Is orange smoke visible under FLIR?

[no sig]

Sailing pals and I were debating whether an orange smoke used at night would be visible under FLIR to a SAR helio? and therefore something, in absence of a night flare, would be worth a try. Appreciate any SAR crews experience on this one.

[Flap62]

As flir broadly senses tepmerature profile, the end of the smoke flare itself would show up but the smoke itself would quite quickly cool to ambient temp and therefore not show up particularly well. There are smokes which use cunning magical properties to mask from IR sensors but I doubt that the regular marine smoke flare would have this.

[Miraz]

I've always trained my crew to use a strobe light for signalling at night - I get them to carry decent water proof strobes attached to a lanyard at night.

I had the misfortune to have a man overboard in a storm a few years ago, the guy did as he was told and fired up the strobe, then let it sink down away on it's lanyard - once the strobe is down about 10 feet it lights up a big block of water all around them which made location really easy....recovery in a heavy sea is a another story....

Probably doesn't show on FLIR, but works a charm with a naked eye

[Double Zero]

The lesson, as always, is 'stay with the boat' - even if hanging on to an upturned hull, it's much easier to see.

If she's gone, I've always planned to use the harness lines - which are combined with lifejackets, spume visors & lights - to clip everyone together, preventing becoming separated & losing people.

I only have a 1 person liferaft, strangely similar to those found in ejection seats, but at least it's something to hang onto / arm wrestle for- I usually only sail with 1 other person anyway.

Obviously a grab-bag including a big torch is worthwhile, and if you're sure the boat is a lost cause, ( easy to think when in dire straits ) if possible setting fire to it might help, though how to do that safely in bad weather is another matter...

My seat liferaft doesn't mean there's anyone flying around sitting on nothing, it was 'scrap' for some reason, though tested OK, and given me by the seat bay. I thought it was in return for a favour I did them, or maybe they just wanted to see the back of me - could have been I'd corrected them on their spelling, but I doubt it !

There's not much of an excuse for not having decent flares to hand * and of course helo's don't really appreciate a rocket or parachute flare straight into the open door...

* There is / was a warning out in the UK after a Pains Wessex white ( collision warning of course ) hand flare, being demonstrated by a yachtmaster instructor who'd done everything right, fired out of the base instead of the top, filling his gut with burning phosphorous.

He spent weeks in intensive care, only just made it and is now partially disabled - if in any doubt check the Pains Wessex website, or PM me, as I had a few of the same model !

[Double Zero]

EOSM37,

You clearly don't sail or get the idea, and I am insulted by your suggestion I would use the PSP dinghy myself rather than anyone sailing with me - a very cheap, unworthy shot.

I have the seat dinghy as something to hang onto, in case of a really quick sinking.

I'd worked closely with the seat bay and knew them well, which is how I ended up with a perfectly good PSP dinghy - I certainly wouldn't use it myself and let crew hang on ( except for the odd crew member in the past ) - it's something larger to hang on to than the man overboard life horseshoe, and in that case something to put casualties into.

I also have the best lifejacket / harnesses available - in normal sailing, even when racing, the harness is much more important, as going over the side is a big no-no; my boat has been featured in the two largest selling yachtie magazines in the UK, and is well supplied with harness points.

I also have a 4-man inflatable Zodiac, with an electric high speed inflator & foot pump - the seat dinghy is very much a last resort.

'Proper' liferafts start at £500 for frankly a piece of rubbish with no insulated floor or light, are heavy, and one never gets to see if it's OK when 'serviced' for £100 every 3 years - there are common tales of people going to use liferafts, then finding the last servicing bay have helped themselves to the contents.

As I only sail across the Channel to Brittany / Channel Islands, I have the Zodiac on deck half-inflated as a standby.

If & when I go further ( only been sailing since 1974, yachtmaster offshore ) I'll have a decent liferaft, with an insulated floor for a start, and the R.O.R.C. pack I always carry and update.

I'm regularly taken the P' out of for being safety concious - you're welcome to come and inspect my boat any time, after March would be best as she's stripped out ashore right now.

You might even come for a sail, unless you're too frightened by what you find. Google 'Anderson 22 class'.

[Pontius Navigator]

I don't know which orange smoke you use but it was possible with the signal distress, day/night to get a flame instead of smoke.

IIRC we were shown at SCSR that the smoke end could be ignited with a waterproof match. It was not as reliable as the night flare but 100% better than smoke at night.

[no sig]

Thanks to you all for the insight. We see the wonders of FLIR in SAR use on the telly so much these days, it was a point of curiosity. I of course carry ample flares as well as strobes- Miraz the point about the strobe underwater was particularly interesting.

[Double Zero]

If you have money to spare, or I'd regard essential in a trans-ocean race / voyage, there are systems available for man overboard which involve a personal locator beacon worn by everyone, and a direction finder on the boat.

As I said before, the priority is not letting people fall off the boat; if it REALLY sinks, clip onto each other, use whatever dinghies / liferafts available, and use an EPIRB...

A lot of people, in the 1979 Fastnet disaster for instance, were so frightened they abandoned their boats and took to liferafts too soon - understandable after being through hell, but the liferafts broke up, and the floating yachts were recovered...

'Don't get into a liferaft unless you have to step up into it ' !

[Charlie Luncher]

For night time ops most FLIR systems have a near IR field of view which is sort of a low light camera and is used to supplement the IR feed. Smokes are visible on IR as they generate heat to create the smoke but is a very small to pick out.
White lights are good and strobes are excellent by night, mirrors/heliographs are very good on a sunny day. Epirbs allow me to locate you from height and range as is the advice to step up to your raft as RADAR will locate your boat better than your floating head:sad:
Charlie sends

[Double Zero]

Actually Sid,

her name is Anne, and any golden rivets would be a distinct worry in a fibreglass boat ( yes I do know what you mean ).

I'm aware radar will find the boat, as many years ago, before NVG's were mentioned publicly, we were approached at night by a Lynx ( recognised the sound ) off Torbay - he didn't have any lights at all, and we were only turning our masthead / nav' lights on whenever anything came close, as the boat then had a total loss electrical system.

The boat now has plenty of power, and radar of her own.

If I do enlist a 'Roger', I'll set up a bike-powered dynamo to make him useful.

[no sig]

Charlie Luncher, at what sort of range have you found strobes to be detecable at night?

[Double Zero]

Shirley the range of strobes depends on what the strobe is, and the weather conditions ?

Strobes are technically illegal and / or unrecognised as UK maritime lights, but the Australians swear by them including masthead mounted, and most serious yachties will carry anything which might get attention.

We're still seeking a decent radar reflector, I have a couple ( traditional octahedron as used by MOD target rafts ) and a more modern cylindrical job.

There was a radar warning receiver with a display exactly the same as Harrier pilots are used to, but the company bit the dust.

Transponders are available now, but a bit power-hungry, and experience shows there's no guarantee there'll even be anyone on the bridge of a ship to see it ! I've seen small ships go past myself with both wheelhouse doors open, and nobody there.

Pointing a bloody big searchlight at the bridge of apparently sleepy large ships, then on one's own white sails, has worked well in my experience - that was before VHF was common on small boats, but therefore also before Decca then GPS, so the time taken to work out relative positions for a radio call may well have been fatal...

Knowing what I know now, having tried NVG's on the GR7 programme and indeed having cheap night vision gear on the boat, I'd avoid pointing the searchlight at a helo' at all costs.

[Charlie Luncher]

Depending on cloud cover and sea state, we will try and get below the cloud, have seen in excess of 10+nmiles you can also get nvg compatible strobes but a bit pricey and not compatible with FLIR.
If you shine a bright light in my eyes I will drop something nasty on you.:} The RADAR reflectors are good for me but not so much for your large MVs as a little yachty barely making 5 kts over the ground will probably be in their clutter. That is if they are on the Navhi and looking at it not just alarmed for proximity. Size does matter and going head to head with a min crewed MV would be ballsy, AIS compatible equipment will help a lot in busy waters.
Charlie sends

[NutLoose]

OUT OF INTEREST, Oops cap lock.........

Many. Many Many moons ago I remember Tomorrows World....... see I told you it was many moons ago..

Featured a distress flare that contained Chaff, the idea at the time as shown was it would throw up a blip on any ships radar or coastguard radar alerting people far better than a single flare........... never heard anything more of what seemed a sensible idea.

They also featured a triangular life raft that was shaped like a Toberone bar that you entered from either end, the idea being it would not capsize but simple roll so one of the side walls would now form the floor etc.
seemed a clever idea at the time........

[diginagain]

.........a little like spending some time in a washing machine, along with all your survival gear and stomach contents.

Wonder why it never caught-on?

[NutLoose]

Not really, it was designed to be as stable as a normal one, just meant if it did capsize you were still in it.

[jimgriff]

I remember the Chaff rockets! Hand held (just like current para luminaries)
but had a free falling single white star and a chaff bloom depolyed at 1000'.
Made by Pains -Wessex. Cant tell you what we used 'em for though!:E