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frnikolai
20th Jan 2009, 17:02
Hi,

I have been flying for years now, and thankfully I still fly - but something has scared me.

The Brace Position

I am a tall man, who is very thin - but even still I could not get my head between my knees in the brace position. I say anyone who is average height would have extreme difficulty and anyone tall (like me) has no chance.

How does the brace position help - when 75% of the flight I just got off from can't perform the brace position in an emergency?

I did notice that the safety card looked as if the passenger had there head resting on the seat in front of them? But surely when impact occurs you're head is going to be smashed; with severe head injuries?

What do I do? Mainly as I am just too tall - and to be honest I think a lot of people are in the same boat as me!

Thank you.

Nikolai

P.S

I find Easyjet so crampt that 99% of passengers travelling - will not be able to do it!

aviatordom
20th Jan 2009, 17:49
There must be a solution. I am pretty sure that their aircraft wouldn't be permitted to fly, if a variety of different passengers couldn't adobt a safe emergency brace position

I think the brace position reduces the risk of potentially fatal whiplash. I'm not entirely sure though

frnikolai
20th Jan 2009, 18:04
I understand what you are saying, it is just that to get one's head between ones knees requires there to be enough room in front of you to do so. And with most airlines - there isn't.

I want to know what is the brace position - now that no one can perform the head between knees procedure.

Anyone got an idea?

reventor
20th Jan 2009, 18:14
From my understanding, which may be far from the official story, you need to consider a few things. Minimize velocity of your head and neck, and if it's tight quarters and there is a good chance for a severe bend, make sure your head/neck bends down, not up (snaps your neck faster). I suspect that in many circumstances you may be better off getting up and hugging the seat in front of you. This of course is pure speculation.

I don't think brace position is given much attention from the airlines and authorities, most airlines that I regularly fly on don't even demonstrate the brace position (BA with their video, which is astonishingly useless). Installing proper seat belts would have happened long time ago if sudden stops occured with a certain frequency.

If I could get my head all the way down between my knees, I would never leave the house... :}

frnikolai
20th Jan 2009, 18:34
LOL - I can get my head between my knees, it's just i need room otherwise my head is crampt in. For a tip for, lets call it single-yoga - just stretch before (but really you need a back which can go a long way; plus more...) and you can get you're head between you're knees.

I think probably, keeping you're hands protecting you're back of head (sorry I'm Polish and can't really think of what to say) and top of head resting on the seat in front of you - you might get half a chance.

Thank you.

Nikolai.

boardingpass
21st Jan 2009, 01:15
I don't want to sound too harsh, but do you even bother to read the safety card or watch the demo? You only put your head between your knees (or as far down as you can go if you've got a big belly in the way) if there is no seat in front of you. If there is a seat in front of you, you lean against it with your hands behind your head (fingers not interlocked).

See example in this demo video from Virgin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAoaGni_S1w&feature=related), at 2:40.

A normal forward facing passenger seatbelt only secures your lap, not your upper body/head. Therefore, if the forward motion of the plane stops suddenly (such as when skidding into a ditch/terminal building/catering truck), being already against the seat in front will stop your head slamming into it at full speed.

All those tests and investigations the aviation industry has done over the years shows it's a good idea to know the correct brace position (note it may vary given the seat/cabin design), and to adopt it when required.

Reventor: It is taken seriously by aviation professionals, but not by many passengers. Most pax think that 'oh, if the plane crashes I'm a gonna anyway', but actually if you pay a little attention you can survive many situations (even a ditching as we've all seen this week!).

Let's not debate in this thread why passengers don't have harnesses... why don't we have helmets, why don't we have smoke hoods and fire suits, why don't we have air bags, why don't we have parachutes... It's hard enough getting pax to do up their lap belt, I can't imagine how long it would take to secure a cabin if we waited for everyone to fasten a harness.

Seat62K
21st Jan 2009, 06:55
The only time I had to use the brace position was on a Northwest DC9. We had circled over Detroit for over an hour whilst the flight crew tried to find a solution to a potentially serious problem and the cabin crew briefed us on what to do.

I remember being alarmed by the tray table stow/secure clip. I imagined that if my head struck it with force that doing so could seriously damage my skull. Shouldn't these be flush and not protrude?

GANNET FAN
21st Jan 2009, 07:16
I'm 6'4", I do read the safety card but there is no way on God's sweet earth that I can adopt the brace position as much as I know its the right thing to do. Especially on LCC aircraft. Just hope I never have to.

I'm sure most 6 foot plus people will agree

GF

frnikolai
21st Jan 2009, 07:17
I see how it is done, although I dont know how that can be safe - you're head is resting on the seat in front of you; fine? But you're legs are just going to snap on impact? I see the Virgin video wants you to tuck them slightly under you're own. But to me, getting them to rest on the seat as well might be a good idea?

I am a tall very thin man, and anyone else who is either tall, has a big belly, or is overweight - would have great difficulty!

I read the safety card all the time, it's just not very clear.

Nikolai

Hombre
21st Jan 2009, 10:07
Any sudden stop sitting in a tin tube is going to hurt regardless of seat/brace position.

That said, I think the Airbus 320 Captain must have been very good at skimming stones when he was a wee lad ...:ok:

boardingpass
21st Jan 2009, 10:32
Gannet Fan, your height shouldn't stop you from adopting the brace position. It's not that hard to rest your head on the seat in front, unless you're super fat, in which case you just lean as far forward as you can.

Frnikolai, in a forward facing seat, you tuck your lower legs under, usually by pressing the backs of your ankles against the luggage bar of the seat behind you. This helps to stop your lower legs flailing about if forward motion stops suddenly. If you seatbelt is tight, your knees/upper legs shouldn't move too far forward.

If you seriously can't understand the safety card, you can ask for clarification (you'd be surprised how many people can't work their seat belt), and we'd be happy to help. But please don't argue with the flight attendant about its merits, we've got more important things to do.

GANNET FAN
21st Jan 2009, 13:07
Boardingpass, I have no problem with resting my head on the seat in front, in fact that is far more preferable that tryin to tuck my head behind the seat.

And no, I'm not superfat, maybe a bit overweight but nothing like that American 19 year old on the box on Sunday who weighed over 50 stone!

daz211
21st Jan 2009, 13:46
If, "touch wood" I had to adopt the brace position I would not follow
the instructions on the card or video.

I would - "seated" bring my knees upto my chest, place my head on my knees and hold my hands tight together around my lower legs, almost
ball shape.

What is the point of protecting your head when your legs will be smashed
into the seat infront of you ? you wont be able to walk,run or swim anywhere with shattered legs !

p.s, ONLY travel in cotton/wool clothing, NEVER man made pollys or mixed
the risk of fire is very high, cotton and wool lower the risk of burnes :8.

Load Toad
21st Jan 2009, 15:04
Great idea daz - as the seat back collapses with the weight of the flying passengers hitting it from behind you'll get squeezed 'twixt seat and seat back and your insides will squish out. Cos if the seats are breaking off the floor so your legs get crushed then I reckon that's what'll happen.

My plan was to get a cushion and stuff it between seat belt and me body such as to spread the forces over a wide area. I have no idea if this is a good idea or not but apart from bursting into tears I can't think of much else to do to pass the time before impact.

frnikolai
21st Jan 2009, 17:50
I can understand the safety card - my english is bad, just not that bad!

I think knees resting on the seat in front of you is the best idea - so you're ankles go back as far as they can; and the knees are pushed on the seat in front of you. Then as you say - head resting on the seat with hands (not interlocked) on the top, oh not forgeting arms on thighs!

So from a cabin crew perspective - that's the best thing to do?

I hope I am never in that situation, nor do I hope that anyone else I know is in that situation.

So why is it then a myth that the brace position is just there to kill you quickly? How much higher is the chance of survival with the brace position than someone who does not do the brace position?

Thank you.

frnikolai
21st Jan 2009, 17:55
After thinking about it - knees touching the seat might be a bad idea?

boardingpass
21st Jan 2009, 19:17
What is the point of protecting your head when your legs will be smashed

Maybe because that's where your brain is. :rolleyes:

Nikolai: you've understood the brace position, I hope you're never in a situation where you have to use it. If you're tall, your knees touch the seat in front of you no matter what you do. I'm by no means taller than average joe, but found my knees uncomfortably touching the seat in front when I recently flew Tiger Airways, and so I sympathise, especially when I fly to Amsterdam where the average pax is well over 6 foot.

frnikolai
21st Jan 2009, 19:22
I know - but so I can know; knees should be touching the seat to protect them when impact occurs?

I hope you too are never in a situation where it has to be used, but what is chances of survival even with the brace position?

I was interested to know - just so if I ever am unlucky enough to be in this situation I know what to do.

Thank you.

James 1077
21st Jan 2009, 21:05
Similarly I don't think that I could adopt the brace position in a crash. I'm 6'6" and have a reasonably well fed belly!

Hands over head and leaning on the seat in front would be fine but most airlines that I've travelled on recently still have on their safety cards the leaning right forward, head near knees position which is just a joke for someone my size (and yes, I always read the cards, always check the exits, and always watch the briefings - even though I could probably recite most of them in my sleep!).

My big issue is what to do with my legs - they won't fit under my seat on most planes so I guess it is a matter of just havign them as far back as they can go. Which means that they would still be facing forward so at risk of snapping if we stopped suddenly.

Any suggestions?

Load Toad
21st Jan 2009, 23:15
If you are really bothered about the leg issue - given the number and frequency of crashes that occur how about amputation and choosing detachable legs. - Worked for Douglas Bader.

Avitor
21st Jan 2009, 23:30
Do the best you can, I am sure it will help, if not, see ya...later. :}

frnikolai
22nd Jan 2009, 07:11
I know what to do, head resting on the seat in front, hands on top of head fingers not interlocked. Arms on armrests, (hands on head still) legs far back as they can go and knees touching seat in front.

I know it is going to be difficult - especially as am I very tall!

The point is that if you, or I are in a situation where it is life or death - which can happen; we know what to do.

Nikolai.

SpringHeeledJack
22nd Jan 2009, 08:01
One was told many years ago by an air accident investigator that it made it easier for them to identify victims bodies because whilst in the brace position the head was isolated, the jaws clenched together and therefore made dental ID's much easier due to intact teeth.... "No way!" said I, but he convinced me that if a plane comes down hard then the forces acting on said frail body would be enough to cause fatal damage. I was shown the results of vehicle accidents and it was hard to argue against this point of view.

However, if the BA (LHR) and US Air (Hudson) crash landings are anything to go by that might not be the case anymore.

Regarding the protruding catches on the tray table and coat hanger in front of the passenger, I had an experience whereby the passenger in front of me 'flopped' down so hard in his seat whilst I was bent forward eating my meal that the catch did stamp itself into my scalp causing a bloody wound. A recessed catch/softer back would be safer.


regards


SHJ

Hombre
22nd Jan 2009, 09:54
Re your first paragraph, I have heard that too but from a former mortician - nuff said!

strake
22nd Jan 2009, 13:01
In Virgin Economy, the instruction is to "..bend over, put your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye..." okay, I made the last bit up... :)

In Upper Class, they tell you to lie back and cross your arms over your chest. (True)
Presumably makes it easier to get you into the coffin.

jettesen
22nd Jan 2009, 13:30
The brace position does not mean that you have to get your head between your knees. It is to get your head leaning on the seat in front, so the head is lower than the top of the seat. This is for 2 reasons......... 1 to protect the head from flying debris on impact i.e bags, books etc. and 2 to protect the head from the overhead lockers coming down and breaking your neck like what happened on the british midland crash on the motorway. The people killed in that were the ones who had their necks broken by the overhead lockers collapsing onto them, and in those days, the seat backs were lower than the head. Hence a longer seat back was implemented to prevent this incident occurring again in the future. There is no need for you to get your head down between your knees except for those in legroom seats where there is no seat in front to rest on.

frnikolai
22nd Jan 2009, 19:02
I think the main problem, is not the head - but the legs? What do you do?

I see by getting the knees pressed on the seat in front of you and you're ankles tucked under the seat you're sitting on. Should protect them, they might still snap?

And with two broken legs - you are not going anyway?

What to do then is the problem? Everyone can get there head resting on the seat infront of you - but in an emergency what do people do with legs?

VAFFPAX
23rd Jan 2009, 23:45
After the British Midlands crash on approach to East Midlands Airport, the brace position was found to also save the legs. If you position your legs as indicated/demonstrated/requested by the crew, your legs don't flail and possibly catch against something that could fracture them. It's all about ensuring that no bits get caught by falling debris or fittings (i.e. the overhead bins).

S.

TightSlot
24th Jan 2009, 07:51
The Brace position varies slightly across airlines/nations, and is intended to reduce avoidable injuries to a majority of passengers in a majority of situations. Much of the work done on the brace position was as a result of the BMI Kegworth accident (as mentioned above).

The intention at the upper end is to reduce head-strike injury and arm flail. The angled position of the leg below the knee is intended to reduce serious flail injury and therefore permit escape.

On most airlines, you should observe cabin crew take-up what is known as "semi-brace position" for take-off and landing. Typically, although not exclusively, this involves either the head leaned forward or braced back against the headrest, and the hands secured under the thighs, palm up, with the lower legs angled slightly back from the knee, feet flat on the floor.

Clearly whether or not as pax you intend to take up the correct brace position in an emergency is up to you. If you get it wrong, there is a risk not only to yourself, but to those sitting adjacent to you.

The morticians and teeth thing is something of an old saw, and most useful ass a silence filler at a dinner party table.

CD
24th Jan 2009, 15:53
Transport Canada Advisory Circular 0155 - Brace Positions for Impact (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/circulars/AC0155.htm)
There are two primary reasons for bracing for impact. One is to reduce flailing by having the occupant flex, bend or lean forward over their legs in some manner. The other is to reduce primary and secondary impact by pre-positioning the body, particularly the head, against the surface it would strike during impact. Secondary (passenger) impact usually means a subsequent impact following the primary contact with the interior/seats and takes place when there is space between the body segment and whatever it might hit during impact.

apaddyinuk
24th Jan 2009, 17:40
There is no requirement to physically put your head between your knees. Many airlines seem to have their own translation of how the brace position should be adopted but at the end of the day all that is required of you is to ensure you body is best protected to survive the impact so that you may have a better chance of escaping the crashed aircraft.

The primary requirements are to have your feet flat on the ground slightly behind your knees so that they will not be forced forward in the impact. Your head forward and as low as possible protected by your hands (do not interlock your fingers or else you risk some severe broken fingers which could prevent you from opening your seat belt or a door) and the bulk of your body lower then the top of the seat back so you are protected from collapsing overhead lockers.

At the end of the day the "suggested" brace position on your particular airline varies and I do not feel there is a definitive answer. Most of the studies behind the brace position came about over discussion on how to improve your chances of survival in a crash so that you can escape the wreckage. A lot of study has since been done with survivors of accidents most notably the Kegworth disaster. It has been revealed that the best way to prevent injury in an impact is to prevent flailing of the body which is why we have these brace positions.

SO, Next time you try to blag an upgrade from the crew by using the argument that you cannot adopt the brace position in the seat assigned to you, think again! lol