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John in YVR
15th Jan 2009, 02:19
I was operating out of Houston, TX, (KIAH) this morning and due to frost we asked ops for a spray.

Since there is no info in the Jepp manual for de-icing in IAH (at least not in my Jeps) I had to ask how such an operations is conducted. I would appear that the answer is 'with some confusion'.

It took only half an hour for a truck to arrive and have the deed done - long enough to have a good listen on the ramp and ops freqs.

Listening to the radio is would appear that there were several other people at IAH this morning (air crews, ground crews, ops controllers, ramp control) that also had never seen a spray operation. Here's to all the guys in the spray truck - good job but next time it would be better to have better communications than a :ok: "thumbs up".

Airbubba
15th Jan 2009, 02:31
Snow in PVG or even NRT causes similar confusion...:)

galaxy flyer
15th Jan 2009, 03:07
Amazing that KIAH had any idea of deicing!

GF

BobT
17th Jan 2009, 13:22
Even worse in Las Vegas when they had their snow last month. Hours delay awaiting service. Once the folks arrived, the deice gear they had was of insufficient pressure to move the snow off the wings. So they resorted to mechanics with push brooms walking the wings, followed up by a spray.

Shanwick Shanwick
19th Jan 2009, 23:10
You want to try it in St Lucia!

parabellum
20th Jan 2009, 08:01
Best de-icing ever, in my opinion, Anchorage.

Copehagen and Paris are pretty good too.

racasanman
20th Jan 2009, 09:18
If Bangkok need a de-icing team I'll volunteer:ok:

BusyB
20th Jan 2009, 10:32
The wonderful facts of PANC de-icing is all fluids drain directly into Lake Hood. The new plan is for a drain to take it all into the Knik Arm.

What price the environment in Alaska.:}

parabellum
20th Jan 2009, 21:32
Well, given the size of Alaska, versus the smallness of the population that might pollute it, I would have thought the effect of the de-icing fluid that actually runs off into the drain would be minimal, there again, I'm no "Greenie"!:)

Admiral346
21st Jan 2009, 00:08
The best deicing I ever heard of:

n 1991, the town gained exposure to the Western world with the inauguration of Alaska Airlines flights to the United States using McDonnell Douglas MD-80 jets. According to an anecdotal story published in the New York Times, the first Alaska Airlines flight needed deicing services, which were unavailable, so the flight crew acquired a quantity of vodka and sprayed it onto the wings[1].
from Wikipedia on Magadan, Russia

Cessna120
21st Jan 2009, 03:35
Are you kidding? I fly off of lake hood, the fluid does not drain into the lake. Are you on something?

con-pilot
21st Jan 2009, 14:24
Amazing that KIAH had any idea of deicing!


I am as well. How many times would deicing be needed in Huston, once or twice every five years or so? In forty years of flying to Houston I can never remember ever needing any type of deicing.

BusyB
21st Jan 2009, 19:21
Cessna,
I've been told that by engineering in PANC. How well does Lake Hood freeze these days?:}

Cessna120
22nd Jan 2009, 19:01
considering my bird is out of the water cause its frozen, Id say it freezes pretty good. I can include a picture if you'd like?

Cessna120
22nd Jan 2009, 19:09
See guys and girls, this is why these message boards have no validity. "the deicing fluid from PANC drains into lake hood" where do you guys get this crap? I love the smart ass comment about the frozen lake hood. Dude, its frozen solid. Are you on something? Do you really think that us "americans" are that caviler about polution? Have you been to Bejing or anywhere in India lately? Take a step back and think with some sense. Geez:ugh:

BusyB
22nd Jan 2009, 19:43
Cessna,
Just tell me where the de-icing/anticing fluid goes. Places like YYZ recycle their fluid, charge extra for that and then re-sell it to the airlines. Does PANC have an unfillable resevoir of used fluid. I think not.

Tell me exactly what they do with it and I will stand corrected but until then I'll beleive what I was told by the staff working there.:ok:

Cessna120
22nd Jan 2009, 19:45
I'll tell you what, I am working a trip through there in about three days, I will ask directly and let you know but I can assure you, It is NOT dumped into the environment. Really? come on, :sad:

BusyB
5th Feb 2009, 18:06
Cessna,
Please tell what you found out about PANC de-icing?
Rgds:confused:

Cessna120
5th Feb 2009, 22:56
Ok there hot shot, keep your pink panties on. When I got there it was 3am, I had been on the airplane 23 hours, I had the start of the flu and just didnt feel like taking the time to ask. Not to mention deicing was not in service. WX was real nice. I promise, I will ask so your little pink panties dont get all bunched up. I promise though there big guy, it does NOT go into lake hood. You really must think us "americans" us "john waynes" are really that stupid. Tell me something, does what your saying even make sense to you? Considering how nasty that fluid is?

Geez homes, lighten up. When I find out, you'll find out there little "buddy"

Cessna120
5th Feb 2009, 23:10
BusyB,

I totally owe you an apology. Holy Crap, I just got off the phone with a buddy of mine that is involved in field mx up there. To my extreme disappointment, you are correct. I am shocked! and frankly angry, it does infact drain into the lake, in a dilluted form but non the less, in the lake. I was totally wrong and am big enough man to admit it. Im shocked, that fluid is really really bad, Its my understanding that they are in the process of evaluating alternatives, such as recycling it which I wouldnt tollerate anything less. Its also my understanding that the EPA will be putting new rules in affect this year that will stop this.

You were right, I was wrong, however I still think you where pink panties, MADE IN CHINA.

Good call O'le chap. One for the queen.

Airbubba
5th Feb 2009, 23:15
Best de-icing ever, in my opinion, Anchorage.

They do a terrific job with the runways as well.

BusyB
6th Feb 2009, 02:36
No sweat Cessna, I've spent a lot of time in Anc and like the place. I was given my info by our ground staff there so I was interested to know if they were wrong. It is disgraceful when you hear all the talk about the environment in Alaska, but I suppose it is called Ted Stevens Int and he's famous for telling the truth.

I'd hate to disappoint you in anything else you thought so I'll go looking for Pink Pants right away.:ok:

repariit
6th Feb 2009, 02:46
Cessna120,

Could you find out if they de-ice with ethylene glycol or propylene glycol?

The former is really bad news, lethal to animals drinking it, and the later is much less of a problem. As you might guess the better one costs more, but could be a quick fix before a proper recycle solution can be arranged.

Carbon Bootprint
6th Feb 2009, 17:48
If the earlier report of PANC planning to route used deicer fluid to Knik Arm instead of Lake Hood is correct, it doesn't sound like they're interested in a "proper recycle solution." :(

Let's hope they are at least using propylene glycol.

Weapons_Hot
9th Feb 2009, 11:11
I have to agree - hard to beat ANC de-icing guys. I think Pegasus Aviation has about 90% of the customers (airlines) in ANC, apart from Alaska Airlines (AS). I recall it took about 9 minutes, whoa to go, and departed with about 6 minutes to spare on the hold-over expiry time.

As for the Type IV fluid - I remember a couple of weeks ago I used Kilfrost ABC-S. The specs are:

Products and Services E-mail RSS

Type IV Aircraft Deicing/Anti-Icing Fluid -Kilfrost ABC-S
Cryotech Deicing Technology
Kilfrost ABC-S is a propylene glycol Type IV aircraft deicing/anti-icing fluid

Details
Kilfrost ABC-S is a propylene glycol Type IV aircraft deicing/anti-icing fluid. ABC-S meets and exceeds FAA approved specification AMS 1428C, and is approved for use by all major aircraft manufacturers. ABC-S has the longest holdover performance in all snow conditions over competitive products, superior sprayability, long-term fluid stability, and excellent fluid dryout and elimination. ABC-S was developed by Kilfrost Limited in Haltwhistle, England, and is now manufactured and supplied in North America by Cryotech Deicing Technology. Please see the product MSDS for additional information.
Fact Sheet
BENEFITS
Propylene glycol based SAE Type IV aircraft deicing/anti-icing fluid
Meets FAA approved specification AMS 1428C
Approved by all major aircraft manufacturers
Used throughout Europe and Asia since 1997
Manufactured in North America by Cryotech Deicing Technology
Easy to apply with existing equipment
PERFORMANCE
Long holdover performance in all snow conditions
Lowest Operational Use Temperature (LOUT) is -28C (-18.4F)
Superior sprayability - lack of foam during application
Fluid dryout and elimination exceed AMS 1428C requirements
Long term fluid stability
Wide viscosity range
APPLICATION
Critical Surfaces: 1.0 - 1.5 litres per m2 (1.0 - 1.5 mm)
ENVIRONMENT
Toxicity: LC50 (freshwater fish) 1414 mg/L (OECD
203, 96h)
LC50 (daphnia) 1131 mg/L (OECD, 202, Part 1, 48h)
EC10 (bacteria) >10,000 mg/L (DIN 38412, Part 8, 16h)
Ecological: Fully biodegradable - 90% in five days (OECD 301E)
Classified as non-hazardous

I guess that the environmental statement covers dumping the used Type IV into Lake Hood. I would hate to see what the fish look like after spending the summer/winter in the pond :eek:

VFD
10th Feb 2009, 02:15
I guess that the environmental statement covers dumping the used Type IV into Lake Hood. I would hate to see what the fish look like after spending the summer/winter in the pond

You would have to eat the fish fresh--they won't freeze:eek:

Propylene Glycol is found in soft drinks, cake mixes and about any other food that requires a sweet taste. Obviously safe for human consumption.

That being said it still would seem to make sense to capture runoff from the de-icing pad, filter and reconcentrate for reuse. Obviously the cost of fresh chemical is still cheaper than the capital outlay for recycling or it would have been done sooner than later.

BusyB
10th Feb 2009, 13:47
VFD,
Strange comment you make. The quantities in manufactured food are rigorously controlled unlike the drainage into Lake Hood.:confused: