CASA-ATC need CAR48 protection

[max1]

It is time CASA got involved and delivered CAR48 type protection to ATC, ASA are not constrained by legislation on duty time limitation.

CASA are content to allow Principles of Rostering (which are part of the Certified Agreement and not legislated) along with a misused Fatigue Assessment tool to be the only buffer against fatiguing Hours of Work.
How can CASA allow a critical area like Duty Times to be up for sale or open to abuse like ASA are now doing due to chronic staff shortages.

A new roster that ASA are about to introduce has a controller being rostered afternoon shift, morning shift followed by return that evening for doggo then standby shift the same afternoon. The standby shift (grey day)would have a controller being required to report from 4pm that afternoon til @7am the following morning.
To put it in context for pilots. (I am assuming the flights you may be able to fit in to the timeframes)
Day 1--You would work at 11am fly BN-ML-BN-SY, arrive back around 7pm.
Day 2 --start 5am fly SY-BN-ML-SY, knock off at around lunchtime.
Return that night at 10pm and fly SY-NZAA-SY, arriving SY around 6am (Day 2 into 3), you would then be on call from 2pm-til @7am (Day4) .

Therefore at 12pm, 6 hours after arriving back from NZAA you could be rung to be told to start at 4pm flying til late that night, conversely it could see you doing the nighttime SY-NZAA-SY flight again or it could involve you being called at 3am the next morning to do a 6am SY-BN run.
So when do you try to sleep not knowing if you will be doing a quick recall, allnighter or early start ?

Some money conscious controllers need protecting from themselves. On another thread there was the example of a controller doing shift-8hr break-shift-8hr break-shift, all on their rostered days off. 10days on -1day off -10 days on, is not unusual.

CASA will not get involved as they have stated that PORs and use of a fatigue management tool (which is currently under review) are acceptable in place of legislation. BTW, this is the same CASA that seem comfortable with TIBA, and ASA not having enough controllers to acquit the rosters .

Would the pilots consider working these type of hours acceptable?

[Jet_A_Knight]

You're given hours away from the console - learn to manage your fatigue properly!:rolleyes:

If the fatigue management tool you 're talking about is that piece-of-gob****e Fatigue Management System from The CSR that doesn't take into account level or intensity of work, or the fact that it is not always possible to sleep like clockwork when not at work, I don't think most people would believe what that system lets you do in terms of duty and rest.

More like an industrial tool to get maximum graft from employees - rather than a system for ensuring that people are not operating 'fatigued'.

And CASA don't seem to mind that - so, best of luck.:ugh:

[max1]

I forget to mention that even after this run of shifts they can still ring to ask you to start another shift 8 hours after the finish of the last shift.

The only limitation is that you must have one day off after a run of 10 consecutive shifts or shifts comprising 80 hours. After your one day off you can again do 10 shifts ,ad infinitum.
It used to be the writer of the roster would usually have to work the shifts as well. They are now written by the ALMs who don't work 24/7 and will never have to work the roster they have written.
There is no seniority/bid lines in ATC, so the 45/50+ year girl/guys who have been working shiftwork for 25+ years work the same run of shifts as the 25 year old youngsters who probably recover alot quicker.
Some rosters average a doggo every 4 days, and ASA expect you to be on call on ALL your rostered days off without pay. Even if you put 'do not call' on one of your RDOs i.e. My family and I don't wish to be disturbed at 4am/10am/3pm/11pm etc they will still ring.

ASA took us to the AIRC, just prior to Christmas, to get a ruling that we have an OBLIGATION to do overtime and that ASA should have the right to decide whether our reason for not attending was valid in their eyes or not.

The Commisioner failed to agree, in that he didn't see that on our UNPAID rostered days off that we were required to be contactable and obligated to attend. Thank God for that.

Our fatigue mangement tool is FAID, from someone involved in it I heard that they used 20 something University students in Adelaide as the guinea-pigs. Got them to stay up all night/get up early and solve problems .

From my understanding, it is not based on how tired you feel rather your ability to problem solve. It is supposedly very harsh on early starts. I remember not being much of a morning person at that age, staying up all night doesn't seem to bother it all that much. I also remember being pretty good at staying up all hours at that age.

It is supposed to be a predictive/static tool i.e. write a roster and then put it through the computer.You input a value that you don't want to bust. For ASA it is 80 (apparently equal to a BAC of .05) . ASA will consistently push right up to this value, if it goes over they will trim 5 minutes here, 10 minutes there until it fits.
ASA also use it as a dynamic tool ( not its intended purpose)i.e. if they recall someone, they put in the proposed shift and FAID assesses it. FAID is set up to consider this to be a rostered run of shifts not Additional Duty (AD). If the 80 is busted they will ask how much sleep you have had and how much you think you will get prior to attending for duty, etc? Who knows. Would those who want the money 'fudge' to get the shift? I understand that the designers of FAID are also not happy with the way ASA utilise it.

I really think CASA should have a good look at this, but based on their past form I'm not holding my breath.

[Plazbot]

Which group has this roster?

[max1]

It is proposed for Hunter. No prizes for guessing who wrote it.

[Reeltime]

Don't hold your breath waiting for CASA to do anything about those ridiculous shift patterns.

That organization washed its hands of its duty to protect against fatigue in this industry, when they started granting exemptions to CAO 48, at the request of airline managements.

They allowed what was once a safety regulation to become a tool for airlines to use in enterprise bargaining with pilots. The airline managers in their infinite greed, were not satisfied with an 11 hour extendable to 12 hour (back of the clock), 2 pilot tour of duty..they wanted more.

Now CASA, at the behest of the airlines, are trying to kill off CAO 48 once and for all, by introducing 'Fatigue Risk Management Systems'.

Code for 'fly til you drop'.... thanks CASA. :D

[missy]

Surely the answer must be here...

http://http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/nap/files/Aviation_Green_Paper.pdf

Search for "fatigue" and all will be revealed.

Civil Air in their submission to the green paper identified fatigue and ATC duty time as critical areas of concern.

http://http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/nap/files/Civil_Air.pdf

I can't envisage CASA doing anything until there is a mid-air collision where the ATC is found to be fatigued.

[Jet_A_Knight]

FAID is a horse**** system, that allows dangerous levels of duty to be carried out, including ridiculous back of the clock and extended duties.

And that's when the 'Risk Score' is at 75.

It takes NO ACCOUNT of the level or intensity of work at all - you're either working or you aren't.

Fatigue Management System = I never managed to be so fatigued.:{

[Nautilus Blue]

I can't envisage CASA doing anything until there is a mid-air collision where the ATC is found to be fatigued.


Yes, they will press charges against the ATC plugged in for being at work while unfit for duty. Remember, 'Safety Management' is about ensuring the safety of managers. A$A, CASA and the minister have layers of protection that make Fort Knox look like a piggybank.

[undervaluedATC]

And who picked a FAID score of 80 anyway? My understanding is that a 9-5MF gets a score of 40 by the end of the week. - So apparently it's perfectly okay for an ATC in a safety critical job to be twice as tired as banker or whatever.

[Angle of Attack]

I am not canny to all the details but after reading a few threads regarding ATC and shortages etc. it sounds pretty bad, I just hope you guys and girls dont go over the top re: work hours just work if your not fatigued, sounds like ASA are a bunch of idiots typical of a govt department really! Stick it up em! ^^;:ok:

[tasdevil.f27]

I feel sorry for you guys under the FAID system, when I worked in the rail industry years ago & they introduced it. Everyone's fatigue level actually increased and felt tired all the time (computer says yr ok though) :\

FAID only seems to favour the employER.

[Adamastor]

And the people selling it, tasdevil, and the people selling it. :yuk:

[neville_nobody]

All it will take will be a car accident on the way home from work where you run over a school child because you're half asleep, and you get done for driving tired yet you were apparently safe to control aircraft. I would love to see how FAID stands up in court in this instance.

[max1]

Lets not forget that the regulations, the ones that state that a controller must not exercise their license whilst having the most minor of incapacitiations, do not provide any protection to controllers re-duty time limitations.
This would be the same for driving a car. If a controller, following a night shift, had a FAID of 80 (equal to a Blood Alcohol Content of .05) and CHOSE to drive and had an accident it would legally be seen as the controllers fault.

The other night 7 controllers in Brisbane centre were looking for stand-down rooms to sleep following the doggo. These 7 people considered that they were too tired to drive and needed to sleep before attempting to drive home. It is ironic that the ASA organization-wide policy is a workplace .02 BAC limit, but are content to let their most safety critical area work up to and above an equivalent BAC of .05.
It seems that the whole idea of FAID is to put all the responsibilty on to the controller, yet again, whilst enabling plausible corporate deniabilty. There is an article in last months Flight Safety about real fatigue management, it is especially makes mention that some organisations have been seen to implement fatigue management but use it only as a 'box-ticking' exercise and are happy to manipulate these programs for their own ends. Hmmm, I wonder who they may be referring to.

[Pera]

What is the guy who wrote this roster doing in management. He/She obviously only knows how to read rules, not to interpret them and apply them safely. And what are his bosses doing allowing it to happen.

Sad. Lots of sick calls coming up.

[max1]

Pera you ask

"What is the guy who wrote this roster doing in management. He/She obviously only knows how to read rules, not to interpret them and apply them safely. And what are his bosses doing allowing it to happen."

This is what ASA upper management are looking for in a manager. The dollar is King, Queen, Jack and Ace.

What organization admits in hindsight to doing no workforce planning even though they are told, by the controllers Association for the last 6 years, that with an aging demographic and more lucrative positions overseas that they are heading for a staffing and retention crisis without an increase in training ,recruitment and retention.
Furthermore, and lets admit it wouldn't take HR (ASAs is called People and Change, haha) long to look at the age profile and easily work out that a crisis is looming, what organization would then gut the training area to 'save' yet more money.

It will take at least 3-4 years to dig us out of this hole, TFN has been CEO for 4 years this July and it is beyond a joke that he is still referring to "When I got here this or that wasn't done".
I think a year or 18 months is a more than sufficient time period to assess a business and start it along the road to where you think it should be going. So really we are 2 years down the TFN path. Can we really afford another 2 years?

[max1]

Speaking to the individual who attempted to bring in the standby shift 4pm til 8am that sparked my post. I asked him what shift was put into FAID to work out the 'fatigue' score.
He said he put in either a late shift or a doggo. It was pointed out that as he and the controller have no idea what shift they may be working they therefore cannot adjust their sleeping pattern to allow for this choice of shifts. If they sleep in the afternoon on the probability that they will be attending the doggo and this subsequently does not occur this will impact on their ability to regain a 'normal' sleep pattern, further effecting their fatigue down the track. They will have effectively worked a 'quasi' doggo if they cannot regain a normal sleep pattern. Like all computer programmes it is only as good as the information programmed into them.

They are considered to be on call from 2pm (must attend work within 2 hours of being called) til 8am. Surely this must be the time period that would be put into FAID, or at the very least a much larger time period than he is currently using. He admitted that they have not been given, nor have they sought any guidance, on the use of FAID in regards to standby shifts that are twice as long as normal shifts (16 hours) and will chase up, at my urging, what he is supposed to do. I will also be following this up.

It again emphasises that ASA are not interested in the well-being of staff, surely anyone looking at recalling someone to work after an all-night shift and requiring them to be on standby for 18 hours, some 10 hours after leaving work (at 6am) would have to think that these controllers would be very tired and question the veracity of the fatigue management tool. Obviously not if it furthers ASAs interest. No safety case and no direction requested from the designers of FAID.

Hello CASA, hello journos, anyone listening? Or are we just waiting for the Inquiry?