Pearl

[hurlingham]

Rumour has it that Pearl have been given notice on the NTAMS contract.

Any truth in it ?

[The Green Goblin]

Nope, as far as I'm aware its signed until 2013 :ok:

[BugSmasher80]

I heard they lost it too...

[The Green Goblin]

You might be thinking of Port Hedland being up for tender shortly?

[InTransit]

Dr Chris Burns
MINISTER FOR HEALTH

11 December 2008
Major Overhaul of Top End Aeromed Services

The Northern Territory Government will implement all of the recommendations of the Cornish review into the Top End aeromedical retrieval service.

“We want the best possible aeromedical service for the people of the Top End and these reforms will help achieve that,” the Health Minister Chris Burns said.

Dr Burns said the NT Government would immediately begin work on two of the main recommendations:

The implementation of a centralised clinical co-ordination system
$1 million has been made available to set up a co-ordination centre to ensure a more efficient aeromedical retrieval service

On top of this recommendation, the NT Government will spend $2 million to extend the overnight helicopter service until the middle of next year.

Adopt a best practice aircraft requirement and replacement program
The contract to operate the service will also be re-tendered to cater for increasing demand in regional and remote areas

“The implementation of a centralised clinical co-ordination system will give District Medical Officers a single point of contact to triage cases and lead to liaison with aviators, ambulance services and the receiving hospital.

“This will streamline our current operations and improve efficiency.”

“John Cornish also recommends fleet replacement of the present aeromedical fleet to improve aircraft availability and reliability,” Dr Burns said.

“Pearl Aviation has done an excellent job within the current contract parameters but procurement requirements mean a new tender must be let to meet that recommendation.

“The current fleet of planes require high levels of maintenance. Bringing in a newer fleet will reduce the time planes are out of action because of repairs.

“As soon as it is safe to do so, a fixed-wing aircraft will also be re-based in Katherine. In the interim, the dedicated, medically-equipped after-hours helicopter retrieval service will continue to service the region.”

Dr Burns said the five remaining recommendations of the Cornish review would mainly be progressed through the tender process.

“This is an important service for people living in Top End communities. This Government will ensure that increased demands on the service are met in an efficient and sustainable way.”

Press release from Chris Burns in relation to NTAMS...up for re-tender so they can action the recommendations from the Cornish report which can be found (in brief) on the web.

[DUXNUTZ]

Who else would do it besides Pearl?

[Under Dog]

"RFDS central"maybe.

The Dog

[Skystar320]

Plenty of operators I'd expect

Plenty of K200's, piper chieftain, metro's, BAe 32's are all available to be configured to EMS

[Wally Mk2]

now there's a smart man, 'Skystar 320' didn't mention the PC12, good onya mate:E

I think 'UD' might be saying his comments with a grin:EWe shall see:-)



Wmk2:-)

[neville_nobody]

Given that they are saying Pearl's B200's are to old I highly doubt that they will be pulling out 1970's chieftans to do aeromed. They will have to be looking at new PC12's or new B200's. It will be Pearl vs RFDS. The RFDS will want to centralise everything in Darwin or Katherine and then get new everything.

[Wally Mk2]

Too true 'nev' & the PC12 will most likely be the one due cost.




Wmk2

[Skystar320]

I dont think the age is the issue, its the service?

[gerkinburger]

I know that not many companies in the NT or anywhere else in Australia would be as safe as Pearl. They get delays and aircraft changes as the pilots are expected to ground the aircraft if there is any problems, also they are not left feeling guilty if the GPS or anything is not working and they do not want to fly it. Speak to any of the pilots and ask if Pearl is a safe company? It is such a shame that the NTAMS cntract will go to a company that will fly aircraft that should be grounded and they are not. Good luck to Pearl Aviation employees.

[Under Dog]

Quote Gerkinburger"
" It is such a shame that the NTAMS contract will go to a company that will fly aircraft that should be grounded and they are not"

I wouldn't tar all aeromed companies with the same brush, there's still plenty of good operator's out there that probably will bid for this contract.

The Dog

[Harry Cooper]

I really can't see the contract going back to anyone but Pearl. As the story said Pearl had done an excellent job within the parameters of the contract. The NT Govt had set those parameters in the first place - they stipulated that the old aircraft were to stay to avoid increased costs, unfortunately that has backfired. If and when the contract is canceled then Pearl are in for a substantial payout and I would think a fleet upgrade could easily be afforded and accomplished in time to re-tender for the new contract. Nick Paspaley has a lot of political pull in the NT and I can't imagine that this contract will disappear to another contender from outside the NT so easily. I am fairly certain that the process that is going on at the moment has been well planned and that the final outcome has already been decided.

[The Green Goblin]

I heard on the grapevine there will be 5 new King Airs out the front of Pearl very shortly.

This is a rumour network after all :ok:

[Counter-rotation]

And with the **** that goes down daily in that place, they deserve to lose it... As usual, CP fighting the good fight, as hard as he can (I have utmost respect for PV), crew and engineers doing their best, but management are ineffective and incompetent in the extreme.

:yuk: to the lazy, pen-pushing parasites.
CR.

[Wally Mk2]

That will be very interesting to see 'GG', 5x new B200's. Seeing as they would have to have been orderd from Beech a long time ago someone knows something we don't:) And that's not too mention the purchase price, could be as high as $30 mill, green!


Wmk2

[Under Dog]

Wally
Don't forget to mention that the medical fitout could take some months to do, specially if it was to be done in Australia.

The Dog:ok:

[Howard Hughes]

I heard on the grapevine there will be 5 new King Airs out the front of Pearl very shortly.
As Wally eluded to, I hope they were ordered two years ago!

Of course that might 5 'fairly new Kingairs' which could be done a lot quicker!;)

[Desert Duck]

If the NT Govt use the "Aeromed expert" to draw up the new tender then forget about the PC12.

Without going into SE vs ME and the phobias that some pilots and nurses suffer, it would be a shame not to consider the PC12.

You certainly get a lot more value for your dollar.

After all, the NT Govt already own two PC12s that the pollies regularly use.

[plasticmerc]

what would it be like to be in a pc12 in the middle of the monsoon season with all that lightning around?
who knows the size of the patients these days maybe a bigger a/c could be called for just like the NSW air ambo service.
I know KA stretcher lifter is capped at 180kg what is the PC12's?
the amount of medical quip carried these days could also justify a bigger cab?...
good luck to the boys and girls at Pearl I hope it all works out for you.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I would think there would be little chance anything other than a PC-12 will be chosen. The fact that the NT Gov't already use them means they endorse them for the operating environment. The current crews should have no probs with getting hired with any new operator. The only thing that may tip it in favour of the B200 is it's performance advantage (B200GT 305kts).

This could be interesting, either the contract will be re-negotiated with the current operator behind closed doors or it will be up for grabs. RFDS SC will certainly be interested but don't rule out SE, QLD and Western OPS. I am sure there are many private company's that would love to get a leg in on a state aeromed contract as well.

SN

[The Green Goblin]

Knowing the Pearl B200 boys there is fat chance they would hang around for a PC12 gig, most of them are pushing over 120K per year with allowances on the B200 and I doubt they will get the same conditions if another operator comes in and undercuts Pearls tender, especially if it's using an aeroplane which the pay scale is generally less.

There have also been plenty of PT6 shutdowns in the territory, many of those are fresh in the minds of the King Air boys, I highly doubt they will endorse a PC12 as good as the aeroplane might be! It would be a pretty lonely place at the pointy end of a PC12 during a wet season night approach if she coughed a few blades out the back!

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Green Goblin
Wow thats big dough! Better than any RFDS, PC-12 or B200 pilot I know. Should a new operator be awarded the run I would doubt those dollars would be in the offering. What tends to happen is current employees will be made redundant and then have the chance of being re-employed on new conditions, not saying this will happen, but it has in the past.

Agree with you on the merits of a twin Vs single but then again i'm a pilot not a number cruncher.

Man thats good money, I hope they get to stay on it!

SN

[morno]

120k, you sure? :confused:

[Pluto's gone]

Or someone could get Fenton's old Moth outa the old hanger down at Katherine and start back with the grass roots!

[maxgrad]

That one is better than the current fleet, bit small but what the hay!

[Wally Mk2]

'UD' I didn't mention the med fitout to the cost of a 'green' Beech, I didn't want to make this thread a total Beech lover(can't see why not though:E) All up at 2days prices a Beech flight-line ready in med is around $8.5 Mill, if there are 5X news ones about to magically appear then somebody has been very good at keeping it top secret. The Aero med industry isn't too secretive, everybody knows everybody's elses business.

'GG' $120K?...hmmmmmm, nah not even for that would I want to be 'behind' the engine of the plane I fly:ok:

As some have said most likely would be the PC 12 for the NT contract purely based on $$$'s, not safety.

The Pearl guys deserve every cent they get, they can have that stormy wx up there all to themselves thanks very much:ok:

Wmk2

[The Green Goblin]

120k, you sure

No :D

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story - Chopper Reid

Sometimes you've got to put the R in Pprune!

Now how 'bout them 5 King Airs?, I heard off the Gove refueler (Townsville refuelers mothers uncles grandson) that they were arriving on our shores powerless, and due to the fleet of grounded 441's unique to Australia, have decided for fleet commonality and cost effectiveness to have ex 441 331's slung over the wings under a cost reduction initiative ordered by the NT government. Rumour also has it that the following PC12's will have the same modification.

[the wizard of auz]

Ah, just get vans and hire braver pilots. Bloody girly girls. :E
Save a ton o bucks and can afford to pay drivers a real wage with a High risk component as an incentive or extra. :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Whats the average sector length?

[The Green Goblin]

Whats the average sector length?

As long as a piece of string!

[the wizard of auz]

and that string is usually exactly twice half of its length. :}

[PPRuNeUser0161]

If its such a wide range of sector lengths then the B200 GT would be the way to go!
SN

[Capt Claret]

Based in Katherine in the mid 90's, it was rare to do a sector much longer than an hour in the Kingair.

The Nomad was a different story. :{

[Towering Q]

what would it be like to be in a pc12 in the middle of the monsoon season with all that lightning around?



Maybe you could ask one of the Derby RFDS pilots, they seem to cope.

[OpsNormal]

Townsville refuelers mothers uncles grandson

No, actually he is in Mt Isa and rides a VT1000 smokes B+H smoothies and answers to many/most names you might think of at any one time.... No word of a lie!:ok::E

Love your work Rob! :ok:

[Stationair8]

Sounds like a typical NT government cockup! Is there a crocodile involved?

If Pearl tendered with old Kingairs, why didn't the dopey consult/government depatrment pickup on that point and make all tenderers use B200's less than 10 years old?

Pearl and Skywest have always provided a very good service to the NT over the years, but if the NT Government don't put up the cash to fund new aircraft, then Pearl aren't really to blame for tendering with old Kingairs.

[betaman]

Actualy they did tender with new Kingairs!!

From memory there were four options

*New B200's:ok:
*2nd hand B200's (low time & age):)
*PC12's:hmm:
*Refurb the current aircraft :sad:

The govt of the day (CLP I think) went for option 4 :ugh:

[Stationair8]

Government departments always want the best, but I have always found somewhere along line that they always go for the cheapest or most convient option.

I believe that is the hold up or delay with the Vic Air Ambulance contract. They wanted new aircraft but didn't like the price, so in the meantime the Aussie peso crashed back to 65 cents!

[bushy]

I bet the RFDS central section get it with PC12's and their own medical staff who will fly in singles.
They also have a commercial advantage the others do not have, in that they get their funds topped up by donations from the general public, bequests etc. They also used to get a dollar for dollar subsidy for aircraft purchases from the federal government.
So they can probably undercut the others. Except the religious ones who can do the same, and make their pilots organise a cash flow to pay their own wages and expenses.
The "not for profit" outfits are hard to compete with, and they distort the commercial world by keeping prices down so it is difficult for others to keep standards up at those prices.

[maxgrad]

RFDS may be hard pressed to supply drivers and rated medical staff.

Also depends on who is in bed with whom

[Desert Duck]

Unfortunately the NT Govt got exactly what they paid for -

very old aircraft tarted up, and the problems that go with them -

lets see if the ALP is smart enough to do it properly this time.

I won't hold my breath though.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Bushy
I'm pretty sure the RFDS dont do it "for free". A lot of effort goes into running one of these outfits.

We should also be careful not to tar all RFDS sections with the same brush, they are individual organisations run separately in there own way. The commercial world does not fiorgive anyone for screwing up, RFDS or otherwise.

SN

[bushy]

I know all those things, but that does not change anything.
There is no level playing field. The "not for profit" organisations can quote low and then get money from the public to make up the shortfall. The others cannot do that.
I wonder what the commercial regulator would make of that.

[Dances With Dingoes]

So they can probably undercut the others. Except the religious ones who can do the same, and make their pilots organise a cash flow to pay their own wages and expenses.

I did not think that happened anymore. Looks like the RFDS may be in for some tough competition if they take on NP AND GEA :E

Lets hope sanity prevails and all the NTAMS fellas and nurses get to keep their jobs. From what I know of the place there does not seem to bee too many worried people. Good luck to them.

DD

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Bushy
I don't understand, why would you quote low? If its the ecconomy of scale thing its no different to Qantas quoting on a job against VB.

As far as employment is concerned I'm pretty sure there would be no less pilots emmployed under the RFDS than are currently employed with Pearl.

SN

[morno]

Bushy, you seem to have something against RFDS, why??

Did they turn you down for a job once?

morno

[bushy]

No I don't, and they didn't.
The facts are, For decades I have watched operators struggle to make ends meet while they tried to compete with various "not for profit" organisations that could get subsidised by fund raising from the general public and /or churches/government.
Wouldn't it be great for the bean counters if each pilot had to raise enough money to pay his own wages and expenses. There is one of these, and it's hard to compete with an organisation that does not have to earn enough money to pay wages.
This sort of thing is one of the reasons why GA is impoverished, and there are hardly any new aircraft.

Do you think CASA would give an AOC to a "not for profit" airline that relied on bequests and public appeals so they could compete with qantas?

[Counter-rotation]

Station Air 8 - You're right on re: options offered :ok:

Desert Duck - Yep NT Govt in general (NT Health any more of less so?) is "typical Govt." as you and Station Air 8 accurately described.

Bushy - Agree with what you're saying, but I have to say that at least RFDS might get some sort of outcome for the patients. Pearl really aren't the quality operator they once were. The aeromed contract, whilst it is underfunded by the client (the NT Govt), is still poorly managed. The "real client" (the patients!) often suffer as a result of this as much as anything else.

CR.

[morno]

Soooo, what you're saying bushy is that RFDS aren't one of those operators you're talking about? Because RFDS pay their pilots quite well. And in the grand scheme of things, donations, bequests etc. count for a very small part of their 'income'.

morno

[betaman]

Morno,

Bushy, you seem to have something against RFDS, why??

Did they turn you down for a job once?

morno


Thanks for that Tinpis, an interesting read.

He really does slam Pearl Av's King Air's! For good reason though. An unreliable aeromedical outfit, is nearly as good as nothing at all.

morno


Does the old saying "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" mean anything to you?;)

[betaman]

Morno,


Soooo, what you're saying bushy is that RFDS aren't one of those operators you're talking about? Because RFDS pay their pilots quite well. And in the grand scheme of things, donations, bequests etc. count for a very small part of their 'income'.

morno


You left out the tax breaks which are not an insignificant part of their bottom line.:ok:

[morno]

Does the old saying "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" mean anything to you?

It does, but I'm confused as to what you're talking about in this instance. Please explain, :confused:.

morno

[betaman]

Morno,

Both quotes are from YOU on different threads relating Pearl/NTAMS. So mate if you can't work it out then why should I waste my time trying to explain to you.:ugh:

By the way just found this on the net relating to RFDS 2006 Financial Report Qld section.

OPERATING RESULT AND
REVIEW OF OPERATIONS
The operating result for the year was a surplus of
$3,886,000. (2005:$1,993,000). No income tax is
payable as the Service is exempt under Australian
taxation legislation.

Financial Report 2006
In AUD
Revenue
Commonwealth Government Operating Grants 7,195,000
State Government Operating Grants 17,399,000
Specific Project Operating Grants 4,043,000
Visitor Centre Sales and Admissions 275,000
Total 28,912,000

Other Income
Bequests 2,592,000
Donations 3,335,000
Net gain on disposal of property, P&E 88,000
Other Income 958,000
Total 6,973,000

And in the grand scheme of things, donations, bequests etc. count for a very small part of their 'income'.

morno

Yeah I guess your right nearly 6 mil a year is only about 16% of their income "very small indeed". Some commercial companies make significantly less than that as profit, if it at all, plus they have to pay company tax:hmm:

[maxgrad]

Morno,

I am only responding to the posted quote above, which may be out of context.

Thanks for that Tinpis, an interesting read.

He really does slam Pearl Av's King Air's! For good reason though. An unreliable aeromedical outfit, is nearly as good as nothing at all.

morno

An unreliable medical outfit can be interpreted a number of ways, I hope you are just talking a/c and not staff.


You might recall another aeromed set up that uses a piston powered job:eek:

[Counter-rotation]

Hit a nerve?

Some of the crew are less than helpful, and you KNOW that. You know who they are too. Maybe I am one, maybe not...

General morale is very low I would say, and the tight roster, late rosters, short notice changes, etc. are definitely a part of that. Exacerbated by managements complete faliure to acknowledge/address same. A wise man once said, "if you don't learn from your mistakes, you are condemned to repeat them" - well, it seems they haven't learnt yet.

And this KTR thing... I will admit, I can't say how I would react, if my job effectively became FIFO before my very eyes... But I think the deals done, and two tier working conditions, BLDSO etc. are a pretty good trade-off.

Flame away, if you feel the need... I'm more than ready. If you disagree, and care for an adult discussion then that's also an option. :) Maybe I'm wrong and you can correct me...

CR.

[maxgrad]

Yes I do know who you are.
In my last past I intended to highlight that, yes the a/c are the intended target and not crew who are very hard working and dispite situations still get on with the business of safe legal flying.

This is a public forum so I invite you to ph me, you have my number, for this discussion in private where it should be kept.:=

[the wizard of auz]

Hey........ no fun like that. how we all going to put our 2c worth of dubious knowledge in?. :E:E

[morno]

Maxgrad, should have worded that better, I was referring to the aircraft only. I don't know any of the staff to be able to make a comment on them.

betaman, I'd still stick with small, :hmm:, 16% isn't exactly big is it?

morno

[betaman]

Morno,

Yep $6 million is not much when you say it fast & it is given to you tax free.:rolleyes:

Almost buy a new B200, minus an engine or PC12 with paint;)

P.S. If you guys don't need it why not donate said monies to NTAMS, probably double their budget:ok:

[maxgrad]

Morno
Thought that was the case just wanted clarification.

Would be nice to see any new a/c! Prefer two donks but hey thats just me

[Stationair8]

Going to cost the NT government a few dollars!
Lets see;

1. 4 B200's or PC-12's plus spares that would come close to $20-25 million,

2. Hangar and office at Darwin $1.5 million a year, can't really see Pearl saying to another operator here use ours, plus Tindal and Gove would be $500,000 a year between the two bases.

3. Pilot wages Minimum 4 in Gove, 4 in Tindal plus a holiday relief and 6 in Darwin and a couple of check and trainers and a chief pilot. At least three or four engineers in Darwin. Remote allowance for the guys at Gove and Tindal.

4. Plus a few administration staff.

All ads up to a few dollars for the Chief Minister to sign off on.

[Wally Mk2]

4X B200's will cost around $40Mill+ to buy & operate & that's providing the the new provider/s have a well set up infrastructure in place already.
Will the Nt Govt have such funds at hand? We shall see:-)
It's a commercial venture, Amann Aviation could even go for it but I doubt it after what the Nt Govt did at the time(makes for very interesting reading that stunt):} Anything is possible when the Govt is involved!:bored:
As long as the current pilots/support teams are kept dry & warm of a winter time (if that ever happens up there!) then that's all that matters.



Wmk2

[Pera]

Surely you would lease the aircraft for the duration of the contract, unless those figures are for leasing!

[Counter-rotation]

Maxgrad,

There is much focus on the current aircraft, the problems they pose, and possible solutions to that. Fair enough - but with a perfect fleet, dispatch would still be FAR FROM GUARANTEED.

I strongly believe, the "unreliable" nature (ie. no dispatch) of this service (NTAMS) is also often due to lack of crew - you would have to agree, surely?! I have seen it, and been it myself, and I know I'm certainly not the only one. How many hours of coverage would you estimate are lost every month because there is no crew, due to simple things like sick leave, or delays = overruns + no reserve or other contingency = lost coverage next shift? (And much more - PM to follow shortly)

1) Some of these things are due to management and the terms of the contract - which like the aircraft, always comes back to money. I think it is worth discussing that too, and so I raised it here (again).

2) Some are purely crew related. And as a backdrop to all that, the latest round in the CA discussion is kicking off. What can we possibly say about that?! (I reckon your thoughts would be identical to mine.)

Yes, PM to follow shortly... (Don't wag your bloody finger at me please) :=

CR.

[Counter-rotation]

Betaman,

You are spot on re: the tax-free $6 million. But they won't be giving it away, they do need it... (Without it maybe the RFDS would be clunking along like NTAMS.)

Nice thought you had, but if those $$$ are up for grabs, whatever you do DO NOT GIVE IT TO NTAMS or PEARL!!!

It would simply be wasted, achieving nothing... Better that RFDS use it and at least get some patients to hospital in reasonable time.

CR.

[the wizard of auz]

Yeah, only took em four months to get me there. I would have walked if my back wasn't so bad. if I was a local and stubbed my toe I would have been flown out without hesitation. spare 6Mill would buy some nice meals and wine for upper management. why I stopped donating....... I saw where it was going and on the three times it was required by my family we were rejected.
you should see what goes on up here with them.

[Desert Duck]

Wiz

Dont blame the RFDS.

Generally a Doctor employed by the State or Territory Health Dept is the one who tasks / or does not task the RFDS Crew.

[Towering Q]

only took em four months to get me there

Yeah, but you know you were flying with the best.:cool: