Pay Rise on 1st April 09?

[VinRouge]

Thing is, both of those indicies are both bollox, constructed by the government to favour their decisions.

Fact is, neither RPI or CPI represent the true cost of increase of living.

Unless you eat widescreen PCs with a whole raft of other consumer products that is.

My guess? RPI will go negative whilst CPI will remain above the 2% target for the duration of this crisis. There is a whole load of inflation backing up in the system, record low interest rates and record low shipping will not do anything to reduce inflation.

Its a bloody good job that public sector pay settlements have been calculated off cpi isnt it?

[advocatusDIABOLI]

OK, I apologise for my cheap stab at the unfortunate Ms G, (but NOT for any stabs I may make at the G). I was just continuing a theme started much earlier in this thread. But, as has been pointed out, not many people will read all of it, so we are repeating ourselves, and becoming 'Boring' in doing so.

So, with March fast disappearing, and the 'usual' announcment made in Feb....... what is the 'Real' reason for the delay?, what is the 'Real' reason for grouping all Public Sector worker together? and what is the Freakin' Secret?!!! Lets face it, if half of the Gov's Data Security was sewn up this tight, they wouldn't have had the crushing embarassments they've had over the last few years. More importantly, why haven't we heard the slightest squeek from 'Them Upstairs'?.....Nothing.

The truth will out, and I don't think we will like it. But, bad news is bad news which ever day it happens. Better delivered in a timely fashion, with honesty and integrity in my view. Imagine a policeman comming to your door, and saying:

'Yeh, your kids been in a train crash, but we'll let you know the outcome in due course. Thing is, there's a bit of a rush on with train crashes this week, so we want to group them all together'

Advo

[JackRyan]

Isn't this a case of the NHS get x% one week, police get y% the week after then the firemen get z% the week after that. Of course, the firemen will find umbrance at what the NHS and police got and demand at least as much, if not more. We will then all be employed on an Operation Fiasco again:

Operation Fresco (http://www.operations.mod.uk/fresco/index.htm)

It was a similar situation with the Hoyer tanker drivers last summer. This was at the height of the inflation and there was a certain hyseria which culminated in everyone trying to get a better pay rise than was announced for the last group.

BBC NEWS | Business | Tanker driver strike to go ahead (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7449850.stm)

That's how we got in to the ridiculous situation of a HGV licence (one week course) being more valuable than a 3 year degree and 4 years flying training... I think, in the big scheme, this is good planning. Still annoying it's left to the last week, though.

[Talk Reaction]

On the plus side, we've all learnt a lot about how inflation is measured over the last 14 pages: if money=power and knowledge IS power then we've all had a sort of pay rise thanks to Prune!! ;)

[LFFC]

I just stumbled across an interesting article on the RAF Families Federation (http://www.raf-families-federation.org.uk/financial-news.asp?id=234) website.

13 March 2009 : Why Has the 2009 Pay Award Not Been Announced Yet?

Compared to other years the Annual Pay award for the Armed Services is much delayed this year. Some cynics would say that the Government is waiting for the Retail Price Index (RPI) to fall in order for a minimal pay award to appear generous. In response a member of the Pay Policy Staff says:

"I am not surprised at with these questions. Many others are asking something similar and, by the nature of this business, it is inevitable that delay to the normal timetable will be regarded suspiciously. I will do what I can to answer within the constraints I face.

"You will understand, I hope, why I can say little about the specifics of this year’s award at the present time. Until an announcement is made nothing is certain. What I can say is that the Armed Forces Pay Review Body (AFPRB) process is complete less the announcement, and has been for a little while.

"A decision was made by the Government to delay so as to coordinate the AFPRB announcement with other related news. There is no intention not to deliver this award wef 1 April 09 but I cannot tell you exactly when an announcement will be made but it is expected very soon. I have seen no evidence of manoeuvrings along the 'RPI falling line' suggested.

"Conspiracy theories inevitably will abound but I can assure you that all Service evidence has been carefully received and considered and AFPRB is as well informed regarding the realities of what’s being asked of our service personnel and their families as they could be. The Board met this past year 3,500 service personnel and spouses in several hundred formal discussion groups during 25 visits in GB, NI, Belgium, Cyprus, Iraq and Afghanistan and saw the worst and best of our dining facilities and accommodation in each location.

"I am confident that their recommendations will reflect all they learned. You may also be encouraged to note that over the last 10 years HMG has accepted every AFPRB recommendation. I hope that this year’s news might not be as bad as some fear though, as said before, there are no guarantees until an announcement is made."

It goes on to say:


Background

The AFPRB acts independently to the MOD, the Tresury (HMT) or any other Governmentt Department to develop its recommendations on basic pay (base pay + X Factor), some allowances and charges (food & accommodation). Its report is submitted to the Prime Minister through the Cabinet and also to Secretary of State for Defence.

The Public Sector Pay Committee (PSPC) then reviews the report and, all others like it, from the various Pay Review Bodies. PSPC is chaired by Cabinet and attended by HMT and, for the AFPRB report, MOD officials.

The PSPC chairman then writes to Ministers from relevant Departments to seek their approval or comment, a summary of which is then submitted to the Prime Minister. It is he who decides whether to accept the AFPRB’s recommendations in full or in part and whether to deliver immediately or to stage all or part of the submitted package. He decides what % pay rise we get!

It will be very interesting to see exactly what was submitted to the PSPC.

[insty66]

Can someone please refresh my memory?

I think it goes like this:

The AFPRB compile a report and it is submitted to Treasury/Govt for approval.

The Treasury/Govt study the report and then award the pay rise (usually the recommendation).

Is that (basically) how it goes? Forget that just read LFFCs post:O

If the Boards recommendations are ignored, do we still see their report? or is it edited to suit before publication?

Just curious really.

[LFFC]

If the Boards recommendations are ignored, do we still see their report? or is it edited to suit before publication?


I'm sure the AFPRB Report will be published, but if it was edited prior to publication, then I would imagine that the Chairman's position would be untenable.

[insty66]

I'm sure the AFPRB Report will be published, but if it was edited prior to publication, then I would imagine that the Chairman's position would be untenable.

Wasn't there a job advert for a new chairman a month or two ago?

[advocatusDIABOLI]

So,

this interesting 'guidance' and 'explaination' are provided on the RAF Families web site, but nothing is passed through the 'normal' chain of command. What's more, this was posted on 13 Mar, and already the respondent comments on general unease and potential ill feeling, indicating that this must be understood and known higher up.

I fear a storm is brewing. Make way for the 'new world', my guess is that after 1 Apr 09, nothing much will be the same again. ALL bets are off, and worse still, I bet military pensions are already being considered for a good old raping!

I may be old, and cynical, but I cannot be the only person to be putting a few clues together........ can I?

Advo

[LFFC]

Looks like news is beginning to trickle out.

The Times - 24 Mar 09 - Big freeze starts to hit public sector pay (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5963352.ece)

[ProfessionalStudent]

... but it does say...

Unions have previously tried to revise pay deals upwards but, with deflation looming, this is the first time that employers have used the same rules to squeeze pay. However, the Armed Forces are likely to enjoy slightly higher rises to reflect demanding deployments in Iraq and Afghan-istan and a retention crisis.

So there's hope yet. Not much, granted, but hope nonetheless.

[BlackIsle]

Todays info in Times Online makes a start with speculation for NHS but the alarming bit is the reference within to the timing of public sector pay decisions. The article suggests the news was due tomorrow but now may be delayed due to " content and timing".

As ex RAF now working in private sector I, like many, have just learned of a pay freeze with a suspension of incremental rises too! For all the understandable concerns about pay we can only really "take it or leave it" but think very hard about how you might not always improve your lot (in just monetary terms) by leaving in a huff.

Meanwhile, the wait continues......

[CAC Runaway]

BBC reporting that inflation has hit 0%

BBC NEWS | Business | Key inflation measure hits zero (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7959564.stm)

So the pay announcement must be imminent!! :ugh:

[Ali Barber]

Tony McNulty row: MPs call for £40,000 pay rise - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5040614/Tony-McNulty-row-MPs-call-for-40000-pay-rise.html)

MPs willing to swap their £24,000 housing allowance that is open to abuse for £40,000 pay rise instead!

I wouldn't p**s down their throat if it was on fire!

[plans123]

Looks like some of the scribblies over on E-Goat have been searching about on JPA at the payscales for next year and come up with some figures...

E-Goat :: The Totally Unofficial Royal Air Force Rumour Network forums - View Single Post - Pay Rise 2009 (http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=341026&postcount=302)

[cazatou]

When I joined the Royal Air Force as an Officer Cadet, the day after Sir Winston Churchill died, my daily rate of pay was £0 17s 3d (that 86.25 pence) before Tax and National Insurance. Food and accommodation were, however, free.

:ok:

[navibrator]

The pension cannot be raped as one contributor suggests. If anyone remembered the change from 75 to 05, it has protected rights under law.

[threeputt]

Mine too, we must have joined about the same time? 2 Jan 67 at Henlow for me.

3P:ok:

[Farfrompuken]

Navibrator,

That may be all very well but HMG are practically bankrupt and the public sector pension deficit is HUGE. MP's pensions are actually funded unlike ours....

[BEagle]

But, cazatou, wasn't beer around 1/10d a pint?

Tell that to 't youth of today.......

[Stanley Eevil]

Our pensions are not `free` or `unfunded` as the military salary is abated at source by approx 8% to take into account the benefits provided by the AFPS.

[Farfrompuken]

Stan,

The pensions are 'unfunded' from the point of view that there is no 'pot' in which they are held. They come from the tax burden and small contributions from the individual. As we stand, the public sector pension deficit if £1 Trillion! With the current situation, with the nationalization of the banks etc and 10 years of gross financial mismanagement there simply isn't the money to pay for our pensions.

MPs have a dedicated set-aside fund, unlike us.:rolleyes:

Legal right or not, if there aint the money there aint the money. I am skeptical as to whether I'll see a pension in the order of what I would have epected a few years back.

UK Plc is worse off than many nations; our woes make the USA's look like a tea party!:\

As far as a pay rise.........where's the money coming from?!!! And don't just say the taxpayer, as that's the thinking of GB who steered us into this mess with that kind of logic. We'll be robbing Peter to pay for Paul.

Just to have a job at the moment is a good thing. Besides, we're in deflation (despite official figures) and many are getting cuts not rises.

[cazatou]

BEagle

You went in the Saloon Bar then?

[peterark]

If you feel strongly about the pay issues in HM forces, sign this petition Petition (http://new.petitiononline.com/cgi-bin/create_petition.cgi)

[JackRyan]

Harriet Harman was asked by a pleasant Con MP as to why the AFPRB submitted its report in Jan and yet we still don't know what our pay is next week. Like every other question today she didn't really answer it and just stated the goverment's commitment to the armed forces. Indeed.

[8-15fromOdium]

Jack, from the way I understood Harriet Harpersons reply, the Defence Secretary will be making a statement tomorrow about this matter. I did note that it would be a statement not the details of the pay rise.

[10techie]

Extract from Hansard of today's PMQs

Q5. [266013] Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): The Armed Forces Pay Review Body submitted its report to the Prime Minister on 29 January. Why should our personnel serving in the field still have no idea whether they will get any pay rise by Wednesday next week? Does the delay reflect more about the Government’s attitude towards the armed forces, or is it another example of dithering incompetence?
Ms Harman: The Government have been unswerving, and rightly so, in our commitment to our armed forces. The Minister of State for Defence will open a full day’s debate on the armed services tomorrow, and I am sure that he will address that point.

[White Noise]

PR09 I wonder ??

[onlywatching]

Anyone heard any formal news yet?

[peppermint_jam]

Hurry up and wait some more. I believe that when the question was asked in Parliament today, the reply was "Soon".

Brilliant huh!

[interested matelot]

Armed forces minister was questioned by the shadow defense secretary today in parliament, who asked 'When will the government make a response to the recomendations of the armed forces review body?' The armed forces minister replied 'we are about ready to make our response known to the review body, we shall do so as soon as we are able to. I don't think it is overdue, I am not aware of a set date for the release, we will make the house aware of the result of the AFPRB soon is the only answer I can give the honourable gentleman, and I urge him to be patient'. It was interesting to see the lack of the defense secretary at the parliamentary debate on defense

[Melchett01]

I don't think it is overdue, I am not aware of a set date for the release, we will make the house aware of the result of the AFPRB soon is the only answer I can give the honourable gentleman, and I urge him to be patient'

In response to the Honourable Gentleman

1. Well we think it's well overdue.
2. Not aware of a set date ..... try in time for 1 Apr
3. Be patient .... try going to any military installation in the country and saying that.

Yet another demonstration of the complete and utter contempt with which this Government holds the military.

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

Nothing shocks me anymore about this 'Circus' of a government. :ugh:

My bet is on a board recommendation of around 5%, which is in line with figures mentioned in previous posts and linked to stats from Sep 08. Guess the chumps in London need to grow a ‘pair of danglies’ and endorse it, rather than dithering around looking for other ‘bad news day’ opportunities to hide it.:mad::mad::mad:

[LFFC]

The armed forces minister replied, 'we are about ready to make our response known to the review body, we shall do so as soon as we are able to. I don't think it is overdue, I am not aware of a set date for the release, we will make the house aware of the result of the AFPRB soon is the only answer I can give the honourable gentleman, and I urge him to be patient'.

I believe these are the dates on which previous AFPRB reports have been published:

08 Feb 96
06 Feb 97
29 Jan 98
01 Feb 99
15 Feb 00
09 Feb 01
29 Jan 02
08 Feb 03
23 Feb 04
22 Feb 05
16 Feb 06
01 Mar 07
07 Feb 08

The late release of the AFPRB report in 2007 prompted Lord Garden to ask a question in the House of Lords (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldhansrd/text/70226-0005.htm) on 26 Feb 07:

Lord Garden, "With regard to the morale of our troops, this may sound as if it is a long way from operations in Afghanistan, but it will be important to them: when will the Armed Forces Pay Review Body report be published? It is now more overdue than it has ever been, and it will be taken by the troops as a signal of how much the Government value what they are doing".

[airborne_artist]

I heard on the grapevine that the DefSec had sharp words about this on Monday. He realised too late that Sunday would have been a great day to release the news, as it would have been buried by the outpourings of grief about the death of Jade Goody.

[Vage Rot]

Wen I wur a lad, 't pay rise wasna given t'us til late in't year and wur backdated ti April.

Then again, I'm officially old!

[Finger Poking]

Lets just face facts.

The LABOUR Party are all Wank*rs and the sooner they do the decent thing and jump on the sword, the better.

Wan*ers I tell you. No respect. Nothing. Loony Jocks & Trogs the lot of them. Wa*kers.

[Twon]

Not sure what you are trying to say there, FP! Don't sit on the fence next time.

Come on MOD, what's it to be: RPI or CPI?

[higthepig]

We have just been sent the following missive:

From the Deputy Chief of Staff (Personnel). There is much speculation about the recommendations of the AFPRB 2009 and, in particular, the nature of any pay award. The government is considering the AFPRB 2009 recommendations very carefully and an announcement is expected very soon. The current levels of service and wider public interest in these recommendations is well understood, but I would urge all Service Personnel to be patient in the meantime.

Don't forget, any day not in uniform, is a day wasted. I don't want a pay rise, in fact I think I should be paying for the privilege of serving, forget Poets Day, I’m planning on working all weekend just for the fun of it.

[Lord Elpus]

Great leadership from Deputy Chief of Staff (Personnel). Mus'nt grumble, its a priviliage to serve NuLab, mus'nt upset them incase they give us nothing!!

Absolutely had it with this government. Dithering, shambolic and treating those at the sharp end of their failed foreign policy with utter contempt.

Lets face facts; CPI in Sept 08=5% so we should get around that mark, shouldnt we?:rolleyes:

The economy is proper fecked, the Govenor of the Bank of England has told Broon & his Darling to stop spending cash and no more tax cuts. Head of the EU has said its reckless for Govt's to try to spend our way out of trouble....

Que more dithering on release of the AFPRB, I perceive the mother of all shaftings coming on.

All public sector workers, will get a below inflation pay rise, ourselves included, however, I think we will get marginally more than nurses, police and the fire shirkers. This will be dressed up as a 'special case for the armed forces' due to Herrick/Telic, as they are 'the best in the world' (as its suits NuLab's doublespeak to say so). Off course, this will be offset by above average Food/SLA/FQ charges.

Our 'leaders' will be placated by Uncle Gordy giving them a bit of praise and a wee pat on the head and we will be told not to whinge, or to paraphrase our ex-CinC STC/Air, "....if you dont want to go to Glasgow, get off the train".

Should people start writing to their MP demanding answers?

[BEagle]

There is much speculation about the recommendations of the AFPRB 2009 and, in particular, the nature of any pay award.

No $hit, Sherlock.

Did you chaps note the word in bold font? 'Any' implies that it is not certain....

It really is time to get rid of nuLabor - there must be a vote of no confidence and a General Election soon, surely?

[White Noise]

Or a military coup

[Roland Pulfrew]

Ladies and Gents

Instead of moaning on here why not use this service (http://www.writetothem.com/)to write to your MP asking them to apply pressure to the Govt to find out why the AFPRB hasn't been released and why the Armed Forces pay award hasn't been announced yet?

If you quote LFFC dates for previous announcements that will give your MP more ammunition.

Over to you.

[The Masked Geek]

2009 DIN 08-007 details the new rates of SFA and non-PAYD messing charges.

[1.3VStall]

Or Guy Fawkes II!

[The Masked Geek]

Or Conficker I:

Leaked memo says Conficker pwns Parliament ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/27/conficker_parliament_infection/)

[sarsteph]

2009 DIN 08-007 details the new rates of SFA and non-PAYD messing charges

I've just picked myself up off the floor after reading that DIN, where it said that the charge for my type of quarter would be £26/day. :eek:

After asking a colleague to start my heart again with a little CPR, I checked the title of the DIN - and, thank God, it only applies to non-entitled and international personnel. :uhoh:

Panic over...for now.

[The Masked Geek]

Me too.

It was touch and go as to whether I warned you all. Guess the evil me won that battle. :E

[Brown Job]

But, did you notice the % increases? 3.9% accommodation and 5.6% food. Those % haven't been plucked from thin air ................

[VinRouge]

3.9% for accommodation!!?!?!

Dont they know house prices are down around 25% and rents down 15% on last year?

Pay cut in all but name.

If they switch from CPI to RPI it will be a disgrace. We had to put up with sub-inflationary pay rises in the boom years whilst the public sector is still receiving around 3.5% TODAY. Anything less than 3.2% will be an insult. The cut in vat rate was nothing other than a direct fiddle of the inflation figures. :hmm:

[spheroid]

Dont they know house prices are down around 25% and rents down 15% on last year

Not exactly true.... I am a lanlord and I have increased the rent on the properties I own...... BUt you asre correct in stating that it is in fact a pay cut rather than a pay rise.

[airborne_artist]

Spheroid:

BBC NEWS | Business | Tenants 'haggling' as rents fall (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7963271.stm)

[SidHolding]

I think Daniel Hannan MEP has Broon bang to rights........:ok:

YouTube - Daniel Hannan MEP: The devalued Prime Minister of a devalued Government (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94lW6Y4tBXs)

I'm expecting a modest 2%, but if they put their hands up and admit they've got it all wrong and we're in a dire situation, I'll not argue if we get nowt, providing all charges are also frozen at 08/09 levels. Not announcing anything yet, and it looking like 30th March at the earliest, is utter comtempt for all of us in the Armed Forces!! :mad:

[JackRyan]

Isn't this getting a bit like Russia? Are we actually going to get paid next month?

[gingergreeny]

Hats off to our masters at the speed with which they anounce 2000 more troops to the sand pit.If only everything in life was as quick!

[Finger Poking]

There is something else we have all missed.

Yes the AFPRB announcment is later than ever.

But when was the last budget announced in April instead of Mid March?

They haven't got a clue..... Get the Un-Elected, Scotish Moron Out before this country goes the same way as Woolworth's!

Just an observation.

[Pure Pursuit]

JPA is showing a pre loaded basic pay rate of 2.8% more for april than is currently on there for march. That is your basic rate of pay not including x factor, which is 14% of whatever you get paid as you basic rate. It is not anticipated that x factor is rising this year. They could easily reprogram this rate of pay to another (lower) one but it is very likely that that is what we are getting and it is just the politicians dragging the feet announcing it for some reason.

A Sgt Adminer posted the above on E goat earlier.

[The Old Fat One]

Re the post above...

Fascinating, has a JPA leakage/Pprune combination just spotted something the government are clearly desperate to stage manage?

This one's worth watching....

[Gnd]

Пролетарии всех стран, соединяйтесь!

Made you smile but we should do this!:ugh:

[BEagle]

Posting Marxist slogans on a well-known military-used website?

That should attract the attention of the black Omega brigade.....:uhoh:

[Gnd]

No, they didn't get any pay info so are looking the other way.

[spheroid]

The 2.8% pay rise is fine but like previous prooners have stated if Food & Accomm goes up by 3.9% then thats a pay cut. Despite that, I think that the 2.8% pay rise is welcome and there are many people in this country who would love a 2.8% pay rise...we should be thankful of small mercies

[The Duke of Leinster]

The 2.8% pay rise is fine but like previous prooners have stated if Food & Accomm goes up by 3.9% then thats a pay cut.

Spheroid - This only holds true if all your pay is spent on food and accom.

[November4]

The 2.8% pay rise is fine but like previous prooners have stated if Food & Accomm goes up by 3.9% then thats a pay cut.

Er no....thats 2.8% on your salary and 3.9% of Food and Accom - whatever the current charge for that is.

Eg Sgt on £33,274 plus 2.8% means an extra £931

Can't find food and accom charges ATM but say £300 per month then an increase of 3.9% means an extra £140 per year.

So overal increase of £791 a year - not what I would call a pay cut based on simple percentages.

[VinRouge]

It is a pay cut; CPI is at 3.2% currently, has been above 3% for the past 12 months and therefore a 3.2% pay rise with rises in accomodation and food above inflaton is thus a pay cut...

the £931 is to counteract the devaluation in the pound over the pst 12 months. You cant consider that with above inflation accom charges and not call it a paycut I am afraid.

[airborne_artist]

It is a pay cut; CPI is at 3.2% currently

And the CPI is itself just a statistic - junior NCOs with a young family may well see about double the rate of CPI in their own shopping basket - food, gas/electricity and many other essential/basic/weekly items have gone up by far more than CPI. CPI is being held down by the falls in price of consumer durables (furniture, electronics, white goods etc.) which may not be such a large part of their annual expenditure as the CPI calculates.

[enginesuck]

Tell me about it as a JNCO with wife 2.4 kids etc etc I guestimate im about 15% worse off than this time last year with shopping bills, insurance costs and loss of savings interest. Ill take whatever i can get payrise wise, every little helps. At this rate ill be shopping at Aldi soon.

Dont even get me started on my quarter charges.

[spheroid]

How much is it to rent a Quarter these days...?

[22/7 Master]

Right - to clear some things up.

AFPRB recommendation is based on the Sept RPI figure.

This was 5.1%. Hence state pension and AF pension increases of 5%.

CPI is a worthless figure. Nu Labia invented it to give a false impression of inflation in the housing boom.

So a payrise of 2.8% is once again a sub-RPI payrise, the same as the last 10years. Armed Forces standard of living has reduced drastically in this time.

This is why you will see brickies, labourers and even dole-ies with better standards of living than some in the military (the self-employed, 'self-assessment' tax dodging sector has thrived, literally at our expense).

Food prices soaring, council tax up by 3.2%, fuel on the way back up and Broon gives us a pittance. The only consolation (to me) is that interest rates will have to go up to stave off real-world inflation. The current 0.5% rate helps only the bankers. Keeping them at this rate is now impossible.

F*ck New Labia and the 'non-dom' section of society who have creamed off the riches of the longest period of sustained growth into their own pockets with no benefit to the UK. In the same period Norway banked £200Bn into thier state trust fund. Ours has gone in bonusses and local government diversity advisors.

Bugger.

Now, did somebody mention something about a coup.

[November4]

Sorry maybe I didn't make what I was saying clear enough but based on the 2.8% rise in pay and 3.9% increase in Food and Accom - The pay WILL go up and so it is a rise based on simple percentages. Obviously not taking into account RPI/CPI/Inflation %s.

[cazatou]

TG

I am retired and I live overseas so I only get a view of UK Forces commitments from News Broadcasts. It would seem from your post that I have missed something important, something that shows just how overstretched UK Forces are.

Please enlighten me; just how many BAe personnel are engaged on active service in the front line alongside British Military Personnel?

EDIT

It appears that TG has removed his "Contribution"

[The Nip]

Sorry, being a bit simple but I thought we would only see a pay rise at the end of April. :confused: Why would it be noticeable in March pay?

[Pure Pursuit]

Having Pm'd the chap who posted the info on E-goat, it would appear that he has seen it as an adminer & not in the normal pay run notices.

[Grabbers]

Surely there must be someone out there who knows what is going on. Why not grab yourself a nice anonymous PPRuNe user name and give us the gen? Your troops need you. This issue is now less about the 'award' announcement and more about the perceived contempt with which the Gov't treat the UK Military.

If the decisions have been made then we should know, do you not agree Sir?

Hell, you could even pm me and I would announce it on your behalf :ok:.

[LauraWC]

2.7 percent!!! for SAC's anyway!

[spheroid]

There you go then.....2.7% it is. Which is a pay cut.

[LauraWC]

Seems to be 3.7% for FS's though!

[Ginger Beer]

Are these %'s pucker?

Can someone else confirm or reference these?

Ginge

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Anyone else feel a bit let down that the only way we're finding out about our pay "rise" is by waiting for adminners to post details on an internet forum...?

Very glad people are choosing to share the news, but I would have expected some sort of announcement. I'm quite nervous that I don't know how much money I'll earn on Wednesday, or how much my quarter will cost!

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

I'm quite nervous that I don't know how much money I'll earn on Wednesday, or how much my quarter will cost!

Really? Quite nervous?

I'd probably place myself in the 'mildly curious' bracket.

[LauraWC]

The %'s are what JPA is saying for annual salaries from Apr 09 onwards - but then when has JPA EVER been correct before?!

[Sgt.Slabber]

On the BBC News website, but no link as yet:

"LATEST: MPs to receive pay rise of 2.33% from 1 April, Senior Salaries Pay Body says"

Does the Senior Salaries Pay Body cover AVM and above?
What about the rest of the Forces? Any lack of announcement today reinforces the utter contempt this current "administration" has for the Armed Forces.

[BEagle]

MPs are to receive a pay rise of 2.33% w.e.f 1 Apr 2009......:(

Should be able to rent their own porn videos now, without needing to claim them on expenses....:=

[FarWest]

Here's the link to the MP's Pay Rise:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/MPs...%25_From_April (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/MPs-Salaries-To-Rise-By-233-From-April/Article/200903415251916?lpos=Home_First_Poilitics_Article_Teaser_Reg i_1&lid=ARTICLE_15251916_MPs_Salaries_To_Rise_By_2.33%25_From_Ap ril)

[scribbler1]

well i would expect something to follow soonish! see the new DIN thats out 2009DIN08-007 there quick to take money from us!!!!

Be nice to know if the LSAP rate is going to go up!? as its 5 year review is up so all being well we could be in for a nice little treat with that!?

[daved1901]

Oral Questions to the Secretary Of State for Defence have just finished, and guess what...

the question about our payrise was asked again, the answer was:

'it will be released in the very near future'

[Lord Elpus]

An absolute disgrace of a response from the SoS. Its no longer the pay rise that is the issue, its the utter contempt we are treated with.

Roll on the General Election!!

[Alpha Whiskey]

Ah but the politicos are all sorted and as we know with this crowd, as long as their noses are firmly in the trough then life is sweet. Saw an announcement on their 2.3% pay rise on the BBC earlier, followed by "Breaking News" that David Cameron wouldn't be acceptng it.

So, either Gordo and his cronies knew nothing about the announcement of their rise or they are so inept that they can't multi-task between sorting the economic catasrophe they created and keeping a grip on Govt messaging. Either way, time for change (where have I heard that before????)

[navibrator]

Well, I have had enough and my PVR will soon be on its way. This government (if you can call it that) ensures MPs gets their money - the same day I got told to wait as the government is still considering the AFPRB report. Meanwhile, Ministers claim ridiculous amounts while I have difficulty getting £2.50 without a receipt! Well stuff it - no one cares about me so I wont bother to care about them!

[Tiger_mate]

Roll on the General Election!!

Whilst the current situation is affecting pretty much every man, woman and child in the UK, there are many....many people that will vote Labour due to family or regional tradition or in response to much hyped spin timed to coincide with the elections. As has been said many times on these forums, the public 'need' for the military is very small as we are a nation of frankly selfish individuals. Man-in-the-street would care little we we got a zero pay rise (or should that be neutral) and a rise in rents.

[Canadian Break]

Pay rise 2.8%: charges up circa 3.7%

[Lord Elpus]

Nail on head Tiger Mate, as long as they can overdose on cheap Alcopops & KFC and a daily fix of Jeremy Kyle, they dont give two hoots about the military.

I come from one of the regional/family ties that you talk about. Some of the sharper ones are finally realising that the last 12 yrs have been nothing but smoke & mirrors.

Maybe this govt realise their time is up. Their heads will be in the trough for the next 12 months till the party is over, treat the Forces with contempt over the announcement of AFPRB 09, abandon pay mechanisms (Sept 08 RPI) and then shaft them with a below inflation pay rise, after all, 'there are no votes in defence'!

I cannot understand why the opposition parties are not giving the govt a hard time of this. Surely, there is easy political capital to be made from this?

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

There are votes in defence - mine and many others. Quite aside from those currently serving, and their families and friends, there are the many (tens of thousands of) of us who served before.

You are not and never have been alone.

[wetdreamdriver]

Don't forget Guys, whichever party wins the election, the government still stays the same!!:}

[Lord Elpus]

FFF,

Your quite right and hopefully, it will make a difference. If you ever have the misfortune of chatting to NuLab supporters/attivists well away form any military bases, this is the mantra you often hear.

[advocatusDIABOLI]

HELP JORNOs...... For the Love of God, Break this story! Oh, Too late. Or are you 'also held' under Nu Labur's grasp?

Advo

[Poacher On The Turn]

Canadian,
Word from MoD today agrees; 2.8% it is then. Interesting to note that Police pension (father-in-law!) increase is 5% based on Sep 08 RPI. Where is the sense in that?

[advocatusDIABOLI]

2.8% Official?

Ask anyone..... ?apart from Top......?

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Just a starter:

'Gov in MOD Troop Pay Blunder'

'Gov get set, as troops get shot'

'Late on parade!- Gov Can't or Won't Pay Soldiers'

Advo

[Bannock]

House of Commons Order of Business Tuesday 31 March 2009
Written Ministerial Statements to be made today
Statement #9. Secretary of State for Defence: Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body—Response to recommendations.


Brace Brace Brace !!

[The Masked Geek]

Secretary of State for Defence: Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body—Response to government rehashed recommendations.



Slight correction.

[BEagle]

From FT.com:

The government will today announce its long-awaited response to the pay recommendations for 2009-10 from the senior salaries review body – affecting the senior military, senior National Health Service managers, the judiciary and senior civil servants – the armed forces pay review body and the doctors and dentists review body. Mr Brown ordered all ministers to reject a 2.33 per cent pay increase for MPs for this financial year, announced on Monday, as well as freezing ministerial salaries. MPs’ pay will rise from £63,291 to £64,766.

“Their pay has been frozen. That’s the right thing to do when people are suffering in the economy,” Mr Brown told a Downing Street press conference. “I made that decision myself and ministers have supported that decision.”

Are there any 'Al Pollock' type folk left in the RAF? Remember his Tower Bridge and Houses of Parliament fly-by on 4 Apr 1968.....:E That certainly got the government's attention!!

[aw ditor]

Story was Al Pollock "wired" every USAF base in East Anglia (lots' then) on his way to the Thames!

[RAF_SARGE]

2.8% all Ranks up to Brigadier.

Accom etc up 3.7%

Official. Signal in my paw. Can be released from 12.00 today.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Any news on specialist pay in it?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Report available from the OME here, by the looks of things! (http://www.ome.uk.com/review.cfm?body=3)

Key Recommendations:

A 2.8 per cent increase in military salaries;
Targeted pay measures including:
• A 5 per cent minimum pay increase on promotion to OR6;
• New Commitment Bonuses and associated transitional arrangements;
• A reduction in the qualifying periods for Longer Separation Allowance;
• New pay spines and Specialist Pay for Service Nurses;
• A new RN Clearance Divers’ pay spine and two new supplementary rates
of Diving Pay for EOD qualified Divers; and
• Targeted increases to Hydrographic Pay;
A 2.8 per cent increase in Specialist Pay, Compensatory Allowances and
Reserves’ Bounties; and
A 3.7 per cent increase to Grade 1 SFA/SLA rental charges and lower
graduated increases below Grade 1, a further phased increase to garage rent
and a Daily Food Charge of £4.07.

[Tiger_mate]

In line with the Armed Forces' Pay Review Body (AFPRB) recommendations, the basic military salary for officers and all other ranks will increase by 2.8 per cent, Defence Secretary John Hutton announced today, Wednesday 31 March 2009.

In addition, the rates of Specialist Pay (including Flying Pay, Submarine Pay and Diving Pay) will also increase by 2.8 per cent.

The Government has also accepted the AFPRB recommendations on a number of targeted financial measures, including a minimum pay increase on promotion to the rank of Sergeant and Petty Officer of 5 per cent and a reduction in the qualifying period between each level of Longer Separation Allowance.

The AFPRB has also endorsed the improved Commitment Bonus arrangements.

Announcing this year's pay review today Mr Hutton said:

"The 2009 Report of the Armed Forces' Pay Review Body has now been published. I wish to express my thanks to the Chairman and members of the Review Body for their Report. I am pleased to confirm that the AFPRB's recommendations are to be accepted in full, with implementation effective from 1 April 2009."

Copies of the Armed Forces' Pay Review Body Report are available in the Vote Office and the Library of the House.

The MPs 2.3% Pay Rise got negative press in todays newspapers, which will make for interesting headlines tomorrow.[/

[JackRyan]

It might have been easier to say I am pleased to confirm that the AFPRB's recommendations are to be accepted in full, with implementation effective from tomorrow.

[Tiger_mate]

2009 PAS Sky Gods rates:
*Rumoured change in capping bars has not happened*

Table 1.8: Recommended Professional Aviator Pay Spine
Increment Level Military salary
£
Level 35 76,103
Level 34 75,060
Level 33 74,012
Level 32 72,968
Level 31 71,928
Level 30a 70,876
Level 29 69,840
Level 28b 68,793
Level 27 67,741
Level 26 66,705
Level 25 65,653
Level 24 64,613
Level 23 63,646
Level 22c 62,433
Level 21 61,273
Level 20d 60,105
Level 19 58,948
Level 18 57,788
Level 17 56,628
Level 16e 55,468
Level 15 54,307
Level 14 53,147
Level 13 51,979
Level 12f 50,823
Level 11 49,662
Level 10 48,996
Level 9 48,233
Level 8 47,462
Level 7 46,699
Level 6 45,933
Level 5 45,162
Level 4 44,395
Level 3 43,628
Level 2 42,857
Level 1 42,087

a Weapon Systems Officers (Navigators) cannot progress beyond Increment Level 30.
b Rear Crew cannot progress beyond Increment Level 28.
c NCO Pilots cannot progress beyond Increment Level 22.
d RAF Non-Commissioned Master Aircrew cannot progress beyond Increment Level 20.
e RAF Non-Commissioned Aircrew Flight Sergeants cannot progress beyond Increment Level 16.
f RAF Non-Commissioned Aircrew Sergeants cannot progress beyond Increment Level 12.

[LauraWC]

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Defence Policy and Business | 2.8% pay rise for Armed Forces (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/28PayRiseForArmedForces.htm)

[Jumping_Jack]

2.8% my arse...my pay increase works out at 1.53%. :(

[TMJ]

Also if the levels have reduced to 240 days why is level 1 still 340 days?



That's the top end of level 1, not the bottom end: "up to 340 days qualifying separation" (my emphasis). Therefore, level 1 is now 240-340 days rather than 300-x days (for x=whatever the old top of the band was).

[Mr-AEO]

I'm not sure where the 2.8% 'in line with other public sectors' bit comes from? Most of the Strawbs that work with me picked up 13% over 3 years which is a tadge over 4%.

2.8% is less than the rise of my council tax this year (2.9%) which my local government is giving itself celebratory masturbations over.

Lets face it chaps/chapesses, 2.8% is an absolutely crap rise no matter what employment you are in when the cost of living is the way it is.

I suspect those with Sin service accom etc will see a correspondng rise in food and accom to offset the pay award:hmm:

[cazatou]

Just thought I'd mention that when I joined as an Officer Cadet in 1965 my gross pay was 17s3d (86.25p) per day before Tax and National Insurance.

:hmm:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Caz,

Interesting as it is didn't you already tell us that at post #213 on the 17th March :confused:

[Winch-control]

Yep Caz, have another glass!

[Hot Charlie]

From the MOD website:

Copies of the Armed Forces' Pay Review Body Report are available in the Vote Office and the Library of the House.

That's useful, I'll just get the train now. Can we have the pdf version please. It's not like they've only had the report five minutes.

[edit]Leon, thanks for the link.:)

[Lima Juliet]

Pads

I'm with you on this - 2.8% is far better than I expected (about £5.90 a day better off). Having just read the whole thing back to front the good news is that they are hinting that all aircrew below the rank of Wg Cdr will go onto PAS and that WSOs will have the level-bar removed - now if that comes off then that will be a significant result for JOs and Sqn Ldrs.

By the way the link to the document is here: http://www.ome.uk.com/downloads/AFPRB%2038th%20Report%202009.pdf

Now what can I spend £5.90 on...

LJ

[whitenoise]

:ugh:PAS is one thing but look at the increase for RN Divers. Is that a substantial increase for them...

Level 1 PO 44 072
Level 7 PO 49 679
Level 1 CPO 49 703
Level 9 CPO 55 878
Level 1 WO1 54 729
Level 7 WO1 59 310

Poor old NCA Aircrew....

[Willard Whyte]

Now what can I spend £5.90 on...

A perfectly drinkable bottle of wine.

[Winch-control]

Yep but that is because there are only like 12 RN divers left in the Universe!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

This poor old NCA is quite happy with his lot :ok:

[Willard Whyte]

Lest we forget the 20% tax threshold rises from £6035 to £6475, 40% tax threshold rises from £34.8K to £37.4K. OK, top NI t/h up a fair bit too, but at least it's 'only' at 11%.

Net gain is circa £340 p/a, on top of any pay rise, assuming you were, and still are, paying 40%

[Winch-control]

Now as I am paid my pension in pounds, but convert and send them to me in Oz dollars, am I better or worse off, given the present UK and OZ bank rates and the international exchange rate? Or should I just bite the proverbial bullet and return to the UK to support the government in watching porn?!

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Found this in the renention/FRI bit

The 2009 periodic review of Flying
Pay will provide the vehicle for the market assessment, a reappraisal of the effectiveness
of all proposed solutions and further analysis of the single-Service manning positions

So what are they going to do with FP then? Sounds like if airline recruitment starts again and guys start to leave...........

Will they make it pensionable?

They reckon we are going to be 20% down on required strength of RAF pilots by 2011. Could make for some interesting offers??

Thoughts anyone

[SlopJockey]

Paragraph 2.16 Page 18

"The Secretary of State wrote to us on 13 January 2009, to set out the Government's view on the impact of the developing economic conditions. He pointed to forecasts of continuing recession in 2009 with rapidly falling inflation and a weakening labour market. The letter emphasised the Government's fiscal measures to support the economy and its priority to ensure sustainability of public finances. The Secretary of State commented upon the relative attractiveness of public sector employment and his confidence that the "excellent" Armed Forces' package will lead to improved recruitment and retention in the coming months with some improvement already seen in the latter part of 2008. Finally the Secretary of State commented on the importance of a fair pay award that ensured sufficient resources for other parts of the package and emphasised that awards above the paybill assumptions would require compensating cuts to other Defence priorities"

I read that as "you will restrict the payrise even if you think a greater rise is justifiable as it will cost elsewhere. We cannot afford anything after bailing out all the wasters from the banks and as usual our troops can take a kicking!!" :*

SJ

[The Old Fat One]

So post 312 on 27 March spot on then. Well done that man! (or miss)

[Sentry Agitator]

Has anyone else noticed that the pay award seems to have been overshadowed by the Iraq handover news. I guess that was what they (.gov) were hoping for.

I for one think we've been lucky when you consider so many of the population have frozen or cut their pay just so they can stay in employment.

SA

[Belle and Sebastian]

I see they're making a big deal about decreasing the LSA level increments from 300 days to 240 days in line with what they say is a typical maximum 6 month deployment plus workup. Well I may be way off, especially with regards to the army but 8 months away per det (Including training) to get the new level with the retention of the 10 day qualifying period (ie you can't go home at weekends during training and you can't do multiple short pieces of workup training) seems a bit steep.

Quote:
Changing from a 300 to a 240 day qualifying period between levels would better reflect common operational tours of up to six months (plus the required pre-operational training) thereby providing a step change in compensation between each major deployment.
Also if the levels have reduced to 240 days why is level 1 still 340 days?

Quote:
COMPENSATORY ALLOWANCES
LONGER SEPARATION ALLOWANCE Rate
£ per day
Level 1 (up to 340 days qualifying separation) 6.56
Level 2 (341-580 days qualifying separation) 10.25
Level 3 (581-820) 13.96
Level 4 (821-1060) 15.32
Level 5 (1061-1300) 16.50
Level 6 (1301-1540) 17.68
Level 7 (1541-1780) 18.84
Level 8 (1781-2020) 20.62
Level 9 (2021-2260) 21.80
Level 10 (2261-2500) 22.99
Level 11 (2501-2740) 24.16
Level 12 (2741-2980) 25.34
Level 13 (2981-3220) 26.51
Level 14 (3221+) 27.69
Ant
http://static.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=4827825)
IIRC......A few AFPRBs ago, when they introduced these revised rates and conditions, they gave everybody who was in the mob a 'standard' 100 days as a starter. New recruits who hadn't depolyed were to start on zero.

[dogstar2]

I noticed tucked in the back of the report that flying pay will be quite significantly reduced if not in a flying related post. What exactly does that mean? One has no power over where one is posted so surely this is not quite right.

There does not seem to be too much of an incentive to stay in on the career stream if this is the case - especially if one should be promoted beyond Lt Cdr/Major/Sqn Ldr.

[Talk Reaction]

IIRC the flying pay thing is not too much of a bother in the RAF/RN as long as you don't start volunteering for ground tours. It's more of a vehicle to shaft the AAC under the pretence of stopping Rupert who does his pilots tour then goes back to a non flying career. Or something....

[day1-week1]

"I noticed tucked in the back of the report that flying pay will be quite significantly reduced if not in a flying related post. What exactly does that mean? One has no power over where one is posted so surely this is not quite right.

There does not seem to be too much of an incentive to stay in on the career stream if this is the case - especially if one should be promoted beyond Lt Cdr/Major/Sqn Ldr."

Dogstar

I couldn't find any change ref non flying relate job, as it stands, the first three years on 100% and decreases thereafter. The only gottcha is it doesn't count as time served in flying job.

If I've missed it, could you give the para number, etc

[Finger Poking]

"The Secretary of State wrote to us on 13 January 2009, to set out the Government's view on the impact of the developing economic conditions. He pointed to forecasts of continuing recession in 2009 with rapidly falling inflation and a weakening labour market. The letter emphasised the Government's fiscal measures to support the economy and its priority to ensure sustainability of public finances. The Secretary of State commented upon the relative attractiveness of public sector employment and his confidence that the "excellent" Armed Forces' package will lead to improved recruitment and retention in the coming months with some improvement already seen in the latter part of 2008. Finally the Secretary of State commented on the importance of a fair pay award that ensured sufficient resources for other parts of the package and emphasised that awards above the paybill assumptions would require compensating cuts to other Defence priorities"

What is the point in having an INDEPENDANT PAY REVIEW BODY if this puppet of the UN-ELECTED JOCK PM can basically, with one swoop, 'CAP' whatever they were thinking. Laughable.

I also note in The Online 'BUN' today, regarding the Pay Increase-

Our Boys are coming home | The Sun |News|Campaigns|Our Boys (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/article2353340.ece)

Now, I have read the 38th AFPRB and can find no mention of this recommended 2.6% that has been increased to 2.8%. I haven't heard any ministerial spin either so I assume its just a case of the 'Bun' again getting it wrong.

No surprise for the Gutter Press.

[Scribbly]

Very interesting reading....I might need some help with my maths here...

"During 2007-08, 637 properties were upgraded to “Standard 1 for Condition”, against a target of 600. Although almost 60 per cent of SFA stock in Great Britain is now classed as “Standard 1 for Condition”, because of differences in the criteria for “Standard for Condition” and “Grade for Charges”, just 18 per cent of current stock is “Grade 1 for Charges”. A further 600 upgrades are planned for 2008-09 at a cost of £38 million, with 800 planned in each of 2009-10 and 2010-11, at an annual cost of £48 million. We were concerned to learn in oral evidence with the Chief Executive of Defence Estates that the level of funding would never be enough to fully meet objectives and that the current improvement programme equated to each SFA unit getting a major upgrade every 70 years. "

If 600 properties are planned to be upgraded next year at a cost of 38 million, I make that 63k per property. Has anyone who has had it done recently reckon they've had their money's worth???

[SirToppamHat]

For £63K, you could knock many of them down and re-build from scratch (it always astonished me how much the SLAM blocks cost given the land was free).

I have been through the process twice. In Norwich, the actual builders showed us the paperwork that proved the kitchens cost £600 each, including the demolition, re-plastering (from brick) and electrical work (the plugs didn't work because they wired them up wrong!) - mind you, those prices were at 1998-2001.

Give me £63K and I will make a healthy profit and bring the house up to standard, including getting rid of the half inch gap in the 'double-glazed' windows.

Unfortunately, DHE or whatever it's called now, is still populated by feckwits, right to the top. The contractors see them coming and MoD is taken to the cleaners AGAIN.

Back to the thread; we got sent a nice email today with a link to the AFPRB Report and a request for feedback to the Stn Cdr (to be filtered by some WO or other). I was going to respond, but the email clearly stated that responses would only be accepted in the correct format. The 'correct format' required one to start by stating 3 positive aspects of the Report, at which point I gave up. Can any one out there help?

[ShortFatOne]

1. We got a pay rise.
2. We've got a job for the next 355 days, probably.
3. We got a pay rise.

Sorry, cynical I know, but there's plenty out there that are far worse of than most of us and I don't mean the 'feckless' minority.

:ok:

SFO

[14greens]

Well said that man in the last post!!!!!

Bloody lucky to get a raise in the current climate
And bloody lucky to still have a job
I aint complaining

[Blighter Pilot]

Hear Hear:D

Bloody lucky in the current climate to get any rise!

We in the military should be thankful for our job security at the moment.

[spheroid]

Nope...there are definately 3 reasons there.

1. Pay rise
2. Gotta job
3. Pay rise...

thats 3

[L1A2 discharged]

So, for the opportunity to be sent to strange and exotic places, at a moments notice on the whim of full time politicians who have never held a real job, you are accepting the paltry rise given.

Against a backdrop of a previous entitlement to rises inline with inflation at a stated date which has been used to reduce military pay against the comparitors, at the calculation date it was in the region of 5%.

How far behind the index established after the 1978 'adjustment' is the military package?

The job is not secure - in as far as your lives are at risk, on ops or in training.
The 2.8% top line is much reduced by the increased charges.

Now as a civvy taxpayer I still expect the military to be granted a proper set of pay and conditions. It has patently not been granted that at this time.


I wish you well under this (or any) set of lying cheating pornographers agents.

[Biggus]

First of all, any comments I am about to make are not because I consider the 2.8% pay rise either too big or too small, they are simply a reflection of one particular comment that has been made.

As for the military having job security, it might well be argued that we do. However, given that the next government, of whichever party, is going to have to cut back on public expenditure in order to repay the billions that have been borrowed, and given that the military is not a sacred cow, what price a Defence review leading to further cuts in personnel, in the next year or two....

No doubt following on from comments about how "withdrawing from a successful intervention in Iraq has allowed force reductions", and "modern, more effective equipment means less actual personnel are needed", etc, etc...

Just a thought.....

[Farfrompuken]

Biggus,

with you on that one. El Gordo has his excuse to hack away now we're scaling down to 1 medium sized op. Remember "A defence pound is a wasted pound"?

We should be happy that we have a relatively secure job, however we've long lagged behind inflation so 2.8% is below par for the course except....

UK Plc is bankrupt! Where's the money coming from?? From within existing budgets from what I could read, so something will give....

[anita gofradump]

Back to the thread; we got sent a nice email today with a link to the AFPRB Report and a request for feedback to the Stn Cdr (to be filtered by some WO or other).If you do decide to complete the response, just send it direct to the person who wants the information (their name is on the original request and their email address can be found using the 'find' function in Outlook).

Filter indeed!

[MaroonMan4]

No one has still answered my original question regarding pay rises and pensions....

And yet many posters are subscribing to the 'thank God that we received a pay rise and that we should be happy with our job security' philosophy.

Is this really true? Should I be grateful and humble in the current economic climate.

Please can someone show me the pay bonuses and higher than Public Sector salary/bonuses in my pay slips that those in the city have been receiving since approximately 1993?

I have loyally worked the same routine for the same modest 'inflation linked' pay for many years and have watched the Private Sector bask in eye wartering staggering bonuses (one example of a middle management (Young Officer/WO/SNCO level) bonus of £750,000. One years bonus!

So just because the Private Sector has not invested these bonuses and extra wealth and quite happily had the 'good times' of champagne, exotic holidays, fast cars and second/third homes, then why should I be sat here in my pretty modest married quarter feelING sorry for them, or being prompted to be thankful and gracious for my lot?

Whether it is Bond or Met Police or the Algerian SAR contract or the SAR H contract just around the corner or the MFTS contract or the raft of other civilian opportunities out there - my civilian sector is not equatable to that of the Finance Industry or the Car Industry, so why should I compare my position to theirs?

When someone with greater brain space than me answers this question then I will be 'humbled' and 'thankful'.

[Mister-T]

Maybe I am being a tad naive here Maroonman, are you saying that nobody at PAS, SAR, or even the Airlines got a 750k bonus or even a tuppence halfpenny bonus so how can your payrise be comparable?

We are Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen (umm and Airwomen?) and not big shot city slickers, I agree. But there are also a huge number of workers from Honda, Bombadier etc etc that I don't recall hearing of huge bonuses that are now facing a queue with a UB40?

For what its worth I like you don't think I should feel humble but I can see the other sides point of view.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I work and have worked in the public sector, joins RAF at 16 1/2 and still in at 51, all of my working life and as such I only ever expect a pay rise each year that aligns itself with inflation, give or take an inch.

As such I really could not give a flying **** what the fat cats in the city have or currently earn. In the same way I have absolutely no envy of what pilots and senior officers earn, what any anyone else makes is simply not on my radar.

I am more than happy with my 2.8% which is less than my sons 4% as a British Gas Technician but plenty for me. I suspect if people were more concerned with what was in their own wage packet each month as opposed to bitching about how others get more life would be far simpler.

[The Old Fat One]

SFP

Top post

[MaroonMan4]

Seldom,

I think that you may have misconstrued my post - although not quite 51 (!) and still serving I have been around a bit. I totally agree with you though expectations being managed each year for me with a round about inflation pay rise per month.

But, on this thread and in my local and the 'twitters' look at my pay rise and attempt to make me feel guilty.

Closely allied to this I believe that al of this recession is going to be used as an excuse - an excuse to water down or ignore the 2009 Flying Pay Review (how convienient it is this particular year!) - how long have we been waiting for flying pay to be pensionable which balances a playing field between pure 'spec aircrew' and career officers. An excuse to 'review' our final salary pensions and excuse to review CEA.

I am happy in my world, believe in Queen and Country and more importantly enjoy the people I work with.

But Seldom, as quick as this economy went belly up in September I believe that just as quickly our current Prime Minister and his esteemed colleagues will be syphoning money away from defence, and that my friend does potentially include your pension that (I would suggest) has been one of the reasons why you have been so content in your many years of service not to be so concerned about your pay rises etc.

I return to my original point, that if we in the Armed Forces start to feel as though we should be lucky to have a job, or fortunate to get a pay rise, then the same philosophy will be seen as a green light by those that are now desperate (and I mean desperate) to save money and will happily take the 'message' that the H M Forces can take a bit of scrimping and saving as they are so thankful that they even have a job.

[kkbuk]

Farfrompuken, the government will provide the cash by 'quantative easing', that is printing money just like Germany after the 1st World War, also known as devaluation of the currency. But, as Harold Wilson once said, "It will not affect the pound in your pocket!"

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I seem to remember some fact bandied around that our salaries are abated by X% in order to provide for our pensions. Now, I'm fully aware that the government hasn't actually been sensibly pooling this X% for years to provide for us, but if they cut our pension in any way, can we expect some part of this X% to be provided as an immediate pay rise in lieu?

[Farfrompuken]

the government will provide the cash by 'quantative easing'

1. No. The government aims to increase public borrowing ad-infinitum which will make the tax burden even more intolerable for decades to come. Tax which will come from a nation that has 25% of jobs in the public sector and fewer jobs in manufacturing and heavy industry than we should.....:\

2. Quantitative easing is intended to stimulate spending by increasing available cedit (possibly boosting tax revenues) but will devalue the pound and not hugely affect the defence budget.

3. So where IS the money coming from?

[Blighter Pilot]

Don't see how they can cut our pensions - is that not a change in terms of service relating to our final pension?

Change of pension should lead to everyone re-assessing their TOS - I'm sure that we could refuse the change? How would we stand on leaving due to a change of 'contract'

I elected to transfer to AFPS 05 and have, what I believe, is a pretty binding pension offer/forecast. How would the government go about legally changing or altering this pension which is linked to my PAS terms?

I reckon a good legal team could tear holes in most of any planned changes - if it does happen I can see a large number of PVRs going in. Especially if the civilian airline market picks up - watch those ATPL holding military pilots rush for the door!!

Flying pay review will probably be shelved/ignored along with PAS 2009/10. If CEA is cut then the MOD will lose one of it's greatest retention schemes.

Time for this government to go - we need a strong defence-minded ruling body before our armed forces crumble and die:mad:

[spainglish]

just spent time reading forum as the suns gone down and the wine bottle is empty, realised how much i miss the crew room banter after 16 years in serious street. credit crunch is the same in spain but the weather, tapas and wine better. your still doing a good job, from an old sumpy

[philrigger]

;)

Don't see how they can cut our pensions - is that not a change in terms of service relating to our final pension?


Back in 1935 I think it was, the then Labour government cut forces wages. Was that not a change of contract? If parliament agrees I suppose they can do as they please.

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Firstly, having made several comments on this thread, I have said from the start, that I thought 1.5% was in the offing, and with that, I see 2.8% as a result!

However, as serveral other posters have explained, 2.8% does not actually relate to a pay rise, it actually relates to a pay cut (in 'real' terms). So, the 'other' angle on this thread, of doffing cap... and saying what a great deal we got is bo((ocks! (In my view).

As one poster mentioned; When the private sector are doing well, we get F-all and when they are doing poorly we get F-all! So please, mend your breaking hearts, and be happy that for once the F-all is more than the others 'Less-Than-F-all' !

As for pensions, I think you'll find that we don't have an employment 'contract' as such. Consequently (and this is certainly true for officers), we are essentially at 'her majesty's pleasure'. Bottom line, they can remove our pension as look at us. Drop our pay, cancel R-R incentives, send us ALL to Valley!!!!!! it's their (Brown's) choice.

They own the ball, it's their field, in their garden and we just got invited for tea.

If they hurt us in our (peacetime) work, sure we can claim (under HS), but be under no illusion........... we are serving military, and as such, 'servants' of the crown in the most base sense. In respect of pay and allowances........ it's totally their game, same for pensions.

ALL bets are off.

Advo

[Blighter Pilot]

Time for a change of government then:ok:

Before it's too late and everyone who feels the same leaves the services.

[Tiger_mate]

Watch out for low flying teddies if they send me to Valley!!! Might make a nice change from Coventry though :E

PAS :ok:

[advocatusDIABOLI]

PS: For any Government 'Gook', looking in on this.....

Trust me, you haven't just discovered a fool proof way of saving your Boss 15Bn. What you've seen is the way that your 'Boss' will cause the biggest 'De-mob' since 1945, and that won't be his / her plan, but it certainly will be seen (after) as your fault!

If the Gov want a professional, well educated and motivated miliatry, they have to accept the costs. If they want a conscript 'Defence Force', then they will have to accept the 'costs' of that.

They can't have both. Choose.

Advo

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Does anybody here, over the age of 30, actually think that a change in the 'Flavour' of Gov, actually changes anything?

The 'Gov' is run by faceless 'all-powerful' Civil Servants who don't change.

I personally haven't seen much positive change in 30yrs.

If any poster here, can give me 5 significant positive (Gov Dir) changes since 1999, I'll buy them a pint! (how and where to be arranged by pm!)

Advo

[AIDU]

Aren't you getting a little bit bored of posting in this thread now? We have had our pay rise for 7 days now, so let it go and move on.:rolleyes:

well educated and motivated miliatry, they have to accept the costs.Looks like you need a few quid spent on sending you to a learn direct spelling course. I am sure they will be willing to accept the costs. If not you could always use your SLC. Or failing that I am sure the FD Centre could help you.

learndirect - Maths and English (http://www.learndirect.co.uk/browse/mathsenglish/?CMP=KNC-junsfl08):ok:

[SRENNAPS]

Aren't you getting a little bit bored of posting in this thread now? We have had our pay rise for 7 days now, so let it go and move on.


AIDU,
Some here would probably like to keep the thread open so they can start moaning about not having any information on the 2010 pay award........:rolleyes:

[NP20]

Aren't you getting a little bit bored of posting in this thread now? We have had our pay rise for 7 days now, so let it go and move on

How about not reading it?

Looks like you need a few quid spent on sending you to a learn direct spelling course. I am sure they will be willing to accept the costs. If not you could always use your SLC. Or failing that I am sure the FD Centre could help you.

Ever consider that the OP needs, at most, a typing course and not an English course? Or just, unbelievably as it sounds, mistyped?

Probably not eh as that wouldn't give you the opportunity to use your sharp wit and oh so funny jibes.

[22/7 Master]

AIDU,

Like many on here my spelling on PPRUNE sometimes falls below par.

You do not seem to suffer from this problem, but do, unfortunately, appear to be a bit of a cntu.

[Grabbers]

22/7 Master

Please don't feed AIDU. I beg you.

[22/7 Master]

Grabbers,

You Know Who has been added to my Ignore List, meaning his posts no longer appear.

It's as good as Prozac - I recommend it. Go to 'User CP' (link at top left).

[spheroid]

Sunday Express | UK News :: Outrage at MoD's 'golden goodbyes' (http://www.sundayexpress.co.uk/posts/view/94631/Outrage-at-MoD-s-golden-goodbyes)-

[harrier123]

A bit of advice from a pay expert please.

While I have been bore at work I have been looking at the pay review 09. On page 61 there is a scale call 'Officers commissioned from the ranks' It has levels 1-15. It seems a silly question but who is this for? Various PSF's have different answers for this. Is is just WO's which seem strange as level one is 40k ish and most WO's would on more than this.

Thanks

[BEagle]

I've finally received my Advice of Payment from Xafinity Paymaster - and it seems that index-linked pensions have been increased by 5% this year.

So that's £26066.75 p.a. gross for 2009/10 without even needing to get out of bed.

Could be worse.

[Biggus]

5% was the RPI figure for Sept 08 - which is what increases in military pensions are index linked to, so the % rise was exactly as expected.

As for the sum involved, good for you, but smacks somewhat of gloating. I'm sure most people know how good the military pension can be. Also, just like in the wild west where there is always a faster gun somewhere, I'm sure there is someone out there in pprune land with a bigger military pension.

Are the next 4, 5, 10, etc additions to this thread simply going to be people quoting how much bigger their own military pension is.......yawn?

[cazatou]

BEagle

Given that the current Inflation Forecast gives a negative Inflation Rate for September this year, we may well be looking at a Pension cut next year.

Prudence is the watchword I believe.

Never trust a Man from KirKaldy!!

:=

[DaveyBoy]

While I have been bore at work
Unusual self-awareness from a Harrier mate :ok:

[Sloppy Link]

Harrier 123,
From the Army, if you commission from the ranks over the age of 30, you enter on Late Entry Commission rates which means that you will receive a minimum of a 5% pay rise. Clearly, this will not conveniently take you to a comparable annual rate so you move on to the next available, then continue to receive annual increments to level 15. A WO1 enters at about level 8, a WO2 about 6 or 7. We do commission SSgts who would enter at level 3 or 4 but it is not the norm. Below the age of 30 the same basic system applies but the individual will have to do the full Commissioning course at RMA Sandhurst and will enter Lt pay scales under the 5% equation. Final note, LE rates only apply at Captain level, upon promotion the individual goes on to "normal rates" but does not get incremental raises for 3 years (I think) to allow for the inequalty of rates of pay between DE and LE Majors.

Howzat?