GAAP Phraseology Q

[das Uber Soldat]

I've had a search but couldn't locate an answer for what may unfortunately be a rather stupid question. :}

At a GAAP, the example I use being Bankstown, do we need to say "requesting airways clearance" when seeking a clearance into adjacent class C when VFR (or even IFR)? EDIT: To clarify, I wish to ask for an airways clearance into SY Class C, but what exactly is the radio call you make?

I refer to ENR 1.1.36 GAAP Phraseology
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com.au/publications/current/aip/enr/1_1_1-116.pdf

Circumstances Phraseologies
* Denotes pilot transmission

1. TAXI PROCEDURES
when either ready to taxi or taxiing prior to entering the manoeuvring area in accordance with para 29.4.

a.* (ATS unit) GROUND (aircraft type) (aircraft call-sign) [(number) POB (if IFR other than RPT)] RECEIVED (ATIS identification) [aircraft location] (flight rules, if IFR) TO [or FOR] (details) RUNWAY (number) [LEFT (or RIGHT)]

Now this may not specifically refer to getting a clearance into adjacent class C airspace and I understand that, however; 29.4 states that ;

A taxi call must be made by:
a. IFR flights;
b. VFR flights departing into adjacent controlled airspace; and
c. pilots requesting special operations; eg, crosswind training or
operations specified in para 23.2.

Hence is it logical to assume that the taxi call phraseology stated above applies to VFR aircraft departing into adjacent class C and therefore the words 'requesting airways clearance' are not required in the clearance call itself?

Cheers :ok:

[SM227]

Normaly its a squwak code on the ground and then a clearance after take off as you are departing the GAAP zone for a VFR departure, you only get an actual clearance when departing in IMC from a GAAP. Is this right?
I dont think you need to actualy request ''Clearance'' or ''code'' it in your radio call as believe ATC know what you need from your flight plan. :confused:

Im sure someone can confirm.....

[muffman]

ERSA states:
Airways clearance requests to enter SY CTR must be made on BANKSTOWN GROUND 119.9 during hours of activation of BK TWR

This would suggest to me that you do need to specifically request airways clearance. It is also possible to depart IFR OCTA, in which case you are still required to make a taxi call for the purpose of initiating SAR. So without the "request airways clearance" the controller may be unsure what you would like to do.

[das Uber Soldat]

Oops, my mistake. To clarify myself, I want to ask for an airways clearance from BK GND, its the actual phraseology of that clearance call that I'm unsure of.

When you make your clearance request, do you need to append the actual words 'requesting airways clearance' to the end of your call?

The example shown in the regs posted above seems to give a format more like this;

E.g. "Bankstown Ground, Cessna ABC, Recieved Alpha, Whiskey 2, for Cessnock, runway 11 left".

And that is it, so it seems? No "requesting airways" on the end?

[Icarus53]

You are requesting a clearance, so you must use the phrase "request clearance" at the end of the transmission. "Request airways" is frequently used but not strictly speaking correct.:ok:

[Kickatinalong]

DUS
You wish to leave YSBK's airspace and travel into CTA above YSBK you must request it in 119.9 .
What else do you want to know?
Kickatinalong

[bentleg]

its the actual phraseology of that clearance call that I'm unsure of.

I would say -

"Bankstown Ground, Cessna XXX taxiing VFR for "destination", 2 POB, request airways clerance, received alpha".

That tells them where you want to go and that you want an airways clearance. That will get them hunting for your flight plan in the system. I wouldn't worry about the runway you are taxi-ing to as that is covered in ATIS and you are saying you have received ATIS.

[das Uber Soldat]

I agree that's the logical choice.

What I'm after though is the letter of the regs. The regs don't seem to indicate that this is the 'correct' call. The background with all this is that I'm teaching students and I'm a stickler for the rules.

I'd like a definitive answer to the question such that I can reference for the students, an AIP reference if possible. What I've found so far seems to conflict with that I regard as common sense. I.e, I want an airways clearance, however I dont actually use those words.

Anyway thanks for the input so far.

[Pilotette]

This is the way I was taught to do it:
Taxi Call: "Bankstown Ground, ABC Cessna, Received Charlie, Taxiing VFR for 'Destination' via 'departure point', runway 11L."

Run-up Bay: "ABC Request Airways Clearance"

I think you do actually have to request the clearance..although after the Taxi call they may just issue you with the clearance anyway as they know that's ultimately what you want.

[bentleg]

This is the way I was taught to do it:
Taxi Call: "Bankstown Ground, ABC Cessna, Received Charlie, Taxiing VFR for 'Destination' via 'departure point', runway 11L."

Run-up Bay: "ABC Request Airways Clearance"


Yep. The reason I put a request in the initial call was because a VFR aircraft doesn't have to call Ground at all at BK. Asking for a clearance tells Ground why you are calling. You will probably get a transponder code initially. You won't get the actual clearance until you are ready to roll in the runup bay.

We have ATCers on PPrune. What do they say?

[ReverseFlight]

At MB, an IFR taxi clearance is just a taxi clearance. You wouldn't ask for an airways clearance until the run-bays, which goes "XYZ, request clearance". ATC will have your flight plan through NAIPS and often says "will have it ready for you at the holding point". In most cases such clearance comes through while you're taxiing towards the holding point anyway, along with your squawk code.

[Hugh Jarse]

"Airways" was dropped from phraseology some time ago. You now only need to "REQUEST CLEARANCE"".

DAS, the only guidance you'll find is in ERSA for BK local procedures (unless there's some special arrangement between local operators and BK ATC). There doesn't appear to be any hard and fast rule of "when" to request clearance-only that you should call ready in the runup bay. That would probably be an appropriate time to obtain your clearance.

I suspect a scenario might go something like this (but stand to be corrected):

Regardless of whether you're VFR or IFR, if your flight is going to be subject to a clearance, you report taxi to SMC (with VFR details if not on a plan). I'd imagine (do they still have a COORD in the TWR?) this would set the wheels in motion for BK ATC to coordinate your clearance with SY, for when you "REQUEST CLEARANCE". They would most likely have it for you by the time you complete your taxi and runups (if needed).

There's not much in Jepp to provide guidance on this topic. As with most things, just use commonsense.

With regard to your students - guidance should be forthcoming from your CFI and the flying school's document suite. As long as you follow that consistently, you should be fine.

[Pilotette]

Hugh..My mistake, you are correct in saying "airways" has been dropped :ok:

[Hugh Jarse]

No worries Pilotette. It's good to see that there's still an "unofficial" line of communication between BK ATC and the local operators. When I was there it was called "SAY AGAIN?!" It was a bit of a pre-internet version of PPRuNE, containing bastardised names of prominent instructors (but we all knew who they were) along with their "misadventures" and other rumours around the airport. Bloody hilarious reading.:} As well it had useful info on how the local procedures worked.

Who can forget the adventures of "Elise HoldenPork" and "A.R Sole" :} Elise is now a QF capt.

[capt_akun]

you actually don't have to say VFR?! I thought it was presumed you are VFR, unless you say IFR in your request.

For a VFR, it's just

"Bankstown ground, XXX cherokee, taxing for canberra, 2 POB, recieved charlie, rwy 11 request clearance"

[das Uber Soldat]

I don't think you need to say POB either.

POB (if IFR other than RPT)]

So only if you're non RPT IFR. And I still can't see where it says you need to say the words 'requesting clearance'.

I honestly don't think its required as the only aircraft that are calling on SMC at a GAAP are the ones requesting a clearance. Otherwise why are you making this call?

Until someone can link me to a reg that specifies clearly that I have to say these words, the only reference I can give to a student such that they can look it up is that specifically mentioned in the AIP, which makes very specific reference to phraseology in the GAAP.

[capt_akun]

yeh. usually POB is out.

But i think it's a bankstown thing....

[muffman]

the only aircraft that are calling on SMC at a GAAP are the ones requesting a clearance. Otherwise why are you making this call?

To be correct, the only VFR aircraft calling SMC at a GAAP are requesting a clearance. All IFR aircraft must call, regardless of whether they require a clearance into adjacent class C.

I understand your point and why you're making it. The specific phraseologies for GAAP don't specify the need to say 'request clearance'.

The introduction to the GAAP phraseology section says:
A comprehensive list of radiotelephony phrases is contained in GEN 3.4, Sections 4. and 5. for use within Australian airspaceincluding GAAP CTR.

This would suggest you need to consider the requirements of GEN3.4 sections 4 and 5 in addition to the specific GAAP requirements.

GEN3.4 5.10 applies generally to clearances and says the pilot phraseology is "request clearance".

So while it's a long way around, I would take that to mean any time we need a clearance, we just have to say "request clearance" in addition to anything else required specifically by the type of airspace we're in. This passes the common sense test and also the philosophy that you shouldn't be backwards in coming forward about what you want on the radio.

So when I fly out of BK and need an airways, I'll continue to give the taxi call with "request clearance". :ok:

[das Uber Soldat]

Thank you Muffman, that's the kind of thing I was after :)