Aer Lingus to open US base with locally recruited crews

[CarbHeatIn]

From RTE:

"Aer Lingus is extending its relationship with United Airlines on some long-haul services between Europe and the US, and has held out the prospect of forming a new joint venture company with the US airline.

The two airlines will launch a daily service between Washington and Madrid from March 2010. Additional routes may be made available from next year for services to begin in Summer 2011.

Aer Lingus said that further expansion and development of the partnership's activities will be jointly assessed and agreed by the partners and may develop into a 'broader and deeper' joint venture, in which Aer Lingus would have a controlling interest.

The airlines expect the new partnership to report a 'marginal' level of profit in the first year. Aer Lingus will provide three planes, which will be leased to the partnership, and the planes will have the Aer Lingus logo on the outside with joint branding inside.

Recruitment for the new partnership will be in the US. Tickets will be on sale in around six weeks."

How's this going to work then? Give the crews validations and a year to get their JAR licences? Or N reg aircraft?

[Tinstaafl]

Nah. Just the give the job to those who already reside in the US and hold both FAA & European/JAA ATP(L)s. Much less stuffing around.

Now who could that be ;) :E

[PT6A]

Why only a year to get the JAA? The IAA don't limit the length or number of times an individuals licence can be validated.

PT6

[Faire d'income]

Oh dear. Another round of strikes on the horizon for Aer Lingus.

Not the cleverest management are they?

[CargoOne]

The two airlines will launch a daily service between Washington and Madrid from March 2010. Additional routes may be made available from next year for services to begin in Summer 2011.

Some may wonder if either airline will be alive by March 2009, let alone Sep 2011.... :E

[411A]

Get used to it, folks.
This is exactly the likely way the new open skies agreement between the EU/USA was intended to work.
Think I'm wrong?
Wait and see...:}

[Rotorhead1026]

Or N reg aircraft?My guess is this; it's the simplest way (if the article is accurate). Interesting ... :)

[CarbHeatIn]

ALPA's response:

Statement from Captain Steve Wallach,
Chairman, United Master Executive Council
Air Line Pilots Association
Regarding United’s ‘Innovative’ Partnership
With Aer Lingus

January 22, 2009

“The day after reporting one of its worst quarterly financial results in history and after furloughing an additional 254 pilots (bringing the total to 606 pilots), United Airlines announced today that it has entered into what it calls an “innovative” partnership with Aer Lingus.

“Aer Lingus has advised the Irish press that this joint venture will operate an Aer Lingus aircraft with neither United nor Aer Lingus employees, under a separate operating certificate and under newly established wages and working conditions. Obviously, this partnership will be accomplished at the expense of United’s and Aer Lingus’ own pilots and other employees. This development, where United attempts to establish an airline operation without the use of United aircraft or employees, is nothing less than the outsourcing of jobs to an international company, and clearly demonstrates that this management continues to make business decisions without regard to its pilots and other employees.

“The United pilots are exploring every option to put an end to the company’s blatant disregard and lack of loyalty to the United Airlines brand.”

[captplaystation]

Perhaps a bit of opportunism from Aer Lingus management. :E
"Accept this, or when that nice Mr O' Leary comes back with an enhanced offer we may have to give it serious consideration" :hmm:

[FlyingTom]

Why can't we outsource the managers?

I think if you look at their pay deals they are a bit overpaid. Lets get some bob-a-job managers to run things. :)

[BigJoeRice]

"Some may wonder if either airline will be alive by March 2009, let alone September 2011...." a most prescient comment CargoOne

[sweeper]

time to get real people
look around
decide to fight it
or join the real world

hope you get it right for your circumstances!:sad:

[Loose rivets]

Nah. Just the give the job to those who already reside in the US and hold both FAA & European/JAA ATP(L)s. Much less stuffing around.

Now who could that be


Well, me actually...Ah, don't suppose they'll extend the age limit to 80 will they?

[captjns]

Will United Pilots really, really, really unite as one against this union between EI and UAL?:eek:

Will United Pilots really, really, really unite and march and hold rallys opining their views about this new union between EI and UAL?:eek:

Will United Pilots really, really, really unite and stage a job action demonstrating, NOW, they are really, really, really mad as hell and they are not going to take any more?:eek:

But wait!!! will United Airlines even be around in 2010 so United Pilots can really be united in a union of harmonic bliss?:sad:

Don't touch that keyboard... stay tuned for more edge of the seat news.;)

[Just a spotter]

Sounds rather like EI and UA co-funding a "Project Lauren" type of venture.

And as 411A says, this is exactly what is expected by the Open Skies agreement; more choice.

JAS

[Desert Diner]

From the Chicago Tribune

Aer Lingus Group PLC plans to start flights between Washington and Madrid next year in partnership with UAL Corp.'s United Airlines.

Seats on the route will be sold by both carriers, and Aer Lingus' aircraft will be used, Chief Executive Dermot Mannion said Thursday in Dublin. There will be joint branding, and the airlines will share the commercial benefits and risk equally. Flights will begin in March 2010.


More like EI is starting a MAD-IAD flight (courtesy of EU membership as well as Open Skies) and UA will code share on it. This will be no different for UA than any other code share arrangement they have.

This may be the shape of things to come, but I would be suprised if they can make this route viable.

I guess this may have been the only route that would not fall a foul of any of their Star Alliance Partners.

[Count von Altibar]

What will Aer Lingus be up to next!? Industrial issues just never let up in there. At least there are strong unions on both sides to tackle this one.

[captjns]

At least there are strong unions on both sides to tackle this one.

Yeah right:};):E

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/kmyers/web_graphics/farside%20wolves.jpg

[wobble2plank]

'Open Fungus' anyone?

Somehow I feel we have seen this all before. :}

[WHBM]

How can three aircraft be required ? Washington to Madrid, even if daily, is not going to require more than one.

And how can Aer Lingus hope to achieve anything commercially in two markets, Washington and Madrid, where it is a newcomer in the first and has never done anything other than a small amount of European business to Dublin at the second ? Even Air France, well-established in both London and Los Angeles, had a complete commercial fiasco with their service between the two and had to give up ?

[SLATS_EXTEND]

Gentlemen, you all must understand that this is not about Aer Lingus or UAL making money on the IAD/MAD route. Open Skies is not about competition or free consumer choice. It is about driving labor to the lowest common denominator..

Thus, the proposed route is not slated to operate with either Aer Lingus or UA staffing. My guess is that the pay will be substandard, by alot, and thus will attract minimally qualified crew with draconian working conditions. Multi crew licensing anyone?

Yes, the guise of open skies across the Atlantic was supposed to be competition for consumer value...What the consumer really is going to get is the lowest common denominator in flight crew staffing..

Again, open skies is a vehicle to destroy organized labor and bring labor costs to the lowest possible.

At least now, pilots on both sides of the pond are figuring it out..

Now, what are they going to do about it??

Cheers!

[Desert Diner]

It is a means for UA to offer a IAD-MAD service at a significantly lower development and operating costs then doing it on its own.

It will be up to UA to funnel and disburse pax in and out of IAD. It will be up to UA to fill the seats.

As for Aer Lingus, this seems like a desperate (but perhaps shrewed) move to fend of a certain "gentleman" from FR:8

A very unusual move indeed!

[MarkD]

I wonder if Mannion has "negotiated" a large break fee with UA so that if MOL took over and tried to kill the UA link he'd have to pay a whack of money to UA - a relatively small but annoying poison pill if you will.

Mannion is rather fond of large termination fees on takeover :E

[Re-Heat]

Gentlemen, you all must understand that this is not about Aer Lingus or UAL making money on the IAD/MAD route. Open Skies is not about competition or free consumer choice. It is about driving labor to the lowest common denominator.
Utter rubbish. Openskies is designed to permit greater consumer choice, and allow move flights to more destinations than has ever previously been possible.

However, reduction in labour costs is clearly not an aim of the treaty, largely as flight crews remain tied to carriers within the USA / EU respectively.

[ItsAjob]

The only thing this venture is going to do is sap up a lot of EI cash.

Mannion is not exactly know for his excellence of thinking up ideas for generating income is his? More a slash and burn man.

[fr8tmastr]

Utter rubbish. Openskies is designed to permit greater consumer choice, and allow move flights to more destinations than has ever previously been possible.

However, reduction in labour costs is clearly not an aim of the treaty, largely as flight crews remain tied to carriers within the USA / EU respectively.

You must work for one of the two carriers.
If this was not about destroying labor, then why would they need a new, separate, pilot group?

[Re-Heat]

I work for neither.

[apaddyinuk]

Re-heat.... you clearly lack the ability to decipher irony!

[SLATS_EXTEND]

Right Reheat.... And how is that Open Skies staffing working out for the BA pilots?

I stand by by premise...

Regards,

Slats Extend

[ONTPax]

A friend of mine spoke with a recruiter for Cathay Pacific at a job fair in Los Angeles a few months ago and that airline was doing the same thing.

It is apparently related to lodging costs and the desire to reduce those costs.

The bean counters feel that, in the long run, it would be cheaper for the airline to use ONE hotel at its "hub" city (In Cathay Pacific's case, that obviously would be Hong Kong; in Aer Lingus' case, that would be Dublin) for the layovers of crews who would be based at a wide range of outlying foreign cities, instead of the present arrangement where the crews are based at the "hub" city and lay over at a wide range of foreign "spoke" cities.

It sounds goofy and would probably be a logistical nightmare. In the case of Cathay Pacific, would that mean that a LAX based flight attendant or pilot would only be limited to working the LAX-HKG-LAX run? If those employees were used on any other route, the cost-savings of this proposal would be defeated. The airline would have to cover lodging costs at both HKG and whatever outlying city they would be going to.

When all is said and done, I wonder if they'll save all that much money? :confused:

ONTPax

[Re-Heat]

Right Reheat.... And how is that Open Skies staffing working out for the BA pilots?
I refer to the treaty, not the airline.

I noticed scarcasm, but certainly not a successful attempt at irony.

[SLATS_EXTEND]

Too bad, sarcasm was the real intent...

Regards,

Slats Extend

[vikena]

Wouldn't mind returning to the West.

See that AL are advertising internally for A330 positions in Washington

Assuming that there will be terrible CoS for those guys and that they'll have to pay for a 330 type rating themselves .

Is it likely then with little or no internal uptake that the positions will be advertised publicly or do United get the next snap at the apple?

I suppose the Irish pilot's union are opposed to it.

V

[bia botal]

I suppose the Irish pilot's union are opposed to it.

Irish pilots, who what now!!

[Mrs-rodge-bless-her]

Another nail in the Aerlingus coffin. Again they amaze me with the way money is thrown at ridiculous ventures.

When I first read this post I couldn't believe that this was happening.

Pity MOL hasn't got more of a hand involved! I would love to see the genius it shake up!

[gtf]

it would be cheaper for the airline to use ONE hotel at its "hub" cityIn the real world, there will still be several spoke hotels for long thin routes where setting up a pilots base is impractical.

only be limited to working the LAX-HKG-LAX run?No. Expect W-lines to include spokes without base, or spokes with base but short on crew (sick, off, limited, vacancy...), like a LAX-HKG-SVO-HKG-LAX. Having enough crew to fully staff every base for every possible situation would kill the hub hotel savings.

[teddyman]

You do not have to be Albert Einstein to see that Aer Lingus will have problems surviving in this new tough market. The figures from Dublin Airport speaks for it self. I cannot understand why pilots always fail to see the thruth until it is to late.

I think that the only way to survive is to make up with MOL. Look at RYR last profit. But maybe the pilots in RYR works more and complains less:}

Good luck to all involved:ok:

Teddy

[vikena]

And wouldn't it make a lot more sense for Lingus to open a Madrid base for its base, pilots and aircraft?

Or would that be too simple?

V

[poorjohn]

This low-wage crewing plan reminds me of all our 'wonderful' regionals where the FO makes much less than a living wage and must have a second job and endure a thousand-mile commute to a place s/he can sleep for cheap. I'd much rather have both drivers well-fed and free to worry about aviating. Let's hope the FAA study makes that happen.

[burble]

Sorry teddyman, just can't let your last stand unchallenged. The proposed base is outside of EI's AOC and will have no link with either EI or UAL ops. Aer Lingus's survival is therefore uneffected by this propossed opperataion. What is under threat is the working lives of flight crew in Europe and the States. There is consequently considerable interest and concern in how this unfolds by all flight crew allowed to have an opinion.
As to FR. Teddy old boy, they made a loss. More money went out the door than came in. They continue to be beaten on price and service in both Ireland and the UK from which they are shrinking away. They do however make money on there German and Italian operations from which they continue to subsidies their local ops.
Fr pilots work no harder than EI pilots who work 850hrs annually but they have no right to complain on pain of dismissal.
Good luck to all involved indeed teddy but arm yourself with information before chastising "da pilots".

[misslingus]

Has anyone heard whether there is any possibility of Capts/FO recruitment at new LGW base?

[vikena]

Anyone know what's happening with that Washington Madrid route that was supposed to start? Or was that knocked on the head by the German.

V

[TRY2FLY]

Now looking for first officers for Washington Base

[st patrick]

Still appears to be going ahead - first flight on March 28th.

4 F/O positions rumoured to be available for local recruits

[ItsAjob]

Why do they not use their own FO`s?
I assume Captains are recruited from within?

[Tooloose]

It's another move in a carefully choreographed union busting game. Astraeus and the UK AOC application are part of the same strategic plan.

[Just a spotter]

It's another move in a carefully choreographed union busting game. Astraeus and the UK AOC application are part of the same strategic plan.

A plan you say Tooloose?! Perhaps a crafty and shrewdly devised one, cleverly and skilfully executed by management? Would that then make them "Cunning Lingus"?

No, don't get up, I'll let myself out ..... :}

JAS

[spider_man]

the UK AOC application are part of the same strategic plan

Has AL definitely lodged an application for a UK AOC, or will they just end up buying one (SLR/FJE type arrangement).