Profit - but you got to work more!!

[White Knight]

So a profit for the week - like most weeks:)

BUT - a 12 XX per month restriction implemented.. And only 5 XX in a row maximum.. Doesn't affect me 'cos I don't commute - sadly though it's going to hit a few people hard!

[Yossarian]

And ADs will be added to fill up the blanks on the roster. How convenient for scheduling. Anyone want to bet whether this will be changed back to original practice when the times are not so hard?

:ugh::ugh:

[Billy Madrid]

So let me get this straight.
1. We have too many pilots
2. All work is covered
3. So we will give you a bunch of AD's to make you look more productive.
4. You've done the hours but we'll give you AD's so you can't leave DXB incase we find some charters.

AD's will be turned in to STBY and you won't get called because
1. We have too many pilots
2. All work is covered
3. Guys all ready on RSV are not busy at the moment

Result
1. Expect morale to reduce
2. Sickness in top bid months to increase
3. General lack of interest to Help out the company when things go wrong

How can they give us more work when there is no more work to be done???
Any new flights?
I don't get it.
Sorry White Knight will affect everybody even if it's just an unneccessary STBY on a day you planned to have a BBQ.

[ghost writer]

I find it quite incredible but not surprising, considering who is the obvious originator of this new rule, that he has no understanding who is responsible for implementing the considerable operational cost savings that have been made over the last year.

Does he not understand who finally decideds on the fuel load, who decides how efficiently the aircraft is flown, who decides if we go the extra mile into discretion and who is required to speak in a reassuring way to the passengers to help them to feel safe flying with us.

What an idiot, we are the one group of people he should be keeping on his side most during hard times, this rule will alienate many and even if it does not affect you directly, it is not likely to make you do your best for EK.

The only positive thing I can say is that I am not surprised

[sandflake]

Two months in a row, rostering rule changes have been implimented after bidding has closed!

Can anyone explain the logic behind having to work more now that we're fat on pilots and that we MAY revert to old rostering rules once aircraft orders catch up with staffing levels. (or am i reading that wrong?)

And why, every week, are we fed a carrot about the fine position of Emirates then bombarded with doom and gloom on the rest of the industry and how bad everyone else has it. I'd like to think that most of us are well aware of the state of the economy/aviation industry.

The job is nice and I love being employed. They do it because they can. Fair enough..... but this managment has absolutly no class!

[unipilot]

Unfortunately Ek management has once again shown their true colours!As all of you have said,and I agree,their reasoning is totally irrational.Maybe the real reason,which was brought up last year when we had the same thing,and seems logical now,is that Dubai is in the s:mad:t and they want us to spend all our money here, not abroad ,to boost local economy.Or maybe some people in high positions don't like the idea of us having more days off than them.Or,and this is a rumour that is going around, we are getting in line to join Ethihad!
Anyway,I think things will get worse so hang on for a rough ride.

[Hook]

How can they give us more work when there is no more work to be done???

Very simple, expect major changes in any month in order to balance out monthly flight duty times - hence no overtime.
Also - pulled out on AD/stby as opposed to a day off means no callout pay. More money saved.......

[fourgolds]

I have always maintained that when times were good they took from us.
Now that times are bad , well I tell you this we aint seen nothing yet. This is just the start of it !!

This should also re affirm to those delussionals amongst us ( myself included) that they will never ever have basings in EK. They clearly want us to be in DXB ( hence the 5 XX restriction). I see this as a blessing because I was kinda sitting on the fence as to weather I should make the move. They've just forced a decision. Time to dust off the CV.

....and yes there are jobs out there.

[Billy Madrid]

Hook
I still don't get it.

1. I've never had overtime in the last three years. (No saving there!) If we have too many pilots why is anybody doing overtime??

2. Didn't get called on RSV and don't know anybody ever called out on a Day Off. (No saving there)

How does only allowing 5 days off in a row make us more productive?
Same for days before/after leave??

Ohhh Hang on, Looks like it is from AAR...Now I get it.

Lazy Pilots having 14 days off a month and resting in First class...Well not on his watch.

AAR "Why these pilots have so many days OFF???"

Office Monkey "Well all the work is covered and they are working up to the overtime limit...."

AAR "So... Too many Days Off ....mmm... Make it 12 Max now"

Office Monkey " But sir, we don't have any flights for them and think of the morale!!"

AAR " mmmm.... Give them AD's ..RSV... make up work for them, I'll show them for those ASR's about crew rest.."

Office Monkey "Yes SIR!!"

[Thylakoid]

In EK, they push it slowly ... next thing will be layoffs and/or unpaid leave, I am afraid.

[alwayzinit]

So let me see if I get this..................all flights crewed....yup.....guys on rsv rarely fly....yup........everyone flying up to overtime limit.........yup.....:ugh:
So the next bright idea...............All leave is cancelled until morale improves? ...

Yup that should make sure that the new aircraft stay on he ground for lack of recruits/retainers! brilliant brilliant brilliant

Baa Baa Baa Darling!(sic BlackAdder)

[ratpoison]

but this managment has absolutly no class!
Quite true Flake, but then again, have they EVER had any ??:{

[allaru]

Inspite of this, and all of the other cost neutral adjustments to our existence over the years there will still be a queue a mile long of pilots prepared VOLUNTEER to fill all of the positions, many of which that can only be filled by pilots, including instructors, examiners, CRM facilitators, technical pilots, safety pilots, recruitment pilots, audit pilots, pilot managers, the list goes on.

I doubt the company would be able to function without those pilots that give their time and skills to cover those positions, many of which are legally required.

Must be a managers dream, 'look at this we can screw these pilots over, and the'll still be lined up to come and do extra work in the office'

....no wonder we continue to be shafted, we have no one to blame but ourselves, if I was a manger I would probably do the same thing...well probably not but then again I'm not a manager.

[Craic Ore]

Now, I will not waste one brain cell thinking of asking for direct, ordering less fuel based on route experience, changing altitudes after examining enroute winds, flying slower if early, etc etc.

Yep, good move, you've just cost EK millions per year in another brilliant "cost neutral" move.

Resume update complete. There may not be many options, but they could very well be better than this third world operator.

[pool]

Unfortunately it's simple:

Just work strictly to the book, even if the guy/gal is extremely nice on the other side of the phone, - , no sir, no can do, see OM-A blah,blah,blah
Take that extra ton every time you're not quite sure
Engine out taxi? - , no can do, , - big slope, short taxi, narrow turn
Full reverse every time, - , first exit, ROT, heavy plane
Discretion, - , how do you spell that, Sir?
ASR, ASR, ASR, ASR, ASR ................
Atchooooo, oh, - , dial 2
... sorry, I wanted to pick up the phone right away, but was on the other big white telephone, what was it again?
... oh, yeah, the handy was not on, because I get zillions of spam sms from Etisalat, by the way, does the company come up for those?
I'd like to have made the departure on time, but there was this, and that, and in addition we had to make sure of blah, blah, blah

Make the system as slow as it treats us badly:yuk::yuk::yuk:
IT HAS TO SHOW ON STATISTICS NOT ON PPRUNE

[ekpilot]

Since a few years management is taking every opportunity to bring the pilots in line with the cabin crew rostering rules. They just don't miss one. Every excuse is good. Of course it is the easiest way to improve productivity. The P word is used all over. Just think about your BMI. It is a computer oriented management with no other thing in mind than money. Well what else should it be. It is a company after all. It's goal is profits of course. We will face very tough times ahead. Around here they say challenging times. With the number of planes coming in the next 2 years and the drop of pax, you don't have to be a genius to realize what is going on. I think EK is not well positioned to lay off skilled staff. Think about the cost of pilots going back home with their family. For sure they would not come back. Plus who would come to EK and sit at the end of this so called seniority list. Only the guys with no jobs would. I think the situation is very serious around the world. Aviation is always the first to suffer from recessions. Dubai is going to suffer a major blow in all areas in the next 12 months. Stock markets have crashed 80%, real estate is feeling the same trend. The barrel of petrol is below 40$. All projects are stopped or put on hold, hotel rooms occupancy is down big time. I think it is a good time to lay low and do all you can as a pilot to make sure we all get the most out of EK. Like mentioned in previous trends. Our T&C always had a downward trend in good times when the cie was making profits, guess what is in the future:suspect:

It's just the beginning, the balloon has bursted, brace for more now!

Keep Discovering:ok:

[Ahad Adump]

Will you guys relax.

3 things to make u happy:

.86
circle atc and fill her up
press 2 on evita

these 3 things will make u happy...... friends of mine tell me.

[millerscourt]

White Knight

For goodness sake stop moaning. Here you are flying a large shiny jet beyond your wildest dreams a few years ago to exotic places around the world staying in 5 star hotels whilst living in Shangri-La in a free luxury Villa.

Or am I missing something?:D

[gliderdriver]

And by-the -way, Delta and Fedex AREN'T layoff anybody. How they came up with this excuse?

This is a faulty and unethical info....

[mensaboy]

I think many people saw this one coming. Afterall, hirings are slashed for 2009 due to the general slowdown... fair enough. But it is more than that, they are increasing our work level by any means available (other than effective rostering of course). Hence, they reduce pilot hirings more than required and make those pilots already here, do more work.

We are still receiving aircraft aren't we? Perhaps loads have decreased but we are still doing the flights, so why such a dramatic decrease in projected hirings? This abusive plan has been in the works for a while. Now they have the excuse they need.

It is a cover-up by management and staff in rostering. They cannot effectively manage their crew, so they make up rules that basically allow them to do whatever they want. Hell, I've already seen it in my schedule for the last 3 months. AD days in my top bid month, that turned into Reserve days, that turned into 2 crappy back of the clock turns. All these changes appeared on my roster even before the month began!

Crewing does as it pleases now. There is no longer any recourse for pilots since they have us over a barrel. Our one and only recourse of ASR's does not generally apply to rostering practices such as AD days or max days off.

There is no logic to these new rules if management is being truthful about the purpose. If we are supposedly 'fat' on pilots (no BMI pun intended), then why further restrict our schedules? Instead of offering something like additional leave slots, or leave without pay, they are seeking greater flexibility by ignoring the normal rules. Don't for a minute think that if the worldwide economies get straightened out, we will return to sane rostering practices. Every pilot is stuck with these new rules for the rest of their career at EK.


The incompetence of crewing/rostering is the impetus behind these rules changes. How much easier is it for them to make up rosters, fill pilot seats and manually insert flights when there are no restrictions placed on them? They simply do not consider the adverse affect this will have on us; they don't care nor understand these factors.

Our bidding system has never worked at EK, even though it works great at other airlines. Why is that? Manual insertions! Solution (from an incompetent rostering department point of view)... get rid of all restrictions that limit manual insertions, roster changes and days off for pilots. The next 6 months are going to be tough on pilots, especially those who use to cherish and take advantage of days off. I do not foresee anything which will cause management to reconsider this latest insanity.

A pilot has to be desparate to consider EK now.

[Wiley]

they are increasing our work level But they're not... they're just spreading out lesser amounts of work so we'll all stuck here in the Sandpit semi-permanently, with endless *** ADs and the occasional Doha to ensure you can't get a decent day off string in between ULH flights.

I think AAD's got shares in Choithrams. That's about the only thing that makes any sense of this new system.

I'm off to now see if I can afford to pull the pin any earlier than originally planned. (Maybe that's AAD's plan? **** off all the long term pilots to the point that they resign so he can replace them with DECs on first year captain wages?)

[cerbus]

How can anyone be surprised with what EK is doing? This is just the tip of the iceberg with much worse to come in the months ahead.
Do you really think the bulk of EK pilots are going to leave? Where are the springboks going to go? They can cut our pay 40% and the Canadians will still be happy because they would still make more than they do in the frozen north. With the stonger dollar I got close to a 50% pay rise so the company feels that they can take that away from us. Like I said above is anyone surprised with what our ****te company is doing to us?
Fex Ex and Delta is not laying off presently and what the helll does that have to do with us in the sand? BOHICA!

[Schibulsky]

Hi Guys,
you pilots are not the only ones getting screwed by al Retard!
He just decided without any consultation to change the NCCs 4on4off roster with 12hour shifts to 8hour shifts. And the new roster shows 6on2off:uhoh: That means they come out of the last nite shift, have another full day off and start the next day early again :yuk::yuk::yuk:
Dont have to tell you what that means for the private live, increased opportunities to enjoy the traffic, commuting, nonexistant weekends etc.
The following outcry by everybody was just ignored:ugh:
So dont be surprised when the once friendly voice on the phone or VHF will be a bit grumpy now!
What a pathetic display of :mad: management!!
But at least they all can increase the BMI as they like:D

[fliion]

I personally am not particularly happy with the new developments.

That said - would the crack addicts who are beating their chests about sending resumes to all and sundry kindly inform the rest of us where that might be...and if you say Korean you obviously have'nt done the two-on, two-off commute...I have and the only thing its good for is getting away from your family on those days when you need to be there.

Eagerly waiting by my computer to update my resume based on the treasure trove of replys...

f.

[Tube Rider]

"... the only thing its good for is getting away from your family on those days when you need to be there."

I don't have a family. They became crack addicts and pi$$ed off.

[PositiveRate876]

JAN15 - FCI about First Class canceled
JAN15 - No more days off rule implemented

Coincidence? :oh:

Nope. It's just to put the worker ants' minor victory in perspective and reaffirm who still wields the sceptre.

[bigilla]

Agree with positiverate876. The so called "victory" was short lived indeed.

[Gillegan]

Seems to me that the aim of all of this is to:
Reduce the number of pilots hired this year to absolute minimum levels.
Limit days off by inserting available/reserve days.
Absolutely minimize any overtime that anyone might get due to the reduced staffing by making aggressive use of the reserves to balance time throughout the pilot force.


Expect lots of tips taken away or redistributed after the bid period closes.

[GMDS]

This will backfire big time. Maybe not on the short run, but it will set in.

The worst punishment you can inflict to a pilot, (next to cutting his pay and i fear we will be there shortly), is to keep him on ground and restricting his liberty of movement. We live to fly or to have time off. Reserve is a necessary evil, but what's on the agenda at EK now is pure punishment. Everyone knows that, therefore everyone knows they want to punish us. That is next to nothing any leader should avoid. If a company now goes ahead with such a disgraceful procedure, they display a level of arrogance and powerplay that has some longterm bad consequences.
I agree that we should behave to show them our dismay as fast as possible, for the sake of us AND the company.

[ghost writer]

A few points,

I, like most others, am convinced that this comes from AD, both TCAS and the Talking Horse will be just as horrified as we are, even if it is only because they realize that their management roles have become far harder. I do not believe that this originates from any rostering requirement, the people who work there are normal people trying to do their jobs with as little hassle as possible, they know that this rule will make their lives far harder, having to deal with a more irate and uncooperative group.

The problem now is how we help TCAS & Co to extract us from this situation. Due to "loss of face" they can't just go to AD and say that the pilots are revolting and it's costing us millions! They will hope that over time this just fades away, if there is no impact on operational costs, they may not even be bothered. Probably the only way we can influence them is by affecting their bonuses/ profit share (no hope really but theirs is more that ours) so that they must find a way.

I actually don't think any incitement on PPRuNe is needed over this, there are so many who are badly affected by this that it will gain it's own momentum, just work within the FOM/OMA and don't put your head too far above the firing line!

[Fart Master]

As informed by a friend at the Standards meeting a couple of days ago, they didn't have the balls to mention it there as well.

What a shower of spineless kn*bs.

Let's not make the mistake of thinking that they give a sh*t

[White Knight]

Millers - I imagine that there's a lot that you miss:sad:

This'll blow over much as the previous restriction on max days off did last year. I just find the response from above rather pathetic when they 'lose' a battle over rest seats:ugh: But it'll fade!!
I believe one of our esteemed managers was blowing steam at said meeting over the increase in use of full reverse thrust recently... I'm sure they'd rather see one of us in the grass at the end of the runway:mad::mad: Yet they let IFE spend vast amounts on money on stupid little glossy brochures all about India:ugh:

[pintofstella]

More AD's more times we all go sick, say no more.

[Craic Ore]

Just so you know guys, they tried to implement it down to 8-9 days off, but backtracked to 12. We are equals with the cabin crew now. I hope they allow the rest in the FD to be increased from 40 min to about 3 hours in the new OM-A!!!! :ugh:

[ekpilot]

How's that for improving productivity...

The Cost Neutral Pay Adjustment. The Factoring FIASCO. The Second Coming of Factoring. No more credit for Leave or Reserve. Cutting Prov Fund and Profit Share from suture pay increases. Accomodation shaftings. Promotion shaftings. DECs. Forced fleet transfers. FOs doing the training for cheaper rates. Outsiders doing the training for outrageously increased rates. TCK's "Disicpline" rant and uniform policy. Ever-decreasing meal allowances. The recent pick-up times goat-rope. The extra baggage issue. The sign-on time issue. The loss of 30min end of duty period. The farming out of ground school time into YOUR personal time and the CRM part into the previously important SEP day. 24hr ULR layovers. Three-crew JFKs. The introduction of endless dead-heading AFTER a duty when required. The 3 day PPC. The 2 day PPC. This shady, dodgy new ONE DAY PPC for "certain" candidates. FREE sim support duties (and god help us, guys STILL volunteer for them). The first shot at constraining rostering practices. The second time last year. This latest vindictive action. Did I miss anything?

I love it, what more do you need to explain after all. And remember it was in good times when they were making loads of money. Brace my friends. Here are a few more, from 28 days to 21 days in a row for annual leave, or new joining single pilots get a two bedrooms flat instead of 3 bedrooms before. Pilots not allowed in first class seats to rest. What about the lounge access when we travel. And the price of traveling tickets. More expensive on EK than other airlines. But it looks good in productivity report to announce a big profit with staff travel every year. I could go on. You give me some more examples...

Keep Discovering:ok:

[ekpilot]

They have to...:O

[Saltaire]

I think these points by Fatpilot ( watch that BMI now :O ), sums it up nicely...



The Cost Neutral Pay Adjustment. The Factoring FIASCO. The Second Coming of Factoring. No more credit for Leave or Reserve. Cutting Prov Fund and Profit Share from suture pay increases. Accomodation shaftings. Promotion shaftings. DECs. Forced fleet transfers. FOs doing the training for cheaper rates. Outsiders doing the training for outrageously increased rates. TCK's "Disicpline" rant and uniform policy. Ever-decreasing meal allowances. The recent pick-up times goat-rope. The extra baggage issue. The sign-on time issue. The loss of 30min end of duty period. The farming out of ground school time into YOUR personal time and the CRM part into the previously important SEP day. 24hr ULR layovers. Three-crew JFKs. The introduction of endless dead-heading AFTER a duty when required. The 3 day PPC. The 2 day PPC. This shady, dodgy new ONE DAY PPC for "certain" candidates. FREE sim support duties (and god help us, guys STILL volunteer for them). The first shot at constraining rostering practices. The second time last year. This latest vindictive action. Did I miss anything?

[5star]

Your message covers it all. I'm pretty sure the next step will be jobcuts.
In the mean time I recommend everyone to get that extra container of vaseline. :mad:

Btw. Have you checked your BMI yet?

[EffohX]

The way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if the archaeologists aren't about to uncover another "Knoteatinghamm Scroll". (Hint, hint, whoever you are.)

[sandfrog]

extra fuel, full reverse, all engines taxi and whenever one of those ad's become a rsv duty, atchoo press 2!
message might get through them!!! := :yuk::yuk::yuk: :cool:

[etops777]

It was quiet on the open time but since the announcement of the new restrictions, there has been 6 open flights!

Guessed people are pressing 2 now...

[dofus]

According to "Capt. America" I understand that the increase in AD's was a compromise between certain management levels to prevent the furloughing of the bottom 100 pilots from the seniority list. Apparently its a small price to pay ! What f@@kin planet is this complete t@@t on ? He has obviously been playing golf with Capt Ed again - must have got his golf ball stuck up Ed's arse !:*

[Fugazi]

dofus...spot on. How dare B M suggest 100 guys/girls would be furloughed. What evidence does he have to support this? How dare he put the frighteners on the 100 most junior Pilot's in the Company without backing up his supposed inside information. He should be held in utter contempt by the pilot community. As if he hasn't done enough damage already......:sad:

[Andu]

Can someone draw me a logic line showing how 2000 pilots working more days each month will make it easier for the company not to be forced to lay off 100 pilots? In my twisted logic, (which I admit may be flawed), it would seem at first glance - (unless the people on ADs are not to be used) - that making everyone work more days each month would make the lay offs more likely.

Sory BM, but when I saw the source of your message, I (apparently like quite a few others) discounted its contents immediately. Your reputation as a one-eyed, brown nosed company apologist precedes you.

[fliion]

Andu,

The only thing i can think of is that the policy is put in place to handle the coming deliveries of new airplanes. The most recent range number I have heard is it is now going to 12-17 for 2009.

By utilising the current pilots to the fullest extent perhaps they will mitigate the need to hire more and thus save money - purely my own speculation.

I would be very angry indeed with the latest concession imposed on us if it were not for the fact that FedEx and Delta are furloughing as stated in the official company email.

(p.s. I have friends at both who say it's news to them - as of today at least)

Perhaps the writer of that completely false statement will have the integrity to rescind and apologise to all its recipients for this inaccuracy.

Gents, the fact is - the current economic environment is very challenging and while the company did well we shared in the spoils so there is a side to me that wants to help.

However asking people to sacrifice while providing false or speculative information on other companies is wrong and undermines the credibility and pretext for the policy change even if is it legit.

A tad amateur.

f.

[fatbus]

He's Ed's sailing buddy. Ed tells him what to leak and sit back and see the results, than change FOM/SOP/Staff Travell etc

[pool]

I am quite disgusted by the people surrounding us.

The two bosses are blatantly telling lies, just to give their stupid changes a fig leaf. Beeing so obviously false, these lies only uncover their character deficiencies.
And then their spit-bowl-holder BM ....
-> supplemental AD iso day-off to save a buddy's job?????
Another one on the list of no-go for private flights.


EK managers and bowl-holders:
If you decide to put some more crap upon us, at least be men and have the decency of telling in our faces that you wanted so and why.


Open declared war has always been the honorable thing, terrorism hasn't

[dofus]

Check out the EK Yahoo email groups and you will see BM's email response and his "inside information " as to the reason behind the increase in AD's on the rosters. He knows all the wrong people in all the right places !

[disconnected]

So tell us the basics.... What is behind it?

[Gulf News]

Ok here it is. Edited only to comply with forum rules.


Rumor has it the AD days for the next couple of months were a compromise between certain levels of management to prevent the furloughing of the bottom 100 pilots.

Seems like a small price to pay so guys can continue to feed their families.... ....

BM
Staff No. somewhere between 322826 and 322824


Me thinks that our talking horse is actually two clowns in a horse costume. Ed is the talking mouth and BM (ANA) Capt. America (ANA) Tartan guy the talking Ar_e.

On his road to stardom he gets my vote for the Golden Najm with chairmans award and bar for having the thickest skin. This is one sad mupppet who just doesn't get it.:D

[fourgolds]

Does not compute. I have a mate coming for an interview in January !!!!

[fourgolds]

correction , he,s interview is in Feb !!! go figure.

[Panther 88]

Girls Girls,
This new policy is PURE punishment for our ASRs and forcing the company's hand in regard to rest facilities and policies. It defies logic and makes no sense whatsoever-so what else could it be?

Capt. A says it is to prevent furloughs. Bulls't. We may be overmanned but aircraft continue to come, recruitment is making noise, and frequencies to profitable cities will increase. So if we furlough a hundred or so guys it would have been for a short time, they would have to move them out of accommodations, revoke their visas, send them home and then a few months later, rehire them, do their visas again and ramp up their training.

What difference does it make if we have 12 days of or 20 days off if we fly the hours demanded? What difference does it make if we add 5 days to leave or 12 days, as long as we fly and are credited with appropriate hours?

Logic is lost on our perfumed princes in the new puzzle palace. They out and out LIED about Delta and FedEx furoughing pilots. Delta is in fact looking at hiring this year. This is a move by a small minded management to show us who remains in charge. AS and Mr. Ed know this and their hands are tied and this shows how little effect they have on policy.

PUNISHMENT, gentlemen, plain and simple. "We'll show those uppity pilots who really is in charge."

The sh## bucket is now filled. And to think I once defended and promoted this company. Alternatives are being looked at.

[fatbus]

You are owned by AAR and he wants 22 days /month of service, he will get even if it means 22 AD's/month.

[allaru]

Panther and fatbus you are spot on. And if you go back you'll see that this entire situation was correctly predicted by Gulf News in the crew rest laughable thread.

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/356545-emirates-crew-rest-laughable-3.html

[emratty]

Emirates have made many changes to working conditions over the years (most of them for the worst) however this one has blown all of the others out of the water. It is a PATHETIC way by the managers and their sidekicks (yes that includes you BM) to exert control over us and to remind us that if we complain about safety issues i.e the crew rest they can and will scr:mad:w us as much as they like.
I am sure most of us appreciate the need to help out in these economic times but this new rule does not make one bit of difference to productivity it only serves to alianate the pilot group which if the company are trying to save money is a really bad idea. Direct routings,optimum levels, OFP fuel, no reverse, single engine taxi why Fu:mad:king bother?????

[5star]

So we have a Trojan Horse in the yahoo groups...
It might be a good idea to temper the background noise in certain emails surfacing in recent days.

[fourgolds]

OK so there are rumblings about unpaid leave , how all the airlines are laying off pilots etc. However recruitment is still on going.!!!
So we will continue to worsen the pilots conditions ( using the global downturn as a perfect excuse ( yet we are still profitable) , paycuts etc are all possibilites). If the pilots leave , we have many more in the pipeline..

We will trim trim trim the their package , we have the upper hand and we know it.

Hold on boys , its going to get a lot worse. Remember all these amendments to our contracts were done during the good times. The bad times have truly arrived. We have absouloutely no recourse , apart from a memories like elephants for when the good times come back . ...and they will.

Greed caused this in the first place and Greed will destroy this Airline too.
Just watch , even from a distance. Boooooom the bubble will burst !!

[a747jb]

Well everyone, I can't agree more with all the posts, but there is one thing that everyone is forgetting, and so is EK management. The airplanes are still coming and they will need to fill these seats. In my honest opinion, and I am sure many will disagree, we do have one major benefit that will help us in the long run, and they have made no secrets about it. Most of our applications are from North America and particularly the US. Now as to completely get my ass chewed on here I am sure, I am from the US, and I know one thing for sure, Americans value quality of life!!! I am pretty sure they won't get all the furloughed mainline guys they think are going to come flocking over here, not anymore at least. I know of 3 of my buddies personally that when I told them about the new schedule changes, they said they would rather wait it out in the US (2 were from ATA and 1 from Aloha) Why you ask did they say this, the answer, and god bless America for 1 thing, UNEMPLOYMENT pay :) In the short term, they are making enough to survive and they won't come over for 12 days off and reserve every month (an AD is reserve if you ask me). In fact, I think many would get out of aviation before they did that. So, to all you Americans and all of those of you who know Americans, spread the word. To everyone else from everywhere else, spread the word also. If you come to EK, you get 12 days off, and the rest is filled in with reserve :) We won't see this rule change for a while, but it will when they need to hire again!!! Welcome to Dubai

[Sonny Hammond]

and have a nice day.

[kingoftheslipstream]

The FOM can only be modified by an FCI.

The rostering rules are contained in Ch 2 and they lay out some pretty specific information on Reserve Duty and Available Days. I think we might be able to read the rules correctly and apply them. :bored:

[Schibulsky]

To lose face or respect...you have to have it in the first place!
And to prove that he is thinking with the wrong end of his body he ordered that all early shifts have to start at 0700:eek:
So they all can join the morning traffic jam at the parking and enjoy 20min of creeping to the top floors:ugh::ugh::ugh:
Prepare yourself for more :mad: to come!!

[Schibulsky]

...here is another brilliant one:
The access to the parking will be controlled by new cards.
Everybody has to copy car registration, drivers license and provide further info like cell phone nbr, car colour, car manufacturer etc. on countless lists.
Most of that is readily available to the company and could be just programmed to the chip of the company ID :ugh::ugh::ugh:
Is there really no limit to stupidity!!:{
Keep discovering:ok:

[5star]

It doesn't look good fellow aviators....
This AD issue will only be the beginning...

Latest rumors : ALL Boeing deliveries (18 to go in 09) will be delayed until f.n. from February onwards.
Cabin recruitment will also be completely stopped in the next month....
Lets see how secure your and my job is....

[White Knight]

5* - I doubt the 777's will be delayed very much.. Lots of rumours but they are just that!! Now's the time that the company should be thinking big, grab the market by the balls and all that... At least if Timmy's 'we are unstoppable' is going to carry any weight:ugh:

[Straight & Level]

5 Star - I also doubt that Cabin Crew recruitment will stop in the next month if the advert in todays 7 Days is anything to go by. Stranger things have happened though!

[BigGeordie]

They can't stop cabin crew recruitment, although they could cut back and only hire enough to replace the people who leave- I doubt anybody is hanging on for the profit share this year. Seems unlikely though, as does delaying delivery of new aircraft at such short notice. Remember, Emirates still has money in the bank and now is a great time to be out shopping.

[145qrh]

So Emirates are going to stop recruitment ? maybe even give some unpaid leave?

Yet they still cant give everyone the leave they are entitled too.

Their target is only to give everyone 30 days per year, well short of our "contractual" 42 days.

The pr***s seem delighted with this, especially since some have even got more that 30..

I'm glad at this moment to be in a "fairly" secure job, but I for one can't wait to be out of this shytehole.

Let the good time roll....sometime soon please

[vindaloo30000ft]

after a little breifing yesterday theirs not enough expletives to describe whats being said about nasty dish dash with no brain and the peon dc, from lower grade staff to manager level. they say its the peons lack ability to manage crew control and his own staff that have shone this spotlight down from the 9 floor so now everyone pay the price. only reason this have been put in place against the advice and wish of every manager involved and hr is to f*** the staff - its clear arab managers think this brings results but its up to us to show it does not - C:mad:T

[Bird On]

Well the February rosters are indeed a work of art. :rolleyes::eek::{

A crew controllers dream come true.....an airline pilots worst nightmare (well one of them anyway :) ).

[Schibulsky]

@bird on
divide and conquer...rings any bell?
If you think the crew controllers are happy now...with max 4 full days off a month, max 2 days in a row and max 8 days alltogether...think again!!:ugh:
Better take on the management than venting your anger at the poor sods!
We ALL get screwed big time, the last thing we need now is playing into their hand by fighting each other.:=

[Flying Spag Monster]

Schibulski, help me out here. I assume your previous 4 days on was all the same shift? How does the 6 on work, do you go from day to swing to graveyard shift every two days or stay in the same shift for all 6?

[Schibulsky]

The 4on/4off shifts were 2 day and 2 nite, so you had 1 day to sleep and 3 full days for the family or friends.
Now the roster is 2 early, 2 late, 2 nite and after sleeping out you got just one full day off b4 starting again with early shift.
They will probably try some minor changes but thats basically it :ugh::ugh:

[a747jb]

So the long and short of it is is that 1 man just single handedly pissed off the ENTIRE employee group. Well, I don't know about you guys, but I will gladly trade my tiny little piece of whatever profit share we might or might not get to totally f... this guy off getting anything from his big share. At least now it will be a coordinated employee effort from all levels to fight back, not just one group. By the time this is said and done there will be no face to save, but hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Just pass it along to everyone else to remember that we (from pilots to crew control to rostering to the poor guys throwing bags) are ALL getting the shaft from management on this one.

[Ghostflyer]

Interesting views, many seem a little based in la la land; quite appropriate for Dubai.

The world is in the worst down turn since the 40s. The last time we were involved in this type of economic climate, after Sep 11, the situation went on for a few months. EK was effectively alone in the market, now there are 3 major regional airlines fighting over the spoils. Ek made cock all in the first half but will hopefully make a little more in this half; there will be no profit share. All of the major economies are in recession and will be for the foreseeable future. Dubai has a liquidity problem and at the moment we are committed to take another 17 aircraft this year. Much of our revenues come from markets where the currency has weakened against the dollar which means the revenue side of the balance sheet has fallen by in some places over 40% over the last 6 months. One of our biggest markets, the UK, has taken a 30% currency hit in the last year. The dwindling oil price has insulated us from the shock.

Looking forward, when do we realistically expect things to improve? 2010, 2011... By then if EK keeps expanding we will be in a loss making situation and retrenchment will take place. We have a good cash balance which will help us through the difficult times but in no way guarantee our future development. The fact is that we are not immune to the world situation, the are uncertainties about the UAE leadership and the way in which Dubai and Abu Dhabi will negotiate a bail out hang over EK's head.

Yep the theme of this thread, random AD insertion is silly but I think a few of us need to wake up and smell the coffee. Some difficult choices face us in the future and an expansionary strategy with the world economy as it is carries significant risk. The management don't take their decisions based upon the measley profit in the last quarter but rather on where they expect to be in the months to come. We have always believed we can survive and pick up the pieces in the future but now, in our own backyard, we are the poor relations. If the this recession is prolonged, anyone waiting for a job from EK will be unlucky. Recruitment has gone from around 300+ to 50 or so and I think we will rationalise the fleet and ditch some of the older aircraft to maintain the yields as the new aircraft arrive. But if you think our current modest profits mean we don't have to do anything you are sadly mistaken. The US realised several cycles ago that the only way to survive was to be ruthless over cost control and keep or make the operation as lean as possible. If that decision is delayed it becomes almost impossible to turn it around in time.

Over the coming months, ADs will be the least of our problems. I'll be keeping my powder dry for some more important battles that we will face in the future. You might not agree with me and this is only my opinion but I'd be interested if anyone can explain to me why we are going to be insulated from the down turn and offer a more optimistic view of the future.

Schnowzer:ugh:

[fatbus]

Fight back ,how would you suggest they do that?
Keep in mind its a mid east airline.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Ghostflyer habibi. No one here can doubt that cost must be controlled at these times. However, one man pissing off his whole workforce by implementing things which do NOT achieve cost savings, infact are more likely to cost EK money in the long run, by having a very demotivated workforce.

Most here @ EK are team players, except AAR it would seem :ugh::ugh::ugh: Tw@t.

SyB :zzz:

[Schibulsky]

@ghostflyer
You are right about the general situation but whats going on is not an attempt to solve the crisis TOGETHER but to rule with nothing but FEAR!!
Your AD is basically just aimed to force you into unpaid leave and to show you that they can do whatever they want:E
They put pressure on everybody just because they dare to discuss the issues.
There is no better way to use the resources than a 4/4 roster. Now they have no flexibility and pissed off employees.:D
I have never seen such pathetic display of mean spirited, clueless :mad: management before
...and for the fighting part...we might learn a lesson from the lowly drivers. There was an issue with no supply of drinking water in summer...ALL of them reported sick one morning:eek:
And what a surprise...that problem was solved within hours:ok:
Allthough I would never suggest that option for EK staff:=
But if you are treated like children...you might even react like one:{
@ fatbus: keep in mind we are not stupid!;)
Good luck everybody:p

[Andu]

Can somebody walk me step by step through the logic behind this latest piece of silliness? Apart from forcing me to buy more groceries in Dubai, (and pissing me off royally!!), what in the world are they achieving with what seems to be official policy now, a swag of days off, then one trip, all too often finishing after 2300 local, immediately before a pilot commences leave?

As for the 5 day off string restriction, it must actually be costing them money, as people who might spend money on a subload ticket (money that goes into the EK coffers and uses only a seat that would be otherwise empty) to go home are frequently forced to stay, increasingly embittered, in Dubai.

... to buy their groceries in Dubai. That's it! AAR is leading a supermarket-led recovery for the Dubai economy.

Can someone confirm, as I saw someone post on the all pilots group, that when he saw how many days off could be achieved by a pilot bidding for a 80 to 90 hour roster on multiple ULH flights, he said that such pilots were "stealing from the company"?

[Schnowzer]

KH,

Good spot, I changed my handle when I was the mod of the EK site.

So how do you deal with the policy. Whinging on PPrune I suspect won't do it so maybe it comes down to taking the opportunity to go to the newly announced weekly.

Ghostflyer Schnowzer Type Person:O

[White Sausage]

Well, I guess everybody now knows what to do: Whoever I spoke to since this :mad: gave us the sh:mad:ts is saying the same: No more moneysaving for the company. In the long term this will backfire big time for Retard:ugh::ugh:.
How can someone be so damn stupid to alienate the entire workforce in times like these when you need the support or everyone?? I don't get it how someone can be so dumb.
I always used to be proud to be a pilot for EK, not anymore, unfortunately. No more motivation, no more favours for the company, nothing anymore. And I guess I'm not the only one...

[Panther 88]

Ghostflyer,
Good analysis, however by using your logic and the logic of the perfumed princes when times get better and we have a pilot shortage, we will have more time off and less AD days. Looks like you have the reasoning and possibly the CV to step into the puzzle palace yourself.:confused:

[woodja51]

All of the posts above show me that regardless of what the company think of you guys, you are all passionate about what you do and are professionals. But that professionalism is obviously is being seriously tested by these policy changes..


i dont know how this will pan out but if the changes dont agree with you the trite answer is to dial '2 ' .. it does work but if that concept challenges your ethics then whose problem is that??

we still get paid and the company is still making money so ,,,,,RELAX!

[pool]

I am sorry to say on my last flight :

With a little effort I could have left on time but didn't.
With a little effort I could have saved some fuel but didn't.
With a little effort I could have set idle rev but didn't.
With a little effort I could have shut down a donkey on taxi but didn't.

I am by no means proud of this, it seems quite unprofessional and works against my ethics. So why did I continue??
It will show on statistics and therefore raise attention. My mails and concerns to management do not.
Our beloved boss AAR displayes a dismal infantile attitude and therefore the only way he can be reached is by acting in a similar way.
Action and reaction.

EK has turned back the clock to HR management stone age. :{

[Bitburger]

A couple years ago I got fiercly attacked because I dared to be negative about EK. Today I understand why.

[5star]

The fact that they --again-- tighten the screws which impacts many in our private lives tells me one thing : ED the talking horse doesn't give a damn sh*t about his skippers. If our dear 'local' friend came up AGAIN with a new rule like max 5 days off in a row, then at least I would expect my fleet manager to stand up . Not over here.

As the Dubai ship is sinking, I'm afraid more buckets of **** are ready to be piled over us...

[alwayzinit]

Slightly off topic but...............

If cost saving and improved productivity are the goals then maybe a good prooning of the more rareified atmosphere offices is the place to start. But I suppose that would the turkeys and Xmas routine:ugh:.

How many Managers are supported by each aircraft?

If the stat is the same as the Royal Navy's Admirals to ship ratio we are all in big trouble.

Thinking Happy Thoughts?

Alwayz:ok:

[Schibulsky]

EK has around 20% more VPs than aircrafts:uhoh:
It's like the VPs Elevators east and west in EGHQ are reporting to the SVP Elevators EGHQ who is reporting to the DSVP elevation devices Emirates/Dnata :p:p:p
BTW they are all entitled to min 3xprofitshare:D:D:D
Lean production :confused: not at EK:=:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[PositiveRate876]

Ghostflyer/ Snwsr

Good analysis and prognosis but I can't believe that you think the new rostering rule is going to help.

If the rule stated all pilots will fly 78hrs a month, no more, no less and rosters will be optimised to achieve this, nobody will have a problem, and you are using your resources to the max. With 900hr limitation and 6 weeks leave a year any more and you'll go over and any less and you're unproductive.

Imposing a 12 day off max rule and a day off next to leave limitation serves no purpose other than to alienate the staff. What tells me this was a one man's idea that did not benefit from a group brainstorming session is the fact that the author did not take into account the fact that unlike February with 28 days, next month is March with 31. So it's not going to look so pretty. All the best to crew planning next month as they try to tailor the March rosters to comply with this bright idea worth a Brown Najam.

Using excess reverse, not doing engine out taxi and loading up on gas you don't need as some suggested, is poor airmanship in my opinion.

But pressing 2 for your insertion will send the right signal. With the extra crew required to get called out for those trips, the new policy will soon stop being 'cost neutral'.

[halas]

Leaving the APU running for five+ hours at home base is a waste.
No reverse and single engine taxi are nothing compared to company policy after we have left the ship. Multiply that by how ever many sit there between shifts.

For a larf, paruse your peepers over the talking horses latest contribution to Fleet Facts.
You will soon learn where his priorities lie and it ain't with the pilots well-being.

On a side line the FOM states that the fleet chief pilots will monitor the rosters and communicate regularly with the pilots, amoungst other requirements. Not sure about your fleet, but mine...l hear nothing.

By-the-way, l hear the OM-A after three years is now in beta phase!

Najms all round :}

halas

[PositiveRate876]

Yes there's wastage all around. It's seems like only the pilots are held accountable. The other day the APU burn was showing 1600kg when I got onboard. :D

I don't mind operating the way they want. But if they will mess with the rosters for no apparent reason, then they will see resistance.

[Bird On]

Using excess reverse, not doing engine out taxi and loading up on gas you don't need as some suggested, is poor airmanship in my opinion.
Amongst other "tactics" they actually do not relate in any way to the qualities of airmanship per se.....in fact it could easily be argued that quite the opposite applies.

What they do equate to is a poor work ethos being engendered and perpetuated by the actions of a pathetic company management.......two entirely different things.

What is unacceptable is thinking of nothing else better than Press 2.

This has no impact finacially or otherwise on the company particularly with so very many pilots now on ADs (read STBY) every day. It only serves to mess up the lives of your work colleagues....... you know those on your side.
He or she may have been done over by the manual insertion of Ad/Stbys in their roster but could at least expect to spend the time at home with their families until, yep someone unnecessarily "Presses 2" so that they can stay home instead because they see themselves as more important than their colleagues.....now that is poor form and inconsiderate.

Have no doubt about it, abuse 2 and in no time flat the company will in short order revert to the good old days of requiring a Doctors visit and sick note for any sick day....even one day....causing more inconvenience and problems for your fellow pilots, and no-one else. Geez, imagine the waiting time at the clinic because you can bet they won't employ any more Doctors/Nurses on our account.

[pool]

Bird On -- Spot on!

Amongst other "tactics" they actually do not relate in any way to the qualities of airmanship per se.....in fact it could easily be argued that quite the opposite applies.

I will not take on the slightest tiny little increase of risk no more.
Press 2 is just shoving down ones anger to a buddy, I'd rather shove it down their throats and incidentally reduce my exposure to their pathetic measures.
The cherry on the pie is EDs latest publication. Have you ever, EVER read more hypocritical bulls#!t? :yuk::yuk:

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

Would everyone please just take it easy. May I suggest that like most roster change directives, it will last a few months and when upper management is happy with ''increased productivity'', then forget about it and go back to their happy little lives. The we go back to ours. Remember the last change? Low long did that last?

Please don't call sick out of spite either. By doing so, you are inconveniencing the rest of who like to give it an honest go.

[Bird On]

On my fleet the last change was continuously enforced and never waivered from its introduction mainly because it could be achieved through the pairings......not so on the other fleets.

Now with the introduction and allowability for any number of AD days to be inserted into the roster to ensure easy and effective compliance with the new "rostering rules" on any fleet, I do feel that this time we are all going to be affected if for no reasons other than spite and jealousy and probably for a very long time. We shall see :uhoh:

[mini cooper]

How about rather than writing here, you actually send an e-mail to ED, Squeely, Fleet Chief Pilot etc etc so they know your feelings. Just be diplomatic, write clearly and explain to them how it affects you (if it does) or just ask for some clarification on the rumours (there are lots here). As a general rule I write out my thoughts, save it, go away for a few hours, come back edit it, leave the new revision overnight, then edit again before finally sending it - this way you don't regret what you've written!!!!

I have written an number of times about various things that I have thought were stupid. I registered my thoughts, got replies from those I wrote to and got it off my chest. You may not change anything but at least they know someone cares enough to write....

If you don't write, they have no idea how many people are annoyed at this latest stupid rule (they won't find out by the occasional guy 'pressing 2'!). By writing to them they cannot avoid knowing the depth of feeling and it may force then to think again about it.

In general most of us at EK are conscientious, professional people who want the best for the company. I will continue to use idle reverse IF I feel it is the right place and right time, likewise taxiing in single engine if I feel the situation warrants it. The fact they are being complete prats will not have any affect on my aircraft management. I will press 2 if I'm unwell, I will load extra fuel if it is required ie I will continue to do the job I do well and not give them any reason to question my professional abilities - but I will also still write to them when I feel it is needed.........

PERHAPS MORE OF YOU SHOULD DO THE SAME......WRITE TO THEM (give them something to do in the office rather than thinking up stupid rules!!!)

[mini cooper]

As a thought, especially as I know a lot of you guys are good at this sort of thing, why not post you objections / points / thoughts etc concisely here so that if anyone does pluck up courage to write in to Squeely, ED, Chief pilots etc at least they have a list of points to work from............ also it will help those guys whose english is not their first language.......

any thoughts...

[fatbus]

because they are all talk, nothing else

[Flying Spag Monster]

If Ed, TCAS et al read these threads they must laugh their heads off. Talk of "game on" and fighting back with such hard core tactics as using "full reverse" (didn't the UN ban that weapon?). Oh and please if you unleash the all engine taxi wmd then for the safety of the kiddies, restrict it to non urban areas to minimise collateral damage. Really, if EK has a large enough group of disgruntled pilots who actually think this way then help us all. I am as P'd off as the next bloke about the roster rules and as a commutter it effects me big time. So if you are too, then do as I did and voice your opinion to those that make the big Ds in the circus tent, not to the rest of the clowns. Who knows Mini, maybe some hero will pluck up the courage to launch a salvo of emails. Oh the Horror!

[Panther 88]

Spag,
I like your post and you make some good points. However, I believe my brethren here think that those are the only "weapons" we have against this punitive policy change. With a slow uptick in fuel usage begining with this policy change, it might just get someone's attention.

But please let us not take out our frustrations on the crew controllers. They probably cringe everytime the phone rings knowing it's either a new policy change or and angry pilot.

As I said earlier, there is NO logical reason for this change. I don't believe I have ever seen a more bone headed move by a management team in all of my years of flying. Very few will do ANYTHING at this point to help out. Do your job as laid out in all of our FCNs, FCIs, FOM etc---nothing more.

[fourgolds]

been said before ; " they know the cost of everything and the value of nothing"

sadly so do our passengers and tourists to dubai. for many its an experience they do only once .

the arrogance and greed is flowing over into the product , no longer winning awards . on time performance that is non existant , tired ,angry cabin crew , engineers ,pilots bla bla. .......... but hey we have 600 movies and brand new shiny uniforms for the cabin crew , our executives stay in top shape using their private 'floor' with running track etc.

talk about dropping the ball

I wish the ostriches would take their damn heads out off the sand.

[Wiley]

Isn't there an old truism in business (I think it goes back to the days of Dale Carnegie) that the first sign that a corporation is in decline is when it builds itself an edifice for its HQ?

[woodja51]

Wiley - you mean 'the hive' ??

I try to stay out of there as much as possible - ever try to find anyone there yet!!!

If they are looking for productivity why not put everything on the table but.... they dont want to do that ... like job share/basings/remote rosters/temp basing etc etc.... because it is easier to throw bone head ideas at us..

How come these dudes have not got the single engine taxi ban on the back blocks lifted yet...or am I out of touch??

The other day riding brakes to keep the speed down to '10 knots + GPS drift error of course... I was taught thirty years ago using thrust against brakes was bad technique but what would I know...that might produce abetter result than the last diatribe.:ugh:

endof.

[mensaboy]

I believe upper management has effectively utilized a technique to avoid fixing problems. They make it so difficult for anyone to address an issue, that eventually most people give up. Try calling HQ regarding ANYTHING and you will see what I mean. No one answers the phone, some messages boxes are left filled so we cannot even leave a message and then there is the general attitude the office dwellers have when dealing with us.

No one is accountable. The gibberish I have listened to from Crew Control over the past few weeks would confuse a linguist. I have also been dealing with a 2 1/2 year old problem that has taken me from feeling annoyed, to complete frustration, to anger and now it is well into the comedy phase. Last week when I tried contacting the FDM for over an hour regarding an issue, I finally gave up.

The management mantra is to confuse and aggravate us to the point we cave in and give up the battle. This is an effective technique for incompetent managers to hide their deficiencies. No wonder the likes of The Talking Horse/TCAS/FM's and well basically anyone in a mid-level management position, is useless at their job. They are probably faced with similar problems, and they gave up trying years ago. Although, I suspect many were hired only after the xrays revealed their lack of a spine.

There has been an attitudinal shift in HQ regarding pilots and cabin crew in general. It is a negative one. I said this before the latest AD debacle and I think we are only now seeing the affects. It will get worse, I am certain of it.

[145qrh]

Just read the latest fleet up-date.

It just gets better, AD's can now be rostered up to 6pm by crew control, not 5pm as it says in the FOM...and that's a quote....sorry unless we get a FCI stating that they can go and get stuffed (nearly wrote fecked:}).

These fleet updates,e-mails, newsletters are an absolute joke. Changes to policy, FOM ,FCTM all sent by un-approved means.

Changes are supposed to come by FCI, FCN or Notam. Something which the authority has seen or has some sort of say in, not from the tea boys weekly e-mail.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[mud mover]

I have been with EK for 6+ years and have never felt the need to express my displeasure to management before, however enough is enough. Have just sent my feelings through to Ed by way of an Email. I don't expect a reply ( more like a phone call for tea and biscuits ) but I hope it makes him think.

I urge all the rest of you that sit and read this thread to actually do something positive and put pen to paper, don't make it threatening or rude, just list your grievances and ask for an explanation.

The more people that write the more he may realise the strength of feeling amongst his pilots.

[Wiley]

It's widely acknowledged in management schools that one of the more effective styles of management is "MBWA", or "Management By Walking Around" - i.e., the boss spends quite a bit of his day on the shop floor, visible to his troops, stopping to speak for a few moments with even the lowliest toilet cleaner, (which, let's face it, would appear to be about where we pilots stand on the food chain in the eyes of some up there on the "Tent(h) Floor" – [which I know is actually on the 8th Floor – or is it the 6th? - but I do rather like the “Tent Floor’ term and all that it implies]).

Allied to this style of management is the rather vital requirement that the manager practising this style of management be approachable. The lowly toilet cleaner, if he has a complaint or a suggestion to improve the way he cleans the oongah off the S-Bend, must feel that he can speak freely to the manager without fear of punishment or retribution.

A.S., to his credit, attempted a very tentative dip of his toes in the MBWA pool in his very early days by turning up at Flight Planning before office hours a few times. I haven’t seen him doing so in quite a while, but who knows, he may still do so, for how in the world would you know in the abomination of a Flight Planning setup the Wunderkinder have created for us now, which seems to have been consciously designed so that pilots on one flight will not "waste the company's time" (or should that be "steal" said company time?) by even encountering another pilot doing another service.

EK Management’s style has been the direct antithesis of MBWA for as long as I’ve been here. Way back when, long before the CBC, when our lockers resided at the cargo village roundabout, when they did the refurb. that moved us from the far side of the building to around the front, they specifically blocked off a corridor so that pilots would not be able to walk by the Flight Ops offices. I mentioned the folly of this move to the man who filled EGT’s position in those days and his reply was illuminating: “Oh goodness gracious me no, we don’t want pilots dropping in to the office all day wasting our time.”

I can’t agree with mensaboy’s assessment that everyone on the “Tent Floor” is incompetent. I’d be guessing that out on the golf course, out of earshot of Head Office, AS and Mr Ed are as appalled by this patently silly AD rule as we are. It’s just that they’ve both learned that there’s only one result for a senior manager who tells the Emperor his new clothes are a touch on the diaphanous side, a form of MBWA called MBWO - the ‘O’ as in ‘Out’.

[pool]

Just checked the ekallpilots group and read EDs answer to a good fellow soul's mail.
Well, there goes the well intended "we should all politely vent our frustrations to management, maybe......"
It is painfully clear now, that fear reigns in the upper floors. They will not listen for the slightest second as they just became aware, that the crisis will hit them first. EK will need pilots to move aircraft, but they don't need morons in the office. Unless they carry a whip and play drill sergeants.

Two lessons we learned today:

Our bosses have their pants down to their ankles out of fear for their job. Their only concern is to be usefull by proving that the blame lies further down. Nothing to be excpected from this side but the boot.

EK has returned to the leadership model of their ancestors. Divide and rule at its purest. Nothing to be expected from their side but the blame.

What to do?
I no longer know. Write and protest? Futile, see above.
My earlier proposition to show them failure by statistic? Futile. They are incapable of interpretation. Arrogance precedes the great fall.

Unfortunately they will miss this huge opportunity to gain a larger piece of the pie, even if it gets smaller. They will go down as one of the first, as the outside world will turn admiration into malicious pleasure.

Set up your way out.

[Wiley]

Having just read the same reply from Mr Ed, perhaps I should redraft the last paragraph of my earlier post, if not delete it.

I'm reminded why I decided quite some years ago that it was useless writing reports to management.

[kingoftheslipstream]

Ladies 'n Gents

We have ou'selves a little Mexican Standoff brewin' here...

145 QRH - I agree with you wholeheartedly Sir! No AD assignments upon making a telephone call at 1800 instead of 1700. Our good hearted A380 CP has made an unintentional error here... He must not be obeyed! The FOM rules here 'n for our brethren who don't seem to know or care: The FOM can only be modified by an FCI (or formal FOM amendment or re-issue)... NOT a memo, fleet update, telephone conversation, FCN, email, personal snail mail, tea 'n bikkies, or smoke signal. The reason management ain't issuin' an FCI is because they go to the DGCAA as part of the FOM protocol... figger the consequneces 'a that out yerselves.

Wiley - MBWA is an old style trick 'n most a us old timers ain't ever bought in to. Hell, when AS did it, ya couldn't even see him o'er the counter top! It's patronisin' as hell and this kinda perverted noblesse oblige is either not understood fer what it is by those too dumb ta know better or despised by those o' us who do as the crass oportunism it really is... it was used effectively in Commonwealth Armed Forces, mostly on tha' ground and trench monkey types, with good effect ta raise morale. I seen it a few times in various companies o'er tha years. It's not appropriate fer professional pilots. But, who says that this company thinks we're professionals when our immediate AB fleet mangler is a former BA ground agent and airplane wrench monkey? These kindsa messages within' the message are what really count. Like the great comms theorist Marshal McLuhan said: "It's the medium that is the message..."

Well, I'm off ta git my sense a hope restored an maybe my AUW reduced by a few grams... heh heh heh... I reckon' it's a good night fer a few glasses a heavy fuel and some good 'ol Hank. Maybe a little ol' CSNY jes' ta get a little a that ol' feelin' back... HOPE that is, it's damn elusive 'round here these days.

happy contrails!

[mud mover]

could someone post Ed's reply as shown on the EKallpilots forum so that those that doen't subscribe get an insight into the way he thinks.

thanks in advance

Don't worry - I've read it now.

[5star]

It is very tempting to post his ridiculous reply but don't know if it is very safe it do this. Remember there is a confidentiality clause in the FOM. Wouldn't be surprised if they'd spend a million or 2 to find out who did it after the showdown of who is in charge at EK...

To anyone considering joining EK in the future. Make sure you read last week posts about the coup by our dear management.
Life is pretty different now, with the new roster rules in place. When the dark clouds are gone, I'm outta here.
No thanks : no slavery for me.

[EGGW]

For those paranoid amongst you, fear not, they would have to get a court order from a US judge. Its been on the Yahoogroups, so is in the public domain anyhow.

EGGW

[Fart Master]

I've said it before......... I think many people in EK make the mistake of thinking that the management give a sh*t about us, they don't..... simple as that, they are just doing as they are told to protect their meesly jobs.

I have seen Mr. Ed in a meeting and he is as big a kn*b as we think he is, but it's AAR that's behind all this

[PositiveRate876]

could someone post Ed's reply as shown on the EKallpilots forum so that those that doen't subscribe get an insight into the way he thinks.

In brief: there seems to be an issue with where in the solar system you reside, and about your being misinformed about the latter. :)

[Bird On]

kingoftheslipstream

You bring up good points regarding the issue of FOM changes being incorrectly implemented and enforced by FLT OPS mismanagement.

Have you raised or considered raising ASRs on these violations in order to force their attention to the UAE GCAA?

[Wiley]

It would appear that the e-gate at the new HQ is actually a Stargate, and the reason there's a shortage of accommodation for newly hired pilots is that Dr Elizabeth Weir and her SG companions have yet to drain the new wing at Atlantis. (Not the Atlantis out on the end of the Palms, but the interplanatary Atlantis - where, apparently, we all live.)

[pool]

AAR would be Michael then.
Ally when it suits him, blood sucking alien when it's worth more.
ED and TCAS the dummies with the masks .....

[fatbus]

you guys need to out more often

[Fart Master]

Just as an aside, if the company is truly fat on pilots, not the BMI35 type, then why is it running two recruitment groups this week on 1st and 2nd Feb.

Uncle Adel is pissed off and has spat his dummy, thats all

[Instant Hooligan]

FM, Think you are probably correct, they are not fat on pilots, I got called yesterday for the first time in a couple of years on a day off to "help" them out with a flight. AAR is upset they won't make budget this year and is taking it out on the people with just as much vested as he has. Mr Motivator....!!!!

[ShockWave]

Hi guys, I am still well aware of how frustrating the above ongoing issues with Ek were and obviously still are but for those of you thinking of jumping ship be very sure of your options first.
I just recently successfully passed my training with Korean and the four weeks of line training hell has left many more scars than the previous ten years of perceived abuse from EK. No matter what your experience or ability you will still only have less than a 70% chance (depending on fleet) of surviving. Normal rules simply do not apply and when your families financial stability, house and profession are in the hands of mad men it is an awful experience.

However, once out on line it is a good job, so I am told. I am still recovering from shock.

Beware!

[5star]

if what you say is true then I hope you told them to f*c* off. It is the only way to show them that they simply cannot treat us the way they are doing the last 2 years.
I find it very very hard to believe that they would call someone with so many on AD's. Or did too many develop a cold over the weekend.:}.

[Instant Hooligan]

Rest assured, I enjoyed my day off. The latest directive from "Mr Motivator" has put an end to any such help!
Regards
I.H

[ekpilot]

Wow, an other little trick. If you have to be acclimatized for your SBU before ULR, that means you have to be in Dubai 5 days prior to the actual ULR flight to be legal. Since the flight departs in the morning and you need 3 local nights to be acclimatized for the SBU, basically you need your 5 local nights before the ULR.

Keep Discovering:ok:

[pool]

My special thanks to all the good souls who helped out the company a few days ago, when the usual DXB cock-up set in with fog.
Reading our managers thanks for the ready help by flying on days off and using all the discretion, after they shafted us with all these ADs, you actually contributed to feed AAR with more arguments to lay off some collegues. :yuk:

[145qrh]

Gee, great big thanks from Big Al.

Well done for all your hard work,now here's another kick in the nuts from Little Ed..:ugh::ugh:

[White Knight]

They won't be laying anyone off pool...

[fatbus]

AAR did in fact want to layoff some pilots, the issue of how helped the pilots cases. You dont layoff a contract pilot, you terminate

[Jet II]

They won't be laying anyone off pool...

I wouldn't be too confident.

Dubai is getting hammered economically - Sama Dubai (part of Dubai holdings) have just gone bankrupt and Emaar have stopped work on several projects - if companies 100% owned by the Dubai government are going bust then nothing is guaranteed.

[5star]

To all the ones who sold us their souls and screwed their fellow aviators by working on a day off : Job well done!!! We thank you very very much and a well deserved brown Najimm award is on the way to you....

While you were working your ***s off, we just decided to cut your days off by another 2, and put a limit to maximum 2 in a row....

[Wiley]

I think things may be as dire as the doomsayers are saying they are, so I wouldn't be too sure they won't park a few aircraft (and therefore some of us). A talking head on Dubai Eye this morning said that the UAE building sector was down 52% - that's UAE. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the drop in Dubai building was even higher than that to make an average of 52% across all the emirates. (Elsewhere, I've heard that over 90,000 people have left Dubai since the crunch first began to bite.)

He went on to say that it was hard to get answers on how many projects had actually been cancelled as opposed to being put on hold, as developers don't want to give the bad news to investors who've put money up front that they may not see any return on in the foreseeable future, if at all. He mentioned that there were many buildings incomplete, 'on hold' and the interiors exposed to the elements.

Others have mentioned, quite correctly, the enormous expenses involved in sacking pilots (cancelled visas, housing, termination benefits to name but a few of the factors that would come into play, to say nothing of the expense - and delay - in employing and training new start pilots when they eventually are required again).

Unfortunately, we have a precedent that money pouring in torrents out of one pocket to save a trickle from another hasn't stopped them from taking (shall we call it) 'precipitate' action in the past. The Alteon SFIs to replace our own TCIs, allegedly at four times the price, comes immediately to mind.

[dofus]

Heard a rumour the other day that the 'Tiger Woods' Golf complex/ Vila development has also been shelved in recent days from a mate in the know in construction. Very high profile !

[White Knight]

Indeed JetII, Dubai is getting hammered - but the majority of our passengers transit through DXB!!

I'm liking the quieter roads:cool: I hear 1000 visas per day are being cancelled..

[BigGeordie]

One of Emirates major attractions has always been the perceived job security. If they start to get rid of pilots they may find it harder to recruit in the future. Would you move yourself and your family halfway around the world to join the bottom of a seniority list (such as it is) if you believed, come the next downturn, you could be out of a job, homeless, and have your children looking for a new school in a new country as well?

[Jet II]

Indeed JetII, Dubai is getting hammered - but the majority of our passengers transit through DXB!!


All very well - but they come from countries that are getting hammered just as hard.

Al Jazeera estimated 600 000 jobs has been lost world wide the past month
and 70 000 job cuts were announced in the US yesterday!


I would be very surprised if we don't see some downsize of the operation fairly soon.

[ratpoison]

but I saw three yesterday
LR 3, I believe you may have left out a THIRTY before the THREE.:p