Atlas/AABO

[Drzito]

Can somebody explain the following?

I find the latest furlough/downgrades about to occur at Atlas a big disappointment for everybody, but specially the newly upgraded Captains. How is it possible that Atlas mainline takes the big hit with 70 furloughs, and several downgrades, and displacements while AABO is only downgrading 3 people, and ZERO furloughs..... Amazing!!!

Scenario 1-
If Atlas is affected AABO should be affected, if everything went by date of hire ALL AABO pilots will be downgraded SAVING ALL mainline Captains, there will still be furloughs, but at least the pain is being shared!!!!

Scenario 2-
If they are to be treated different because of super seniority, then they still need to show downgrades, AND FURLOUGHS proportinate to Atlas. 3 Downgrades is not ENOUGH!!

Any comments? Time to do something!

[JohnGalt]

Relax,

Dave Bourne and the Teamsters have everything under control.

[Beaver_Driver]

My guess is that, with the Democrats in control, and several million out of work in the US, the AABO boys should probably dust off the old CV. Congress will not stand for outsourcing anymore - that goes for MX as well as pilots.

I hope you had a fun few years of flying boyz.


Teamsters Lobbying Effort
The Teamsters Airline Division remains dedicated to ending foreign aircraft maintenance outsourcing and is fighting for an amendment to the 2009 stimulus package that would place a temporary moratorium on this practice. Captain Bourne will be calling upon all Teamsters to assist in this important effort by signing an on line letter and placing calls to the offices to urge Congressional leaders to support this amendment.

A Teamster consultant, Jack Albertine, has been visiting politicians on the hill for the past two weeks in order to build support. Bob Fisher from United IAD has also attended some of these important meetings. Our aircraft mechanics from California and Massachusetts have been focusing a call in and letter writing campaign on Speaker Pelosi, Senator Boxer and Senator Kennedy. Without the green light from these distinguished politicians our moratorium amendment will not see the light of day.

[IslamoradaFlyer]

It would certainly appear that one of the previous writers (John Galt) comments indicate a total lack of knowledge of the IBT process. Negotiations are done by the local, not the International, headed by Captain Bourne. Hence it would be Local 1224, headed by Joe Muckle, with assistance from his legal staff and the currently appointed Atlas representative who is in place until the membership elects their leadership.

That said, it would also appear that the writer has not availed himself of the information sent to crewmembers this week, in which Bourne and others met with the management of the airline and are working on options.

Anyone familiar with the Atlas CBA would know that the AABO situation has been a thorn for years and worked on by Bourne and his people to no avail because the AABO crewmembers are not covered by the RLA and are foreign contractors to Atlas. Consequently, there is little leverage to force the issue other than what was later agreed to; that no additonal hiring could occur at AABO or any other company the company envisioned offshore unless they were on the Atlas seniority list (read: junior)

It can be easily assumed that the management would have been willing to work a deal to let them go as their individual contracts expired. But given the extensive delays in the merger created by the other pilot group, the AABO people have stayed longer. Had a combined CBA been executed 2 years ago, the AABO types would likely have been gone by now. But given the cost and penalties imposed in the UK when those types of contracts are cancelled early, it's clear management decided to wait.

The real question is this: Will the Polar crewmembers have the courage of their convictions and refuse to join IBT and pay dues or will they stand up and refuse as a group?

What say they?

[Beaver_Driver]

All very true. 44 AABO people left and not one of them senior to the most junior downgraded Captains recently announced by Atlas. Which makes them junior to most of the Polar crew. The boyz have all been told for years that it was time for them to campaign to get on the Atlas roster in seniority order. Now it may be too late.

[BELOWMINS]

Beav
The guys at Atlas are finding out tht the "no bump, no flush" they were so happy about is a double edged sword. It cuts both ways

[Beaver_Driver]

I doubt anyone was happy about any part of the Harris award. The no bump no flush was the section that Hair was so upset about. I wonder if he feels the same way now? The real point of this thread though is how the Polar guys feel about having 44 with super-seniority.

[L-38]

A few years ago, it became obvious that AABO was created to be a pass for an end run touch down play by AAWW management. Why the surprise now?

[Icarus2008]

Go back in history and pull out the books from year 2000/2001 where Mike Citrano, Grant Kashishke, John Kunkell and Mike Bryant designed this monster of AABO/ATLAS. Some of them, still here, and craving more medals to be famous in the hall of fame, they all worked for their masters.

It is upon us to seal this page and put an end to this travesty. An Obama nation can only be successful responding maybe after their 8 year reign ends, as this is not political, is about Capitalism, a society permissive of this acts, in essence to protect the companies, and the thieves, not the slaves. "Controversy of Zion"!

Charity starts at home, neither Captain Bourne as he call himself, nor Joe Muckle can bring any hope, it is incumbent on every pilot left here to bring this joint venture to an end. Citicorp succeeded and yet others may have to follow up, and make no mistake, management at Atlas will look at the most profitable angle of this crisis.:eek:

[layinlow]

It seems that beaver driver and icarus are under the impression that a colored president and socialist congress will thwart the musings and downright dishonesty of AAWH/AABO. They won't. All politicians think alike with total disdain for the citizenry. Just when they (the union) think they won, the company will fold and voila, a new one will be on the horizon. I have learned over the years that unions tend to think in 5 year terms, companies think in 30 year terms, therefore the company will always win.
After ALPA and the rumblings from the IBT, with no input from the aggrieved over our already won arbitration, I have little faith that anyone will ever win anything against the slugs at AAWH. It is tough to win when the opponent has no morals.
Pessimistic? Yeah. Hope that I am wrong? Yeah. But what I am seeing there no other outcome at this time.

[flite idol]

Sorry.....what is a "colored" president?:=

[Intruder]

In some places, it would be a president of mixed race -- another term for "mulatto."

[OBA]

Anyone know if Atlas let go crews based at Stansted UK?

If so when and how many?

Just interested as I used to have a friend worked their and I am trying to get in touch with no luck.

Anyone got a contact number or email for Atlas at STN?

[Beaver_Driver]

It seems that beaver driver and icarus are under the impression that a colored president and socialist congress will thwart the musings and downright dishonesty of AAWH/AABO. They won't. All politicians think alike with total disdain for the citizenry. Just when they (the union) think they won, the company will fold and voila, a new one will be on the horizon. I have learned over the years that unions tend to think in 5 year terms, companies think in 30 year terms, therefore the company will always win.
After ALPA and the rumblings from the IBT, with no input from the aggrieved over our already won arbitration, I have little faith that anyone will ever win anything against the slugs at AAWH. It is tough to win when the opponent has no morals.
Pessimistic? Yeah. Hope that I am wrong? Yeah. But what I am seeing there no other outcome at this time.Bill - just to be clear. I am probably a whole lot more conservative than you. And I didn't say colored (I dare you to go out on the streets of Memphis and say that) I said "democratic" congress and president, who are a whole lot more interested in listening to the unions than republicans.

And still we don't know why you care. You have a better job than you would at Atlas. I guess it is just your nature to keep the beans on the bottom from burning.

[jocko2000]

Wow, now your blaming Polar crews for the AABO situation. The spin just keeps going, grow up :ok:

[Beaver_Driver]

Huh? How did you get that from the posts above?

[742]

Just been reading Atlas/Alpa LOA STN vacancies,and I am gobsmacked,how could the Atlas MEC sign away seniority to the AABO contractors, now of course, they want to reneg on it,but why was it signed in the first place.


The AACS operation was started by management when the union was just getting organized. What you see now was the best that could be negotiated after the fact. You should have seen the original deal.

Nothing against the eurotrash contractors

That term is way out of line. In my experience these are good people in the middle of an organization and situation not of their making. And I am sure that the AACS/AABO guys have their own list of issues with past Atlas managements.

[fr8puppy]

Bourne probably got compensated well for that one!

[nitty-gritty]

Judging from multiple posts and only a thimble full of knowledge in them (mostly wrong) the old misinformation machine has starting up again.

AACS (now AABO) was formed to circumvent European wet leasing laws and as a ready cadre of replacement pilots for the newly formed Atlas union beginning negotiations if they went on strike. British Authorities said BS to the wet leasing circumvention in Europe so that killed one side of that which initiated the new airline GSS (global supply systems).

Atlas kept growing the AACS group and started furloughing mainline Atlas crews later to increase negotiation leverage against the union and group. Their was no status quo since this was a first contract (no title 6 protections) and the Railway Labor Act only works with us based crews so we could not look to any federal help (yet again) to stop the lorenzo tactics. The STN letter of agreement was negotiated originally under the Amussin MEC to try and slow the mainline job losses. It later became part of the final contract as a LOA also under the Bourne MEC which followed the Amussin MEC which could not get their version of the contract passed under membership ratification. Under the Bourne MEC, they were able to get it negotiated were anyone hired had to be on the Atlas ALPA seniority list at any new offshore base that was created by the company and any subsequent hiring at STN halting that particular tactic from repeating by the company. That unfortunately did not include the currently employed AACS/AABO guys already hired. Those guys got their reward of STN super seniority. They were about 170 at the time and are now around 40-50.

During that same time, the company did not let up on the pressure on the Atlas crews and association during negotiations. The company had bought a nearly defunct airline in which they moved about five Atlas aircraft and associated flying contracts over to (PAC), furloughing more Atlas crewmembers while hiring off the street at the newly aquired carrier. More Atlas guys on the street. Later proved out financially that it was another negotiation tactic in the later bankruptcy court discovery a few years later.

So your facts are wrong. Judging from who was giving it out on one side, I'm not surprised. Luckily he is not a factor in the combined group anymore other than being source of discontent.

[Dengue_Dude]

Quote: 'I guess it is just your nature to keep the beans on the bottom from burning.'

What a great phrase - thanks for that !

[rob rilly]

Low & Gritty could have got McCain elected with their Spin ! Too funny !

Bill(Low) we never knew you were such a Racist ! I copied FedEx your post....

[IslamoradaFlyer]

Polax52 and fr8puppy remind me of people who buy things on sale because the flyer in the carpark says "Sale! Huge Discounts!!"

A review of the facts; which appear inconsequential as they only cloud your alternative reality clearly indicate you that Mr. Nitty's comments are indeed factual. The agreement was originally signed by the previous MEC Chairman and put out as a part of the first agreement which failed. The second attempt, under Bourne's tenure also contained the document and was unchanged because the NMB would not allow the Atlas group to change that part of the agreement. What did change, and is part of the factual record, was the Polar MEC Chairman Fell's notification that he intended to have his crews operate Atlas aircraft should Atlas strike. Again, record admitted to by Mr. Fell that we in the public domain shake our heads at. Such honourable men he commanded.

Ah yes and Mr. Rilly has returned to your fold from his lofty perch at FedEx to contribute his bile. Proving yet again that the smartest swimmer does not always get to the egg first.

I'll ask the question again that none have answered. You appear supremely confident of your legal outcomes. Bearing that in mind, do the Polar crewmembers have the collective courage of conviction to refuse to join their new union? Shall you sue your management, or will you be meek and accept what now appears to be the inevitable merger of your two groups to save your arse's and jobs?

[layinlow]

Rob old buddy, I am not a racist:=. My pick would have been Condi or Michael Steele (my write in):D. Now talk about socialist leaning administrations and then we might have a something to talk about.
The bottom line is that a company will always win the war. The battles are only won when the company lets you win. Example, how many contract violations has AAWH done to your group? What did you actually get done. From what I have read they are still doing it. They did plenty to ours, scope be damned. That is the point and contributers to this post who think just because there is a new regime in that cesspool we call Washington DC will change things is delusional. The companies control the pocketbook ergo, they win.
C.T.

[Best Angle]

Nitty... You keep saying they moved contracts to Polar. Which ones? You like to keep stating this, but never answer with any facts. The only ACMI contract I ever remember was LH, but that was before AAWH came along.

Granted, they did move some Atlas birds over to Polar, but they did this to replace the Pratt powered ones that they parked. We used them to fly POLAR stuff. I am sure AAWH also did it to pressure your group. But we did not take over any ACMI flying.

[IslamoradaFlyer]

I believe what Mr. Nitty refers to is that back in 2002, Atlas approached a couple of operators here and asked them to crew and operate the aircraft to reduce the U.S. pilots. When they found no one to help with the scheme, they moved aircraft to the Polar subsidiary and hired a number of Tower crews for those aircraft.

It appears based on public documents, that their union knew all along that the aircraft in qustion were dry leased and could be returned at any time, minus crews and that those jobs would not be part of the merged carrier. They apparently never conveyed to the individuals that they would not have job rights with the merged carrier.

[nitty-gritty]

It seems to me that one group here rarely lets facts get in the way of what they want to believe vs what is the truth. I think I have regularly provided documentation when others only provided their opinion.

I believe it was LH, AMC and those S.A. routes Atlas had that were quickly moved over to Polar to make a negotiation point to the Atlas membership at the time. Furloughing at Atlas after moving the A/C and flights to Polar and hiring off the street. Mostly Tower guys as IslamoradaFlyer stated.

It was also well known that Polar was going to be pretty small in the eyes of AAWW. Around 6 A/C in the end. That point was made numerous times to the Polar MEC before the A/C and flights were moved. That MEC chose to keep that to themselves while telling the membership that they own everything. Those jobs were short term to begin with and a short windfall for the Polar group choosing to ignore the facts behind it or just misinformed by their MEC. Maybe just a hope that your scope would retain that acquired flying and A/C at Polar.

Here is one document from your contract administrator at the time wrote to the Polar MEC at that time over some of the issue of Polar's expected ultimate size (IN PDF (http://atlasmergerfacts.com/docs/PACMEC.pdf)). Seems to have played out accurately somewhat considering it was made in 2001.

[Best Angle]

Quote:
"I believe it was LH, AMC and those S.A. routes Atlas had that were quickly moved over to Polar"

Nitty - Your beliefs are all incorrect.

LH - Looked back in my logbook. Polar was operating LH ACMI with PRATT powered classics before anything to do with AAWH.

AMC - Atlas never operated AMC due to foreign ownership until after Michael Chowdry's death. Polar was operating AMC long before Atlas thought of it. In fact, the shifting has been the other way around. Cato and company shifted almost all of Polar's AMC award to Atlas until Evergreen blew the whistle. Polar then has flown it's contractual 10%. The Atlas classics have had an AMC gold mine due to this shift.

S.A. - We have been over this before. Both Polar and Atlas had SA authorities. The DOT forced AAWH to give up one of them. Cato, of course, dropped Polar's. The SA customers became unhappy with Atlas' service and continued screw ups, and demanded that Polar operate this route, which we did until DHL. This fliying was not "shifted" either.

[JohnGalt]

Nitty-----thank you for bringing this document to the forum. I think that it will enlighten all outside viewers as to what started the ongoing “Hatfield and McCoy” feud between Polar and Atlas crewmembers continues to this day.

It shows the root cause (starting in Dec 2001) of all the discord between Polar and Atlas crewmembers that has prevailed over the past 7-8 years. It provides an explanation as to why the Polar MEC took the course of action he did at that time to protect the QOL issues and RLA provisions that the Polaroids had already won in their existing contract.

Here are a few excerpts from the Dec 2001 document that you posted from Polar’s attorney to Polar’s MEC concerning merger protocol negotiations between Polar and Atlas:

[Ref: 4 Dec 2001 Letter from ALPA PAC 23 Attorney to Polar MEC]

“……Atlas Air has also suggested that the Polar Crewmembers agree to be covered by the new Atlas Air Agreement if, and when, there is a complete operational merger.

To that end, Atlas Air is inviting the Polar MEC to attend the final bargaining sessions with the Atlas MEC/Negotiating Committee for the purpose of monitoring the conclusion of the negotiations.

Although the Polar MEC would not be an official party to these negotiations, the Atlas Air negotiators would consider proposed changes to previously tentatively agreed to provisions in the Atlas Air Agreement.

Some of the issues that would be the focus of such discussions are maximum days of work for the month, reserve duty and number of days of extended duty.

The Atlas Air negotiators have given no assurances that they will modify any tentatively agreed to work rules in the Atlas Air Agreement…..” [Polar Quality of Life Issues already addressed and won in their contract].

Now comes the beauty of the proposed Atlas Air Negotiators’ protocol procedures----

“….In addition to the option of permitting Polar Air to engage in Section 6 negotiations with the Polar Air Crewmembers when the Polar Air Agreement becomes amendable, Atlas Holdings has the option of merging the two groups before these negotiations get started.

The Atlas Air negotiators have said that Atlas Holdings would invoke certain provisions of the Polar Air Scope provisions (such as the LPP provisions) to attempt to ensure that the Atlas Air Agreement would apply to the consolidated group.

If successful in this approach, the parties to the Polar Air Agreement may be removed from the jurisdiction of the NMB and, thus, denied the opportunity for permissible self-help under the Railway Labor Act.

Instead, the resulting combined Collective Bargaining Agreement would be determined through tri-party negotiations and/or binding arbitration….”

Can you imagine? Who in their right mind would agree to these protocols? Give up rights so hard won?

Remember, Atlas crewmembers had no contract and were still basically “at will” employees. Polar had a contract with solid scope and QOL provisions. To be asked by Atlas Air negotiators and Atlas Air mgt to rely on their best efforts to incorporate Polar scope/QOL issues----to be told you, Polar, will only monitor, and that if, we, Atlas negotiators and Atlas mgt, cannot agree, then you, Polar will agree that some 3rd party or arbitrator will decide what your QOL/work rules will be.

Obviously, the Polar MEC "puked," negotiation/merger talks failed, eventually leading to a Polar strike in 2005, which further inflamed Polar/Atlas crewmember relations, hence, 7-8 years of continual bickering and finger pointing between the two groups.

Again, Nitty, thank you for posting this letter.

[WhaleFR8]

AMC - Atlas never operated AMC due to foreign ownership until after Michael Chowdry's death. Polar was operating AMC long before Atlas thought of it. In fact, the shifting has been the other way around. Cato and company shifted almost all of Polar's AMC award to Atlas until Evergreen blew the whistle. Polar then has flown it's contractual 10%. The Atlas classics have had an AMC gold mine due to this shift.Pure bovine scat! Atlas was operating AMC and had been almost as long as Polar. Foreign ownership??? What the heck are you talking about? Time for another history lesson?

S.A. - We have been over this before. Both Polar and Atlas had SA authorities. The DOT forced AAWH to give up one of them. Cato, of course, dropped Polar's. Polar had 4 slots. Atlas had 10. Now which ones would you give up? And by the way they were ALL scheduled service - so before you say Atlas never had scheduled service, you better review your history.

The SA customers became unhappy with Atlas' service and continued screw ups, and demanded that Polar operate this route, which we did until DHL. This fliying was not "shifted" either. BS once again. You have no clue what you are talking about. Atlas has been operating in SA as long as Polar with just as good or even better on time record. Perhaps you have proof. I doubt it. Typical.

[Best Angle]

Whale -
Thanks for the response and confirming my assertions that no flying was "shifted". Are you stating that Chowdry was a US citizen?

Nitty - Also thanks for the publishing the letter. Everything that Bobb Henderson has always said suddenly becomes true in one document. As John has skillfully illustrated, AAWH's and Atlas Air's intentions and actions toward Polar were neither honorable nor professional.

Also note that the "merger" was always refered to as a "Complete Operational Merger". This was plan "B". It protected the Polar route structure by merging both carriers onto the Polar certificate. Most Polar crews had no problem with this plan to combine all operations. (Plan "A" was, of course, to leave the carriers seperate for "synergy" and now the infamous plan "C" is the Cato dream of the crew leasing scam.)

[747newguy]

What does the citizenship of the CEO of a publically-traded US corporation have to do with CRAF?

[nitty-gritty]

Being a non citizen as a CEO has nothing to do with it, but they want you to believe it. We did try using the AABO Euro thing to slow management down when we were doing AMC, but we found out that didn't work according to the AMC regs. It takes only one US guy to sign for the signature service stuff. Nothing else prevents it. Good try guys. Didn't matter much since Polar got most of that flying along with the A/C transfers.

Contrary to some here, we were doing AMC and a large chunk went over to Polar with the shifted A/C from Atlas.

While my intent on publishing the old report from ALPA's Everet Barber to Bob Fell was to report to the masses here that Polar was never intended to be larger than about 6 A/C and 150 crewmembers. Instead it appears that the Polar group chooses to ignore that they were being used as leverage against the Atlas crews when they got those extra A/C and routes above that in the report for obvious negotiation reasons against the Atlas crews.

Never expected anything less from one group here judging from history. Where does Polar find themselves at now? Not to far off those originally proposed numbers in the letter. I do find it entertaining how a few have latched onto very conjectural thoughts to justifying their own purposes in the report despite how history has played itself out to the present.

[BELOWMINS]

That which agrees with Nitty's outlook is fact, all else is conjecture.

[BELOWMINS]

"I believe what Mr. Nitty refers to is that back in 2002, Atlas approached a couple of operators here and asked them to crew and operate the aircraft to reduce the U.S. pilots. When they found no one to help with the scheme, they moved aircraft to the Polar subsidiary and hired a number of Tower crews for those aircraft. "

Islamorada
A check of the DOH on the Polar seniority list, along with a knowledge of the indiviiduals reveals no personnel from Tower Air were hired after early 2001.

[L-38]

A check of . . . indiviiduals reveals no personnel from Tower Air were hired after early 2001.
Maybe not after early 2001, but definitley during early 2001 - I was a Polar upgrade in January 2001, mixed in with a large new hire ground school (at LGB, then sim in DEN where some of us had witnessed the distant smoke of Chowdry's crash). That class (first of three) had largely consisted of many of my old friends from Tower (a year later during during July of 2002, my old Emery refugee friends came over).

Nitty's document confirms (for me) discussion that I had in August of 2001 with Polar's then Director of Training, warning me to get over to the -400 quickly, as he had some knowledge that Polar was soon to be drastically downsized (to be expected on/about January 2002). The only un-forecasted complication for that prediction, was the upcoming 2002 AMC lift escalation for Gulf War II.

[nitty-gritty]

Onto something more useful and constructive for the present collective group since a number of us already know the history.

Looks like they are moving to a more secure Atlas/Polar log on site for union business now instead of using the open http://www.atlasforteamsters.com site.

They are moving to the Local 1224 servers soon it looks like. Might be worth getting your particulars in for contact. You know, mailings and such. They have a link to them at http://www.atlasforteamsters.com.

[Best Angle]

Huh?
What does the citizenship of the CEO of a publically-traded US corporation have to do with CRAF?

Nothing.

Never said anything about the CEO. It is all about the citizenship of the major stockholder.

It is amazing how you guys modify the statement so that your response is correct.

[WhaleFR8]

It is all about the citizenship of the major stockholder.

And that would be????

[747newguy]

"AMC - Atlas never operated AMC due to foreign ownership until after Michael Chowdry's death."

If you "Google" CRAF you will find a link to a DOD article dated Jan 2000 listing Atlas as a member of CRAF--Chowdrey died in 2001.

[nitty-gritty]

Huh?
What does the citizenship of the CEO of a publically-traded US corporation have to do with CRAF? Nothing.

Never said anything about the CEO. It is all about the citizenship of the major stockholder.

It is amazing how you guys modify the statement so that your response is correct.

I believe Chowdry was a citizen. While not born in the U.S. he gained it later. Mentioned in a few biographies on him online and in print.

Now, who was the major stockholder of Atlas that was a non citizen? If there was, I don't think Atlas could even hold a US air carrier certificate let alone worry about what your inferring. It requires a 51% U.S. ownership just to hold a U.S. air carrier certificate by law.

I covered the AMC part in the earlier post. It only requires one U.S. citizen for signature service. We already fought that battle and found out we were left in the cold.

It would be nice if one contingent would start working with the collective union instead of continuing to believe in the incorrect and self serving oratories of past leadership.

[L-38]

With regards to AMC, I had thought that a minimum of 5 years operating experience of specific type aircraft was also required. That requirement would have qualified Atlas at /about 1998.

[WhaleFR8]

Depends on which part of AMC flying you are talking about. There are regulations from the CARB for AMC passenger carrying flights. Not sure what they are for pure cargo. When I worked pt 135 and AMC needed cargo hauled, they just called us. When it was for AMC or Government passengers they had a list of CARB qualified carriers they had to stick with.

[Intruder]

With regards to AMC, I had thought that a minimum of 5 years operating experience of specific type aircraft was also required. That requirement would have qualified Atlas at /about 1998.
If that is true, then since Polar and Atlas were founded about the same time, the rule (and the AMC start) would have been the same for both, then...

[L-38]

WhaleFr8 is probably right - different rules for pax and cargo. I recall flying Polar AMC before 1998, and pax AMC long before that with a different outfit. Maybe Atlas AMC was there, however don't recall seeing or competing with them prior to 9/11, however.

[DMahon]

Michael A. Chowdry (1955-2001) was a Pakistani American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_American) businessman who became the founder of American-based cargo carrier Atlas Air (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Air) in 1992. He made the Forbes 400 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_400) list and with a net worth of $920 million, ranked among the richest American businessmen of Pakistani heritage before his death in a plane crash in 2001.

I knew he was a citizen, just wanted to find reference material.

[L-38]

A shrinking company dealing with a shrinking world economy. Asian lift is saturated, and AAWW capital stock is tanking again. The -800 delivery's are also delayed (probably a good thing). No Gov/ AMC rescue in sight (as with a breif bleak market just prior to 9/11 when cargo B-747's were parked everywhere at JFK).
What are the bare bones of this company?

[dumbdumb]

L-38 --

It's not saturation anymore. World cargo traffic down over 20% in December 2008 vs. 2007. Forecast for 2009 is yet another 6% decrease for the year. JAL reducing flights ( I think two per week) out of LAX.

Bottom line nobody is buying and nobody is shipping. Aircargoworld.com has the exact numbers if you subscribe.

On a side note, what did ground ops do and where were they located? I take it Purchase?

[v1andgo]

Musical Chairs Over Pacific
Oz Starts As Kiwi Stops
For a sector that long seemed a haven of stability and strong yields, the US-Australia/New Zealand market is uncharacteristically lively at the moment.
On the heels of one freighter operator joining the game, one of the incumbents is scrapping its freighter lease, only for another player to field a freighter on the suspended route.
Air New Zealand is going to return a B747-400F aircraft leased from Atlas Air, a step that marks the end of the airline's round-the-world freighter operation from its home base via Europe to the U.S. and back to New Zealand. This eliminates two B747-400F flights a week from the U.S. to the South Pacific.
According to some observers, the carrier had tried unsuccessfully to obtain more advantageous leasing rates in light of a weakening market and decided to pull the plug on the operation when Atlas stood firm. Air New Zealand confirmed that the lease would be terminated at the end of March, leading to the suspension of the transpacific freighter service, but declined to discuss any details. It indicated that management is looking for alternative options for a U.S.-New Zealand freighter.
The gap left by the Kiwi carrier's withdrawal will be short-lived. "We are about to commence a twice weekly B747-400F freighter service between the U.S. and New Zealand. This new service will provide mid-week and weekend capacity from the U.S. to New Zealand and from New Zealand into Australia," announced Stephen Cleary, group general manager of Qantas Freight.
So far, Qantas has supplemented its 43 weekly passenger flights between the U.S. and its home market with three weekly 747 freighters to Sydney and one to Melbourne. Those freighters reach the U.S. market via Shanghai, where Qantas has built up a hub operation for both passenger and cargo flights. On the transpacific sector the airline's bellyhold capacity changed slightly in the fourth quarter, when it introduced A380 aircraft.
Air New Zealand's decision to suspend the U.S.-New Zealand freighter run reflects the recent deterioration of the U.S.-South Pacific market, which had long seemed impervious to chronic weakness of U.S. exports.

[IslamoradaFlyer]

It appears that the management of Atlas has made a business decision to operate aircraft at a profit and not to cut a contract to the bone just to ensure an airplane flies. While that may seem odd at first blush; it is clear that should they have renegotiated at a lower rate, every other Atlas customer would have demanded the same. You simply cannot operate a business and charge less for a service than it costs to provide.

No doubt other operators will be jumping at the chance to fly cheap and hope to make it up with the profits or cash flow from other customers. Soon more will follow suit and eventually they will all end up cutting wages and benefits. Job losses will follow. We've seen this model repeat itself since the Deregulation Act of 1978, when the government refused to keep up the oversight required.

Atlas' most important move may well have been going outside the revolving door of airline management to find someone who is not steeped in the old airline operations theories.

[flite idol]

Well Atlas Operate for Qantas on routes that compete with ANZ. They could not give ANZ a commercial advantage over the larger customer, QF.

[dumbdumb]

Regarding Air New Zealand . . . you better keep an eye on Titan Leasing. Seems as though you could get more bang for your buck as AAWW to lease a plane and let them deal with everything else. PLEASE stand strong on scope dealing with the negotiations . . . we need to stand strong on scope. Just in case you didn't get it stand strong on scope.

Remember the old saying of keep your friends close and your enemies closer!

[layinlow]

You need to look no further than Polar than to see what this company thinks of scope. The FE's won the arbitration, now the company want to arbitrate the arbitration. Bottom line, there is no scope strong enough when the company is as dishonest as AAWWH

[nitty-gritty]

You might want to correct that to "CBA strong enough" vs "scope strong enough". We on the labor side have always had an uphill battle with federal labor laws and companies complying with collective bargaining agreements made under them. Polar is no exception to it.

Written Law has always favored management in the past leaving little for labor. Arbitration just adds one more layer to the smoke an mirrors.

[layinlow]

I absolutely agree with you nitty, but evidently this scope was strong enough to win the arbitration. AAWWH just doesn't want to abide by it. How the IBT is going to handle it is another question for another day but it doesn't look good.

[L-38]

. . . but evidently this scope was strong enough to win the arbitration
If referring to Arbitrator Bloch's 11/08 decision, it was actually won on black and white CBA language (furlough out of seniority). This verbage clearly could not be interpreted in any other way. The FE's award was not given for violating scope. Regardless, the company is coming up way short on Bloch's carelessly worded but intended remedy, so we must again wrestle some more with AAWW management.

[WhaleDriver]

L-38 is correct. The scope part of the arbitration was found in AAWH's favor. The IBT is considering taking this Bloc finding to another arbitrator to get a solution. This would only be to solve how the FE's are to be made whole.

[WhaleFR8]

I guess I don't understand. If the company (Polar) has nothing that you could fly as a PFE (ie. no Classics) but you are senior to pilots who are needed to fly the -400, what do you expect the company to do?

[WhaleDriver]

They (Polar) signed the contract knowing this. They can try to buy the FE's out with a severance package, offer those interested some training, or just keep paying them to sit at home. Another option, furlough everyone, pilots included, then recall only those qualified. That would lead to a grounding of the fleet for at least two weeks.

[L-38]

I don't understand. If the company (Polar) has nothing that you could fly as a PFE
That's the rub. Polar management agreed to this by signing it, and AAWW thus inherited it.

Actually, back in 1998 when Polar's CBA was authored, Polar's FE's and pilots were put on the same seniority list for reasons of job protection. In those days, everyone knew that the expensive -400's were coming, however they were considered to be at least 10 years out for Polar's use.

Also at that time, ICAO standards had not been established for "cruise pilots" on the ultra long range -400. Some airlines (Lufty and Qantas included) re-assigned their FE's as cruise pilots to save their jobs. This was the intention of Polar's labor, however today, ICAO cruise pilot standards have been established and the FE's as cruise pilot concept is now obsolete.

Polar, when they received their first -400 much earlier than forecasted, had this option but did not run with it. It was also very ironic at the time that after crying poor for months, management reversed, and orderd their first -400. All within a few weeks of it's contested first CBA becoming ratified.

Poor Jim Cato and company. They overlooked and/or did not realize the implication's of Polar's little CBA clause. They were by then stuck with it . . . oh well.

[WhaleFR8]

So do you honestly think that PFEs could possibly just be "qualified" to be a cruise pilot?

Seems to me that if a PFE wanted to protect his job he would go out and get a rating (which I am sure many of them did - many at Atlas certainly did) and then actually fly an airplane - not a pen - to get the 1000 or 1500 hours required for an ATP. I wonder how many PFEs, high on the seniority list, simply sat back and waited, putting their faith in a scope clause that no arbitrator in the land would honor if there were no airplanes for the PFEs to fly.

Even to fly as a cruise captain (assuming the insurance companies and the FAA would buy off on the program) you need a commercial license as well as an instrument and multiengine rating. Did the PFEs that were not rated expect the company to pay for that also?

Most rated pilots either gave up their lives for 12 years to get military training or they paid tens of thousands of dollars for the training and then gave up their lives to crappy little commuters or air taxi flying to gain the experience needed to get a job at Polar or Atlas.

Granted the PFEs gained their FE experience through much the same amount of hard knocks - but now they expect to lateral over to a much different path with no experience or training? Flying a multi million dollar asset through thunderstorms, CAT, with company managers watching fuel burns to the teaspoon, and crappy HF comms with foreign controllers who are at best garbled and stupid?
Seems like a chance for another "San Bruno Mountain" and that guy was a rated pilot.

[L-38]

A lot of verbiage there, WhaleFr8.

Truth be known, Polar's then chief pilot even turned away a high senority FE guy that had a B-737 type rating (his reasoning was that this FE was a little rusty)! Another high senority FE that was accepted to the -400 program (but later suddenly dismissed) had flown as a qualified Polar classic FO just a few years earlier.

I believe that it became political, as the choice on which of the qualified FE's to send to the -400 was actually made by a committee of one. . . (Note - The then chief pilot was even heard to exclaim "think of all of the current -400 FO's those senior FE guys will displace"!).

Again FR8, - The basic reasoning of 1998, was that the FE's had about 10 years to aquire basic certificates, and thus Polar's CBA clause was intended to save jobs. . . . . BUT - With the more recently established ICAO standards, the "FE as cruise pilot" concept has now become obsolete. . . Do not deny that this concept was at one time used by the world's most major airlines during that time of transition years ago.

[WhaleFR8]

The "FE as cruise pilot" concept is now obsolete. . . but it was at one time used by the world's most major airlines during that time of transition years ago.
I have been around this gig for more than a few years. And I was a PFE "years ago." Other than the very limited case at QF, I have never heard of this. Most of the major airlines have used second officers since ALPA tried to force the third pilot issue during the time of transition you are talking about which came as the 737 entered service; so I am not sure what PFE-as-a-cruise-pilot concept you are talking about.

There are some highly qualified FEs who for one political reason or another are on the PFE track. There is no doubt that they can do the job; and many have. But by and large, they realized that they were the ones who needed to get off their duff and get their ratings. They did so and bid into the front seat. Human nature being what it is, there are some who just sat there, feeling like the company owed them something just because of a few words on a piece of paper. At this stage of the game, with a few exceptions, those who are left are generally thought to be in the latter category.

Enter the Atlas purchase of Polar and some creative asset transferring to cloud the picture and "shazbat" they get an arbitrator to buy off on their scope clause and the "awww poor me" game.

The PFEs knew this was coming years ago. They could have gotten their ratings and been ready. Instead they want the company to pay them to sit? Or they want to impact a whole bunch of pilots, even for two weeks, while the company fires and re-hires to adjust the seniority list. Or they want the company to pay for the training they should have gotten for themselves?

I guess it is much easier to sit back and blame the Atlas pilots or the company for all their troubles. But that's human nature I suppose.

[L-38]

OK WhaleFR8 - You have now been armed with the facts. . . So what would you do now?

Just take out your trusty eraser and erase the legal, agreed on, and accepted part of this aged, lawful, legitimate, and binding document simply because you don't like it?

[WhaleFR8]

ahahahahahaha "armed with the facts" just because you said it? ahahahahahaha

[L-38]

What part do you dispute? What are your facts to present? I doubt that you were at Polar then.

Anyway, this pointless diatribe with you has become silly.

L-38 out

[BELOWMINS]

Whalefr8
A "few words on a piece of paper" result in you getting a paycheck on a regular basis. Can we void those few words or are only the words that service your needs applicable.

[WhaleFR8]

What part do you dispute? The part where you provide zero documentation.

A "few words on a piece of paper" result in you getting a paycheck on a regular basis. Can we void those few words or are only the words that service your needs applicable. Nope, but neither do I trust my entire livelihood to them. Instead many of us spent the time and effort to go out and get our ratings, on our time and dime, gained the experience needed, and bid for the seat. How well is that ironclad scope clause serving the Polar FEs now? Is the hassle worth it? Wouldn't it have been better to do it the way many before you have done?

Look, as L38 said - the Polar PFEs have known for 10 years that this day was coming. Assuming that they have enough time as an FE to use the FAR allowed max of 500 hours towards their ATP, that is only 100 hours a year they would have needed to fly to gain the time needed. Take away their training time for Private, commercial, and Instrument and they really only needed to find time to fly about 60 hours a year or a bit over one hour a week to get that experience. I am sorry that they are in this situation but it didn't take a college edumacation to read the handwriting on this wall.

Why is it the company's fault? Or the Atlas Pilot's fault? Or even the junior Polar Pilots fault?

Just a little accountability would be great here - and yet some seem to think they are qualified to fly as a cruise captain?

I know I am generalizing, and I know there are a few special situations, but as Spock says "The good of the many outweighs the good of the one (or few)."

[BELOWMINS]

How well the ironclad scope clause is serving the Polar PFE's is yet to be determined. Is the hassle worth it compared to what..rolling over and playing dead. When your pushing sixty, or more, as many of the PFE's are, doing it the way so many have done it before isn't much of an option

[WhaleDriver]

Let's be clear, this has NOTHING to do with scope. It is part of the rules for your one list seniority.

[WhaleFR8]

Very true.

See Bill's post above - I know, I know, he no longer works for AAWH so he can't be held responsible.

You need to look no further than Polar than to see what this company thinks of scope. The FE's won the arbitration, now the company want to arbitrate the arbitration. Bottom line, there is no scope strong enough when the company is as dishonest as AAWWHBut the bottom line is Scope or seniority list, sitting back and trusting your future to a few words on a document in this day and age of crooked, tax evading, lawmakers and staffers; as well as predatory CEOs and VPs shows a cognitive unawareness that makes one wonder if you could really handle a cruise captain job.

Out of one side of their mouth the company tells us we are their most important asset. Out of the other they tell the media and the board of directors that we are their biggest liability.

One only has to look as far as the headlines to see how many are out of work these days. And yet some want to sit back and trust an, at best, poorly worded CBA; and a company not known for its care of workers, to retrain them, or pay them in perpetuity?

Come on - get a clue.

[L-38]

I think WFR8 would squeel just as loudly if he were sitting on the other side of the fence.

Anyway, IBT local 1224 should fight to make AAWW management uphold Bloch's award (make Polar FE's whole again) until Polar's CBA terminates.

This would be a win for all of IBT local 1224.

It would demonstrate the compulsorily-ness(sp?) of a CBA to management.
It would put financial pressure on management in pushing them to reach a new CBA agreement in a more timely manner. . . thus finally being rid of paying Polar's FE's.
It would help demonstrate to other's that as an aviation union, the IBT really does have teeth.

[WhaleFR8]

And still no documentation ...

But what does "made whole" mean. This sounds like the weasel words in the Atlas CBA? What exactly do the Polar FEs want?

Do you want to be paid to sit on your butt for life?
Do you want Atlas to spend 20-50K to get you all your licenses then allow you a couple of years sabbatical while you gain the flight time needed to move forward?
What is it that you want?

And I was on the other side of the fence but I saw the handwriting on the wall and spent the time and money to get my ratings. Took a few years off from FEing and worked for a Pt 135 company then another scum bag freighter outfit, then a regional and finally back to the cream of the crap freight flying. So I and many others did it and didn't spend 10 years sitting on our collective butts. I guess that is why I have no patience for this - at least it is not delaying our negotiations any more.

I think folks need to take a least a modicum of responsibility for their lives. It isn't like you didn't have any notice that the classics were going away. Everyone hoped that it wasn't going to happen on their watch - and I feel bad for those who tried to stick it out until they retired in this proud profession. But in fact, they guessed wrong and now they don't want to be held accountable for their poor guess. And they want others to pay for their choice; whether it be Atlas, Polar, Junior Polar pilots, Atlas Pilots - or the poor Captain that has to stay in the seat the whole time because he doesn't trust the minimal training that we all know Atlas would give to the PFE-Cruise Captains.

[L-38]

Bravo WFR8 . . . :D:D What is it that you want?

For management to honor, and abide by their agreement - The Polar CBA - retroactive, and for the duration of it's remaining life, pure, plain, and simple.

[WhaleFR8]

Not going to be possible with no airplanes to fly and PFEs unwilling or unable to man-up and get their ratings in time. Unless of course you want Atlas to fire all the pilots junior to the most senior FE just to get to him.

Section 22 A 2

In order to exercise seniority rights under this Agreement, a Crewmember must have sufficient qualifications, as established unilaterally by the Company and published and disseminated to the Crewmembers, for the applicable position, vacancy, assignment or operation. The Crewmember also must be available to assume the position, vacancy, assignment or operation within any applicable time limits in this Agreement, and, if none, within reasonable time limits established by the Company.Next choice.

And Section 23 A 1

A Pilot will be furloughed in reverse order of placement on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List, as determined by reference to all of the Company’s Captains and First Officers as a whole. A Flight Engineer will be furloughed in reverse order of placement on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List, as determined by reference to all of the Company’s Flight Engineers.

And Section 22 D

1. A Flight Engineer may bid for a vacant First Officer position under the circumstances specified in this Paragraph.

2. In order to be eligible to submit such a bid, the Flight Engineer must possess the minimum qualifications for the First Officer position, as established unilaterally by the Company and published and disseminated to the Crewmembers, and have successfully completed the simulator evaluation required by the Company of First Officer applicants.

3. It is the Flight Engineer’s sole responsibility to obtain the minimum qualifications for the First Officer position and to complete the required simulator evaluation. The Flight Engineer will not receive any compensation for time spent, or reimbursement of any expenses incurred, in obtaining such minimum qualifications or completing such simulator evaluation

Did I miss something? You want the company to honor the CBA but you don't have to?

[L-38]

Did I miss something?
Yes, WFR8 - Polar CBA section - 22.A.1

[BELOWMINS]

mmack
Interesting comment but could we try it again. This time in english.

[WhaleFR8]

Do you mean this?

Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, placement on the Polar Air Cargo Crewmembers System Seniority List shall govern all Crewmembers with respect to upgrade and downgrade, retention, furlough and recall in case of reduction in force, award of domicile vacancies and displacements from domiciles, and any other assignments or awards.

So "otherwise provided in this agreement" is just one paragraph down as well as 23 A 1 - correct?

You guys were sold a bill of goods by Dan Katz, who was the only person to really make out on this whole debacle. He tried to make this about scope and the Atlas flying while Polar Engineers were furloughed. Bloch turned it right back to the seniority issue, which is where it really belongs. Yet your CBA is pretty specific don't you think. PFEs furloughed shall be done in order with respect to all the other PFEs on the list. Your CBA gives the PFEs an opportunity to bid to FO once they get themselves qualified. The fact that many decided not to should not be a reason for a grievance.

[BELOWMINS]

WFR8
From the Bloch award.

"Management violated Section22.A.1 and related sections of the Labor Agreement by furloughing Flight Engineers while retaining junior pilots."


As far as the meaning of the legal term "make whole", Google 'arbitration award make whole" and you'll find enough documentation to keep your printer busy for a while.

[IslamoradaFlyer]

Having taken many days to peruse the transcripts of the seniority arbitration, it appears upon reading that while Mr. Katz in fact presented a very weak and ineffective case (as also noted in the manner in which he also represented the pilots of USAirways), it appears in both cases he also had direction from leadership that was less than stellar.

That he did not produce expert testimony on bankruptcy or other matters, relying on the Polar MEC Chairmans "expertise" which was quickly discounted as not founded in sound industry experience, but anecdotal backround, and that of Captain Hair, who also did not posess credentials of an expert witness, indicates either a lack of preparation or someone who was directed to take a specific position and damn the torpedo's.

If one was a Polar crewmember, it would beg the question as to what the funds collected for this case were spent upon? It's apparent that on the Atlas side, based upon the transcripts, that they spent money finding accredited experts with specific knowledge and the only defense mounted by Polar's attorney, Mr. Katz, was to attempt to professionally attack the Atlas experts witness.

Something that was equally fended off by the expert, and clearly seen by the arbitrator as a desparate attempt by Mr. Katz to make up for his obvious shortcomings.

[BELOWMINS]

Flyer
I would suggest you re read the position taken by both sides on remedy, then re read the actual award. Once that is complete, see which side came closer to the remedy requested.
There are no style points in an arbitration.

[Best Angle]

make one whole
v. to pay or award damages sufficient to put the party who was damaged back into the position he/she would have been in without the fault of another.

[BELOWMINS]

"The make whole remedy can be accomplished with reference to the economic aspects suffered by those individuals."

[EJetCA]

anyone else notice the huge TITAN logo in the middle of the letterhead on the last email from the company?

I did. Front and center

[EJetCA]

For emphasis:

Titan Aviation (http://www.titanaviationltd.com/)

[IslamoradaFlyer]

It's fairly clear to the even the novice reader. The Polar position insisted on the right of Polar crewmembers to take Atlas crewmembers seats in Atlas aircraft. Atlas argued that crewmembers who did not bring seats with them to the merged airline had no right to the seats of Atlas crewmembers in Atlas aircraft. Polars surplus of crews, brought about by the parking of their Classics, and the return of Classics that were owned by Atlas and dry leased to Polar, created a situation where pilots would eventually have a recall, but if Classics were parked, no PFE opportunities would exist for the furloughed PFE's.

The aribtrator integrated the list, yet maintained that no Polar crewmember had the right to Atlas seats in a manner that would "bump" an Atlas crewmember from his seat to the street.

Hence, Polar FE's have no right to displace an Atlas FE from his airplane or seat until new vacancies were created, post integration. (meaning the acquisition of new 3 man aircraft) Polar furloughed FO's and Captains have no right to displace an Atlas crewmember from their seat and are not eligible for recall at the merged carrier until there is growth in the fleet beyond the fleet size at the time of the merger.

It is clear that when the arbitrator "suggested" both parties rethink their original positions and come back with something else, Polar refused to move and Atlas responded, proposing other options. Arbitrators don't like people who are unwilling to seek to find common ground. Since it is their field on which everyone is playing, they get to set the rules.

As has been apparent in the course of events, it is apparent that ego overruled the responsibility of representation at Polar. The losers have been Polars crewmembers and their families at the hand of their elected leadership.

It appears now that someone more focused on representation is now at the helm for the Polar crewmembers. For their sake, it appears to be a good thing.

[Miami Freight]

Long live the IBT. Everything will be fine from now on.

[400drvr]

Actually what the Polar crew members would prefer is Polar airplanes with Polar crews.

[742]

Actually what the Polar crew members would prefer is Polar airplanes with Polar crews.


While I don’t speak for the Atlas crews, I am certain that they would also prefer to have watched Polar crews flying Polar airplanes -- from a distance. However reality is that Atlas bought Polar 8 years ago and the merger egg has been scrambled. And as far as flying “their” airplanes, over those 8 years it has been Atlas airplanes moved to Polar, not vice versa.

It is difficult to replay history with the pieces moved, but it is hard to imagine Polar surviving to this day as an independent operator. And the other paths speculated about in the crew rooms (purchase by UAL, UPS, etc.) would almost certainly have resulted in the Polar crews being on the street.

This all about internal union power struggles, enabled by some egotistical/inept past management personnel. Nothing more and nothing less.

[BELOWMINS]

AAWH bought Polar. Atlas wouldn't buy lunch.

[WhaleDriver]

You are correct, but where did you think AAWH got the $39 Mill in cash to buy Polar? AAWH by itself generates no income, its a consumer of income.

[WhaleFR8]

Atlas upstreamed the money to form AAWH specifically to buy Polar. Lest everyone forget, a certain amount of that money, had it not been used to form AAWH and buy Polar, would almost certainly have ended up in the Atlas Pilots profit sharing.

[BELOWMINS]

Why didn't they downstream some of the 154 million they made on the sale of 49% of Polar to DHL to the Atlas pilots profit sharing ?

[WhaleDriver]

Because, technically, Atlas Air was charged a $39 Mil dividend for services provided by AAWH. Not sure what those services were. So, AAWH does not owe Atlas Air anything.

[L-38]

Atlas upstreamed the money to form AAWH specifically to buy Polar. Lest everyone forget, a certain amount of that money, had it not been used to form AAWH and buy Polar, would almost certainly have ended up in the back pockets of ex Atlas CEO Richard H. Shuyler.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGklTTM5...asAirCmplt.pdf (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGklTTM5FJC6oA4X9XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZzBxOHAwBHNlYwNzc gRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA1FTU0hfMTIx/SIG=12catuh5a/EXP=1234339155/**http%3a//www.faruqilaw.com/complaints/36-AtlasAirCmplt.pdf)

[captseth]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but reflect on this, everyone:

If we don't hang together, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.

[Furloughed]

Too late ..

Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings trims fleet size



The Purchase, N.Y.-based company will cut its 747-200 fleet by seven and reduce crew force and ground staff. After the cut the company will operate seven 747-200 freighters and 22 747-400 freighters.

[dumbdumb]

Soooooo . . . does that include the six from Polar??? Hmmm . . . Titan leasing here we come!

[WhaleFR8]

six what from Polar?

[anothercargopilot]

Atlas classic fleet will go to 6 TOTAL if -512 goes to the desert on the 12th and -355 on the 19th.

Atlas -400 = 13
Polar -400 = 6
GSS -400 = 3
==============
Total -400 = 22

[layinlow]

It looks like it is going to be "How low can you go for a while". I hope everyone keeps their jobs during this round of downturns. The international air cargo was down 22+% from the last year. Domestic not much better. And it is not even close to being over yet.

[L-38]

we have work for 2-3 classics. . . . AMC is going 400

I suspect that this has more to do with the -400's requirement to find work in order to pay for their leases, rather than the -200's relative inefficiencies.

Years ago, when Polar was considering their first -400, it was analyzed that Polar would have to fly them 18 hrs a day to justify their extra capitol costs.

[Best Angle]

Quote:

"I believe it has more to do with 496 & 498 becoming available, ie no longer flying DHL..."

496 & 498 were flying Polar...

[WhaleFR8]

When AAWH made the deal with DHL, part of it was that DHL would have access to Atlas aircraft when they needed more lift. That is what 496 and 498 were doing. But in fact, it is all AAWH flying; each pilot group flys the contracts and the aircraft as designated by the managers of the company we work for.

[BELOWMINS]

WFR8
I thought Atlas was the company you work for. It certainly is the company with which you have a collective bargaining agreement.

[Intruder]

There are 2 "Atlas" companies:

Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings is the holding company that owns Atlas Air, Inc, and 51% (cough, cough) of Polar Air Cargo, and 49% (cough, cough) of Global Supply Services, and Titan Air Leasing, and a few other minor players. Lots of suits; not many (if any) knowledgeable pilots.

Atlas Air, Inc is the company that actually employs working pilots and flight engineers, and owns/controls AACS/AABO.

[WhaleDriver]

Now here is a question from me, just curious. If the 200 fleet were completely removed, would the F/E issue disappear?

It would for Atlas, but Polar FE's are still an issue. The only thing to solve the Polar FE issue would be a settlement or the merger.

[L-38]

That is correct - The Polar FE's are tied to Polar's CBA in a peculiar way. Polar's CBA provides for a single seniority list, where the more senior FE's hold CBA seniority authority over their more junior -400 FO's.

X Polar's CBA, and you automatically X Polar's FE's. . . .

This issue could be used as a tactical advantage for labor's IBT - Make the keeping of Polar's FE's expensive, and management will have a very large incentive to sooner replace Polar's old CBA with a newer combined one (so as to finally be rid of the Polar FE's).

[Best Angle]

Quote;
"Thought Polar flying is DHL flying unless I missed something I shouldn't have http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif"

496 & 498 were wet leased to Polar and operated as Polar flights with Polar call signs. If Atlas had contracted directly with DHL, those flights would have had Giant flight numbers.

[WhaleFR8]

WFR8 I thought Atlas was the company you work for. It certainly is the company with which you have a collective bargaining agreement. True. If you were a policeman in your city who would you work for? The City? or the Police department? The answer is, of course, the city. The city controls the number of cops, the number of cop cars, the local statutes, hires and fires the commissioner or chief. It is a silly argument really. We all work for AAWH and not one of us controls the placement of aircraft, who flys the aircraft, or what contract they fly on.

496 & 498 were wet leased to Polar and operated as Polar flights with Polar call signs. If Atlas had contracted directly with DHL, those flights would have had Giant flight numbers. Call sign has little to do with the leasing arrangements of the airplanes. Often times we use a GT call sign for an ACMI run. That is one reason ACMI is attractive to many of our customers. We can use the GT call sign when needed. Once again, part of the block space agreement was the DHL would have access to other AAWH lift if and when they needed it.

This issue could be used as a tactical advantage for labor's IBT - Make the keeping of Polar's FE's expensive, and management will have a very large incentive to sooner replace Polar's old CBA with a newer combined one (so as to finally be rid of the Polar FE's). Please. Do you really think there is a court in this land that will force a company, in this economy, to keep a group of people who have no qualification to fly any of the equipment?

[L-38]

Please. Do you really think there is a court in this land that will force a company, in this economy, to keep a group of people who have no qualification to fly any of the equipment?


Come to the party, Fr8. Once signed, a contract is binding no matter how mis-understood. Contractual language that break legal law's are perhaps the only exception, however I don't see that here.

Can you see it now? (AAWW management complaining to a judge about something that they didn't like after IBT's new CBA becomes effective) . . . .

"Wahhh, but we really didn't mean to sign it inclusive of THAT clause!".
or . . .
"Please help us your honor, what could we have possibly been thinking?"

[L-38]

Do you really think . . will force a company, in this economy, to keep . . .
A great opportunity to reduce some of those in the unemployment lines!

[WhaleFR8]

Yup I can see it now. I am sorry Mr PFE, but since you don't have a pilot rating, even though we gave you ten years notice to get one, you are not qualified to fly any equipment we have. So you can keep your job but you will have to move to White Plains, take a pay cut, and oh; we have some new equipment for you to operate. Are you qualified on the MKI br00m or the basic m0p? (note": not a comment on PFEs here - just a comment on the type of company we work for)

You are dreaming if you think any court, regardless of how the contract is written, is going to let you sit at home and draw pay until retirement age. You all had plenty of notice that the classics were going away and with a few exceptions you did nothing to qualify yourselves to continue with this company.

Course I never thought the obomonation could get elected either.

[point8six]

Your spelling of obomonation is an abomination in the Obamanation! -whatever.......

[IslamoradaFlyer]

CR2 (http://www.pprune.org/members/16266-cr2)

Top Dog Mod
Moderator

Join Date: May 2000
Location: New York
Age: 40
Posts: 1,849


Thought Polar flying is DHL flying unless I missed something I shouldn't have http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif

Now here is a question from me, just curious. If the 200 fleet were completely removed, would the F/E issue disappear?


Polar's FE's do not have rights to the seats on Atlas -200's under the arbitration award. This is simply because Polar is bringing no -200's (and their FE seats) to the merged carrier and the arbitrator held that as such, they can't take an Atlas FE's seat from his airplane.

This also holds for the furloughed -200 Captains and FO's. They are not bringing their seats to the merged carrier, and therefore have no claim to a seat held by an Atlas Captain or FO on an Atlas plane.

A number of the crewmembers in question were hired to plus up Polar when Atlas retailiated against the union and dry leased a number of Classic's to Polar. What is unfortunate is that the Polar leadership knew in late 2001 that when the airlines merged, only the -400's and an estimated 150 Polar crewmembers would integrate. Something not missed by the arbitrator.

While the crewmembers will have the right to recall; it won't be until there is relative growth...i.e., the fleet expands above a preset limit. Given the tradeoff's of a -200 for an -800, this could take quite a long time. And in all likelihood, since the demand for the demand for the Classic is in the dumpster and no new 3 man birds are coming off the assembly line, the odds of FE's returning are very poor.

Regarding the need to pay unqualified or untrained crewmembers ad infinitum...while the Polar scope says some things...and has many interpreters...it also clearly states that a company has the right to run it's business as it deems necessary.(paraphrased) No different than any other labor contract. In some it's called a "force mejeure."

No court in the land is going to force a company into financial straits over a labor contract. Period.

[layinlow]

They did it to the auto makers. But that is off point. The questions to ask is why did the classics go away? It was determined that the classics were no longer at Polar because the freight was being flown by Atlas. A violation of the CBA scope. That was the the reason the classics went away at least in the arbitration award..
I find myself in agreement that the FE's should have worked toward a commercial license, but that is not as easy as you might think. A few of the FEs took LOAs (the single ones) and worked on the 250 hrs needed, others started from scratch and they are working on the -400 today. But with wife, kids, and bills, a lot of the guys did not have the time nor money to go that route.
But, given that it still doesn't give the company to right to violate the scope. Even after the ruling the company still refuses to abide by the ruling. All have ID cards again and are on the CASS roster or at least soon to be, yet none are being paid although the company says they are active crew members and that means the 65 hour guarantee should apply.
While there are a lot of good points made on both sides here it still comes down to scope.

[BELOWMINS]

Fortunately in this country we have laws and are not governed by the logic of WFR8 and IFlyer. No judge will do this...no judge will say that. Lets ask a judge and find out.

[nitty-gritty]

Fortunately in this country we have laws and are not governed by the logic of WFR8 and IFlyer. No judge will do this...no judge will say that. Lets ask a judge and find out.Unfortunately, both CBA's have arbitration clauses in them. A judge would only defer back to arbitration after everyone spent the money going through the steps to get into court.

The best you will get is another arbiter or the same one addressing his past judgment. I think the arbiter in question even padded his pocket book by making the decision the way he did, knowing that further work would be needed on his judgment expanding his billable hours.

Arbiters know what side their bread is buttered on and why they generally don't make overly impairing rulings against a company.

[BELOWMINS]

Nitty
Again, nice logic but you haven't done your homework.

[L-38]

I agree with Nitty in that . . A judge would only defer back to arbitration after everyone spent the money going through the steps to get into court.

The best you will get is another arbiter or the same one addressing his past judgment

An arbitrator's ruling is seldom overturned, else the entire system of arbitration would fall apart thus further burdening the courts.

[L-38]

For info, management has now restored all Polar FE's with their full, valid company ID's and has also placed them back on a current seniority list (un-furloughed) for the duration of Polar's CBA.

As also as in 2006/07 with no airplanes to fly, and also with reference to Bloch's award almost identical to that of Holden's (the FE's shall be made whole), is history about to repeat itself?

[BELOWMINS]

L-38
Good to see someone who has done his homework.

[L-38]

..Thanks'.

[layinlow]

They may be furloughed and reinstated iaw the CBA but they sure are not being paid. What happened to the guarantee?

[L-38]

All just a matter of time.

[Fr8Dog]

Well for all you Polar guys that are not sharing in the furloughs with your Atlas brothers and sisters, you will probably be glad to hear that another 20 engineers and another 100 pilots will hit the street. Expect the announcement in the next couple of days.

[BELOWMINS]

Fr8Dog
Having spent two and a half years and two arbitrations, in a terminated, reinstated, furloughed, reinstated although unpaid status, the Polar PFE's aren't happy about anyone being put in a similiar position.

[layinlow]

I hate to hear when anyone hits the streets Fr8. It is heart breaking, and maddening. In this environment it may be hard to do but I hope that everyone finds another seat somewhere.

[vuela747]

Well, even if you get your tickets does not guarantee anything. Myself, I went and got my ratings, got upgraded and now because I am an FO, I will be in the streets after 10 yrs in atlas. But again, this is nobodies fault but our own because we could it have one seniority list like Polar, but no, we voted (I could not vote, I was furlough at the time) for 2 list instead. I am so happy for the unity we have in Atlas, I think and I always thought Polar had it right!!:D

[L-38]

Never glad for any loss of any aviation job, Fr8. . .and that's the whole brotherhood point here with today's jobless climate . . Our attempt to keep the AAWW labor force on payroll where possible, as long as possible - be it Atlas crew, Polar crew, or even the arbitrated Polar FE's, airplanes or not!

[dumbdumb]

Fr8-

We had guys on the street when Atlas didn't just a couple of years ago.

It's not about sharing anymore. It's about two seperate seniority lists until a combined CBA is reached. That's when the real mess will begin as sorting out furloughs out of seniority are probably going to show.

As far as a seperate list for F.E's let this be a lesson about F'ing your buddy to get what you need. What a crock of poo that was. Shame on whoever set that mess up. It's terrible to see a guy/gal with all those years of service get kicked to the curb just because he improved himself by advancing to the front of the airplane. And yes, it's bad to see anyone get kicked to the curb.

Take a pay cut upper management, middle management. That'll cut some cost. What? You're worried you can't live on a high six figure salary? Yeah, that's what I thought. Your ears all of a sudden went deaf didn't they?

And yes, I speak from experience. Three furloughs and a job loss by no fault of my own.

I wish everyone well.

[nitty-gritty]

Heard a rumor that Polar is closing their Narita operations down. Guess that DHL - Polar Express deal is not working out so well after all.

Do you loose those NRT route authorities after a period of non use?

[EJetCA]

I thought we were all on the same team now nitty, since we MOVED ON and all...:ugh:

People are losing jobs and you can't drop the pettiness for awhile. :=

[L-38]

Do you loose those NRT route authorities after a period of non use?
Yes you do, Nitty . . . . I was once told that FedEx had used an empty C-208 Cessna Caravan at NRT, just to operate a daily landing so as to keep their NRT slots (not sure of the validity of this).

Polar's PVG slots are also now in question . . . if all true, watch as AAWW's stock tank's even further.

[nitty-gritty]

I thought we were all on the same team now nitty, since we MOVED ON and all...:ugh:

People are losing jobs and you can't drop the pettiness for awhile. :=Actually, legit questions for the future and merger of the groups.

As to "on the same team", that doesn't seem to be coming around to one contingent here unless it selectively suits them.

I don't see any messages (except 1) from the Polar side coming through the union and a pretty non participatory polar/atlas conference call by the same person of the Polar representation. All I hear about are how the Polar guys are not going to pay dues, NOT JOIN THE UNION, and file for a DFR (that should cost some bucks) when DH'd with them. If roles were reversed and I worked at Polar under ALPA, I could see the formation of a new LIST being passed around to union carriers. I'm curious how the new IBT union will deal with it?

So you will have to forgive me. Your response seems even more petty in view of how one group is continuing on and then mentioning "SAME TEAM" in the same breath.



L-38

Thanks for the info.

[layinlow]

I don't think it is that the polaroids will not pay the dues, it is just they will not have an automatic check deduction. I think there is a lot of mistrust as to what the IBT will do in representing the whole group. Do not get to hard on the polar guys until the proof is in the pudding. As distastful as it may be, in the end they will step up to the plate. Isn't that what is wanted in the end?

[nitty-gritty]

I think there is a lot of mistrust as to what the IBT will do in representing the whole group.

The mistrust began with ALPA National representing only one minority group (polar) that happened to vote for that current president. Favoritism at its best and not fair representation among the two councils.

That resulted in where we are now. At the IBT through the decertification process and under the NMB determination that we are a single carrier. Easier and cheaper than doing a DFR against ALPA National. Representing the WHOLE ATLAS/POLAR GROUP is not accomplished by representing just the Polar interests alone as was done under ALPA. It's the combined Atlas/Polar group now. That doesn't seem to suit the Polar group reflected by their lack union participation now. Being a union member at selective times of convenience is not being a union member.

I'm curious if Prater knows he screwed the pooch by doing what he did or is content on just blaming someone else. Most likely the latter.

[jocko2000]

PVG still open, going to restart ops there soon. Also, I heard that the merger is off. FAA won't allow it. Polar (DHL) filed with the Sec to separate from worldwide.

[m mack]

I hope you are wrong about this

[WhaleDriver]

Also, I heard that the merger is off. FAA won't allow it. Polar (DHL) filed with the Sec to separate from worldwide.

Total BS, SEC has NOTHING to do with the OWNERSHIP of Polar by AAWH.

[whaledriver101]

Hope your right jocko. Fact is,, there is not one Polar pilot that wants to merge with the "Atlas girls". Not one.

[nitty-gritty]

Sounds like someone has been talking to B.H. again. Look at what that collectively got you the last time at Polar.
http://atlasforteamsters.com/img/nmbcertification.pnghttp://www.atlasforteamsters.com/img/nmbcertification.pnghttp://www.atlasforteamsters.com/img/nmbcertification.gif
On second thought, follow B.H. to the letter. It seems to be working for us.

[WhaleFR8]

Hope your right jocko. Fact is,, there is not one Polar pilot that wants to merge with the "Atlas girls". Not one. Guess it's time to quit then.

[Fr8Dog]

I see the whole thing is going to start again!

We need Rodney King naaaaaaa never gonna happen.

Tom, Please do not let these a.h.'s raise your b.p. it is just not worth it.

[Furloughed]

doesn't make sense UNLESS the fleet is further reduced.


Ummmm .. I think that is what he was suggesting.

[Pharang_Baa]

Can anyone shed light on how the new Titan Airline will change things?

[747newguy]

Don't know of a "Titan Airline." Titan Aviation, on the other hand, is another wholly-owned subsidy of AAWH that provides numerous services (primarily dry leasing) except crewing--AAWH will do that.

I suspect they will be the leasing agent for any AAWH tin that they cannot utilize (or can't utilized do to legal constraints, ie, GSS).

From their site: "We are focused on the acquisition, sale, dry leasing, sales leaseback, marketing and servicing of commercial aircraft and related equipment."

Don't let all the fancy Photo Shop doctoring of Atlas Air aircraft fool you.

[Fr8Dog]

747 Newguy, How refreshing to see a post with some commonsense! :ok:

[tkinney345]

Looks like more pilots and FE's will be hitting the street. I got my letter on the 17th of Feb,saying so long. However two days before, I got a call from NewYork saying Atlas is going Down to 1 747-200(7 fe's) and will be putting 100 pilots on the street. Lets hope this does not happen. That said they did not say who the pilots would be Atlas or Polar or both. Its not looking great for any of us.

[Drzito]

Plain and Simple

AABO has got to GO!!

There has never been a better time to get rid of AABO than now. These individuals have enjoyed for several years the good life.

A "senior" 9 year old Captain was making up to 40,000 US more than a "junior" 11 year mainline Captain.

Based on that their salary, of course the have enjoyed a HIGHER profit sharing for the last several years.

In essence, they are all gateway WITHOUT having to pay taxes.

Company paid FAA medical twice a year.

Super Seniority for bidding, and displacing Atlas mainline.

The list goes on, and on withe the added bonus of NOT having to pay any union dues.

NO PILOT AT AABO has ever been furloughed!!!! or DOWNGRADED!!!

If allowed to continue these individuals will soon be also SENIOR to ALL POLAR PILOTS!!!!

Plain, and simple

AABO has got to GO....

[742]

Don't forget it was Dave Bourne that signed up to AABO super seniority,and neither he nor his IBT kronies will ever represent us.


Your understandings are not correct. First because Bourne does not have any fingerprints on the AACS super seniority, and next because the IBT DOES represent you. We had an election, they won and they are our collective bargaining agent.

[742]

You better go back and look at STN vacancies LOA,signed by DB.


And with all due respect, you need to go back and learn the history.

Using the current LOA to blame Bourne is like using the signature on the Securities Exchange Act to blame the 1929 stock market collapse on FDR.

[IslamoradaFlyer]

Polax52 is 100% INCORRECT...his is a recitation of revisionist history from his former MEC leadership. In fact, the STN LOA was signed and T/A'd by the previous Atlas MEC headed by Greg Amussen, a friend of the former Polar MEC Chairman Bob Fell. When that T/A failed, the NMB allowed the new MEC, headed by Bourne, to only fix enough things in the failed agreement to make it pass. The STN LOA was not among them.

By virtue of the new contract being ratified in total, Bourne was required to sign the entire document. You cannot pick and choose what sections of a contract to sign and refuse to sign.

As to his new representation by the Teamsters, Captain Bourne works for Mr. Hoffa. It's fairly obvious to anyone who reads the public filings that your previous leaderships arbitration claims are full of hot air in regards to your belief that you can control your certificate and ownership. One can surmise that the legal department of the Teamsters was not born yesterday either and will soon advise you of the same. Which will leave Polar crewmembers with a dilemma. Either to suck it up, admit they were hoodwinked by their former leadership and get on with their careers, or refuse to be represented, in which case they simply should not join the union and refuse to pay their dues.

If history is a guide, they will capitulate, just as they did in 2005 when their Chairman, in a stunningly brave move, caved in to management less than 36 hours into a 30 day cooling off period which ended up costing their crewmembers over 200 jobs.

[Pharang_Baa]

Getting back to the Titan, why was this company incorporated in the Republic of Ireland? Why not the UK or NY? Why are many cruise ships flaged in places like Liberia? Why is Delaware a place to set up a personal business not intended to succeed in the long run the US?

Perhaps, I am buying into to the photo graphics of what might be a new carrier under the IAA. Ryanair is pretty content about thier set up there and maybee I am thinking too much....

[EJetCA]

Instead of the horsecrap that passes as facts on pprune, one could just click on these links (Wall Street Webcasting - Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings (http://www.wsw.com/webcast/bbt13/aaww/) and http://www.atlasair.com/holdings/AAWW-BB&T%20Final%2002-09-09.pdf) and listen to what the kool-aid is for the month.

In it you will find some interesting info regarding Titan, and other fun stuff. Make sure you look at the slides only link too, as there are a couple of changes from the ones put on the presentaton.

Of course, as tight as capital is these days, they might not actually lie to analysts and investors, thus pissing them off, and them removing equity positions and lines of credit.

Or just continue fighting battles that are, satisfactorily or not, settled. It's like a bunch of old people down here in heavan's waiting room arguing over a shuffle board game played 20 years ago.

CR2...thanks for the updates from your side.

[L-38]

Getting back to the Titan, why was this company incorporated in the Republic of Ireland? Why not the UK or NY? Why are many cruise ships flaged in places like Liberia? Why is Delaware a place to set up a personal business . . .
All relates to the country / state with the most favorable tax rules, I believe.

[nitty-gritty]

Many, if not most internationally operated companies, create offshore leasing companies to minimise tax exposure. Good way to upstream money without paying hefty taxes in the unfriendly taxed country of the parent corporation.

I'm surprised Atlas took so long with creating Titan. Maybe someone was lining their own pockets with the existing onshore leasing companies that held the leases of A/C to Atlas/Polar. I remember three past ones. Atlas Leasing I, II, and III. Don't remember how those fell out after the bankruptcy.

I've done the offshore leasing company myself. It's legal and helps shelter your onshore company from more hefty taxes.

I would only get concerned about Titan if it gained an airline certificate to operate the A/C. GSS has proven to be more of a problem if they choose to do so than Titan would be now. Exampled by how AAWW was going to move struck Polar A/C to GSS and then take the GSS A/C and give them to Atlas to operate during the Polar strike. They thought that was going to work to the point of them initiating compliance checks on the A/C envolved. That was up until the Atlas crews initiated their illegal sympathy strike for Polar (the one that ended up with a couple of Fed court orders saying to return to work).

Of course, I remember the past conspiracy theories with Focus and Tradwinds also.

[EJetCA]

Off the Titan webpage (Titan Aviation (http://www.titanaviationltd.com/evaluate-our-services.asp))

http://www.titanaviationltd.com/images/bullet2-white.gif Ground operations support, maintenance management and crew services

Emphasis added by me for effect.

Scope will be key in the combined CBA. If you didn't believe it before, anything less than a scope clause that binds ALL the parent company crewing to our seniority list and CBA will watch the next iteration of AACS/AABO take our jobs.

Oh, more fun facts: http://www.atlasair.com/holdings/02-09-09%20-%20AAWW%20Investor%20Slides.pdf

The title of the first slide is just silly.....:ugh:

[nitty-gritty]

The key is getting scope under the Holding company and the companies controlled by or partially owned by, not just the individual airlines. Maybe something similar to Republic's contract.

Otherwise, they only have to start up a new spin off airline every time they want to circumvent a CBA. As proven by AAWW a few times over.

As to AABO/AACS, they could use them to start another crew leasing company outside of Atlas Air Inc. and STN. They just could not do it with the Atlas Airlines, Inc. They could start using them for another airline such as GSS via some base in Ireland. Crew leasing by AABO to GSS and A/C moved over and it's done.

[Heracles]

Titan adverts the GCC,, in the next bullet they advert Ground Services,,,hmm. most of AAWW's Ground Pounders have been hosed at least as bad if not worse than thier crews. Seams the trend started as soon as Polar came onboard.... I'm just sayin'''''''.
Except for JFK and PIK my guess there isn't a Ground Services guy who wouldn't butt-jab AAWW and giggle.
So much for the ol' synergy arguement.

[Pharang_Baa]

Oddly enough, Ryainair is an Irish company that falls under the IAA. I believe the IAA is the only JAR member state left that hands out validations to fly EI/JAA aircraft with a type rating from ANY ICAO state. They also have many non EU nationals such as Americans (North and South) flying legally with validations and EU/UK visas set up by Brookfield Av or Ryanair itself. Is it a coincidence that France, Germany, Spain and others do not?

Who is to say that the the aeroplane painted in photoshop will not have a EI reg on it (or did it?) and could be nothing more than a system that is being duplicated from Ryanair or as it's founding forfather who specailzed in what Titan is as advertised?

Understand the tax reason part of it all but when it comes to lack of power and success in Ireland recently with Ryanair; ALPA, BALPA, IALPA, and etc., could it leave a future pilot group to be left in the dark like those who fly at Ryanair as history has sadly proven?

For those who are wondering about scope, this could be a real catch me out! Is wise to buy into "psyops" of press releases genereated by some PR guy or look into the past of the last time there was a scenario like this in Ireland? The ultimate outcome was Ryanair today as you know it....

[EJetCA]

Since you like to bring up facts from the past, I'll just say thank you for embracing the idea I brought up before on one of these goat-rope threads (which for some unkown reason, I'm too stupid not be suckered into:})

The key is getting scope under the Holding company and the companies controlled by or partially owned by, not just the individual airlines. Maybe something similar to Republic's contract.

Anyone just read the KoolAid machine with the ANA contract? I wonder if they wanted a non-compete, thus the dropping of the NRT station...just a WAG on my part.

And in other news, the cronyism, which was feared, has shown it's head. At least they attached a mea culpa with it. Too bad they didn't hire one of the 66 pilots or 14 (nee` 43) FE's hittin' the bricks...or some 15 year ABX pilot on the street.

[EJetCA]

I'd venture that DHL wants to move their new toys.

Either way...ship stuff airfreight folks.... :ok:

[anothercargopilot]

Ejet CA said: "Anyone just read the KoolAid machine with the ANA contract? I wonder if they wanted a non-compete, thus the dropping of the NRT station...just a WAG on my part."

Could you please copy/attach or reference the ANA contract you speak of?

Thank you.

[EJetCA]

Check the rumor board.

It's on a secured intranet, so I won't post it in public. Those with access will find it.

I just find it odd after the announcement of NRT closing, that a question/answer (ambiguous enough that you can read it either way good or bad) regarding ANA opportunities was posted days after.

[Fr8Dog]

EJetCA


Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 44 Check the rumor board.

It's on a secured intranet, so I won't post it in public. Those with access will find it.

I just find it odd after the announcement of NRT closing, that a question/answer (ambiguous enough that you can read it either way good or bad) regarding ANA opportunities was posted days after.


I just looked at the board, the question and the company's answer.

It says NOTHING that you can say here public OR private.

Why Why Why must the few of you continue to try and make this out to be something that it is not.


If you are old enough, go ask your parents or Grandparents what living during the 1930's was like.

Although then one might ask why I continue to come here and :ugh:

[742]

After today’s investors conference call it is clear that the tin foil hats can be put away. The mystery customer will not start before October, and it is far from a sure thing at any date. Polar’s scheduled service, on the other hand, definitely lost a lot of money last year (was 46 million?).

Polar is now all ACMI.

[EJetCA]

Fr8Dog,

Is there any reason not to find it interesting that with all of the rumors that floated around in Nov and Dec that nothing was posted on there, yet days after the NRT closure, there was a posting, no matter how ambiguous? I'm not posting it, because if they wanted the information public, it would have been on the unsecured site.

I'm not a tinfoil hat guy, but I refuse to believe that the timing of certain events is purely coincidental.

I merely suggested that there might be a trade-off in the works, and they might be working a deal. More jobs is a good thing right now.

It is a rumor board afterall. It's not pbashpilots.com it's pprune.com

[L-38]

Polar is now all ACMI
Only with 6 airplanes and now ACMI again? . . Wow, that turns the clock back 13+ %#$ years!

[742]

CR2

ACMI? Polar? did I miss something again.... Blockspace agreement with DHL yes..


In the conference call today management was clear that there has been no scheduled service since October and that Polar was now ACMI. At least from a bean counting standpoint.

Of course the bean people don't live in the same reality as the rest of us.

[L-38]

Blockspace agreement with DHL yes
Perhaps you mean Polar's new LGG/SHJ DHL run? . . what next, new -400 nonstop service from LGG to FRA?

Understand that AAWW's -800's are now going to AABO/AACS, confirm?

[Fr8Dog]

EJetCa, Was not intended as a bash, I have re-read my post and do not see anything that could be construed as one. But if it will make you feel better....


I apologize FR8

Hey, I am just an old **** that has been doing this for the last 40+ years, I probably don't know what the hell I am talking about anyway.


Cheers

[Heilhaavir]

Understand that the -800's are now going to AABO/AACS.

What's a -800?

[Intruder]

ACMI? Polar? did I miss something again.... Blockspace agreement with DHL yes..
Yes, which is effectively ACMI, since DHL controls the schedule and assumes the fuel cost.

IMO, the "blockspace agreement" moniker is simply a tag to keep the regulators at bay, since I doubt DOT would like to have to admit that DHL has more than 25% "control" of the company, even though it has installed 2 top DHL execs at the top...

[EJetCA]

Fr8

I didn't take it as a bash, but I was referring to the tone by about 8 regular posters in every AAWW thread that beats a dead dog and each other, fighting wars that are over.

I tend to think that when in a holding company format, the timing for certain types of announcements/interjections/insinuations is not pure coincidence.

But what do I know? I came from the company that was that perfected the holding company format in their industry segment. :ok: [to be read a bit tongue-in-cheek]

Cheers and beers:D

[WhaleDriver]

Understand that AAWW's -800's are now going to AABO/AACS, confirm?
L-38,
You really need to pay attention. The new 747 is called the 747-8. AAWH has talked about the possiblity of sending the first three -8's to GSS, who fly for BA. They would be dry leased to GSS. AACS/AABO do not operate thier own planes. The word is, they'll be gone well before the 747-8's arrive.

[L-38]

Thanks' Whale - I knew some of that . . too much brew today.

[DMahon]

probably on the polar side right? I mean Bernie and crew have been there as long as I was, if not longer.

[Fr8Dog]

I can not belive that the Grand G___ D__N POOBA himself, CR2 has not put out the information about the 100 ATLAS ONLY pilots that were furloughed at 1415 LCL eastern this afternoon.

Slipping I guess

[Fr8Dog]

Damn, I always thought you had ALL the good stuff FIRST? What happened?

Aren't you right there in the middle of it all in Purchase and all.

[dumbdumb]

Best Angle: What do you mean by the company doing the right thing? Please explain . . .

[Deltabravowhiskey]

I inferred that to mean get rid of AABO.

DBW

[L-38]

" . . posts above are so completely ambiguous and full of NON-INFORMATION that you should probably think about going back to school and take a class in writing. . ." Post #221 above is somewhat of a ramble example, no?

[Heracles]

This sounds almost exactly like what polar/DHL pulled in ANC. With the exception of a very small handfull of Atlas employees in maint/spares,, all polar ground/ops staff were let go, leaving just 1 polar employee, the "station manager".
The obvious strategy was that after the people were fired they would have nowhere else to go but to one of the ground service contractors, then polar could rehire the same people as contractors at a few $/hr lower.
Short story, the contractor (swissport) was grossly unprepared, the old "primary" contractor F&E tried to absorb the displaced ground staff having been butt-jabbed by polar. ANC ground ops are fragmented per individual contract acmi vs. dhl. And what had been a smooth operation for close to a decade is now a cluster-f*ck. 80% of polar's old staff were thrown to the curb, and polar was forced to rehire a few of the office staff back due to thier own contractors incompetence.
So, ANC is a mess, a bunch of nice people got hurt, old and trusted contractors were betrayed. polar's bean counters strike again.

Heracles, slave to carhartt fashion.

[Fr8Dog]

Hey, when you are right I will say you are right.

I forgot about that part. Must be getting to old.



Cheers FR8

[L-38]

The point of my “Ramble” as you put it, is not to agitate, insult, or piss off anybody No harm intended there, Fr8. . . I hear you - just thought you had held the mike button down a little too long.

[Drzito]

It will be interesting to see if any AABO are affected by this next round of furloughs.
If only Atlas takes a hit(again), we are talking about mainlines guys with DOH of April 2000 being furloughed!!! ALL senior to several AABO pilots!!!:\
AABO is, and has been a real cancer that affects the careers of both Atlas, and Polar. It is imperative to get rid of these bunch of people who for the last years have enjoyed the best job of their lives.

There has never been a better time to get rid of them, and I say it again AABO has got to GO!!!
Tough times call for tough measures
Get rid of AABO:\

[Best Angle]

Quote:

"Best Angle: What do you mean by the company doing the right thing? Please explain . . ."

I meant this would be an excellent time to get rid of AACS/AABO (and also NOT transfer them to Titan) to demonstrate that AAWH is trying to work in a positive manner with the union.

Sorry about spelling Block Space wrong.....BA

[dumbdumb]

When you guys are talking about furloughs to 2000 date of hire, are you talking about pilots with that date of hire or does that include Flight Engineers? I've been all over Globalnet and can't find the EXACT numbers. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[anothercargopilot]

dumbdumb,

You have to wait for the next bid award for specifics. Keep an eye on globalnet bid award section.

[WhaleDriver]

For info no one from AABO will be furlough (once more), the plan was to downgrade 4 guys, but those guys were told by RR not to worry because it will not happen, go figure

This time RR can't protect them. This is coming from above RR. They might want to get their resumes up to date.

[layinlow]

I find it hard to believe but I have to agree with Fr8Dog. You don't want to wish anyone on the street. Not in this industry. I think an apology is in order.
It is ugly and going to get uglier.

[IslamoradaFlyer]

What has happened to all of CR2's posts? For whatever reason, they are missing.

As a moderator, one would hope that he would look at Polax52's comments on #198 and his other previous posts that show a predisposition to again falsely impugn members reputations to satisy his own misguided interpretations of both verbiage and facts.

Others on these boards have had privledges suspended for less. The pilots groups have enough to work through; Polax appears to be intent only on trying to incite the groups for his own perverted pleasure.

[CR2]

Moderators are not on duty 24/7. They are volunteers. As for removing posts, it occured to me that said posts had nothing to do with the thread title. Probably not the cleverest of things to post either if you think about it. Mea Culpa.

This thread has been more or less :} civilized. If anyone feels like using the scab word again, be warned. You'll be permanently banned.

Gonna sit in the background and wield the stick if necessary.

[Heracles]

So, as morbid as it may be, whats the best estimate at the current "body count"? Decreasing the crew roster,, increasing the attendance of Roswell and Mojave? I'm sure the -200 has taken some pretty big hits. Or, is Atlas once again adding to Southern's fleet?

[Deltabravowhiskey]

increasing the attendance of Roswell and Mojave? I'm sure the -200 has taken some pretty big hits. Or, is Atlas once again adding to Southern's fleet?

No more airplanes are being parked...

Previous furlough addressed the reduction of the classic fleet to 7 operating.

All -400's are flying and even working Military to pick up the slack.

DBW

[WhaleDriver]

All -400's are flying and even working Military to pick up the slack.

What slack? The -400's have lost their contracts and are now taking the flying that the classics have covered, leaving the classics without work...no slack there except on the -400's hanging onto contracts!

[IslamoradaFlyer]

No prob, CR...just was a bit surprised to see them gone.

Thanks.

[L-38]

The -400's . . are now taking the flying that the classics have covered . . Any revenue port in a storm, but a $16-$18,000/hr amortized aircraft (-400) doing the AMC work of an old worthless classic? This perhaps is like digging ditches in your Sunday suit.

[Deltabravowhiskey]

I believe they recently negotiated 100+ ton rates instead of the former 80 ton rates (MD-11 size loads). Benefits are improved planning/efficiency for AMC, better margins for Atlas using a 747.

Everybody wins.

DBW

[Intruder]

$16-$18,000/hr amortized aircraft (-400)
Dunno where you get that figure, but -400 ACMI rates are WELL below that -- on the order of 50%!

[nitty-gritty]

I've actually heard of those $16-18k per hour rates from more than one source. Just don't know if they are the same rumors repeating themselves or not. The loads don't seem to be over 80 tons so far on the flights I have done. That may change with the Afghanistan push.

[L-38]

Dunno where you get that figure. . Those figures were obtained from the written transcripts of the last AAWW investor's conference call (the link of which has now seemingly disappeared). It was stressed by B Flynn however, that those numbers were very general.

[Intruder]

Sounds more like ad-hoc charter rates, including fuel, at the peak of last year's fuel costs...

[Fr8Dog]

Wa Hoppin???? I thought They Were Gone??? 2009-2 It Is Amazing!

[Drzito]

Incredible!!!

If the eurot:mad: contractors(AABO) are a separate animal, then that means they should take the hit with FURLOUGHS, AND DOWNGRADES!! too. If we go by DOH they ALL need to be DOWNGRADED!!!

We continue to have a union "leadership" that refuses to put a halt to this masacre. Yes we changed unions, but at the end of the day the 3 stooges are back at it again. The end result: same mafia different name. Whatever happened to electing new fresh faces?

Pathetic

AABO+Teamsters=VERY unhappy POLAR, ATLAS Pilots

[CR2]

Polax52 is taking a break from PPRuNe. Anyone else who insists on using the "scab" word will also be taking a break.

This is the second and last warning. :ugh:

[Fr8Dog]

A wolf is a wolf

Same animal different fur

[IslamoradaFlyer]

To assume that any union can force a management into changing terms of a legally binding document unless they want to is unrealistic.

One should suspect that given the numerous rewrites of bids that have taken place in the past, that what is published is not fact until it happens, if it is not rebid sooner.

Perhaps it would be wise to wait a few days to see what really happens and not run off a cliff. One must also remember that during contract negotiations, many things are said to guage how foolishly the other side will react.

It's always better to wait and keep ones powder dry. Right now, the perimeter is being prodded for weaknesses.

Now is the time to focus on your negotiations and do things that give your team the maximum leverage. Patience is the watchword.

[dumbdumb]

Well, this is going to get interesting . . . .

With the new bid awards, if I looked at it correctly, it's going to kick people all the way down to an August of 2002 hire date. The projected person is scheduled to take the walk in July.

Sorry to those of you who may be affected.

Man I don't wish this sh*t on anybody.

[nitty-gritty]

Curious thing is, "how many companies give you 4 months of notice before they cut you?" Past experience at other carriers that employed me was at best thirty days notice.

Makes me curious the ultimate agenda behind such notifications, especially noting past extended furlough notifications that didn't happen at Atlas.

On a second front. This may not be a time for Atlas management to start screwing with too many furloughs of US citizens when Atlas is exporting jobs to offshore crew leasing companies such as AABO. Such sub-companies that suffer no losses and only downgrades at best at a higher cost per crewmember comparatively to the same Atlas crewmembers under the same holding company. Could bite them in the posterior when trolling for government AMC contracts and such with the new US administration touting non-outsourcing of US jobs. Might be something for you guys to think about writing to your congressional reps about.

Lets hope our collective efforts under such will convince the company of their past wrongs on that front. Failing that, I'm sure there are alternatives allowed us if you think about it.

[Drzito]

It seems like the only way the ABBOs are going to be out of the picture forever is when award 2020-Rev.5 comes out, unless EVERYONE affected start voicing their discontent to management, union, and Congress

enough is enough!!:ok:

[TheMessenger]

Its odd that you at Atlas are complaining about "foreign" pilots taking "your" jobs. Look at what you Atlas pilots do. You are all “foreign” pilots flying Emirates Freight or QANTAS Freight or DHL freight................. I think you better stop complaining about AABO. You ALL are foreign pilots flying someone else’s freight. All this thread is doing is bringing negative attention upon Atlas.

[nitty-gritty]

Don't have a problem with foreign pilots. We have a lot at Atlas mainline right now. It's when they created an offshore crew leasing entity (outside union legal protections at that time) strictly to help bust an existing union I have a problem with them. Luckily AABO is only a remnant or thorn in the side that exists now as a remaining piece of leverage for management. Maybe the remaining AABO (@50) will no longer be a factor if we work on it some more. It's just a little more salt in the wound when furloughs and downgrades hit mainline guys and AABO recieves no equitable amount of adjustment to their ranks compared to the mainline. Says a lot about their purpose.

As to the carriers you pointed out, there is no one carrier hauling that freight with the exception to Qantas cargo. Qantas cargo is actually not part of Qantas as I understand it and uses Atlas and Qantas to do it.

[layinlow]

Hey gang

Carriers use outsourcing as a cheap way to carry excess cargo. Do you think Qantas uses Atlas because they can do it cheaper? Most of the freight is excess cargo and the company figures it is cheaper to outsource rather than buying or converting aircraft for an operation that may last a short time.

That is a far different than union busting.

[Drzito]

Well Said Nitty-Gritty:D

I DO NOT have a problem with the AABOs, or any other foreign pilot. I DO have a problem seeing fellow senior Atlas mainline pilots being downgraded, while "senior" 8 year AABOs get to keep their their seats. All because somebody refuses to put the europilots at the VERY LEAST by DOH!!!!! oh not to mention the fact that for the last several years they made over 40% more than VERY senior Atlas pilots.

What adds to the mess is seeing a few AABO downgrades, and ZERO furloughs.

I hope you get it now MR messenger.


If Atlas flies for other airlines it is because is COST EFFECTIVE for them.
AABO is not cost effective for Atlas. 40 pilots making Sterling, and a fully staffed office in STN is NOT COST EFFECTIVE!!

[bpp]

AABO pilots are salaried employees, therefore, Atlas tries to fly them 100 hours per month for the salary. I was told it's equivalent to $8500 US.
Almost all of them work on X days and make more. The problem is every Atlas mainline guy, as a result of AABO, flies 30-40 hours per month just to feed AABO 100 hours.
Now AABO has about 50 pilots (INCLUDING THOSE THAT JUMP SENIORITY) flying 100 hours per month while Atlas furloughs. Get rid of AABO and transfer the flying back to mainline and you bring back 2 US taxpayers for every 1 AABO pilot, that restores about 100 pilots jobs.
bpp:ugh:

[nitty-gritty]

Just a little ying - yang to life on this subject.

While AABO was and continues to be leverage against the Atlas mainline union crews, the same has been done to them. Most have a hard time caring considering AABO's original purpose against them. Soon after the Atlas mainline guys signed their union contract, Mr. C used the Atlas mainline guys as leverage against his AABO creation to put them in check somewhat. Proffered a new reduced contract to AABO or he would have to re evaluate AABO's cost effectiveness by moving the base elsewhere in Europe. Thus negating the STN Union/Company letter of agreement on AABO that kept them in their remaining envious positions. Leaving them to either no job or a job at the bottom of Atlas mainline should that happen.

Needless to say, they took the reduced contract offered by Mr. C rather than end up at the bottom vs. their ill gotten gained positions at the expense of many mainline guys. The only ones that didn't were the Atlas cross overs that jumped at the union busting upgrades at AABO (originally 19 crossed over out of 600+ Atlas guys). They have rights of seniority at mainline and AABO. Real pieces of work they are.

[Fr8Dog]

Is it not a little strange that the number of pilots and engineers furloughed at Atlas is about the same number of Polar guys and gals that will be merged into the fold?

Just a little observation on my part. O.K. let me have it!

FR8

Yea Spanky, you tell um, right arm!

[layinlow]

Nah. I am not going to let you have it. It is a good observation but I doubt that the company is conspiring here. They are not that smart and I don't think the classics will coem abck. Too costly to fly. However, I imagine that Titan may be the recipient of largess in AAWWH's desire to screw you guys. Watch your backside!

[hyfly]

If you don’t have any other arguments against AABO than posting incorrect facts then you better be quiet - maybe you collect first some correct infomation before making any posts here.

Repeating (intenional?) wrong facts doesn’t make them more correct – it’s just an attack on your own intelligence.

Here some facts to get some posts straight:

1. Compensation:
Atlas Captain 8 yr: USD 162,31/hr x 62 hrs (guarantee) = USD 10.063,22
Overtime after 62 hrs per month

AABO Captain 8 yr: GBP 7.336,41 x 1,3971 (GBP-USD) = USD 10.249,69
Hours are limited by FARs only

2. Comparison Working days – efficiency (both work 17 days/month)
Atlas US:
- day 1: commercial/deadhead US-Europe, rest in hotel
- day 2: start of actual operating duty
--->
- day 16: operating duty ends in Europe
- day 17: commercial/deadhead Europe-US

AABO:
- day 1: positioning from STN, actual operating duty starts
--->
- day 17: operating duty ends, followed by positioning back to STN

Result for a 17 day pattern:
Atlas US per month:
- 15 days effective duty
- 2 more hotel nights
- 1-2 commercial long-haul Business Class flights (deadhead considered)
- 2 US continental flights to/from homebase airport

AABO per month:
- 17 days effective duty
- 2 Ryanair flights to/from STN

Result for a 12 days ON – 13 days OFF – 5 days (followed by more days in the next month) pattern:
Atlas US:
- 14 days effective duty
- 3 more hotel nights
- 2-3 commercial long-haul Business Class flights (deadhead considered) US-Europe-US
- 3 US continental flights to/from homebase airport

AABO:
- 17 days effective duty
- 3 Ryanair trips to/from STN

Costs:
- Atlas US Captain per day: USD 10.063,22 : 17 = USD 591,95
- AABO Captain per day: USD 10.249,69 : 17 = USD 602,92
- Per diem/day: USD 56,40
- Hotel/night: USD 100,-
- Long-haul Business Class Flight: USD 2.500,- one way (estimated)
- US continental flight within US: USD 300,- one way (estimated)
- Ryanair flight within Europe: USD 200,- (average as per max SPP allowance list)

Monthly costs for an Atlas US Captain on a 17 day trip:
- Compensation: USD 10.063,22
- 2 travel days: 2 x USD 591,95 = USD 1.183,90
- 2 travel days per diem: 2 x USD 56,40 = USD 112,80
- 2 hotel nights: 2 x USD 100,- = USD 200,-
- 1 long-haul Business Class flight: USD 2.500,-
- 2 continental US flights: 2 x USD 300,- = USD 600,-
Total = USD 14.656,92 (only one long-haul Business Class
flight considered !)

Monthly costs for an AABO Captain on a 17 day trip:
- Compensation: USD 10.249,69
- 2 Ryanair flights: 2 x USD 200,- = USD 400,-
Total = USD 10.649,69

DIFFERENCE: USD 4.010,23 per month to the advantage of AABO x 45
= USD 180.000,-/month = USD 2.200.000,-/year

Please do your own calculation for the different pattern length – it will be an even higher number.

Result:
- 3 AABO Captains have the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains.
- 3 AABO Captains can fly + 300 hrs per month for the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains, who can fly only 124 hrs for these costs.
- AABO paid quite a lot of your profit sharing bonus.
- If Atlas US crewmembers can do the same hours and days for the same price then you should and management may talk about AABO.

3. Comparison Vacation days
- Atlas US: 14 days/year, NO pro-ration of days off
- AABO: 28 days/year, WITH pro-ration of days off
= Same number of vacation and working days per year

4. Other details:
Atlas US crewmembers work 17 days per month since February 2006.

AABO crewmembers
- worked 18 days per month until 2009 for the same salary,
- no premium pay for the first 3 overtime days until 2009,
- reduced annual longetivity pay for the last 3 years

STN office is doing administration for
- all STN based crewmembers (Atlas & AABO) and
- all European based Atlas and Polar ground staff.

5. Some finals:

Question 1:
Where are your comments about GSS and your demand that GSS must go?
- They operate 3 x 400’s, soon 3 more -8's, all owned by Atlas, operated by European pilots.
- This would/could be 60 less furloughs at Atlas.
- And they even operate into the US!

Question 2:
Why don’t you complain that there are no furloughs/downgrades at Polar, as there are several junior to AABO and should/will be merged with Atlas (soon)?
- We (Atlas & AABO) operate several of the DHL (= Polar) flights.

Question 3:
No other solution/discussion regarding the furloughs than bashing on AABO ?
- What’s about a proposal from the Union or anybody else for a solution to minimize the furloughs or one which would not require them at all, such as everybody works 80%?

Comment about Titan:
- Maybe not a bad idea to move all AABO crewmember to Titan and hire more international crewmembers there to operate a bunch of the -400s and even the 747-8’s under a different/new certificate.
- Would then be much easier to be accepted by and operate several aircraft for some European and other operators, who can’t/don’t want to make business with an US company to fly their freight – see GSS.
- And as the above figures show it will result in a higher profit for AAWH as less crewmembers are required to do the same.
- Thank’s for the idea, we will go for it and will propose it at the proper places – maybe you consider to get your JAR licence soon.:ok::\

[Skualo3]

HyFly,

Consider another prospective
Atlas gets rid of AABO.
Junior Captains/ Senior FOs keep their position/upgrade to the left seat.
Furlough junior FOs, are kept on property.
That brings the overall cost of wages down, as compared to paying senior mainline FOs AND AABO Captains.
The Union finds the leverage that it needs to represent the combined Atlas/Polar workforce.
And if your replay is that you have worked for Atlas for X amount of years, look back how much that is cost to the mainline guys in delayed upgrades and Furloughs. AABO getting canned might not be fair, just like what AABO did was not.
I try to use this forum for an open discussion, but I am not going to be mocked by you 2 months before my last paycheck.

[bpp]

Hyfly,
Let's assume I was contracted to TNT, BA, KLM, or even DHL Europe and these carriers were facing a major contraction. Now, since I am a contract pilot working for a crew servicing company in Europe, what would my fate be?

Let's say I kept telling management I was cheaper would they listen?

BTW, your numbers in your previous are not accurate. Several Atlas pilots D/H on the companies equipment to Europe. Also, several times I've seen AABO pilots commercialing on BA and others from the states to Europe. Transportation costs are a push.

Again, flight hours are pulled from mainline (even senior to AABO) pilots and given to AABO to "prove" you're cheaper. When the main crewforce is stuck at 30-40 hours per month and being paid 62 hours you do the math. Answer the first paragraph honestly and you'll know why we feel the way we do!

bpp

[VoyagerDude]

uhh I don't think we have any 8 year captains at Atlas I know I've been here for 10 years now and still don't see THAT event horizon......

[Flightmech]

Hyfly,

As far as I understand it GSS (a majority UK owned company) dry-lease the aircraft from Atlas, which are then operated on the G-reg by UK/European pilots flying freight for a long-term UK customer (BAWC). "They even fly to the US". Yes, with freight for a UK customer.:ugh:

[Best Angle]

Quote from Hyfly:

"- We (Atlas & AABO) operate several of the DHL (= Polar) flights."

What Polar/DHL flights are being operated by AABO? Didn't know AABO had a certificate.

BA

[Pharang_Baa]

All that being said.....

Is it true that US citizens/taxpayers are being put out of work and non US Citizens/taxpayers are employed before them out of seniority and doing US Military work or compensating for work done in lue of?

Gees if true, the IBT would at least send out a letter to be signed and sent to your house rep. like the stuff we get often from them. How does the IBT feel about this?

Doesn't Titan offer the same exact services that Atlas offeres and is nothing more than an "alter ego for Atlas/Polar?" Ultimately, the Europeans will be training Air Force One I guess. A TRTO also when we have unemployed people! Too many wrong things here!

I think too much time is being waisted on the Polar/Atlas/AABO issue when we wont have a leg to stand on when this foriegn opporater certificate becomes a real airline and Atlas will be part of a history book! We are missing the forest for a tree! The IBT and has no prower outside of the US. The Atlas Air Pilot Group is being cleverly circumvented!!!!

[Fr8Dog]

Pharang_Baa

I have to guess that you are not an American from your moniker.
However you do still have a spell check on your computer do you not?
Try a little proof read before the post maybe, it couldn’t hurt.

HyFly,

The point that I believe P.B. is trying to make here is:

There have just been over 100 American crews put out on the street.
Non-American crews are flying American military flights including bringing home dead American soldiers. This is also on American registered aircraft, for an American Company.

This does not even take into account the DOH issue here.

This is wrong, just plain as that. It is immoral, and un-just.

Now on to the Titan debacle:

Titan has been set up to CYA so to speak for the Company.

This is a way to DRY lease an airframe that they do not have a customer for.
It costs money for the a/c to sit, and it does not make money if it is not flying.

If you think this is a ploy to set up a crew leasing company, you are giving these guys more credit than they deserve.

200's Better to lease them than to park them. (Of course if Michael were still here he would chop them rather than have the competition operate them).

400’s Same as above, if you do not have a customer for the a/c and you can lease it to someone that does. It does not take a rocket scientist here.

-8’s Or as some say the 800’s, The Company has 12 ordered with the option on 10 more.
If you don’t have a customer, need I continue?


Don’t read too much into this Titan thing, this is not a screw the mainline guys thing here, in my opinion.

FR8

[hyfly]

BPP:
sorry, but again an incorrect fact:
All AABO are NOT on contract, they are employees of one of the Atlas companies.
Therefore your scenario starts already with an incorrect assumption and is therefore void.

Regarding the figures:
Of course are AABO crewmembers are as well flying all around the world on commercial flights - there is no difference as you know.

However, to get some compareable figures a "standarized" pattern has to be assumed and figures taken which are as close as possible to the real ones.

If we compare the extremes there will be the fact that sometimes the figures are just the other way round - but that would not be on a standard pattern.

And if you look closely to the figures and remarks you will see that I took only 1 commercial long haul Business Class flight into account, even as there are always 2 crossings US-Europe or v.v.
And as you know, there are costs for such flights ranging from somewhere USD 1.500,- to 3.500,-.

Skualo:
- fact 1: We at AABO got a job offered - we didn't set up AACS/AABO
- fact 2: We got the job offered as too few of Atlas US crewmembers accepted the offer to move to STN
- fact 3: If you would have moved to STN - the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time this was offered - you could be in the left seat for 9 years now.

==> Don't bash on the individual at AABO

==> Don't make the individual at AABO responsible for your decision

Best Angle:
It's hard to have decent discussion with guys posting such useless comments.
As everybody knows AABO does have no certificate, but the Atlas US and AABO crewmembers are flying Polar flights.
And it was not the point who has a certificate, there was something different.
Maybe you read the point again.

[Best Angle]

Just getting it right. You present AABO as if it were a seperate airline when, in fact, AACS/AABO is simply a group of non-union crewmembers on the Atlas certificate. Nothing more. AABO is not a stand alone entity. It cannot operate aircraft on it's own.

As to the Polar/DHL flights, I ask because I do not see any operated by Atlas any more. Polar is now operating the ILN-ANC-HKG flight.

[nitty-gritty]

- fact 1: We at AABO got a job offered - we didn't set up AACS/AABO
- fact 2: We got the job offered as too few of Atlas US crewmembers accepted the offer to move to STN
- fact 3: If you would have moved to STN - the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time this was offered - you could be in the left seat for 9 years now.


1. Offered a job just like those at Eastern Airlines when they were looking for non union replacement workers. No, you didn't set up AACS. You and your ilk just took advantage of the opportunity without concern of the moral implications. I doubt it ever entered into your collective mind set judging from your posts what you were doing.

2. Did you ever ask yourself why there were too few? Only 19 out of 600+ crew members taking the company up on the STN non union, non inline seniority upgrades says a lot to me and obviously most of the Atlas mainline guys recognized what the company's true effort was on that.

3. See answer 2 again. Few more took the offer the subsequent times and then complained when their was yet another tier of seniority created after new company interpretations. That was latter resolved to only two tiers AACS and Mainline.

After reviewing your previous postings on TOS between us, I noted you did a very good job of cherry picking answers and misconceptions to pump up your numbers for your argument. That is to be expected.

While doing so, you confirmed how the company has now used the Atlas CBA (in which AACS helped in minimizing by their creation/leverage through mainline 1 to 1 furloughs to AACS new hires) to bring your previous lucrative contract down to what it is now. How was it stated by Mr. C. "if we can't get the costs down in STN (AACS) we will have to relocate the STN base elsewhere more cost effective in Europe. BTW, that would negate the STN Letter Of agreement with the Union putting you (AACS/AABO) in as new hire seniority and pay." Took no time at all for all but about 5 (the protected cross overs) to sign that new AACS contract after hearing that. Funny how all of AACS/AABO wants to be friends until coming into parity with ill gotten seniority/pay/upgrades is mentioned somewhere-somehow. Then the true colors of original intent come blazing forth.

Now the company ties your contract TOS to the timing of the Atlas mainline one. That way, they don't give you too much now that they don't need you that much. You don't get anything new until we do.

So in the process of sticking it to the Mainline guys with ill gotten upgrades and past lucrative pay, you have unexpectantly stuck it to yourselves. You will find little sympathy on that except among your ilk. Most of your kind got the upgrade, flight time, the first TOS lucrative pay and left knowing what they were doing. Leaving for that next stable expat job somewhere else that they were just newly qualified for as soon as they could. AABO is now down to less than 50. I guess there are those that just can't get a job elsewhere in a legit manner despite seeing the bridge is out down the road. Guess you will just have to find another startup non union crew leasing place looking for non union replacement workers and convince them of your past arguments about what good guys you are. There are always some companies looking for that kind somewhere.

I don't think there will be many shedding tears upon AABO's departure considering the Atlas numbers that had been furloughed in past years and present while you boys kept moving along protected by the warden on so many levels.

Now there is a more labor friendly government in place compared to the last 9 years. Exporting of jobs while furloughing employees in the US seems to be a bad thing now. That took long enough. So while the company tries getting more government contracts, the AACS/AABO issue will be thrown into congresses face at every opportunity and soon the company may realize that AABO is more expensive than they are worth. With 1.4 million collective Teamster votes vs. the past 50K ALPA votes (at best when they felt like supporting us) we might get their attention now. It is an agenda item for the government and Teamsters.

[Drzito]

Hyfly

Bravo!!:D

Eurobouffon, I will give you an A- for your effort presenting your facts, You have learned well from your master number 1 (Est-ce que tu me comprends?) I am sure your presentation has been to Purchase a few times, and that is one of the reasons why you are still employed.

For now I will only debate a few of your non-sense points:

You forgot to mention the fact that for the last 5 years the exchange rate between GBP vs USD fluctuated between 1.8 to 2.0, and not until December 2008 it came down to the 1.4 range.

This means that a “Senior 8 year” ABBO Captain with a 7,336.41 a month salary (thanks for providing the exact figure) makes 88036.92 GBP a year at an average of 1.9 exchange rate he made at least for the last 5 years US167,270.48

The difference between Atlas-AABO is equal to US 44,274.20 a year!!!
Based only on that amount, AABO profit sharing is higher than Atlas!!!
a profit that could not have happened with 40 pilots, and NO AIRCRAFT.

There are not 8 year Captains at Atlas, that has been extinct specie(thanks to you), therefore your comparison is pointless.

Your comment “AABO paid a lot for Atlas profit sharing is quite the opposite”

As mentioned before on previous posts, AABO has no airplanes, therefore no 121 certificate(you might not even know what that means) how the heck can you jumpseat on US carriers as several of you do. Do you tell the Captain, or gate agent you work for Atlas, or AABO? how convenient!!

One more question for you:
Imagine you were at Carrefour standing in line just about to pay, and 40 persons jumped in front of you, and by the time you get to the cashier you hear: "sorry we are closed" would you be upset?

That is a true story at Atlas!!

Next time, please also show 8 year FO pay so that I can do your math again, and remember that when things go bad with Foreign Carriers the first to GO are the expats!! consider yourself lucky to still have a job.

Au revoir

[free at last]

Very well said ! It is time for a change. You guys deserve better.:O

[747drivers]

drzito

just to make it clear every pilot of AABO is per it´s contract an employee of ATLAS AIR INC.and nothing else.

[EJetCA]

Now on to the Titan debacle:

Titan has been set up to CYA so to speak for the Company.

This is a way to DRY lease an airframe that they do not have a customer for.
It costs money for the a/c to sit, and it does not make money if it is not flying.

If you think this is a ploy to set up a crew leasing company, you are giving these guys more credit than they deserve.

From Titan Aviation (http://www.titanaviationltd.com/)


Evaluate Our Services

Our outstanding aircraft outsourcing solutions, combined with our industry-leading expertise in freighter assets and services, enables our customers to flexibly and quickly ramp up their aviation operations without having to invest in expensive new aircraft.

By turning to Titan Aviation Leasing, our customers can effectively expand their capacity and capitalize on the growing demand for efficient, leading-edge commercial aircraft with superior operating economics.

Our global platform of aviation offerings - and the size, scale and industry expertise to make it all possible - guarantees that our customers can focus on their core competencies and generate greater value for their customers.

Our outstanding leasing solutions are backed by industry-leading expertise and freighter-related
value-added services:


http://www.titanaviationltd.com/images/bullet2-white.gif Network management and Consultancy: schedule analysis, schedule management, route- and traffic-rights management.http://www.titanaviationltd.com/images/bullet2-white.gif State-of-the-art Global Control Center: 24-hour customer service including customer-specific service web sites, AOG and parts support, IT support, central crew scheduling and coordination, sales and operations support around the world.http://www.titanaviationltd.com/images/bullet2-white.gif Fuel: procurement and administration, comprehensive fuel management program aimed at reducing customer fuel expense.http://www.titanaviationltd.com/images/bullet2-white.gif Ground operations support, maintenance management and crew serviceshttp://www.titanaviationltd.com/images/bullet2-white.gif Handling services, including a joint venture with AACT Co. Ltd., to operate a new, strategically located cargo warehouse at Incheon International Airport in South Korea.http://www.titanaviationltd.com/images/bullet2-white.gif Boeing 747 crew training


Looks pretty specific for crew leasing being held out to me...:ouch:

Another thing to scope in....

[TheMessenger]

I say again. Please shut down this thread. You Atlas pilots might get your wish. No foreign pilots flying "our" freight. You all would be out of a job. Cant you see the hypocrisy in your arguments? STFU!!!!

[dumbdumb]

The AACT terminal in Incheon that they talk about for Titan leasing is the exact same terminal that the Polar side has been using since its inception.

And to think that they're reducing our flights and no more overnights there. Yep, Titan Leasing had better be watched close. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

[joetommy]

Heard Polar was sold today. Anyone else hear that?

[742]

I say again. Please shut down this thread. You Atlas pilots might get your wish. No foreign pilots flying "our" freight. You all would be out of a job. Cant you see the hypocrisy in your arguments? STFU!!!!


You have completely missed the point. Atlas has crew members of many nationalities – and no one cares what color anyone’s passport is. I suspect that you would have a hard time finding a European airline that employs as many Americans as Atlas does Europeans.

The issue is the structure of AABO and its being protected while the mainline group faces a large furlough, aggravated by past management’s blatant use of it as a threat to the union.

[Fr8Dog]

What is the use. I give up!

:ugh:

[Furloughed]

So in the process of sticking it to the Mainline guys with ill gotten upgrades and past lucrative pay, you have unexpectantly stuck it to yourselves. You will find little sympathy on that except among your ilk. Most of your kind got the upgrade, flight time, the first TOS lucrative pay and left knowing what they were doing

Pot meet Kettle

I wish to emphasize that my finding on the merits of this case was that Atlas’ flying of Polar’s business was the direct cause of all the furloughs and downgrades at issue here
Lawrence T. Holden, Jr.
Impartial Chairman

[Fr8Dog]

"Lawrence T. Holden, Jr.
Impartial Chairman"

Does the word oxymoron mean anything to you?

[WhaleFR8]

Hey Mean Joe - are you enjoying yourself.

[IslamoradaFlyer]

#242 (http://www.pprune.org/4794314-post242.html) (permalink (http://www.pprune.org/freight-dogs/358392-atlas-aabo-13.html#post4794314)) joetommy (http://www.pprune.org/members/82691-joetommy)

Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: new york
Posts: 53


http://static.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon4.gif SALE
Heard Polar was sold today. Anyone else hear that?


Yeah...a group headed by Bob Henderson financed the deal. It's called "BA"...Bobbbbbb Air

[BELOWMINS]

That isn't what I heard. Polar has been sold to an undisclosed party and the name will be changed to Airbourne.

As long as we are being silly, we might as well be completely ridiculous.

[tkinney345]

Well then its UPS, no planes no crews date of sale April 1 2009

[layinlow]

Don't bet the farm on it. UPS is short on cash and there are other players in the game with a lot more in the bank. IN addition UPS has announce a large furlough.

[hyfly]

Hyfly

Bravo!!

Eurobouffon, I will give you an A- for your effort presenting your facts, You have learned well from your master number 1 (Est-ce que tu me comprends?) I am sure your presentation has been to Purchase a few times, and that is one of the reasons why you are still employed.

Thanks for the flowers, it's a honor to be graded by you!

For now I will only debate a few of your non-sense points:

Why do you reply on non-sense points at all - isn't that an attack on your own intelligence or are you just sensible on facts ?

You forgot to mention the fact that for the last 5 years the exchange rate between GBP vs USD fluctuated between 1.8 to 2.0, and not until December 2008 it came down to the 1.4 range.

Only correct facts please if you don't mind: The average exchange rate since the start of AACS/AABO (2000 - 2009) was 1.713, lowest at 1,35, highest 2,116.

This means that a “Senior 8 year” ABBO Captain with a 7,336.41 a month salary (thanks for providing the exact figure) makes 88036.92 GBP a year at an average of 1.9 exchange rate he made at least for the last 5 years US167,270.48

The difference between Atlas-AABO is equal to US 44,274.20 a year!!!
Based only on that amount, AABO profit sharing is higher than Atlas!!!
a profit that could not have happened with 40 pilots, and NO AIRCRAFT.

Correct figure over the last 9 years would be USD 150,800,- and that with a sometimes quite low USD-GBP/EUR value - just remember the costs for a beer.
And what I said before, which is still valid:
- 3 AABO Captains have the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains.
- 3 AABO Captains can fly + 300 hrs per month for the same costs as 2 Atlas US Captains, who can fly only 124 hrs for these costs.

If that isn't worth the slightly higher costs, than do you math again.

There are not 8 year Captains at Atlas, that has been extinct specie(thanks to you), therefore your comparison is pointless.

So why do you reply on that - again: attack on your own intelligence :ugh:
Fact is: There are +30 Captains at Atlas with a 7-9 year seniority - read the seniority lists and base awards.

As mentioned before on previous posts, AABO has no airplanes, therefore no 121 certificate(you might not even know what that means) how the heck can you jumpseat on US carriers as several of you do. Do you tell the Captain, or gate agent you work for Atlas, or AABO? how convenient!!

And what do you intend to tell anybody here ?
Facts: We all are employed by an Atlas Air Company as you are, have the same ID as you, operate the same aircraft as you, have the same FAA licence as you (+ some others), can speak and write the English language at least as well as you etc. etc.

One more question for you:
Imagine you were at Carrefour standing in line just about to pay, and 40 persons jumped in front of you, and by the time you get to the cashier you hear: "sorry we are closed" would you be upset
That is a true story at Atlas!!?

Pissed about your decision not to move over to the front of the line in time as you had the chance several times ?
You shouldn't complain about your actual position when you felt asleep several times at the wrong times.

Next time, please also show 8 year FO pay so that I can do your math again, and remember that when things go bad with Foreign Carriers the first to GO are the expats!! consider yourself lucky to still have a job.

F/O 8th year: GBP 61.627

Aren't you an expat when flying Quantas, New Zealand, Lufthansa, Emirates?
So the question is just who goes first.
But in the meantime let's all be lucky that we still have a job - regardless of our passports.
(Side question: How did you get your US passport - lottery or something similar, as your posts don't indicate you had an US passport initially - maybe French ?)

Au revoir
Wrong language assumed !
Any problems with the French at all ? As the name for the French Fries has been changed already to Freedom Fries - let's change the (2 AABO) French pilots as well to Freedom pilots !


Some more facts & comments:

1. There are only around 20 Europeans at AABO, the rest is from elsewhere in the world - including US. So spread your hate accordingly.

2. A basic and simple question:
Would you please explain why ONLY a US pilot should have the right to fly for resp. under the callsign Quantas, New Zealand, Lufthansa, Emirates etc. , taking away pilot jobs in Australia, New Zealand, Germany, UAE and several other countries ?
I'll give you a hint: ACMI - and that's where you and we all at Atlas are in - is like a good whore house: international girls - international customers - no moral - cash only.
So you (and others) should come up with a wrong moral under these circumstances.

3. Why don't you reply to any of my questions in the same posting - I try again:

Question 1:
Where are your comments about GSS and your demand that GSS must go?
- They operate 3 x 400’s, soon 3 more -8's, all owned by Atlas, operated by European pilots only.
- This would/could be 60 less furloughs at Atlas.
- And they even operate into the US!

Question 2:
Why don’t you complain that there are no furloughs/downgrades at Polar, as there are several junior to AABO and should/will be merged with Atlas (soon)?

Question 3:
No other solution/discussion regarding the furloughs than bashing on AABO ?
- What’s about a proposal from the Union or anybody else for a solution to minimize the furloughs or one which would not require them at all, such as everybody works 80%?

[747newguy]

"Fact is: There are +30 Captains at Atlas with a 7-9 year seniority - read the seniority lists and base awards."

9-year Atlas F/O and not even close to upgrade...

[geardownflaps20]

Pilots generally upgrade based on seniority-date-of-hire.

Sometimes there are opportunities where pilots can by-pass this standard.

The kindest word for these pilots are "opportunists".

In by-passing their fellow pilots at the same company, the opportunists are taking the money and the upgrades to the detriment of their fellow pilots, like someone that cuts in front of others in a queue. My fellow oportunistic pilots at Atlas that are are organized to cut in front of me call themselves "AABO", have taken about $50,000 dollars each year from my paycheck for the last 6 or 7 years. I have heard all sorts of convoluted arguments about how this is OK, but the fact remains that AABO pilots are Atlas pilots that have by-passed the normal queue for an upgrade, and have financially damaged the careers of their fellow Atlas pilots in doing so.

Usually this is part of a management scheme during, or before a strike.

The opportunistic pilots that take the jobs from more senior pilots generally go away after a while, leaving the original pilots the original jobs. The remaining oportunistic AABO pilots now have acquired the flight time and experience so that they now can obtain honorable employment at other airlines, and they should do so, as this is their most honorable course of action. Alternatively, if they wish to continue flying in the same Atlas aircraft with the same fellow Atlas pilots, such as myself, they should apply for membership in the union that represents the Atlas pilots, taking a seniority number consistent with the date that they take such action.

I was hired at Atlas early in 2000. As soon as the union leadership stopped objecting to union pilots bidding the Stanstead Base, I bid for an upgrade at the Standstead base. That bid remains in place today. I am senior at Atlas by date of hire to all the AABO pilots, from R Roland on down. I have served as a co-pilot for the opportunistic captains that are junior to me, younger than me, and with less time in command than me. I came to Atlas with prior experience in Lockheed, Douglas, Airbus, and Boeing aircraft, with prior experience in one-engine, two-engine, three-engine, and four-engine jet aircraft. I believe that I am as good a pilot as any of the opportunistic pilots at Atlas that are organised under the AABO label, but I am denied upgrade because my fellow pilots cut in the queue. I have little personal respect for these pilots, but I am the copilot, and I offer them all the airmanship, skill, and experience that I possess while in the same aircraft with them; once the cockpit is entered, they are in command and I will do what I am paid to do.

But be clear, the problem with AABO is not citizenship, not country of origin of freight, not even the country of issue of the relevant air carrier certificate or country of the owners of Atlas; the issue is the low moral character of someone that would cut in a queue to the detriment of those that have been waiting longer.

It is true that the stupidity and inexperience of the union leadership at Atlas has led to this situation. But if there is a long queue and people cut in front while offering the explanation, "these pilots are stupid and inexperienced in matters of queues, so I will cut in front of them, because no one will stop me" is that OK?

Now that you AABO pilots have cut in front of your fellow pilots at Atlas, there are furloughs. You AABO pilots have never been furloughed, even though pilots senior to you have been furloughed. Is this right? Or is this opportunistic? Nationality has nothing to do with it. Opportunisticly taking unfair advantage of fellow workers, people that work with you elbow-to-elbow, at all hours of the night, thru the war zones, the FIRs, and haz mat, that is the issue. You AABO pilots are Atlas pilots with no moral strength.

[anothercargopilot]

geardownflaps20,

Very well put. You have eloquently stated the reason why AABO/AACS must go.

Based on the latest bid award, these out of seniority AABO Captains would be the most junior F/O's in the company if they were Atlas Teamsters. Instead almost all AABO pilots are Captains, and bid senior to any Atlas Teamster pilot based in STN. The few AABO F/O's remaining either failed an upgrade course (some multiple times) or have been judged incapable of being PIC. Even these AABO F/O's bid senior to EVERY Atlas Teamster F/O who is or will ever be based in STN.

This out-of-seniority group has existed too long. I wonder what their excuse will be when they get let go because the cuts go as deep as their date of hire? I guess then it will be OK to furlough an Atlas Teamster F/O that was hired BEFORE an AABO Captain?

Opportunists justify their existence because how they save money for the company. Never once has Hyfly or any other pilot convinced me how AABO maintains a fair and just seniority or why their upgrades ahead of Atlas Teamsters pilots are deserved or morally right. Explain to me why only one or two AABO Captains get downgraded yet Atlas Teamsters suffers MANY more downgrades and 100 pilots furloughed? But AABO saves the company money so that is OK? Hardly. :=