Which service would you go for?

[future_mil]

Evening all, just wanted to put this out there for your thoughts. With everything that's happening with the economy at the moment there seems to be little work in civvy st. so I'm going to go for the military. Been looking for years and it's time to bite the bullet I reckon. I'm JAA CPL/IR qualified on helis, types A109 and B206, got all the qualifications, fitness etc needed for all three services apart from possibly the RAF where at 23 I understand I'm now too old :confused: also passed the flying aptitude tests at Cranwell a few years ago so I'm OK there. Anyway, any of you who've served or are serving in the Navy or Army, what're your thoughts on the work, conditions, the flying hours you get, management, etc? Did you make the right choice of service? I'd be especially interested to hear the pros and cons of Army officer vs. NCO route. I've no massive desire to be an officer to be honest but if that's the best way into mil aviation so be it. Do NCOs or officers get more flight time than the other - do one group tend to continue in their jobs longer than the other? I appreciate that I'd have to work in a different role for a period as an Army NCO before applying as a pilot, but thinking seriously about a full mil career I'm more concerned about the long term than short.
Any thoughts or comments would be much appreciated. After chatting to various people in various AFCOs and units you start to go round in circles. Cheers! :ok:

[anotherthing]

Sounds to me like you shouldn't bother with the mil. From what you have written, you don't have the right attitude or mindset.
...there seems to be little work in civvy st. so I'm going to go for the military...

It's not a flying club, or somewhere to gain as many hours as possible.


Do NCOs or officers get more flight time than the other...
To go down the military route, you need to want to be in the military, and to fly. Not want to fly, and do a bit of marching because thats what it takes to log hours.

[Bertie Thruster]

it's time to bite the bullet I reckon

Are you actually prepared to do this?

From the tone of your post it might not be an enemy bullet.

[diginagain]

A rather pertinent question put to me on my first visit to OASC was;

"The primary function of Her Majesty's armed forces is to be prepared, when so ordered, to close with and deliver death to Her enemies. Think you can do that, son?"

I don't think much has changed in the intervening 30-odd years.

[future_mil]

Why is it that every question from a potential newbie on PPRuNe is met with such cynicism?

Sounds to me like you shouldn't bother with the mil. From what you have written, you don't have the right attitude or mindset.

It's not a flying club, or somewhere to gain as many hours as possible.

To go down the military route, you need to want to be in the military, and to fly. Not want to fly, and do a bit of marching because thats what it takes to log hours.What would you prefer that I had said then? I didn't ask questions about the drill, military life, pay, benefits or anything else like that because I've already done a hell of a lot of reading on this. I can also appreciate that there's more to life than flying. I requested any thoughts on the pros and cons of each service only because of a certain amount of indecision mostly brought about from talking to too many people.

Are you actually prepared to do this?

From the tone of your post it might not be an enemy bullet.Well biting enemy bullets is something I'd prefer not to do but that's a risk that obviously comes as part of the job. I see it as being no different professionally than some of the riskier stuff civvy pilots do.

"The primary function of Her Majesty's armed forces is to be prepared, when so ordered, to close with and deliver death to Her enemies. Think you can do that, son?"Yep.

So... seriously I apologise if somehow I've got anyone's back up, that wasn't my intention, but if someone does have thoughts regarding the various services then please feel free...

[Roadster280]

Excuse me for adding my 2 cents. I'm not aircrew of any description. Never have been. I did however spent a long time on Betty's payroll, and some of that with her helicopters. I know sod all about OASC, AIB et al, but rather more about being a soldier. I, along with many (but not all) here joined to serve my Queen and country. I did my job and moved along, mission accomplished. I now live in the States, and the USMC has some very good recruitment posters: "We don't accept applications, only commitments". I gave mine. Where's yours?

The OASC board will want to know that if you are not selected, or fail as a pilot, that you will continue as an officer. Or even an airman/soldier/sailor. You can contribute just as well to the defence of the realm as a mess steward as a pilot. All the jobs need doing. I'm surprised that as someone with the intelligence and maturity required to pass the aeronautical exams that you have, that you make such a crass statement about not caring if you become an officer or not. You have clearly been misbriefed, or not researched sufficiently. Or both.

Given that you have apparently appeared at OASC before, this is even more surprising.

I really do wish you the best, but I fear you will need to look inward quite a bit for quite a while.

[alwayslookingup]

So folks,

after reading the helpful pointers in the posts already up, he'll know exactly what to say and not what to say, will sharpen his b******t capacity to perfection (as he sounds like that kind of a character), and be in (if he still really wants to be). And then, what havoc he'll reek, until out.

And that's not meaning to denigrate in any way the wise words already posted. As usual on PPrune, when someone comes on looking for advice from the older and wiser, its usually spot on, as I'd say it is here.

Best wishes to one and all from the white and frozen north britain.

[future_mil]

future_mil: I've no massive desire to be an officer to be honest.
Army Recruiter: Oh I see, well we are really looking for Officer Entry Pilo.....

I'm surprised that as someone with the intelligence and maturity required to pass the aeronautical exams that you have, that you make such a crass statement about not caring if you become an officer or not.

so what you're saying by taking the mick out of me is that Army NCOs who'd prefer to stay an NCO and not become an officer shouldn't be flying? I can see the benefits of both routes, why assume that because I'm considering joining as a soldier (and, incidentally, doing a non-flying job for a long period - which I'd also hope to enjoy and do well in as a job in its own right not just as a route into military aviation), I'm not committed, wouldn't 'take a bullet' et al. Soldiers do a bloody good job too, they get responsibility, leadership training and many I've met are are fantastic people too. You don't have to go to Sandhurst or BRNC to serve the Queen well - but as (I'd assume) officers yourselves I'm sure you already know that?

[future_mil]

PS the reason I didn't start a thread with the usual "I desperately want to be an officer, I don't care what officer role I have as long as I'm an officer" etc was that I was hoping a no-b******t enquiry would induce a no-b******t response from people who really know what they're talking about. It's what I would consider one of the great things I about anonymity and PPRuNe

[future_mil]

OK rereading what I wrote earlier I think I start to see where I'm going wrong here
"Bite the bullet" probably wasn't the best phrase to use - I didn't mean that as in 'OK I'll have to do this' but as 'I've wanted to do this for years and I think now's the time to make the decision and go for it'. Quitting civvy life to go for the military isn't a small step!

Regarding going round in circles the problem I've had is talking to a Navy guy he comes out with statements such as Army guys aren't treated the same, they get shouted at all the time (which, frankly sounds like a misconception from someone who's not been in the Army), an Army NCO has told me to join as an officer, yet an officer has told me to join as a soldier since officers tend to move onto different roles while Army NCO pilots tend to stay in aviation longer. See where I'm coming from? That's why I just wanted to throw this out there for thoughts or opinions, get it from the horses mouth so to speak what the people actually doing these roles think.

Now I'm just praying to God I make a better impression on the recruiting staff or this is all going to be irrelevant anyway :{

[future_mil]

OK well any more thoughts working on the basis that I'm not going to be put off so easily by bickering on what is - as you point out - an anonymous internet forum?

[airborne_artist]

Some facts:

At 23 you are not too old to attempt to join the RAF, but there's a pretty firm rule that you have to start by your 24th birthday. The process takes at least six months, and your next entry chance is Sep 09.

The upper age limit for the RN is 25 and 11 months - again, all officer entry.

The upper age limit for the Army as an officer is 28. You have to get a place at Sandhurst, and then get the AAC to take a good look at you, and finally pass out of RMAS in the top 30%.

There is no direct-entry Army NCO aircrew route - you have to join (any arm/regiment) as a private, get to L/Cpl, and then apply to AAC for pilot selection. About four years minimum.

Your best option would be to twin-track for the RAF and RN, and to read the OASC thread, and for the RN to read the AIB threads on the Newbies forum on navy-net.co.uk.

Officer entry for all three services requires 180 UCAS points from two or more A-levels or approved courses, and Maths and an English passes at GCSE. A degree does not supersede the UCAS or GCSE requirements.

[dallas]

future_mil,

While I can understand your nonchalance about the officer bit - frankly I'm of the same opinion - your opening line (the one after 'evening all') won't endear you to many people here. We already have enough half-hearted and selfish individuals in the services without you adding to the throng, either by jumping ship back to civvy world when the economy picks up, or catching pension-itis and cashing in whatever integrity you have for the next rank.

[PPI Zulu]

Welcome to the forum! :)

It seems that you have had a pretty bad mauling from some quarters but please don't think that we are all cantankerous, colostomy-swilling, bile-venting old loons who really have nothing more to say than 'the young-uns didn't have that attitude in my day'.
Unfortunately, gone are the days of offering friendly advice and intimating that certain points you raise are likely to count against you during selection. It seems we have adopted a much more Tabliod approach to these type of questions of late and it's a shame. :yuk:

There are many avenues and each Service has it's own merits, requirements and, ultimately, cadre and ethos that you will have to serve in.

There is some good advice up there somewhere. Read the threads on AIB / Pongo selection / OASC that were recomended. The long and the short of it is that many who are invited to join up don't have it all in the beginning and develop the rest during training and further on. I once heard it said of the the Royal Navy that it only wanted half-wits as it would supply the other half.
The points about getting shot at are also very sound. There's a lot of lead and other nastys getting very close to us at the moment and for the foreseeable future - you'll have to accept that and long deployments to those areas.

You're right, the Armed forces are a good employment prospect at the moment but the return of service rules are the stopper if you are hoping to just weather the current storm. Also, if the recruiters even get a sniff that this is what you're up to, then you won't even get through the door.

Best of luck....

[airborne_artist]

Haven't you read any of his murmurings AA?

I read all his posts, but decided there was little to be gained by pouring more Avgas on the already raging fire!

[NickGooseBrady]

jumping ship back to civvy world when the economy picks up, or catching pension-itis and cashing in whatever integrity you have for the next rank.

Errrmmmm, from my limited experience (10 years service as an officer in the RN) you have just described 100% of my friends, colleagues and superiors. Are you really suggesting that post a certain point people continue to serve for reasons other then the pension or promotion? I guarantee you that if the economy was in better shape and the immediate pension was pulled then there would be very few older, more experienced types left in the forces. I am not suggesting that ones ideals or loyalty to ones flag or service diminishes as one gets older, just that priorities change and financial security takes on a greater emphasis.

For Future_Mil, I think you should bin your username, start again from scrath and just consider your outing into this mil forum as a few lessons learned. However, I see no difference in your attitude to a few guys I joined up with, now both flying harriers. They had never been in cadets, had never considered the military but then one day, after Uni, wondered into the careers office and 10 years later are flying harriers (obviously they nailed flying training too). Yes they have been on the "front line" but they get on with it with the professionalism of anyone trained to such a high standard. You do not need a gung-ho Queen and Country attitude to make it or do a good job. Just consider that in any of the Armed Services you are a Sailor/Airmen/Soldier first and a pilot second. Play the selection game well (and it is a game, as is basic training), choose your words wisely and you could get through selection and be a useful and productive member of the armed services just like anyone else. Best of luck.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Future_Mil, I think you should bin your username, start again from scratch and just consider your outing into this mil forum as a few lessons learned.

Good advice, particularly as I agree with NGB's other comments. Although of a different generation, I applied to be a "fighter pilot and earn £1500pa" because the advert made the job read better than working for an insurance company in the City. I had no idea that I would have to be an officer and even if I had had that knowledge, it would have meant very little to me. I had not been a member of the CCF, ATC or any other military type organisation and I had never been airborne. In fact perfect material for the RAF. They were able to "make me into an aircrew officer" and I reckon they did a reasonable job.
The real trick is to learn as you go along and, surprise surprise, the training staff were, and still are, very good at picking out the right people and turning them into officers.
Finally, it would be foolish to enter into any form of training without doing a lot of groundwork and study first.
Best of luck:ok:

[dallas]

Errrmmmm, from my limited experience (10 years service as an officer in the RN) you have just described 100% of my friends, colleagues and superiors. Are you really suggesting that post a certain point people continue to serve for reasons other then the pension or promotion?
I was observing that there are too many people like that, existing day to day and failing to bring anything new to the table, especially for their subordinates. I find those who are scrambling to get as far as they can before the music stops particularly odious, and have recently had the displeasure to experience the next three in my command chain all happily 'yessing' their way through their 2-year tours, to the detriment of several departments. A prime example of superficial short-termism grabbing headlines and promotion, with little regard for the long-term practicalities for those left behind.

[camelspyyder]

...that has to be the answer to your original question.

After 27 years service (still ongoing I might add), I certainly wouldn't want my kids joining up, and they are about your age.

A lack of opportunity in civvy street is no motivation for a career in the military. You have to really want to be treated like dirt, work like a slave, get trodden on by bosses chasing promotion etc. etc.

And that's before the Talitubbies or Mahdi army try and kill you daily, and you get to experience the things which are too horrendous to make the News at 10...

Of course, if you want all that go for it but otherwise...

Best of luck with your application.

CS

[ianp]

Wow future mil, you really managed to stoke up this one.

I am helo pilot in the RAF and have been one in the RN, great time and great job, but you need to be committed. Tend to find in life you only get out what you put in, internet forums and recruiting blah will witter on about this but to be honest you need a bit of passion which you will not see in the bumf (pause for schoolboy sniggering).
You obviously have a bit of experience so I suggest you ask the recruiting office if you could visit some of the bases/units to actually talk to the chaps on the front line. Only when you have decided that you really want to go down the mil flying route should you apply as recruiters and initial trainers will be able to spot your current lack of commitment a mile off. Remember its a tough life in the womans auxillary balloon corps...... :ok:

[Chicken Leg]

future_mil

As someone said above, welcome to the Military Aircrew forum. As you have seen, there are plenty of people on here who are far too precious and far too far up their own ar5es to give you any kind of decent advice.

I'm sure that you are intelligent enough to know that if you do go down the recruitment process, for whichever service, you will have to say the right things and imply that it has been you life long dream. In other words, you lay on the bull5hit just like you would when you apply for any other job or career! The obvious question that you must prepare for is why you have left it so long to apply for your life long dream!

The three services are actually quite different, but at the same time similar! As you already know, the RN and RAF only recruit Officer pilots and both of these will expect you to want to be an officer first and pilot second - although sometimes you would never know that in the RAF!! I would not recommend joining the Army as a soldier. I did and although I finished up with a commission, it pains me to say that I would not recommend joining the Army as a soldier today. Officer training for all three services takes around 12 months and only then will you start pilot training. You may well then have a significant hold, but this is less likely in either the RN or Army.

Do not assume that because you have a CPL IR that you will breeze pilot training. The services look for different skill to commerical flying and the pilot course photo's are littered with people who started training with licenses, but did not pass the course. You have to be prepared for this. What would you do if you signed several years of your life away, but failed a flying course and were then contractually committed to the services?

The RN and RAF tend to keep their pilots in flying positions far longer than the Army before they get whisked away to fly a desk for a couple of years. Although the AAC are addressing this by starting to recruiting Direct Entry Officers who are not pilots. This is a new direction for the Army and 'should' make Army Officers' flying longer.

I would not get too excited about some of the posts on here. There are hundreds (thousands!) of officers' and soldiers who are not in the services because of their love of their country or the Queen. It's no longer the romantic 'way of life' that it was a decade or so ago and many view their jobs as just that. Jobs! Don't get me wrong, it is different to anything else that you will have experienced, but gone are the days when everyone within 'the mob' eat, sleep and breath the job.

Just like any other application, if you apply, do your research and know what you're getting yourself in for. It's not like you can just decide to not go in that day if you no longer like it.

Good luck in whatever choice you make.