esteemed member of Pprune who is right in the thick of it!

Well done Buster Hyman and please take care of yourself!:ok:

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

My deepest sympathies go out to all of those affected by the latest round of tragic bushfires. They are already talking royal commissions, and my only hope is that the wisdom that will no doubt come from the inquiry using a range of well qualified people, is implemented to it's fullest extent. For too long we have tragedies like this occur, then talkfests that come up with sound logical plans only to be left in the too costly/too hard basket.

Please use the memory of this to ensure it doesn't happen as badly next time.

Oh and thankyou to all those who risk their lives to help others fixed/rotary/ground. The word heroes gets used a lot these days, but for some people there can be no argument.

[Rodda]

I fly out of the Valley, and yes we have plenty of spotter machines up all equiped with CFA or DSE radios and observers. Each having there own role ie. plantation, or asset or forestry. We try to catch em early and stomp em out with the bombers and helitacks. Saturday was an extreem day. Not much you can do about that, just try to protect assets as much as possible

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

I thought I should make a mention of the crews who have been working tirelessly in the air to secure Northern Victoria's safety. I watched a sky crane yesterday through thick smoke performing what can only be described as nearly impossible and extremely brave.

These air attack crews do an often unsung job in hellish conditions. All the time for others.

We could all learn something from their actions.

Thanks from those in yellow on the ground.

DM

[Jet_A_Knight]

Here, here.:ok:

To all those in the air and on the ground - thanks:ok::ok:

[Dash L8]

Thanks doesn't seem enough for all those putting themselves on the line. Having lived in a forested area as a kid I can understand the fear of a fire... can't imagine what everyone is going through.

For anyone wanting to do SOMETHING to help, if you can't manage money or blood, Coles supermarkets nation wide are donating proceeds from all sales this Friday 13th Feb to bushfire relief funds. Hold off on the food shopping til then and we can all make a difference- they're aiming for 10 mil but I reckon they'll get a lot more than that hopefully!

Coles Supermarkets Australia (http://www.coles.com.au) Click on 'Bushfire' button lower right

[chimbu warrior]

A great pity that former leaders and legislators did not see the potential of converting the ex-RAN Trackers to the fire-fighting role. They were unfortunately left to rot, although I understand that some were eventually sold and are now stored at Sale.

CL-215's and 415's are not appropriate in Australia where we lack the ready water supply that large freshwater lakes in North America offer. Likewise DC-10's or B-747's would be restricted to capital city airports.

A fleet of Trackers, perhaps some Convair 580's and strategically located Air Tractor 802's are the best option. The NSCA pioneered the use of North American firebombing aircraft in the southern summer, when they would otherwise sit idle, but unfortunately this plan lost momentum with the demise of the NSCA.

Whilst the Skycranes make for good TV news, they are not suited to large scale fires. Helicopters do an excellent job of delivering very accurate drops on small scale fires in narrow valleys or close to houses, but lack the speed and payload to effectively control the type of fires we are seeing in Victoria at the moment.

Likewise water is not the only answer. In the extreme heat that Victoria has recently experienced, re-ignition is a problem when water alone is used to fight fires.

Hopefully the forthcoming inquiry into this terrible disaster will see this issue revisited, and both state and federal governments will investigate some of the options suggested above.

My thoughts and prayers are with all those affected by this tragedy.

[VH-XXX]

It is the unfortunate reality that probably even 100 Elvis's or fixed wing aircraft wouldn't have stopped these fires.

At one point in suburbia a small grass fire wiped out 5 houses in 10 minutes. The wind and temperature had to be seen to be believed.

What capability would such aircraft have at night? The same as day? as in these fires the majority of the damage was done at night, or if it wasn't at night, it was completely dark due to the smoke.

At one stage I was down in Sale and it was pitch black at 3pm in the afternoon, completely stopping any aircraft movements and Sale was at-least 50-60 kms from the fire-front.

At another airfield the cropdusting aircraft had to be grounded due to the extreme turbulence due to the 40+ knot winds in the 46 degree temperatures.

Nasty, nasty stuff.

[Walrus 7]

I wonder if there is really a firebombing system in the world that would have had any effect at all on Saturday. The energy and the fury cannot be described either by those that were in it, or those that saw it. Maybe the Beriev seaplanes might have had some impact. Anything short of that I really don't know.

Walrus

[A. Le Rhone]

IMHO, modified C130's/Caribous/Buffalos or similar aircraft would be the ideal size - big enough to be effective with significant retardent drops yet not unweildy like a 747. The current fleet of small-scale fixed-wing and rotary aircraft should also be expanded under a co-ordinated central agency. The picture posted on the previous page shows how brilliantly the Americans do it, and in California they have similar landscape and vegetation to us. Surely this loss of life is incentive enough for us to finally get our act together with a cohesive and disciplined agency to oversee aerial firefighting on a much larger scale.

The fleet of say 5 aircraft could easily be based at 3 or 4 strategic locations statewide (say Mangalore, Sale and Horsham in Vic -Richmond, Cessnock and Canberra in NSW and Renmark and Edinburgh in SA). These are underutilised airports with good existing infrastructure, yet close enough to population bases and volunteers and seemily close to where the fires always occur.

These bases could easily have large capacity reserviours filled from nearby waterways, potentially with the inclusion of chemical dispersal agents and retardents. The aircraft simply lands, plugs in and is off again in minutes. It seems the only way to tackle such problematic outbreaks before they become uncontrollable infernos.

In these times where governments realise the need for social spending to stimulate the economy, surely this would be the most worthy of causes. If money is ever quoted by fiscal naysayers as an issue (and these people will pop up), then send the fleet overseas during our winter to recruit some $. However, I would have thought with a death toll approaching 200 that would be incentive enough.

[teresa green]

Sadly a young JQ First Officer has lost the lot. He saved wife, kids and pets but has lost his house, car, his log books , and all personal items wedding photos etc , just left with what he is standing up in. So dig deep guys, I am sure Jetstar crew and ground staff will do as much as they can to support him and family, just another tragedy as it all unfolds, but pretty certain we are going to hear more bad news regards airline crew, but am hoping not.

[Chu Mai Huang]

5000 or so now homeless in Victoria.
There are dozens of vacant houses at RAAF Williams (Point Cook), plus all the accommodation blocks, and no doubt kitchens, dining halls, laundries, etc - and all going to waste, EMPTY.
How can we get the government to open these up NOW?

[werbil]

I doubt there is a shortage of eyes looking out airyplane windows at any given time in Victoria, and connected by wireless to help


One of the problems with reporting though the aviation comms system is the time that it takes the message to reach the brigades that deal with it. I'm sure the situation has improved dramatically now, but back in the mid 90's I reported one fire in summer on the beginning of a scenic flight that was in my local brigade area. I continued on the flight, landing about half an hour later. As I walked the guests back into the office my pager went off - first page for that fire from my call. After that experience I always used the mobile when I could.

Specific locations are critical - I also remember one fire report from an airliner on approach into ML. The location - somewhere in the Grampians - an area 100km long by 50km wide.

On bad days CFA/DSE put up aircraft on patrol to spot fires that have just started, in addition to their tower network.

[bellsux]

Why not the Trackers???

1. almost same water capacity as the air tractor
2. obsolete design with no support
3. cost per litre of water dropped
4. how much work would be required to certify after 20+ years on the ground
5. turn around time drop to reload
6. landing areas, is it able to use dirt strips?

[topendtorque]

Looked for a thread on the commission activities and found nought.
here is just one story today which needs to be treated with dismay.

i guess anyone who wants to petition the commission to appear should try to do so if they have some constructive comments.
CFA lawyers object to criticism of fire chief

By Jane Cowan
Posted 10 hours 30 minutes ago
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r370106_1717202.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r370106_1717207.jpg)Russell Rees believes the CFA met its obligations to warn the community on Black Saturday. (AAP: John Woudstra, The Age/Pool)


The legal team for Victoria's Country Fire Authority (CFA) has objected to the way the fire chief, Russell Rees has been questioned at the Royal Commission into the Black Saturday bushfires.
The CFA's chief officer has now been in the witness box for three consecutive days.
The legal counsel representing the CFA, Neil Clelland SC told the hearing there had been implied and express criticism of both Mr Rees and the CFA without any opportunity to respond.
Mr Clelland objected to the manner in which the counsel assisting the commission, Jack Rush QC has questioned the fire chief.
Mr Clelland said the Royal Commission's purpose was not supposed to be to blame anyone but that the questioning of Mr Rees was inconsistent with that stated purpose.
The commission chairman Bernard Teague allowed the questioning to proceed.
Earlier today, Mr Rees told the hearing he believes the CFA met its obligations to warn the community on Black Saturday.
Mr Rees had previously admitted there were "system failures" that meant warnings to the public were less than ideal on February the 7th.
But this morning, Mr Rees said he believed the fire agencies had "tried their hardest" to meet their obligations to warn people.
Under questioning by Mr Clelland, the fire chief went further and said the fire agencies did more than try, they succeeded.
Mr Rees said he was the type of person who always tried to do better, but he did believe the fire agencies had successfully warned the community about all fires except the Kilmore East blaze.
The commission was told Black Saturday could have been a lot worse if it was not for the efforts of the CFA.
The CFA's legal team said fire agencies were successful in suppressing many of the bushfires.
Mr Rees said a fire that broke out at Upper Ferntree Gully at the base of the Dandenongs, for instance, could have been disastrous if firefighters had not managed to put it out.
The Black Saturday bushfires killed 173 people and left thousands more homeless.
The commission has three months to deliver its interim report.

[Flying Binghi]

Why didn't old Melbourne town burn during the 1851 fires ?

Most buildings in 1851 Melbourne had wood shingle roofs that used to catch fire fairly regularly even with out bush fires. During the great fire of 1851, Melbourne residents were terrified by the wall of flame bearing down on them....why did old Melbourne town survive ???

Via Our Antipodes, (Mundie, 1852) pg 597, we find a comment about Melbourne just one month before the 1851 big fire;
20/01/1851; Melbourne is a well-laid-out ugly town, containing about 20,000 inhabitants. The adjacent country, visible from the highest look-out, is but poorly sprinkled with trees, and is, at present, herb less to a degree that i never saw elsewhere, even in New South Wales...

The reason methinks why old Melbourne didn't burn in the big fire of 1851 were the large fire break all round the town.

And lessons for today's bush towns.....:hmm:

[Flying Binghi]

"Debate on climate change in Australia is small-minded and a repeat of the Victorian bush fires is possible if global temperatures do not ease, climate change expert Tim Flannery says".

Sky News: Climate change debate limited - Flannery (http://www.skynews.com.au/business/article.aspx?id=344201)

Soooo, ...the 1851 fire never happened eh...:hmm:

[mickjoebill]

Here is a link to a Video of the attempted rescue by winch of residents in path of the Feb 7th bushfire.

[URL="http://media.theage.com.au/national/national-news/bushfire-rescue-701259.html?"]

The lady of the house testified in the Royal Commission and says that media helicopter thought that the household was in path of fire and so hailed a passing police helicopter who lowered a crew member to investigate.
But the Lady of the house preferred to stay with her animals and friends and then the police heli was forced to move off as the fire approached.
Crew member stayed on the ground to supervise the evacuation.

All the residents then drove their way out with police and media in tow.
Through a freak wind change the house survived.

Given the conditions the hover is very stable:ok:

Mickjoebill

[Flying Binghi]

.

Via Our Antipodes, (Mundie, 1852) pg 597, we find a comment about Melbourne just one month before the 1851 big fire;
20/01/1851; Melbourne is a well-laid-out ugly town, containing about 20,000 inhabitants. The adjacent country, visible from the highest look-out, is but poorly sprinkled with trees, and is, at present, herb less to a degree that i never saw elsewhere, even in New South Wales...

The reason methinks why old Melbourne didn't burn in the big fire of 1851 were the large fire break all round the town.

And lessons for today's bush towns....


" THE Victorian Bushfires Royal Commission’s final report last weekend is the whitewash nobody even noticed.

For a whitewash, that’s as good as you can get... "

Column - Why were the Black Saturday guilty not named? | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_why_were_the_black_saturday_guilty_not_named/)






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