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neilson
3rd Feb 2009, 15:43
What would you say is more valuable. PIC time on a Metroliner or SIC on an RJ? Recently, I’ve applied to a regional carrier in Canada which is advertising FO spots on an RJ. He industry is slowing down here and movement is pretty much halting. With the way the industry is going, is it wise to be at the bottom of a list? Last quarter they made a profit and they say they are expecting to do the same again next quarter. However, I have my doubts.

The company I work for currently operates a fleet of metro’s. I hold pretty decent seniority from an FO’s standpoint. I am close to being upgraded however, things can change I could end up riding the top of the FO list for some time to come. Pay isn’t a huge issue for me as I know it’ll come eventually with time and experience. Experience and resume building is really what I’m after right now. That being said im interested in working for a major airline eventually and would appreciate advice on what I should do.

Any advice is helpful. Thanks in advance.

neilson

Reluctant737
3rd Feb 2009, 15:47
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but in these times, pick the operator least likely to go into administration!

belloldtimer
3rd Feb 2009, 16:12
Good advice, I've been thru two bankruptcys in my career and netither was fun. I'd go with security over salary any day of the week. My best advise is to not shoot your own foot off, stay with a secure position and keep your eyes opern for another secure position. Better emloyed for a little money then unemployed and at the bottom of any seniroty list!

Best regards,

Steven:ugh:

777AV8R
6th Feb 2009, 14:23
Having been around for a while, I'll hire someone with 500 hrs of command time over someone with 2000 hrs SIC.

You can never replace command experience because you have control of the whole operation and all those with whom you work. As SIC, even though you have input, it is that guy/gal sitting in that left seat who makes the final decision.

Take the Command Seat and you'll be able to fly the glitzy glass airplane in due course.

All the best to you.

greywings
6th Feb 2009, 15:33
Couldn't agree more with 777AV8R. Command time is what you need. You will see flying from a completetly different perspective when you are in the left seat and the experience will be invaluable, regardless of the type you will be flying. I have done a lot of airline recruiting and left seat time is an important factor when your file is being considered.

Be patient and get the LHS time in. The industry will recover, as it always does, and you will be well-placed to enjoy the opportunities presented.

Good luck.

GW

faireydelta
6th Feb 2009, 17:28
I agree somewhat with greywings, command time is valuable, but I will throw in my two cents worth into this discussion which is intersting to me because I was faced with this same choice about 18 years ago and I sometimes wonder to this day, did I make the right choice?

I was similarly faced with the left seat Metro/right seat Dash 8 and decided to take the Metro left seat. A few months later, the Dash 8 guys were on the street, laid off, and I sighed in relief thinking I'd dodged a bullet, till shortly thereafter, the Metro job died too. The Dash 8 guys that were laid off quickly found work with the Air Canada connector airlines of the day. I had a tougher time finding work. The Dash 8 types over the years ended up doing better than me, I think, and progerssed to the left seat on the 8 and eventuallly right then left seat at charter airlines at about a 3-5 year advantage to me.

So, looking back, yes, command time is valuable and may impress a recruiter, but remember what the goal is here...If you are flying a Metro as a captain, the next step up would be the right seat of a Dash 8-type aircraft (with another company), unless your current (Metro) operator has large turboprops and streams pilots from left seat to left seat. The right seat on the RJ Type is where you'd be headed anyway, in most cases, even after a thousand hours of Metro command,...so the question is, why not take the right seat on a larger type when it's offered and wait out the seniority and slide in the left seat of the larger aircraft that way?

In the end, taking the right seat on the RJ type wll result in a net quicker transition to the left seat of that RJ than taking a detour into the left seat of the Metro. This is only because, to a large extent, our progression is governed by seniority in this industry and direct entry left seat opportunities are rare.

My two cents: take the RJ right seat and wait. This from a guy that's always chased the left seat and is now older and top heavy with command time and responsibilies (family/mortgage, etc.) and so unwilling/unable to start anew in the right seat of ANY operator here in Canada due to poor pay and progression prospects at this mid-to-late stage in his career. My prospects are now narrower in the sense that the only jobs I can take involve left-seat flying overseas (which I've been doing).

As for what company will make it or not through the recession, your crystal ball is as lousy as anyone else's. The bottom line is: seniority is the driver in our field, not necessarily experience and you need to consult that gut-feeling Gyro within you with regard to which operator might last the next 5 years.

My own Gyro in that area has been toppled too many times over the years to know which way is up anymore, so maybe I'm the last guy you should take advice from, but if I had a Way-Back Machine, I think I'd now take that right seat Dash 8 job.

greywings
7th Feb 2009, 02:07
Great post, Fairey Delta, and I would not argue with a single word of it. However, all our experiences are different as are the outcomes, so, at the end of the day, one flips a coin and makes the decision unless, of course, the 'correct' answer is glaringly obvious, which does not seem to be the case here.

A major factor in the decision would probably be the age of the decision-maker as there is fairly clear age / command / right seat ratio which will often influence the decision of any recruiter.

As before, good luck with the decision. I (we?) hope to hear - in due course - that your decision was the right one.

GW

Chuck Ellsworth
7th Feb 2009, 02:37
There is no " right " answer because aviation is one of the most clusterf.cked occupations on earth.

The very best one can do is try and weigh each opportunity as they come along and make your choice.

Fate and the way the industry goes from there on will determine if your choice was best.....then again you have no way to know what would have happened had you took the other job, so it really is a guessing game.

Having flown all the different seats I now have the very best one for me.

It is the front center seat in the Husky Amphibian that I fly for pleasure now that I am retired. :ok:

faireydelta
7th Feb 2009, 15:45
Chuck Ellsworth and Greywings:

I absolutely concurr with both of you. The decision is in the end highly personal and there are too many unknowable variables that need to be stirred into the equation to come up with an objectvely "correct" answer. If I remember my algebra, an equation with too many unknowns is unsolvable, so our young friend needs to go with his gut...be true to himself and decide on something he can live with...I know, for instance, that for me, any time spent in the right seat would generally be bad for my nervous system...so I made the choices I made knowing this about my own makeup (which still didn't prevent me from doing a pretty good job as an FO, I was told).

When faced with these "Fork in the Road" decisions, the outcomes of our choices only begin to resolve themselves about 5 years or so down the line. So, as in our flying, we have to make decisions based on information/gut feelings we have on hand and then we live with them.

A very wise pilot once told me, "You should never ask yourself 'what if ?' (as in what if I had done this or that) ask yourself only 'what now?'. Fine advice I have had to remind myself about while writing these posts.

Good luck, Neilson.

neilson
10th Feb 2009, 02:34
Hey,

Thanks for all of the advice. These are all great points that I need to factor in. I see points from both sides of the fence which still makes it difficult to decide.

The fact that some friends have recently moved on to bigger companies doesn’t help either though. It’s funny how we get the itch to move when we see others around us getting ahead and moving on. We’re happy to see them get the job, but at the same time a little envious and hate to get left behind in the dust so to speak.... Maybe I’m way off on that and I’m the only one who thinks like that.... I dunno.

Lately, a lot of our FO’s have been jumping ship to bigger outfits (Air Canada Jazz and Porter) with the occasional Captain leaving for them also. They have been leaving for their own personal reason aside of career ambitions I believe as most of them wanted to return closer to home. However, I suspect they also saw it as an advance to their careers too. That being said we have had Captains leave for even bigger outfits like Air Canada Mainline, Westjet, Air Transat, and Cathay to name a few. All of these jumps though occurred during the latest economic boom have since slowed with exception to a few going to Westjet.

Anyways, as of right now, my TT sits around 2700. Of that time, I only hold around 900 PIC on small aircraft. Most of the TT is SIC on the Metro and a little PC12. The captains spots are starting to dry up at my company and the reality of staying an FO due to uncontrollable circumstances seems to be coming an ever more reality than I hoped...i could be wrong...people may still leave.

Anyways, Thanks for all of the input so far...I do appreciate the feedback. If anyone else has anything more to add please feel free to addin..

Cheers,
neilson

greywings
11th Feb 2009, 05:06
Dear Neilson,

I am at the other end of my career to you, and have been extremely lucky with my decisions. The best decisions (in the long run) were often those that seemed to be the longest shot and most ill-advised. They all required a lot of effort and heart-searching and put myself and my family under the greatest pressure. In the end they all worked out, though they turned me into an expatriate. I cannot offer any further advice other than to suggest you do what you know is best for you - and your family if that is appropriate - and enjoy the rest of your aviation career.

Best of luck.

GW