Archerfield flying schools

[The_Pharoah]

hi all

there is a current thread on Bankstown flying schools which, although interesting, doesn't affect me up here in lovely Brissie. There hasn't been a brisbane-flying-school-specific thread for a while (and times are changing fast).

For those in the know, what is the status of our local flying schools and, if I had to start, which would be the best? I'm looking at RQAC but they're a bit more expensive than the others however I'm sure this is a 'you get what you pay for' thing right?

Anyway, I'm looking forward to responses.

Thanks

[seneca208]

Another one of these threads..

Ive done some checking around. RQAC is way too expensive ($19k ++ for PPL) and FTA/AV8 have gone to the ****ter (apparently)

Ive narrowed my selection down to Gil Laytes Flying School, and Sunland Aviation. Both are reasonabley affordable in comparison to RQAC (not cheaper than AV8 though.) Depends what aircraft you want to fly I guess.

This is just from my research though. Im looking to start training soon and really interested in everybody's recent opinions of this.

[merlinn]

I am due to move to brisbane soon, have been looking at these guys Redcliffe Aero Club (http://www.redcliffeaeroclub.com.au/)

[DanArcher]

from my time up there in brissy redcliffe wins hands down and by a long way,

but for the best I found in SE Qld, if you your up for a drive to maroochydore can highly recomend these guys Aero Dynamic Flight Academy (http://www.flyaerodynamic.com/)

[DanArcher]

Hey Merlinn,

whats happening at AV8 in darwhine??

[AussieNick]

yes would love to hear how the ol' flying school in darwhine is going

[merlinn]

All good as far as I know, not sure what the schools plans are as far as growth etc, but you have to book in advance a lot of the time to get a slot with the instructor.

[The_Pharoah]

is there a problem with AV8 in Archerfield?

[bizzybody]

is there a problem with AV8 in Archerfield?

yes the owner is a ******

my thoughts on the person only (but im sure its been documented)

[The_Pharoah]

without getting personal, could you pls elaborate? ie. training standards, a/c, instructors, etc? I'd like to find out as much as possible.

[BugSmasher80]

At Archerfield there is only one person you need to see and thats Brian Westin at Sunland. A career instructor with REAL remote GA experience as well. An absolute gentleman and wealth of experience and knowledge.

[nightmode]

Ditto on Brian Westin. Learn't a lot from him in a short time!. Also Steve Taddeucci from Gil Layts is excellent.

The real value in training comes from an instructor who knows how to fly and teach, not so much the name on the flying school door.

[mates rates]

The redcliffe aero club appears to be quite good.They have a well organised and orderly operation.The aircraft appear clean and well maintained.I don't know about the standard of instructing.There appears to be a shortage of instructors and consequently a problem getting bookings,unless you book well in advance.As for Archerfield, Brian Westin has the best reputation.He is a good instructor but demands a high standard and calls a spade a spade.He jokes when it's time for jokes but is serious when it is time to be serious.So if YOUR serious about your training and study,Sunland it the place to go.If your looking for the easy way through your training give Sunland a miss.

[The_Pharoah]

thanks for the responses guys :ok:

[Sir HC]

Air Pioneer in Mackay or Bob Harris in Innisfail might be worth considering, they have some fantastic contacts in the places you are most likely to get your first job and NQ in winter is just perfect. Just my 2c worth.

[scavalenger]

Definately Redcliff or Maroochedore would be good for both theory and flying..ask for Richard Beer in Redcliff, great experience chief pilot for charter company in Darwin.

I am not sure about Archerfield, I was in Brisbane on Sunday before I fly off to Darwin, I quickly needed to buy an ERSA (since there's no pilot shop in DWN) so I dropped in Archerfiled and it was like a ghost town. Pilot supply shop is closed on Sunday so I thought any flying schools would sell ERSA so I went around every single school but surprised to see they all shut. I was trained in Bankstown many years ago and even on Sundays, YSBK would be busy like anything. I am not sure if it's good or bad not being busy training airport but perhaps you'll get alot of flying done without worrying about availibility of the aircraft or instructor.

[merlinn]

check this guys website pharoah, Welcome to Shane Wise's Flying Circuits Website (http://www.flyingcircuits.com.au/index.html) you might have already seen it, but I thought it was a good read about his experiences at Redcliffe

[ABC LOVER]

Try Darling Downs Aero Club in Toowoomba. One of the best schools in SEQ.

Good luck with your endeavour!

[The_Pharoah]

this stuff is gold (esp Shane Wise's blog). :ok:

[Gibbo_335]

Hi Guys,

Shane Wise here! WOW!!! Thanks for the kudos :ok: on the website Pharoah and Merlinn, it'll be back up to date asap, been doing ME-CIR and finishing off CPL so time has been short! :) Cheers for that.

Also Pharoah if you are still looking for a school give Redcliffe a call :cool:
Quick fleet run down for you, 3 x 172SP (2000, 2002 and 2004 models) 2 x 152, 2 x 182 1 x 172N and PN68 Partenavia (ME ME-CIR), and x-hired C310R and Navajo AND a few more planes in the pipeline for this year!!!;)
AND possibly the best instructors (knowledge and attitude) in Brissy!!!
www.redcliffeaeroclub.com.au (http://www.redcliffeaeroclub.com.au)

Cheers
Shane

[TonKat]

No hesitation to recommend Steve from Gil Layte's - he is a no nonsense instructor who knows the important stuff

[The_Pharoah]

any idea what the costs of flying are for Gil Layt's? ie. GFPT/PPL/CPL/ME-CIR

[seneca208]

Also very keen on a price for PPL at Gill Laytes..

[privateer01]

Good thread....heading over there in about three weeks...

Anyone have a recommendation for an ATP conversion instructor?

[Aerohooligan]

YBAF. One of the last of a dying breed. Ladies and gentlemen, I feel the GAAP aerodrome will soon be a thing of the past. Despite the attraction of a CTA environment and a control tower; the inability of Airservices to attract enough ATC to staff the damn things, the insensitivity of private owners to the needs of struggling GA operators and the endearing tendency for pilots to come charging in without the foggiest idea of GAAP procedures and regrettably occasionally suffer the ultimate in consequences has spelt doom for these little suburban oases of the ultimate freedom.

I ask you though, why even consider Archerfield at all? The reasons I gave at the outset should surely be enough to discourage anyone who knows what they are doing from considering any one of the eight (?) GAAPs around the country, but YBAF in particular, along with its cousins Jandakot, Moorabbin and Bankstown, appears to be in its death throes. The criminally exorbitant fees charged by Mr Campbell and his AAC cronies are forcing many business to shut up shop for good, or at best relocate to more aviation friendly parts of the South East - which are few and far between for the perpetual battlers of GA.

YBAF is one of those places that drains the soul. That feeling of wonder we no doubt all feel when we look up and see a jet pass overhead, or the joy of nothing but air supporting our weight when we are taken aloft, are feelings all but destroyed when looking out across the vast expanse of mission brown desolation that is this once great aerodrome. A piece of history slowly being whittled away into nothing but the blank, subtly undulating greyness of industrial building projects.

I am not completely disenchanted by YBAF however, nor should anyone be. There are still some things to be seen and done that cannot be experienced anywhere else. A 6am departure into the rising sun, out over the bay for some stomach churning fun, annoying the neighbours in the southern training area with FLWOP practice at all hours, the thundering departure of the Rolph-Smith Trojan and Yaks and low-level circuits in a Duchess just a few hundred feet over Canossa hill are things that can be replicated elsewhere, but never duplicated.

I trained there, so I will always love Archerfield in a strange way. There will always be a little piece of my heart that leaps for joy passing overhead on the Brisbane 01 ILS, or hearing the voices of the long-suffering but always professional controllers on duty, just as there will always be that subtle sinking feeling as I cross the threshold into what feels like the final wheezing gasp of recreational but professional flying in the area.

Archerfield, I love and hate you all at once.

[Austrian_Pilot]

I am from Austria (Central Europe) and I want take flighing lessons in Australia.
My uncle is living next to the Forestdale Park 10 Nm south of Archerfield.
I have allrady a sailplane rating with approximately 150 flight hour.
The next step would be the PPL possibly with IFR.

What flight school can you recommend?
I think about:
1) Royal Queenland Aero Club
2) AV8 Brisbane
3) Sunland Aviation
4) Flight training Australia

Do you have any other ideas?

Thanks for helping!!
greets
Fritz

[Maloo]

Aerohooligan, I'm with you. Love the aerodrome but it's sad to say Redcliffe aero club would have to be the pick of the flying schools now. RQAC comes a close second because it is a good vibe and you can actually get a lesson. The cost of it makes it come second in my view.

This came straight from the AAC CEO's mouth (and please don't shoot the messenger). When they do their next master plan they are going to look at the option of trying to extend the runway to fit a small passenger jet in there. I know it would take a lot of work but if they could put Beatty road under the runway it could happen along with the co-operation of a lot of people. The moral of the story is that the airport still wants to be an airport but the commercial reality is that it needs to have some industrial tennants.

Enough from me,

Cheers all

[Zoomy]

(nothing but air supporting our weight)

Aerohooligan,

Meatbombs fall through the air and require parachutes to avert a certain fate. I think also a plane would fall through the air for the same reasons. On the ground the earth supports our weight, in the air we require LIFT.

Just an important correction, although I agree with some of your gripes with AAC.

[FourBalls]

If it is not the air supporting our weight are you suggesting that, in the extreme case, conventional flight in a vacuum is possible and that variations in air density are of no concern to aviators.:confused:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/d/b/7/db7735d03f8de6082982164856a0d8ba.png

L is lift force,
ρ is air density
v is true airspeed
A is platform area, and
CL is the lift coefficient at the desired angle of attack

If p = 0, there is no lift.

[privateer01]

Well...I used Stewie over at BYAF outa the RQAC.

Great guy.

Yeah GAAP's are retarded.

Hello Shane met ya while I was there....dropped in with stewie and his Seneca.

[Zoomy]

Oh Four Balls, you are so right. So sorry. I WILL SAY AGAIN, LIFT supports our weight. Air is the medium in which we create lift yes.

If you drop your Four Balls how hard will they fall without LIFT do you think.

[Danou_71]

I did my licence there in 96 and was pleased with them. Good instructors and a nice family run flying school.
Could someone give me some fresh news from them via PM, please? Many thank's

D_71

[seneca208]

Went into Gill Laytts a few months back..

Cheapest place at YBAF for your PPL, but also one of the worst value. Flying the C150, GFPT is around 8k and PPL in the 172/PA-28 is 18k, is another 8k or so, at least thats what they allow.

The place, well, IMO its a bit seedy. Whenever I went in there, nobody was there except Gill sitting down having a smoke on the couch. But, its cheap, so who cares.

If possible, I'd stay away from YBAF, its possibly the worse training area in Australia atm. Some of the worst landing fees too, $28 I think they are now. :ugh:

[AQIS Boigu]

What happened to FTA??? I thought that used to be the most prestigious place....

I can certainly recommend to go up north... If I have had to do it all over again I would have gone to Bob Harris or a smaller flying school north of Rocky or Mackay... Although the training I received was pretty good YBAF's schools take your money and all you hear is "thanks for coming...see'ya..."

Someone like Bob Harris or owners/instructors of similar smaller flying schools can help you find your first job or at least can put you in the right direction...

[The_Pharoah]

okay peeps, now I've narrowed it down and I need your input (FWIW :}). I'm planning on doing my CPL + ME/CIR at Archerfield (Redcliffe is unfortunately too far from where I live which is next to Archerfield!!) and I've narrowed it down to the following:

1. RQAC
- CPL + ME/CIR = $79k
- ATPL = $5k

2. Gil Layts
- CPL + ME/CIR = $75k

3. Sunland
- CPL only = $55k

4. FTA
- CPL + ME/CIR = $69.5k
- ATPL = $3k

Now I know each flying school has its pros and cons but I'd like to hear a bit more, hopefully from those who have been there recently.

Cheers

Pharoah

[wildcard11]

Hey Just dropped into the conversation & saw the pricing so I thought I might but in. Up to you if you take the advice or not..

RQAC - I think at the moment are the best shot as
1- They aren't going to go bust
2- You can do everything under the one roof

Gil Laytts - Are they still doing or able to do ME/CIR? I thought they were a total VFR school now:confused:

FTA - Still not sure about them if you look a similar posts. I have also had personal dealings with them that I won't go into. :mad:

Sunland - Good as per previous post's regarding Brian Westin & the others. But you can't do it all in the same place to get a package deal.

Did you have a look at Flight one? www.flightone.net.au (http://www.flightone.net.au) David St John there is a great bloke I did my instructors rating with him years ago. So I know he iron the wrinkles out.

Hope all goes well :ok:

[ravan]

Sunland for CPL. Brian Westin has forgotten more about GA commercial ops than most of us have learnt... Used to work with him and learned a lot..he's a hard but fair task master and you would enjoy flying with him.

FTA ... strong focus on foreign contracts ... 'nuff said.

RQAC ... no first hand experience of them (but maybe a bit like FTA?)

Gil Layt's ... more laid back and perhaps more personal attention ... not a sausage factory.

Just my two bobs worth.

[Torquatus]

The main points for me about RQAC are that I've always had the same instructor, and I can get the airframe I want when I am able to fly (about twice or three times a month on weekends - full time job to fund it :ok:). One of the factors is that I want to rent aircraft from there when I'm finished, so it made sense to go there.

They do seem to be doing a fair bit of international stuff, but I haven't had a flight cancelled because of it and the foreign students are friendly and polite.

[longrass]

Hmmmmm.... Went through all the Brissy schools about three years ago and found that,

FTA: Instructors to cocky, to much "Guild of Air Pilots and Navigators" exclusivety amongst senior pilots. Very foreign student orientated. **** aircraft for top dollars.

RQAC: Heres a computer, come play flight simulator, heres another computer, now pay me $3.5K and do you theory on that. Not to bad a fleet, a little expensive although once again, very focused on foreign studies and student (MCPL).

Arena/AV8/Whatever else has failed: Kept going broke, or moving building, stealing money and owner a dick.

Sunland: Had the cirrus, charged to much and thats as much as I know.

Redcliffe: Awesome instructors, easy to get booking (in the early days), cheap and nasty as well as cheap and awesome aircraft, big +++'s.

Downs Aero Club: Good Ol' fashion Aero Club, basic service, always time for a coffee, old planes, average price, good quality instructors.

Innisfail Aero Club: Farkin awesome instructor, good planes, good prices, good airport, good town, close to mission beach, heaps of chicks and if you get signed of on MECIR or CPL from the CFI you earnt it. Bloody Good!

If you are going to quote prices from start to finish dont, its a waste of time, all schools are going to rape and leach more money out of you than what they say. Better of to look at the hourly rate on the aircraft you wish to use.....

[Ando1Bar]

RQAC: Heres a computer, come play flight simulator, heres another computer, now pay me $3.5K and do you theory on that. Not to bad a fleet, a little expensive although once again, very focused on foreign studies and student (MCPL).


Things have changed in the last three years, very little CBT now. The guys that were using the computers for theory in the last 18 months were Fast Track, who in turn were using RQAC as their training provider.

95% of their students (RQ & AAA) are Australian. There is a bigger focus on the Aussie market rather than foreign students. They've got the approvals so there are some international students.

Although it is owned by RQAC, the Airline Academy of Australia has a different AOC and very different style of training from the aero club(focusing on full-time courses). Some people are getting the two confused.

[wateroff]

Make sure u ask who there has flow for an airline

[the air up there]

Pharoah, I have never been to Archerfield or even stepped foot in any of the flying schools there. But, from what I have heard, and from what I have read here give Sunland a try.

Every newby needs an instructor or CFI that has been there done that and won't pander to your feelings but will tell you how it is, even if they say "that was complete ****". Hurts at the time, but they know that your career and future well being is in their hands and thats why they say it. If the instructor has bush experience then that is 10x better than instructors that have never left the training area save for a few trips out west to get command hours up.

If you want somewhere that can give you an insight into airline experience, go to Johnstons at Port Mac. Jamie has all the knowledge a newby could ask for, plus a few contacts around the traps for jobs if your there at the right time.

Wateroff, a good question, just make sure people that they don't misinterpret the question as "Who wants to fly for an airline??"

[hogey74]

I am training at RQAC - people OK, aircraft old (try 30 years) but well looked after. Sunland is all Cirrus after GFPT... Shorter cross country flights and 20+ years younger must be good! FTA just merged with AV8 and a lot of staff left including the CFI - a lot of people disliked new owner/manager apparently. Time will tell, but has not been smooth - aircraft were grounded temporarily while a new CoA was sought, apparently. Flying again now though. Gil Layte is supposed to be OK - a long time out on the airfield. Don't forget AAA - part of RQAC but a different focus heaps bigger and they have some newer Cessnas and Diamonds. I am happy with RQAC. Archerfield Airport Corp need to have their lease voided though - maybe they are decent people but the whole arrangement stinks and YBAF has grass/gravel cross wind runways! Apparently they want to sell off that part of the field but are not currently allowed.

[The_Pharoah]

whats this saying about Sunland?


Sunland Aviation at

[PlankBlender]

Gil only goes up to CPL, no instrument training at all. Agree on the 'seedy' comment, the feel when you go in there is just wrong, IMHO he's a remnant from a bygone era at the field and should probably call it a day and enjoy his retirement..

Brian has left Sunland, and they're looking for a new CFI/CP according to the AFAP site, which is a shame as Peter is a top bloke & pilot. They're enough other quality instructors left (e.g. Roy, ex CFI & airline captain) to make them worthwhile a closer look. Through the Cirrus affiliation they also have access to wealthy owners/operators, which job-wise is probably not a bad thing. They've recently taken on young instructors I hear, so there's activity there. Probably the most flexible outfit on the field (re. pace, training in own aircraft, aircraft you use, etc.), and one 'freelance' instructor in particular who's top notch for CPL/MECIR stuff. PM me for details.

Sunland is all Cirrus after GFPT...

Not true, did CIR there in own aircraft, they have PA28's and other aircraft and it's up to the student's preferences and budget.

IMHO it's Sunland & Flight One sharing the top spot, the others at YBAF I'd avoid, if you're into aeros/taildragger I'd have a good look at the new school at Redcliffe - don't know the name off the top of my head, not the RAA outfit, Gerry ex RAC, not sure if he does instrument training though..

[Dnav31]

Heard along the grapevine that RQAC/AAA will have a brand new Citabria at the end of the year....Anyone else heard this?

[Dnav31]

Guys, when looking at flying schools, please keep in mind, Compare apples with apples. What prices are they quoting you? Are they CASA minimums, or more. If they are more, than more than likely, they are a bit more realistic. This is across the board, GFPT,PPL,CPL,MECIR. Anyone can quote on minimums, to make themselves look cheap, but how much is this going to blow out?

[MCKES]

Dnav I think the citabria/decathlon may be Sunland :E

[mates rates]

Sunland will have a Citabria in the next few weeks.

[PlankBlender]

do tell more, mates rates, are they going to be offering aerobatics and who'll be doing it?

[Jazzy78910]

I'd like to offer another plug to Redcliffe Aero Club.
I'm nearing the end of my PPL, and I've been completely happy with:
- Quality Instructors
- Casual Friendly Approach
- Quality Aircraft
- Great training-program structure
- Great Aerodrome, with no landing fees, and good crosswinds for practice on some days

One thing I've become aware of, is when 'shopping' for a school all the quoted prices are really just rough estimates. If one school is 5% cheaper than another, ignore the difference because no one ever finishes in minimum hours and prices WILL increase at some stage during your training. So the cheapest school now, may no longer be in 3 months when you're neck-deep in training and study.

At the end of the day, they are all going to empty your account, so choose a school based on the Instructors who work there. They are the one's who'll make or break the experience.

(I hear that Redcliffe has ordered a 172 with G1000 Glass Cockpit too, woot!)

Jazz

[Zoomy]

Whats this about BW leaving Sunland? Why? Thats gotta hurt the joint!
Does anyone know what he is doing or where he has gone?

[Dnav31]

MCKES,

Pretty reliable source from this end! Unless there are 2 arriving!

[mates rates]

Yes the plan is to do basic aerobatics and the tailwheel endorsements.Don't know who will do the aero's though.

[MCKES]

DNAV yes there must be two arriving as Sunland is according to the aca website the australian distributor for aca aircraft and they will be getting a glass cockpit version within the next one to two months probably the same time as when the other one is arriving. :ok:

[hohomme]

Anyone knows where does Brian Westin work for after leaving Sunland?
cheers mate

[thebun88]

Thought I might add although its been said before re: Gil Layts.

I went in the other day to do a theory test and it was very seedy. A wafting stench of cigarette smoke engrained into the walls (they'll quite happily smoke in the offices), furniture, computers and wall pinups from decades ago. If your looking for a professional outfit then look elsewhere (first impressions count!).

[alphawhiskeytango]

Can anyone post some contructive views on Aero Dynamic Flight Academy at Maroochydore in particular their MECIR course.

[shorty81]

Hi Alpha,

I would give you some info on the Aero Dynamic MECIR but as I run the course it might be best if someone else makes comment as I might be a bit Biased :)
If you want to chat you can call 07 5448 9555

Mitchell

[Torquatus]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but there was a blue Citabria parked outside RQAC when I was there on Saturday.

Not sure who's it is, but DM seemed to be the one instructing in it.

[SM227]

probably BWR, cross-hired from air gold coast I believe.

[Torquatus]

Yes, I think it was BWR.

[huntsman]

i went into Gil Layts shop the other day - it didn't smell!
nice people too.

[MikeAlphaCharlie]

I recently attained my GFPT at Gil Layt's (albeit over the quoted $7,500) and would recommend the school to any budding new pilot. Yes, the building and furniture are old-school, and yes, you will be learning in fairly old aircraft (2X C150's, 2X C172's and some Pipers).
What they have going for them though is what makes them a worthwhile consideration- 3 excellent instructors in Steve Taddeucci (CFI), Rob Agar-Wilson, and Fab the Frenchman who conducts lessons on weekends. What you also get is 1 on 1 briefings and tuition at no extra cost, as you will only be charged tacho' time when using the aircraft. Everybody there are only too willing to help and even Gil himself is happy to answer any questions you may have on the complexities of flying.

[The_Pharoah]

MAC

how much over the $7,500 and in what hours?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

NEW Decathlon has arrived at Sunland.

(Bit more confidence inspiring than 20yo wood spars.)

New American Champion distributors.

[djpil]

That should cheer up the local aerobatic pilots, MakeItHappenCaptain, assuming that it is for hire.

Nothing wrong with a good wood wing though although I agree that the metal spars are more robust - I still wouldn't do snap rolls in it.

[disturbedone]

If you can hack the drive, Air Gold Coast at Coolangatta were heads and shoulders above anything at AF a couple of years ago. Good owner and instructors; not just after your money.

[MikeAlphaCharlie]

The Pharoah,

GFPT took me around 45 hrs and cost me approx. 11k. Admittedly, both those figures would have been lower if I had prepared myself properly before each lesson ie. knowing what I did wrong previous lesson so to improve next lesson, learning radio calls, landing checks, forced landing procedures etc.
Ecconomically, the biggest lesson I learnt- BE PREPARED! (also makes it less frustrating for instructors!)

[triathlon]

Steer clear of FTA. A very disorganised outfit. Run by a man (PB)more interested in how much money you can hand over to him than the training he can provide you. Destroyed a reputable flying school.

RQAC- You will do OK there.

My bet- Go to Sunland. Caters for all. Small outfit which means you get good one on one training.

[The_Pharoah]

I've decided to give Gil Layt's a look-in.

[Zordah]

Thanks for the timely comments Mike. I am about to start learning to fly and was considering to go with Gil Layt's school as I also live fairly close to Archerfield.

I went in last Friday and although yes the office was looking a bit tired I managed to chat to Steve about the process and felt quite comfortable with him.

Pharoah, did you end up going with GL? What was your experience like?

[The_Pharoah]

mate, check your PMs

[intheozone]

My 2 cents

I recently finished my CPL at RQAC and although there were elements that pissed me off. Having seen and heard some storys from other pilots they are nothing.

Instructors are great. The price quoted is what you pay. if you are organised there is no reason why you can't finish a CPL in as little as 9 months, I Did, and the Fast Track Pilot Training guys that use the club finish in less than 6 months with MECIR.

I wish I had stayed at RQAC to do my MECIR.

There are options to do other endorsements like formation flying. And they help out with career options.

Good luck