First Officer for Sale on Ebay (for free!!)

[mad manc man]

I'm all for people using their noggins to better their career prospects, but this has surely gone too far!

This guy is offering his services for free:ugh:.........

I sympathise - been made redundant twice before, horrible place to be, but prostituting yourself is not only degeading, but gives our Airlines even more leverage to chip away at our already ever decreasing T&C's.

Mate, whoever you are, get it off ebay and good luck with the continued search for a job.

Link: Real Life Boeing 737 First Officer for FREE! on eBay, also, Other, Everything Else (end time 23-Jan-09 23:22:23 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Real-Life-Boeing-737-First-Officer-for-FREE_W0QQitemZ200298673487QQihZ010QQcategoryZ88433QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

For those who don't want to open the link, copy of text in ad:

Yes, i am a fully qualified Boeing 737 first officer that cannot find a job due to this stupid credit crunch- i am offering myself to you to fly Boeing 737 aircraft for free. I will happily work for anyone anywhere at anytime. Danger zones....not a problem.

I am 22, ridiculously good looking and have a great CV that will blow your socks off.

Trained at a top integrated flying school in the UK.

Any questions drop me an email.

[LH2]

Sense of humour failure perhaps? :)

...anyway, I'll start worrying when it's the companies that start flogging their vacancies on eBay :bored:

[Birdy767]

If it's not a joke, he's dead meat... Moreover it is illegal...

[757flyer]

He IS good looking though LOL

[weido_salt]

What a cheap tart this guy is!! In fact he is an absolute bitch!

Lets face it, we're all prostituting ourselves our services out for a price but to give it away for free??!! No way!!

[Chesty Morgan]

He looks a bit like that Welsh cock that won Big Brother whenever it was. Hmmmm!

[TLBird]

He has got exactly what he wanted to achieve. To be noticed and everybody talking about him.
As for good looking ? His charm excells his natural beauty:p

[Callsign Kilo]

Surely, please God, this has to be a joke.

However I did train with someone who placed an advert in the back of Flight International a few years back. He was willing to work for free. Was told he got nothing from it, did an SSTR and still found no work. I believe he is still jobless. It's a funny old thing that I have little sympathy for him.

Usual story, had far too much of Daddy's money, not enough brains and a personality which sorely lacked any subsidance. Maybe he is related to this **** on ebay?

[ICEHOUSES]

Hope his mummy and daddy are pleased for him (who prob payed for it all) , :mad:

[BigNumber]

Perhaps the chap in question is actually applying some well deserved sarcasm?

This ebay entry is certainly 'news worthy' and might raise the publics awareness of the 'pay to fly' rot that destroys peoples jobs.

ATP Schemes and the like have become the established norms, and I don't know how to get them back in their box. Lid welded shut!

Equally, until these schemes are scrubbed the low hour folks have very few obvious choices. These schemes are 'percieved' the established ( if not proven ) way to the flight deck door.

Perhaps in the public 'spotlight' this culture of 'pay to fly', pay for your rating and work for free, etc will be shamed into submission.

[DB6]

Is he selling his arse as well? - got to be careful, binding contracts etc.;)
Maybe some fat hairy Russian from Siberia who hasn't had any for ages will win har har!

[StressFree]

Airhead, I'd never employ him.............:=

[Callsign Kilo]

Has anyone 'dropped him an email.'

[Centreline747]

If he is a Ppruner, which I suspect he probably is, then I think he might have got the message.
Well he is a PRUNE :ugh:

Rgds

CL747

[mad manc man]

He's ended his listing early - maybe someone made him an offer he couldn't refuse, or did he read his emails and PPRUNE!

[Wingswinger]

I wouldn't employ him on the grounds that he cannot write grammatical English.

[wheresmyelephant]

got to ask the question, why were you looking for a first officer on ebay in the first place?

[student88]

I wouldn't employ him on the grounds that he is a div.

[CABUS]

Im not too hot on his morals but give the guy credit, no one here has thought of that.

[student88]

Im not too hot on his morals but give the guy credit, no one here has thought of that.

- erm they probably have, but have been too mature/sensible/professional/realistic (delete as applicable) to go about posting something so ridiculous and harming to the pilot community.

[one post only!]

I think this guy is totally unemployable and should be banned from working at all UK airlines. If you look at the other items he is selling he has a "I love Britney" badge listed. This alone brings me to doubt his mental state and therefore perhaps he shouldn't hold a class 1!!!!


Get the feeling that while trying to sell his beloved "I love Britney" badge to raise funds to pay for a type rating (as is all the rage amongst the kids) he thought he would list himself as a joke!

At least I hope it was a joke, anyone who has a badge like that could be quite unstable like the girl herself (allegedly) and might actually do anything..................even work for free!!

[mona lot]

Fly for free, pay to fly, just how much lower can this industry sink?

What will be the next revenue generating initiative? You can bet pay for a command course/time is next on the list.

[mad manc man]

got to ask the question, why were you looking for a first officer on ebay in the first place? Today 12:39

LOL,

Good question, I was actually looking for a 737 manual, and this fool appeared!!!! Shock horror:eek:

[stue]

Harming to the pilot community? Head on over to the BMI line training thread and have a read over there for something that is harmful to the pilot community! At least this guy hasn’t paid 36K for the privilege, he's doing it for free! That’s almost moral!:E (Completely different discussion)

Although, come on guys, this is a joke, it made me chuckle on a rainy Monday morning.:p

[Centreline747]

Come on own up you were looking for an "I love Britney" badge ;)

Rgds

CL747

[student88]

I'm going to see Britney at the O2 this summer - I'm not going to lie. Can anyone link me up with the badge?

[RSFTO]

he is not worst then those who pay to work/fly by buying time building on commercial jets. pilot job has no future.

[mona lot]

If this is a joke it is in very poor taste.

I am sure the ex XL/Zoom pilots found this joke really funny.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Coo, lot's of people got out of bed the wrong side this morning!

To be honest, this is showing a bit of initiative. Working for free is of course abhorrent, but at least he's trying something to get some work. Better than the usual "I'll sit at home mailing CV's and then whinge on Pprune 'cos I haven't got a job".

[stue]

I am sure the ex XL/Zoom pilots found this joke really funny.

Yeah, i did thanks!:p :ok:

Come on, the world doesn’t have to be all doom and gloom does it? we can have a laugh every now and again! It’s the only thing that keeps me going!:p

[Empty Cruise]

Seing that many SSTR FO's are already paying to get their first 500 hrs. on the aircraft, he's way behind the capital curve on this one :}

So if he hadn't spent all his dads dough on one of the top integrated flight training establishments in the UK, he'd have had some money left to pay his way to the front of the queue like everyone else :E instead of relying on eBay to do the trick.

Or perheps he's not unemployed because of the stupid credit-crunch - maybe he is a dunce and that's what's keeping him at the back of the line??? One cannot help but wonder... Anyway, since he's got no hours on the aircraft, and no experience worth mentioning, even if he was Einstein he'd still be way down on anyones list.

Boring!!! :rolleyes: Next!!!

[gl2651]

Hi,

It was infact me that posted the add on ebay- i have copied below the email that i have sent out to the people that have nothing better to with their day than firstly, browse ebay for pilots, and secondly send me abuse.

Hi,
This was obviouly done as a joke and i apologise if it not that obvious to you or has caused you too much offence! It was done more to highlight the plight of low hours pilots, in an amusing way, who are being treated worse then prostiutes- "paying to get :mad: by airlines and line training organisations who force us to pay to fly passengers around which is, in my opinion, ridiculous.
I agree one hundered percent that schemes like these do no one any favours, and probably degrades flight safety, as you have an F/O who is in the right hand seat based on how much money the airline will make from him vs. someone who is there based on skill and ability. However, maybe you should not be venting so much aggression at me- may i suggest a Mr Michael O'Leary in Ireland, for one, who has probably damaged and degraded the reputation and pay packet of professional pilots slightly more than myself.
Thanks for your email and i apologise that this is a group response.

[gl2651]

i do actually have 400 hours as an instructor, and a 737 type rating- just to give you something else to moan about

[stue]

I wouldn’t worry about it gl2651! It’s the "I love Britney" badge that I’m worried by! ;)

[Canada Goose]

Are you sure the badge didn't say " I love Brittany" :E

Spears aside, if it is true, then the guy is a one-eyed trouser snake ! It's for reasons such as this that I am happy I never made it any further than my MCC simulator !

CG.

[scrivenger]

Yes I wouldn't worry, but just out of interest did any fat russians bid?;)

[b1900flyer]

Hey gl2651

Your e-bay add says you're 22 but your pprune profile says 26. Why the difference ?

Kudos for owning up..... made me laugh anyway.

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

Pretty rich gl2651 saying:

"i have copied below the email that i have sent out to the people that have nothing better to with their day than firstly, browse ebay for pilots, and secondly send me abuse."

We're not the ones who had nothing better to do with our day than CREATE an advert for eBay as a JOKE! :ugh:

As for the abuse, if you are stupid enough to have done such a thing, then you obviously stupid enough to think something so topical wouldn't induce an abusive reaction. :mad:

This has to be the unfunniest joke of the year :=

[mad manc man]

Hi,

It was infact me that posted the add on ebay- i have copied below the email that i have sent out to the people that have nothing better to with their day than firstly, browse ebay for pilots, and secondly send me abuse.


I don't think anybody is sad enough to browse ebay looking for pilot's, I certainly wasn't, but did come across your listing whilst browsing for a 737 manual.

I appreciate your frustrations, been there etc.....but, even what you perceived as a harmless bit of fun has provoked a bit of interest from the pilot fraternity. If it was a joke, which I doubt very much, very funny I laughed! (especially at your pic)....

If you did it to highlight the plight of many out of work pilots and the hoops they have to jump through (financially), you have joined the que of many others before you. Genius or Stupid, that lies in the eye of the beholder, but what I will say, your follow up doesn't do you any favours. The people who probably emailed you were probably asking you to remove the ad as it only serves to highlight to Airlines the plight of the low houred F/O who, let's face it, is willing to do almost anything to get work (aka your ad).

You are right in what you say regarding schemes, it is a shambles, but there are and always will be wannabeees who are willing to mortgage their parents upto the hilt and then prostitute themselves for virtually nothing. The quicker the wanabees stop doing this, the quicker Airlines will take notice and HAVE to stop. There will be a an upturn eventually, and pilots will be needed again, so until then, do what most have done before - that is dig deep, do any flying available like you are doing, and what is wrong with a turbo prop to begin with, that's what I cut my teeth on, too many expecting to jump into a shiny jet now.

Good luck mate, notice you quickly got rid of your pic too, that was a good move!

[Callsign Kilo]

gl2651

No one is forcing you to 'pay to fly.' You can't get a job. Sorry fella, but join the que. It's a similar situation for a number of my friends. They weren't able to purchase a 737 rating, but had the good instinct to work it out that this alone would be pretty useless. Hopefully you aren't a bit sore about finally discovering this fact after you got your rating?

And there's no point in having a go at Mick either. Are you saying that if he offered you a job tomorrow, you would say 'no?' Maybe he has said no already or maybe you are venting some anger because it didn't work out for you at FR?

[BigNumber]

So it would appear that I was right in my assumptions. The guy was being rightfully sarcastic.

See my post on page 1.

Shame in all the haste to post 'twaddle' it rather went unnoticed. These schemes are the enemy not the desperate low hour pilots they attract.

Rant over - I'm off to LTN

[No_Speed_Restriction]

gl2651, you forgot to mention if you accept paypal? :E

http://www.businesspundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/burns.gif

[RAFAT]

And there's no point in having a go at Mick either. Are you saying that if he offered you a job tomorrow, you would say 'no?'

Callsign Kilo - purely my own opinion of course, but I blame O'Leary (almost entirely) for everything that is bad about our profession today, and the degradation of Ts & Cs over the last few years. I would NOT work for O'Leary under any circumstances you could name, EVER! I wouldn't even fly as a passenger on his shabby little airline, so don't assume that everyone would bend over and take it up the proverbial to work for O'Leary.

[Stan Woolley]

RAFAT

Your opinion reminds me of the Monty Python sketch about the witch hunt......... '.........burn them !!!!!!'.

Maybe not complete ignorance in your case but really it is and always has been pilots that have allowed things to get where they are.

I just wonder though do you think many people like me are on some sort of prison sentence at Ryanair? I and many others feel that it's actually a pretty good option compared to most other airlines so cut us some slack and look elsewhere for a scapegoat! Do you think your airline managers are any different to O' Leary? He's just better at the game than they are!

[wobble2plank]

Personally I think it's bloody funny!

At least he has the balls to get up and do something 'out of the box'.

If it works for him then good luck to him.

:}

[Callsign Kilo]

so don't assume that everyone would bend over and take it up the proverbial to work for O'Leary.

As Stan Woolley says, don't assume that whenever I go to work each day I need to drop my boxers, grease myself up and prepare for penetration! Your opinion of Ryanair is your opinion and I'm also certain that many others share it with you. I for one am fairly content with my lot. Not saying I may always feel like this, but for the moment I will remain grateful.

I would NOT work for O'Leary under any circumstances you could name, EVER! I wouldn't even fly as a passenger on his shabby little airline, so don't assume that everyone would bend over and take it up the proverbial to work for O'Leary.

I'm glad you have such strong morals. I've heard other people say this as well. I also sit next to people who had also said it once upon a time. In the crewroom, in the flightdeck, in the departure lounge, in isle 12A at FL370. It's amazing how things change in aviation. However I'm not saying this will apply to you!

Anyway, this is thread drift. We'll leave the Ryanair bashing for another day.

[bluelearjetdriver]

Ah yes, aviation, a circus where the clowns get to pay..... :E

[BigNumber]

Greetings from LTN.

Yes, as CK says FR bashing is irrelevant.

If some guys and girls can get flying on any type, keep current, get paid and have a future that is great.

What would these 'morally superior' people propose? Use your licence as a 'beer mat' to impress the girls?

Gotta head east now, hope everyone has a good week.

[JugglingSpence]

Q: What is the difference between paying to fly and advertising that you fly for free?
A: Approx. £30K from what I can see.

I think people should lay off this guy a bit, he just wants to use the ATPL that he's paid so much for. At least he isn't giving anyone any money to be a first officer!

Before slating this guy, ask yourself what you would do in his shoes. Big debt (possibly), a minimal number of jobs available, less on the horizon, not attracting any interest from employers due to low hours which are not increasing and currency slipping. I'd start looking for a paddle of any shape to get me out of the creek!

[ray cosmic]

Actually I thought the ad was funny. It actually highlights how hopeless this industry is by evoking all these highly emotional reactions. Lighten up guys.

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

Do you realise how pathetic you all sound,

The lad just wants a job and was being proactive and moderatly homourous in the process. It has already been pointed out the guys and girls from CTC who work for FREE for 6 months are not getting the deplorable abuse that is being dished out here. Why not turn your attention to them? I'll even start the thread if you want. He has a rating and wants a job, but oh wait, the self righteous of PPrune have spoken and thats not allowed. And your saying this lads a tosser, errrrrr no he isn't.

Quick question, why is advertising your services (even if it is for free) "moreover illegal" Birdy 767?

[RAFAT]

Stan & Callsign - just my opinion as I said, thanks for your replies. :ok:

[EpsilonVaz]

Pretty harmless humour I thought, don't see the problem with it.

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

No aeroncaman, i'm sorry but you are you seriously proposing that may actually happen? An airline would get rid of rated guys who they pay and replace them with pilots who will work for free. That is a CRAP CRAP CRAP arguement, i'm not even going to waste my time typing why. If you can't sit back and think why that may be a problem you are not very bright.

[Chesty Morgan]

The lad just wants a job and was being proactive

What?! Sitting on his arse writing stupid things on the internet is being proactive?

Why not get yourself knocking on the front door of everybody in this country who owns an aeroplane? Swallow your pride and accept that a jet job and maybe even a turbo prop job aint gonna happen for no timers, not in the near future anyway.

If I was in his position I'd be happy to be flying and getting paid for it, even if it's only 5 quid an hour doing aerial photography.

Plonker.

[super ted123]

I think the responses on here have been laughable.

People need to relax :ugh:

If I were in his shoes with an expensive rating and no hours I would have to consider doing what I could to build a few hours and get some experience. Its a bit drastic, and you have to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, perhaps it was a joke. I dont imagine your average airline recruitment office searchign ebay for staff!!!!

gl2651, despite the over the top and abusive replies I wish you all the best for getting your first airline job.

One little bit of advice though, feel free to disregard, why not try and build those precious hours with your FI rating, work anywhere, move, go abroad or get a job in another indusrty while you instruct to help pay the bills.

Pprune is a harsh world these days!

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

Chesty

Well he must have covered every other base if he is advertising on Ebay, so yes i would consider him a proactive individual. I really cannot see him pinning all his hopes on Ebay and forgetting all the other ways of getting a job.

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

Aeroncaman,

What you suggested would be unsustainable for an airline, where would the captains come from? Are you suggesting that they would all work for free too once they had upgraded. Thats why i responded as i did because i think your suggestion is far fetched. Pilots work for free for a short time period, say six months, not for ever!

I'm telling you now if the scenario you suggest had the remotest chance of working, Ryanair would have been running courses all last week and two on sunday.

[The Real Slim Shady]

aero

FR salaries are pretty damn good: as are the maintenance and the new shiny jets. Just because some seats are sold very cheaply doesn't mean we work for peanuts.

and good luck to the fella: if I was in recruitment I would give him an interview. He has big cojones.

[Smeagels Boyfriend]

Money-Timeoff-Half decent Roster Aeroncaman, thats all i want. Looking at Jet2 for example (who i beleive are at the lower end of the pay scale for 737 drivers according to PPJN) they give all those, as do Ryanair. As i said and I think everyone would agree that if MOL could get away without paying pilots he would, even he knows he can only go so far!

[Martin1234]

[..]prostituting yourself is not only degeading, but gives our Airlines even more leverage to chip away at our already ever decreasing T&C's.

I thought that the ones that demand money for services provided are prostitutes while the ones doing it for free are not?

:)

[mikehammer]

To all the knockers on here: Fair enough ...conditions eroded...morally questionable...blah blah blah, but own up - how many of you stating your strong opinions still have a job (which is, after all, your motivation for wanting to maintain the status quo in the first place)? This guy doesn't have a job. Until you're in (or back in) his position, I suggest you keep quiet for fear of offending those less fortunate than yourselves.

Above someone mentioned aviation being a circus, now it appears to be full of conservative thinking NIMBYs. Worse, NIMBYs wth inflated egos.

[pilotmike]

What?! Sitting on his arse writing stupid things on the internet is being proactive?
Oh, the irony!
Why not get yourself knocking on the front door of everybody in this country who owns an aeroplane?
Possibly you have overlooked the fact that in a thoroughly modern, techno-advanced way, that is precisely what the lad has metaphorically done...

[Chesty Morgan]

Pilotmike

1. How is it ironic?

2. Writing on Ebay, I would hazard a guess, is NOT what most people in this industry would consider good job hunting skills.

that is precisely what the lad has metaphorically done...

Perhaps he should precisely actually do it. Instead of sitting there advertising on a completely irrelevant wesite waiting for people to offer him a job maybe he should precisely actually go out looking for one.

[Ten West]

I think he's probably already done that, and his Ebay listing was just a bit of fun and a way to vent some frustration.

Good luck to him! Although I would say that his training is incomplete as he evidently hasn't read:

CAP987665. The Avoidance Of Humour In Aircrews. :=

[rasobey]

An interesting thread for sure. I am not a pilot but would like to be (well, I want to be in a well paid career that entails doing something I am genuinely interested in; I'll give you one guess as to which part of that sentence applies to Aviation and me).

However there are limits - there is no way on God's Green Earth I would do ANY job for free (except charity work, IF I had some other sort of income). I honestly can't see Mr eBay doing such a thing either. If I was in charge and someone offered to work for me for free, I'd have strong questions about what that person's real motives are.

[pilotmike]

People need to relax :ugh:

Precisely.

CAP987665. The Avoidance Of Humour In Aircrews. :=


Actually.

[hypnosteve]

1. How is it ironic?

Yes Pilotmike. How is it ironic? He is really writing stupid things on the internet. It would only be ironic if we were doing the same... and we're not.

2. Writing on Ebay, I would hazard a guess, is NOT what most people in this industry would consider good job hunting skills.

A-ha.. maybe that's the key. If everybody is complaining that they can't find a job using the industry standard job hunting handbook, how about trying something else? Oh no... let's all stick together, then we can all moan together.

Perhaps he should precisely actually do it.

Yes, yes, good idea. That's a much better than taking 10 minutes to put a posting on a site with millions of subscribers. Better to travel the world knocking on doors.

Ha ha ha the bitterness of some people here towards anyone with a different way of thinking is astounding. Good luck to the guy.

Get a life, and relax about other people's lives.

[mona lot]

""A-ha.. maybe that's the key. If everybody is complaining that they can't find a job using the industry standard job hunting handbook, how about trying something else?""

If you read this thread from the top you will see that this ebay add was not a serious attempt to secure "gainful" employment but apparently some sort of "joke" aimed at highlighting the plight of the wannabe.

Quote

“This was obviouly done as a joke and i apologise if it not that obvious to you or has caused you too much offence! It was done more to highlight the plight of low hours pilots, in an amusing way, who are being treated worse then prostiutes- "paying to get :mad: by airlines and line training organisations who force us to pay to fly passengers around which is, in my opinion, ridiculous.”

The only proactive thing this chap has done is to drive T & Cs even lower and make a mockery of the profession of an airline pilot.

I am not bitter, I have a very good airline job which I didn't buy and I want to keep it thank you very much. I've nothing against wannabes but flying for free/paying to fly is not the answer.

[bjkeates]

I personally thought the 'advert' was quite funny, but the bigger joke is the fact that this thread has run to 4 pages of debate on the subject.

Maybe they should start to include a "sense of humour development" hour on recurrent CRM courses...

[mona lot]

How about adding an ATPL module that teaches the difference between dreams and reality?

The number of gullible/stupid/naive fATPLs out there with more money than sense looking for that "dream" 737/320 job is criminal all because they fell for the spin of their FTO.

There are no jobs. FULL STOP:uhoh:

Are there ANY other professional pilots reading this forum? Do you have any respect left for our profession?

[mikehammer]

Are there ANY other professional pilots reading this forum? Do you have any respect left for our profession?


From the ones recently out of work due to failed companies, and to those yet to find their first job, I would think you will find the odd negative answer to your question. I am guessing your own respect is borne from several, if not many years in a good flying job? To that end, perhaps respect in our profession follows hard cash?

[flying macaco]

Are there ANY other professional pilots reading this forum? Do you have any respect left for our profession?

Respect for the profession is also diminshed by self-proclaimed professionals who post extremely patronising and tactless messages.

I'm not saying posting yourself on ebay is right, but there are many professionals recently made redundant who I'm sure can sympathise with this person and understand the desparation that may have led to this posting on ebay.

Anyway, gave me a laugh (very unprofessional).

[Say again s l o w l y]

There really are some total humourless muppets who post on here sometimes.

I'd rather fly with this chap who put himself up on EBay than half of the miserable toads who've posted here.

Being a "professional" doesn't mean you have to be a boring robot. In fact the most "professional" people I've flown with are usually the ones you have the most fun with. Yes flying can be a serious business at times, but not always and in these current depressing times, having a sense of humour is a good idea.

I must be unprofessional as I found it amusing. Blaming and attacking this young bloke for this is totally uncalled for and says more about the miserable and irrational nature of some posters than it will ever say about him.

[flying macaco]

I was also recently made redundant, but feel it was more a result of the crumbling economy and (at the time) rocketing price of fuel/oil rather than people paying for type ratings/ebay jokes.

Just my opinion. Insert backlash here.

[mikehammer]

But aerancoman you are speaking from the point of view of someone who already had a flying job and hours on type, and trying to retrospectively solve your redundancy problem from that perspective, which I can understand. Your problem was created by the fact that supply of pilots outstrips demand. Whilst pilots working for free (in order, don't forget to further their own long term careers, whereas you are interested in protecting yours) won't help this situation, they merely exacerbate the cause, rather than create the problem.

I agree with SAS above, too much sense of humour failure in this thread in the name of so called professionalism.

[gl2651]

I really am astonished firstly by this thread now being on its 5th page, and secondly by the lack of humor of some people. I even got a death threat on my ebay email account which i thought was a tad harsh!Really...I am however glad to tell you all i am still alive!Phew.

I did this as a JOKE-i can't actually believe i am having to take the time to explain my actions to what is pretty obviously not a serious advert! I agree with everyone out there who is complaining how ridiculous it is i am offering myself for free- it is mad! However, I am shortly about to undertake line training costing tens of thousands which is a lot worse then. The possibility of the one in a million chance that i might somehow find free line training/ job for the cost of a ten pence joke advert on ebay- why not- i have nothing really to loose.

The options currently open to fATPLs out there is very limited as there are few if no jobs currently available. Yes, i am fortunate enough to be able to afford to further my career by paying to gain experience so why not. I really feel that if you were in the position I am you would do as much as you possibly could to further your career in order to earn a wage at the end of the day. This is what the market is dictating at the moment and there are many many more fATPL's doing exactly the same.

I look forward to the abuse from the nit wits out there that can't comprehend this and I thank all those who can actually see the funny side of what was a JOKE from a 22 year old with a very empty bank balance!

[Gnirren]

10 years. Tops, before flying is no longer a job but a hobby you pay for.

Save some of your salary by the way, you'll need it when time comes to pay for your command course...

[Say again s l o w l y]

That's as maybe, but it is a bit harsh to blame the ills of this industry on one inexperienced 22 year old.

I reckon many of us so called "professionals" should look at our own actions and how we've allowed this sort of situation to arise.

Of course it's a rubbish situation, but the foundations were laid for this when this lad was still in nappies.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Yes, i am fortunate enough to be able to afford to further my career by paying to gain experience so why not

and I thank all those who can actually see the funny side of what was a JOKE from a 22 year old with a very empty bank balance!

Both in the same post, come on your Dads paying isn't he...isn't he... :ok: :ok:

[Paradise Lost]

Boldly said gl2651. If the flying doesn't work out, I'm sure you could get a job in marketing for your original and creative sales strategy.
The object of marketing is to get noticed, and you certainly achieved that. Good luck.

[cheif]

I can't understand why some people are wondering if they're worthy of respect from professionals such as engineers, doctors, or solicitors, because some guy with a licence is willing to work for free as a FO to gain experience.

Just because somebody has completed a 13 month course( i.e. typical full time study to obtain a fatpl.) In my opinion should not put himself in the same league as as those professions mentioned above.

Seems to me, just because some people have obtained a R/H seat positions in an airline with the minimum experience required, they automatically deserve the respect the position should merit, when in reality all they have been given is their first glimpse of on the job training, and an opportunity to learn.

Most people who achieve success in the professions mentioned above work for next to nothing in their first jobs and that's after going to university for 4 to 7 years before even receiving a qualification.

I remember reading recently, someone posted that an airline setting up a base in Gatwick offering new F/O's in the region of 50k per anum was degrading pilots T&C's, I'm sure any employee in opps, ground handling, H.R, check-in, or cabin crew would be shocked to realise what their colleagues were rewarded for their wealth of experience in aviation after their13-18 month spell in Jerez or Kidlinton .

This is just my two cents.

We're lucky as most people who fly for a living do it because they wouldn't want any other job.Unlike pretty much anybody I know in other careers who does their job to pay the bills.

If someone is able to bypass the apprenticeship of a flying career by going cpl-MEIR-MCC- 737, they should really rethink their self proclaimed professional status for at least the next 1000-2000 hours flying hours.

[mad manc man]

Well said Cheif,

I spent 6 years training to be an Engineer, after attaining the relevant qualifications my wage reflected that of an inexperienced Engineer, and rightfully so. As experience came, wages increased. Unfortunately, with the state of manufacturing in the UK I was made redundant several times!

So......In comes the flying, always wanted to fly as a career (had a PPL for general flying), but I wasn't in the enviable position like many of having bottomless pits of money from ma and pa. I take my hat off to anyone embarking on a fATPL course, or modular, because it is without doubt incredabily difficult, but like Cheif says, not in the same league as say medicine. So, after the sale of my house, car and just about everything else I owned embarked on a 16month integrated course. All went well, no job at the end though, those pesky FTO's, promise you the earth eh!!!!

Did some Safety Pilot work and other bits and bobs, but always on the look out for that first commercial job. Now, the interesting part, lots of my friends whilst training were somewhat disillusioned when it came to finding that first elusive job, with many believing they would jump straight into the RHS of a 73/320. Some did, but not many.

I was one of the lucky one's, got a job relatively quickly and ended up flying large Turbo Props for 3 years, which believe me if you are fresh out of training is more challenging than a 2.5hr trip down to the balearics in a 73/A3?....

Eventually family commitments dictated a change to another company flying jets and have been for 3 years now - great, but I'm happy I cut my teeth on a Turbo Prop flying 4-6 sectors a day gaining invaluable experience.

My problem with guys trying to get that first job is the sheer arrogance of some who believe it is their god given right to go straight onto a Jet. Not been funny guys, but what is wrong with a Turbo Prop. What is wrong with Air Taxi work, what is wrong with Instructing???????? If you fly in the US, that is the norm (qualify, Instruct etc...), not the exception like Europe.

Yes before the barrage of replies comes in from the wannabeeees about 'tried that' etc, you need to now wake up and smell the coffee. There has not been a downturn like this in a long time, and the pilots who have jobs will protect them vehemently. Such posts as posted by gl2651 only go to show the extents and plight of the inexperienced pilot and the lengths they are willing to go to get that 1st JET JOB:ugh:.....

So I await the posts from people who declare they have a sense of humour, and those who don't. I laughed at the ad, but, with a job that supports my young family to worry about in these turbulant times after reading posts here has made me a little bit pissed with gl2651 for being so arrogant. Such adverts send a clear message to Airlines who are mostly now run by bean counters and HR departments that Pilot's, epecially the Inexperienced are willing to work for peanuts. Ultimately, you are degrading yourself and the Terms and Conditions of others!

[Say again s l o w l y]

You won't get any argument from me about the "traditional " route to jets producing a better pilot at the end of it. I also started of instructing, then onto turboprops etc.

I learnt more flying the mighty shed about than I did from anything else.

However, modern jets aren't that difficult to fly on a day to day basis and with the lack of any accidents and so few serious incidents for a long time, the argument could be made that you don't need as much skill in the cockpit as we all think.

Of course that is utter nonsense and anyone with half a brain can see that, but everything in flying comes down to money now.

If someone can be gotten legally into the cockpit for less money than a more experienced person, then it will happen.

We can all whinge and blame the inexperienced people, but that is also nonsense. You cannot blame someone for going out and getting a head start. It is a simple case of running the numbers. If you pay 20K and get a job paying 35K, then after 2 years you have earnt 70, giving you a total profit of 50.
If you decide to follow the traditional FI/turboprop route, you are lucky to earn 15k in the first year and 20K in the second. Even if you didn't pay for your FI/turbo rating, then you are still 15K down and you haven't got 1000hrs jet time in your logbook.

Does it make you a better pilot? No, but this isn't about that. Sadly, it all comes down to money.

35K pa to someone with a family and a mortgage isn't a lot. 35K to a 22 year old with no dependants is a lot.

[mikehammer]

Not been funny guys, but what is wrong with a Turbo Prop. What is wrong with Air Taxi work, what is wrong with Instructing????????


Easy. Not enough of these jobs to go around either. I was lucky, and got a turbo prop job after some air survey work in a bug smasher, but there are plenty of good guys trying to get into the company for whom I work, trying to start their career proper. I reckon they are proper-frustrated-like, and I don't blame them, which is also why I sympathise with the ebay poster.

[mona lot]

So when the upturn comes, who do you think the bean counters will recruit, the recently redundant multi thousand hour pilots expecting a 40k plus salary or the 200 hour wonders who will work for free or even pay to work?

You gonna need that sense of humour when you get your payslip.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Who do you think they'll employ? But again how is that the fault of the young bloke who put his ad up on EBay?

He couldn't give two hoots about others and frankly why should he? It is a competition and the right people don't always win. It's one of the harsh realities of the capitalist system. Supply and Demand.

I'm not saying it is right, but that isn't the point is it.

[flying macaco]

mona lot, I'm guessing you are safely in a job. Makes it a lot easier to take the high and mighty attitude you seem to have. I really hope you don't have to experience the sudden redundancies which have been dished out in this bleak period, but if you did maybe you would be a little more sympathetic to the desperation some people are feeling right now. Kicking people while they are down isn't the most helpful. (Not to mention, unprofessional.)

[NZ_Girl]

I admire the fact he is 'thinking outside the square' and isn't afraid of using his resources to try and land himself a job. Ok, he may not get one. But he tried. :ok:

[mikehammer]

SAS, you are right, he probably couldn't give two hoots. Mind you, there are quite a few posts reviling him and the authors of them couldn't give two hoots about desperate low timers, so I guess that's fair. They just want them to stay down, keep quiet, and not do anything which might affect adversly affect the status quo of competition within their own career ranks. This is thinly veiled as the high moral ground, worthy of any spin doctor.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Unfortunately, because pilots are a mercenary bunch in general, we are all guilty of allowing the situation where reducing T's and C's becomes the norm.

It doesn't help that there has been an over supply of pilots. There are so few barriers to entry now, that it is just a bun fight for the available jobs.

As we aren't a very united bunch, then it allows this sort of issue to arise.

[clanger32]

I do have to say as a current manager, Pilots are a remarkably easy lot to "divide and conquer". All you need do is promise someone more for them right now and they're sold on the idea....this is how the Ts & Cs have disappeared, not by the kids buying the line training schemes...
Unfortunately, until pilots (taking myself out of the equation, because I'm not in it yet, mores the pity) stand together and say enough, it will keep happening, because it can and because it's easy to do.

[Nightfire]

gl2651, stop lying.

[Baron737]

In Germany there is an airline (around 40 B737´s and F100´s) that is wetleasing to all major charter airlines. It offered the copilot-seat to dentists, laywers etc. They had to pay (!!) around 35 Euros per hour. Of course they had a valid ATPL (dentists earn good money in germany :-))
This way this airline could operate much cheaper than anybody else and made big cash :-))

[Aeroengineer1]

Baron737:


In Germany there is an airline (around 40 B737´s and F100´s) that is wetleasing to all major charter airlines. It offered the copilot-seat to dentists, laywers etc. They had to pay (!!) around 35 Euros per hour. Of course they had a valid ATPL (dentists earn good money in germany :-))
This way this airline could operate much cheaper than anybody else and made big cash :-))


Is this true?

[Aeroengineer1]

mad manc man

Have nothing to say against your comment. Some youngsters even think that they would jump to LHS, if I am not wrong. USA is the largest country in air transportation. Before having a LHS on a twin prop, they do lots of hours on single pistons of GA fleet... perhaps, youngestrs of Europe should do some Googling about bush pilots in North America. Have met an American 747 driver...he said he had done everything in flying for several years before taking LHS of a DC-3.

[act700]

Aeroengineer1--agreed, 100%, b/c, been there, done that.

mad manc man--so true, so true.


But, here's the real problem, the way I see it:

What will happen when these 200 hour wonders, who are so f:mad:g high on themselves it makes you want to :yuk:, move over to the left seat?
I for one will be scared $hitless to fly commercial in a few years! There will be a serious lack of experience on flight decks. It'll happen here a lot sooner than in the US.
I'm talking about aviating/seat of the pants experience; where situations arise that are not black and white, rather grey, and some "improvisation" will be the order of the day, where decisions are made based on experience, not $hit that's written in manuals, etc.
How do you make those decisions with a very limited "depth" of experience
(ie, amphib A320)

I'm not at all implying that these wonder cakes will not have ANY experience at all. Unless they are completely oblivious to their surroundings, they're bound to pick up some things here and there. But what kind of experience can you get, when you're always above the wx, never in the icing, etc, etc,...

Do I have a solution? No. So I will stfu now.

Btw, better add, that I'm 100% European, before you start bashing those poor yank bastards!!! (And for all that's wrong with the US, I am glad, and proud, to have been flying-bred over there)

[old-timer]

Very valid point act 700 - Flight covered this the other week regarding actual flying skills, there was an A320 incident into Bristol I believe due to this

[flyinthesky]

OK guys, just to keep things in perspective. 200 hour guys ARE NOT going to suddenly end up in the LHS. I have 6500 hours and a command course fast approaching coupled with 9 years of RHS experience. The reality is that no airline in the UK is putting low hour guys in the LHS. Most respectable operators have minimums of at least 4500 hours.

I will of course agree that some of the 200 hour guys have over inflated egos but there are so many RHS guys ahead of them in the queue waiting for commands that they will have acquired the necessary by the time their turn comes.

I sometimes worry more about the quality of some contract captains. There might be a reason why they are not fully employed??? And I am not tarring all with the same brush, but as with anything, there are always a few bad eggs.

It is easy to get emotional when people have so much cash invested in their career.

[Baron737]

Aeroengineer1 (http://www.pprune.org/members/172873-aeroengineer1)

PM is on the way

[EAM]

@Aeroengineer1, yes it was true. It was 94/95, when a flight school offered a B737 rating and then send the guys to that airline to pay around 35€ per hour.

Arouned 20-25 of these guys flew over the summer and at the end the company kept 2 or 3 of them.

[Aeroengineer1]

Baron737: Thank you for PM

Baron737 and EAM:

I talked to some friends too after your comments before receiving your PM and learned this is true. They said there are some airlines still doing this, some from NA and Europe.

[chimbu warrior]

200 hour guys ARE NOT going to suddenly end up in the LHS

I worry just a little bit that, given that most airlines these days are run by young accounting types with sharp pencils, sooner or later some rising star will hit upon the bright idea ".....well if we can charge people to fly as F/O's, why not up the ante a bit and SELL some LHS time......."

After all, the practice of buying type ratings has become rampant, despite the proven problems this has created (lack of consistency in training when obtained from various third-party providers).

Now in most airlines this would not get through the door of Flight Ops, but in some cases even Chief Pilots can be just a bit too compliant (read spineless), and sooner or later it could happen.

Ask yourself, would a hospital allow a kid who has always dreamed of being a doctor to short-cut the system and PAY to gain surgical experience? I sincerely hope not.

Why then is our industry allowing safety-critical roles to be "sold" to the highest bidder (or in the case of paid work, the lowest bidder)?????

[Andrén]

what about this guy then

The right to hire a mint new commercial pilot worldwide - eBay (item 120396422029 end time Apr-02-09 13:06:14 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120396422029&category=88433&_trksid=p2773.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSI%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D40%26po%3D LVI%26ps%3D54#ht_1755wt_1165)

:ok:

[mikehammer]

Distinct lack of originality (maybe he didn't see the first ebay pilot ad?) but funny nonetheless. Liked the bit about breeding and livestock!

Lambs to the slaughter?

[mad manc man]

Oh no, another.................

Please read all of the description before placing a bid!


Coming up for auction, a brand new pilot (The seller. Hereafter mentioned as “pilot”) with JAA CPL, ATPL-theory. In addition to this, the pilot will most probably gain the ME/IR by the end of April/beginning of May 2009 (frozen ATPL). It doesn’t end there, by the mid of July, he’ll also have gained experience in the world of MCC at Oxford Aviation Academy at Arlanda, Stockholm Sweden.

In a world, and at a time, where drastic financial cuts are everyday news, the people and companies living in it need to use drastic methods in order to get by.

This pilot has a perfect breeding record, good health and has documented good characteristics for the job to be done. He’s not shy or aggressive to other pilots, but get along very well in various social situations.

He’s still a young fellow. Inexperienced, yes, but still very eager to perform well and to develop his skills further. Somehow he managed to acquire relatively excellent skills with the English language in addition to his mother tongue. He has also gained basic knowledge of the German language. With the right leader and firm tutoring he’ll excel at your discretion!

As a buyer, you sign up for taking care of the necessary administration that needs to be done (be careful to check with your national customs if you’re allowed to import this kind of livestock without prior permission!) and agree to let him fly for you and/or your company. You also see to that the certificates are valid in your area of operations. If not so, and you’re still interested in buying this right, you must inform the seller before you place a bid. The pilot is open for any suggestions worldwide. (Preferably warm, sunny and where the palms grow, in Sweden it’s quite the opposite).

You also agree to pay him a salary, enough for living expenses and some exercise at the local gym. If not able to pay him a salary (tough climate in the business of air operations) you at least agree to accommodate him and give him food and many hours of flying with your aircraft(s). When it comes to a type rating, he’s perfectly open to pay for it himself. In return it would be nice if you let him fly afterwards.

Please, feel free to email me any questions! I’d gladly send you an updated CV.



Other records:

Formerly employed by the Swedish Armed Forces (Air Defense), where he started off as a conscript and fought his way through to become a 2nd Lieutenant. Thereafter he drilled new conscripts for almost 12 months where after he went on a mission abroad, to Kosovo, for six months. There he served as a Liaison Assistant in the Regional LMT command group together with Finnish, Irish, Latvian, Czech, and Slovakian officers. Altogether, almost three years were spent in the uniform of the Swedish army. At the end of the summer of 2008 he was offered a place at the royal military academy in Stockholm (MHS Karlberg) but declined in the favor of a civil ATPL, ME/IR MCC modular course.

Storemanager and a locksmith apprentice. Had the responsibility for running the business, from ordering of new stock to processing and selling direct to the customers.

Educated hug therapist with certificate.



Experience:

250hrs flight time in total. PIC app 140hrs. ME app. 20-25hrs. IFR app. 15hrs. CC app. 80hrs.



Aircrafts flown:

Cessna 172R and RG, PA28-Warrior and Archer II, Saab 91 Safir, Beechcraft Duchess 76



And finally, some legal stuff




Disclaimer

• The pilot (the seller) currently lives in Sweden.

• Terms of contract to be decided and approved prior to acceptance of payment.

• If no terms of contract has been agreed upon within 30 days from the end of this auction or at all (whichever is first), the seller has the right to relist this object.

• The time limit for the right to hire me will be confined within above mentioned contract.

• The pilot (the seller) has the right of refusal to any and all bids.

• If discovered that the buyer (employer alike) is involved in illegal activities, all costs etc that have been, or planned to be, charged the pilot (the seller) shall be refunded by the buyer (employer), as well as means of travelling back to the pilots native home by the most expeditious and comfort way possible. All contracts etc are also declared invalid. In addition to this, the buyer (employer) also agrees to give the pilot (the seller) a big chocolate ice cream for the pain caused.

Well, he's made it to PPRUNE at least and willing to pay for his type rating!:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Where do they get their money from?

He won't be the last. I do sympathise, it's a shocking time to come out of training, but it is a bad time whatever you have majored in, think of all those students coming out of Uni applying for a handful of jobs......Bad, bad times!

Still, I can't advocate this type of self marketing, it (IMHO) is cheap and degrading, let alone the damage (potential) it could inflict on T&C's for future crews.

[jetjockey737]

Got back from work and had a quick look to see what was going on in the aviation world...saw this and laughed. I think its quite funny. I then carried on reading and saw a barrage of abuse aimed at the guy....get a grip!!!

So many times I have seen posts about people mortgaging their parents upto the hilt and getting slated for it, well what else are we meant to do? How else do you propose we pay for our licences? Low hour guys have no option but to borrow more money to get through CTC schemes and the like. I have heard it suggested that they should all not do it and then the airlines would have no choice but to hire you the old fashioned way ( they pay for your type rating and bond you whilst paying you a decent wage ). Well here is a suggestion...we all tell BALPA that we want to go on strike until our employers reinstate those kind of opportunities!! Alot of pilots I have come across have are only concerned about themselves and wouldnt dream of sacrificing a weeks salary for the good of others. Until we, as a group, are willing to do that why dont we just lay off these wannabees trying to gain work in their chosen proffesion!

Out

JJ

[silverhawk]

CTC

set up by a bunch of greedy TREs and funded by weak individuals. I weep for my industry.

[Tolan]

CTC

set up by a bunch of greedy TREs and funded by weak individuals. I weep for my industry.

Why? Because you think it's better they stay at home and claim the dole when there is no work out there? Or perhaps be taken to court over training debts?

[no sponsor]

What about earning the money yourself, then with it in the bank, funding your training? I did it. Anyone can do it.

Hard work never hurt anybody. It is a shame that people think that because they cannot borrow the money, there is no way they can do it. There is always another avenue.

[mikehammer]

No sponsor

Fair point, so did I (well, most of it anyway), but back then it WAS comparitively cheap, about £30,000 got you a good start with your training, £40,000 would see you through barring any double failures with retraining requirements.

Now I see figures mentioned of £60,000 to £70,000 (albeit for integrated courses), and wages ten years later are not significantly higher today, certainly not double what they were when I trained, yet the training cost seems to have doubled somehow, especially at CTC. That's a lo.....ong time to save up!

[jetjockey737]

I saved some and had to ask my parents for a bit of help, I did choose not to go to uni as they could only afford to help with one not both.

[mona lot]

So do tell gl2651, did your ebay advert land you a 320/737 job?

CTC

set up by a bunch of greedy TREs and funded by weak individuals. I weep for my industry.

Silverhawk, hit the nail on the head:D:D:D. These con men are almost as low as certain bankers.

[20driver]

" Well here is a suggestion...we all tell BALPA that we want to go on strike until our employers reinstate those kind of opportunities!! "

That is is the only way it will change- until then people will do whatever it takes to get in the door.
20driver

[Aeroengineer1]

mad manc man

I wouldn't hire with those credentials even if he wishes to pay.

Anyway, I think airlines should be more careful nowadays in selection of FO candidates. I feel it became easier to become a commercial pilot, lately. It seems to me that anyone having some money around 80 thousand euros or less may receive a license. I even heard that some banks provide loans for attendance to a flight school. This became an industry.

[mona lot]

So gl2651 enlighten us, did your cynical attempt to highlight the plight of the desperate wannabe airline pilot work? Did you land an airline job?

http://rlv.zcache.com/zombie_pilot_hat-p148590103860264822qj0i_400.jpg

[gl2651]

4 years on im flying a 74-4 based in the UK, and laughing!

[Superpilot]

You mean you're having a laugh?
(on us?)

[captjns]

Not just F/Os on EBAY. There are captains takeing jobs with Ethiopian for $60.00 USD per day until line training is done. Flying revenue flight for $60.00 a day. How about that?:yuk:

[blind pew]

Well done. Enjoy your career - I know I have done.

[fade to grey]

How come ?
Did you buy another type rating ??
This debate's been done to death, but I felt sorry for the poor little 2 stripers in their shiny new uniforms in the B** crewroom when i was there....

So desperate to achieve their 'dream'......so much cash to pay with.

[spider_man]

I felt sorry for the poor little 2 stripers in their shiny new uniforms in the B** crewroom when i was there....

So desperate to achieve their 'dream'......so much cash to pay with.

Well they've effectively managed to buy themselves a job with BA on the babybus following the merger - skipped the bmi selection process by paying for the job, and then totally bypassed The Rivers too!

[Callsign Kilo]

Well they've effectively managed to buy themselves a job with BA on the babybus following the merger - skipped the bmi selection process by paying for the job, and then totally bypassed The Rivers too!

They'll be pissing themselves laughing at everyone. The guys from baby, the guys in the BA holdpool who won't be recruited, the guys who are trying to work their way up the ladder. Maybe one will be along soon to be all self righteous. Can't wait.

[fade to grey]

Wow, did they really ? Good for them.
It's a double edged sword this. If I was trying to get in now I'd probably have to do similar, but of course it demeans us in the long

[bex88]

Really?!!!!! I would be surprised if you could find even one example of those two strip F/O's at the airline you half mention that fit exactly what you are trying to portray. Well done to them I say

[Callsign Kilo]

I think you could. Was there not a hasty recruitment drive at bmi towards the end of 2011 due to a number of crew resigning, ironically leaving to join BA (among others?) I'm not talking vast numbers however I seem to recall rumour of P2F guys being recalled. Caused a **** storm amongst the baby and regional guys who felt that the positions should have been offered internally within the group. This was of course prior to the EUs acceptance of IAG's proposal to purchase bmi. It was suggested that these P2Fers would side step themselves into BA under TUPE regulations once the deal was approved. I think there is some substance in it.

[zeddb]

This so called career will be all over once oil prices get above $300 per barrel. The only option left will be to work for nothing in the Middle east. Enjoy.

Give it ten to fifteen years. You will still have to pay your giant p2f loans back though. Hope all that expensive hobby was worth it.

Who would like to be starting out now?

[bex88]

It was my understanding that the 2011 joiners all came from other airlines with a 320 type rating and experience. There maybe the exception but I think the whole thing being pressed is stretching the truth. Once the take over was suspected they did look to recruit but this was cancelled due to objections from within the group of companies. It's all water under the bridge I guess. If oil does that I don't think any industry or any person would be immune. Sounds a little bit bitter though

[press2test]

The story about the two 2 stripers is true, I know them both. One is now BA

[1013.25mb]

Callsign Kilo

You sometimes speak sense on these boards, but on this occasion you really are way wide of the mark and have no idea what you are going on about.

The 2011 joiners where all previously type rated (most where ex Midland anyway after the redundancies and where just coming back from the dessert.....) apart from 3. Midland recruited and paid for their A320 rating, some of them had already got quite a few hours jet experience but where Boeing rated rather than Airbus.

The more recent recruitment drive was to bring up the F/O numbers because Midland was extremely short of them. Ironically enough, some had left to join BA in BA's recruitment drive. The very few who actually joined had all been through a full selection process and where already A320 rated. They came from a number of different airlines. The Regional and Baby guys did object to this so the recruitment was stopped. The only effect this had was to increase the number of hours that current F/O's where flying, so really, it just meant that they worked harder and got paid more money.

This whole business of Pay 2 Fly people walking into a job at T5 (and "bypassing" The Rivers :rolleyes: ) simply isn't true.

Them's the facts, whether you like them or not.
(Don't let it ruin a good story though..... eh? :rolleyes: )

[Callsign Kilo]

1013.25

Fair enough. Glad to be put right on this occasion and that the nasty rumour has been put to bed. Probably just revelling in a bit of cloak and dagger now that the holdpool has been all but effectively dumped by BA. C'est la vie.

All the best

[1013.25mb]

Callsign Kilo

Everyone in the situation of the BA/bmi merger is disappointed about the hold pool and what has happened. We are all on the same side as pilots no matter who you work for, and to go through a recruitment process, pass, then be told there is no job at the end of it is a horrible thing, I have been there and had it happen to me. I really do feel for anyone in that situation.

It wont always be like this though, IAG did not buy bmi and merge it in to BA if they didn't have a game plan for long haul expansion.

All the best, and I'm sure we can chat about it all over a beer (or 2,3,4.....) down route in a few years! :)

[Callsign Kilo]

Thank you 1013.25. I agree 100% that everyone within the flight ops side of BA were in support of retaining the pool, including the recruiters. I hold no grudge against the bmi guys and accept and support a law like TUPE. I am glad that people kept their jobs as more unemployed pilots on the market simply allows people like MOL and those behind Flexicrew to cheapen T&Cs further. I'm a big boy and have started to move on from the disappointment. Life's to short.

Take it easy :ok:

[ROBMEDIUM]

FO on ebay isn't such a big deal, it seems you can advertise your goods on flight safety bulletin these days. What next sunglasses and cheap holidays?

[bex88]

1013.25 :D At last someone else who knows what actually happened. I was starting to get into the story as well. Especially the two people who are personally known by press2test (1st post?)

As has been said the hold pool thing is frustrating and I in that position would feel deflated to say the least, but it really is not the fault of 4, 3 or 2 stripers from bmi.

Lets all just trust the expansion which is proposed to come from the take over leads to jobs for all the hold poolers and baby guys!

[press2test]

Bex88 - That may have been my first post but I have been around for some time.

1013.25mb - "This whole business of Pay 2 Fly people walking into a job at T5 (and "bypassing" The Rivers ) simply isn't true."

Are you sure about that!

[1013.25mb]

press2test

Are you sure about that!

I shall make the assumption that is a question rather than a statement.

Yes, very sure.

Again, don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[vince13]

At least hookers ask for money.

[bex88]

On heavens no, they did not go to the rivers. Big deal, all the bmi pilots including the mythical unworthy Pay 2 fly guys had to get through a 18 day conversion course to enable them to fly BA metal. I understand there are some frustrated and angry guys out there but pointing the finger is not going to do anything. What is a pay 2 fly pilot? A captain of 13 years who initially self funded a 737 rating and then gained employment through the same company? Again good luck to them if it is true......but I am very sure its not.

[SR71]

Lets all just trust the expansion which is proposed to come from the take over leads to jobs for all the hold poolers and baby guys!

As far as the baby guys are concerned, more chance of a **** in the Queens handbag.