new undies please

[Nigd3]

Sounds like a brown trouser moment for all involved

Learjet pilot praised after low-level evasion averts A109 mid-air (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/02/05/322173/learjet-pilot-praised-after-low-level-evasion-averts-a109.html)


Interesting to see it makes a point about the Learjets paint scheme being dark grey.

[airborne_artist]

Interesting to see it makes a point about the Learjets paint scheme being dark grey.

But that's only part of the story - if the 109 pilot had fully understood the "instruction to 'pass behind' the traffic 'rolling off' runway 10" he would have had the information he needed. Hard to see the full picture from that short report, but I don't think the ATC instruction was as clear as it could/should have been.

"After receiving a controller's instruction to 'pass behind' the traffic 'rolling off' runway 10, the helicopter pilot misidentified the aircraft to which the controller was referring, believing he meant a Boeing 737 (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/boeing%20737.html) taxiing for departure."

[Nigd3]

a_a

I agree in that the tower message was a little unclear. Then there's also the next hole in the Swiss cheese, that if the A109 pilot had heard the Lear cleared for take-off, presuming he was on frequency, maybe he would have proceeded with more caution, or asked for clarification.

Luckily the last hole didnt line up and the Lear pilot saw the A109.

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ....

TCAS perhaps???


:eek:

[Darkhorse30]

I think the owner of the Lear should consider a new paint job, perhaps white!

[SASless]

I don't think the ATC instruction was as clear as it could/should have been.


A bit of British Understatement if I ever heard it!

When ever did you describe a "departing" or "Learjet departing" or even "traffic on the runway" as "rolling OFF the runway"?

That being said.....when crossing down range of a place where speeding bullets fly.....it behooves one to keep a sharp eye out the window. There is no excuse for not seeing an aircraft taking off from a runway no matter the color or size even in the dark.....as they do have lights on.

Is that not why crossing at mid-field is usually the best practice?

You pass over them fixed wingers while they are still ground bound as they launch or land. It sure cuts down on the possibility of meeting one in the worst way.

[GoodGrief]

If in doubt, ask for clarification, money for one more orbit is well spent.

[airborne_artist]

The 109 pilot could have a) queried the ATC instruction and b) if still not happy, stopped/slowed to a crawl. It's easy to forget that the earth continues to repel helos even when they have zero groundspeed :ok:

[FH1100 Pilot]

The 109 is a speedy little scooter and may very well have come up on the Tower freq *after* the Lear had been cleared for takeoff (that is, if the Irish are in the habit of clearing you for takeoff before you actually get into "position"- as happens frequently here in the U.S.). So there might be a time lag there.

Nevertheless, if the 109 pilot assumed that Tower meant the 737 taxiing out, then he certainly violated that portion of his clearance by proceding across the runway in front of said traffic. So they evidently weren't paying attention.

TCAS might *not* have helped here because the Lear pilots may have waited until they were actually on the runway before switching their transponder on.

But let's not forget about the Lear! Do they not have a responsibility to *look* and make sure their departure path is clear? Did neither of them look out the windscreen and happen to see a sparkly thingee approaching the runway from off-side? And...even if they'd already been cleared for takeoff, didn't *they* hear the Tower clear the 109 to cross behind them?

Just how busy *is* Dublin Tower, anyway? Curious, I punched up liveatc.net and listened in today at around 1900 local Dublin time. Eh- wasn't all that busy on a clear Friday night.

These things happen - they shouldn't but they do. They're embarassing. And they're the reason we all must be vigilant 110% of the time, especially when operating around airports.

Parenthetically, in New York the controllers always used took us over the approach end of the runways we were crossing. Seemed like a practical idea. I've been surprised in other cities when Tower has cleared me to cross an active runway "wherever." When I've suggested whether they wanted me over the numbers or not, they didn't seem to care at all. Like New Orleans, for instance. Very laid-back there.

[Rotorhead412]

In regards to the above, 'just how busy is dublin tower anyway'.

Aside from how busy it is, maybe if they 'relaxed' a bit, it may help issues!

Ok, it's not all of the controllers, but there is 1 possibly 2 up there that are always really 'on the edge', as if they're always bogged down and i find they just simply don't want to hear about rotary a/c within there zone!

Anyone else ever get this? :(

[Phil77]

Phraseology: easy to misunderstand. Like mentioned earlier: why not use "departing" or "taking off"? Here in my neck of the woods they sometimes use "...behind traffic on the roll off runway XY". I think I would have probably interpreted "rolling off" as (a just landed) aircraft exiting the runway (although it would raise a question why the 737 was facing towards the end of the runway - respectively the hold short line - when it supposedly just exited the runway?).

FH1100: I respectfully disagree (of course not on the "not paying attention"-part ;)):
If the 737 was taxiing towards the runway for departure, he was facing the opposite heading than the runway, so he would have passed "behind" that traffic by crossing over the departure end. HOWEVER looking at the airport layout its hard to imagine what the helicopter pilot intended to do - land on the ramp or cross midfield? If he intended to land or was just following the M1 motor-way, he was pretty much "behind" every aircraft on that airport ;).

Also the TCAS issue: I stand corrected, but even if the Lear's transponder was switched to On or Alt, I assume most transponders are interrupted by a squat switch in the landing gear anyway?

[Phil77]

...and one more thing about midfield crossing: have you seen a fairly light Learjet taking off? On a long runway he probably can be at 1,000 ft AGL halfway down the runway if he feels like it! :cool:

[FH1100 Pilot]

Phil, it comes down to language, no? What does "traffic rolling off the runway" mean? Taking off from the runway, or just landed and is rolling off the runway? Is that a phrase they routinely use in Ireland? (My guess? The 109 pilot thought it was the latter - that an aircraft had landed - and he was looking for an airplane to his right rather than from his left. Why he didn't seek clarification from the controller further is a good question.)

Wouldn't it have been better to say "Pass behind traffic rolling on runway 28...?" Sounds like the controller was using confusing and perhaps non-standard phraseology.

But even if you are correct that the 109 pilots decided to pass behind a big jet that was facing away from them, it surely must have been apparent that said jet was not "rolling off" the runway. He wasn't on the runway at all! Helloooooo, 109 pilot(s)! Heads up, please!

I'm on record as being 110% against mid-field crossings of any kind. I don't like 'em. Mid-field, even at 1,000 feet is no place for *any* aircraft, much less a helicopter. I know it is an accepted practice in Canadia - I don't care. I've had my close-calls. Never again!

[Shawn Coyle]

Standardized language - now that would be nice. Even though we're supposed to have standard language within the aviation community, it's surprising that the countries that appear to be the worst at not adhering to it are those that have English (or a close derivative of it) as their native language...

[Phil77]

FH:
agreed to everything you said.

Midfield crossing: FWIW, if you need to cross an airfield while traffic is landing underneath I suggest to cross over the numbers (of the active runway that is) at a decent height, like they do in Newark (KEWR). Seems to be the safest way - the separation issue there is not between the airlines and VFR traffic, I had a S76 coming at me one night, I saw him, but didn't get a heads up from the tower until he had already passed less than 500 ft underneath me - assigned altitudes or not, a little mishap on either side and both are toast.

[chuks]

One point that is worth considering is how often aircraft seem to be painted to look nice rather than to be visible. You know, in Germany all taxis are painted the same "light ivory" colour because it is supposedly the most visible, even better than pure white. Yet most people until recently seemed to like their vehicles in various shades of black!

Then you notice many large fixed-wing aircraft with these "Tell-Tail" lights aimed at a vertical fin painted in some dark colour instead of something light and easy to spot. Check out USAir for instance in the pictures of their new floatplane.

We were once departing the NAF Base, Port Harcourt, Nigeria in a Dornier 328, a speedy little bird that gets up to 250 knots in very little time. Just after take-off my co-pilot called "Traffic at 2 o'clock," which proved to be a Bell 212 maintaining about one thousand feet.

My helo colleague had not bothered to call the NAF Base Tower because he thought he knew that this time of day was a quiet one. Yes, well, it usually was but we had been asked to fly then for some reason or other...

We passed just below and behind him, using that basic principle that traffic that is changing its relative position is not something you are going to collide with. There really wasn't much choice, since we were not supposed to climb above one thousand feet until we were in contact with Port Harcourt Approach, although, yes, I suppose I could have passed further astern if I had felt like doing that. (As it was, I had the right of way as the aircraft at a lower altitude but I certainly wasn't going to use that to do anything silly. One mid-air can ruin your entire day.)

Of course the very next time I visited House One I checked on whether a certain man had had anything to say on a certain evening. Yes, as a matter of fact, my spies reported to me, he told everyone that he had noticed this relatively large white airplane suddenly appear at his 5 o'clock doing 250 knots (when he must have said something like, "My goodness gracious!" or words to that effect), before having a bit more than usual to drink! After that I think he always made that traffic call, just in case.

[dragman]

Aircraft colour, non-standard phrase-ology, type confusion... Sorry, I can't accept any of the above excuses. Maybe a student in a 22, but for a 109 pilot - na, sorry. If you're flying a 109, then you've been around long enough to recognise a 737 from a learjet. You've also been around long enough to understand, and have used, non-standard radio terms. As for colour - come on! Against a mountain or forest, maybe, but on a runway?

[Nigd3]

Dragman

I dont believe the tower specifically told the A109 pilot that it was a lear that was "rolling off the runway", the A109 pilot mistakenly thought it was the 737 that the tower were referring to.

As for the colour, a dark grey aircraft in lowering light conditions lined up on a presumably dark runway could be relatively easy to miss, especially if you are looking at a nice big 737, that you have just assumed is the one lining up for takeoff.