Market flooded with experienced pilots makes the pimps happy

[Birdy767]

Once again most of the airlines take advantage of this disaster to drag our job down... How many of us did spend years on the left hand seat, building experience in a professional environment and are now forced to accept a right hand seat and start again from the beginning? Last one I heard: Form the F/O to fly in the left seat only for a few months then send them back in the right??? What about the"pay to fly scheme"? What about a move to the middle east or the far east when you are well established with your family and have made plans? Please post your point of view and your current position

[RAT 5]

Just to widen the discussion a little: many airlines have gone bust recently. Type rated pilots on the market. Yet strangely I hear that some airlines are recruiting cadets rather than experience. This can only be for financial reasons. Cadets pay for themselves and work for lower wages. Moral? No. Satisfying for shareholders? Probably. So what is the truth from those job hunting.

[mona lot]

Its true, here in the UK we have people paying airlines/FTOs to sit in the RHS on public transport flights.

[RSFTO]

It is all over the world, not only in uk. Full of s____T pilots who pay to work. I wonder why their captains do not flank them. We pilots as a job are finished by these full of s____T

[dustyprops]

Everybody has a choice and if people wanna pay to fly or just fly for free then of course airlines are gonna welcome them with open arms, it makes perfect financial sense for the airlines. If these guys can afford to work with no wages then good for them, let them get on with it. Would I do it? No f*&#%ing way, but thats just me. I don't however think there should be some campaign against people who choose to do it, they are free to do as they please.

[wild goose]

Settle down fellas
We will go thru a tough period but when the upswing comes - the last pilot shortage will look like a joke compared to whats coming, and the reasons are:

1) Large scale expected retirements in major airlines of senior flt crew over the next 5 yrs.
2) Banks in Europe and USA are not giving loans for flt training, therefore fewer new students.
3) A perception has developed that this is a hi-risk industry in terms of job security - fewer are attracted to the profession.
4) Low and slow return for a very high cost of investment.
5) Airlines cutting T&C of flight crew make for a less appealing alternative to engineering, law, medicine, etc

Flight schools in the US are struggling already, and there are those that have ceased struggling. For good.

All this means that greener pastures are ahead - we've just got to pull through this mess.

[australiancalou]

IFALPA is strong enough to make the rules isn't it?
Why not asking as a Worldwide regulation for the airlines to make a full type rating for new joiners eventhough they are allready type rated at airline own expenses with no opportunity to pay them on a lower scale.
That would mean a type rating is only valid for the Airline you are working for.
This would be good also for Airlines as pilots would not leave so easily and only for better salary and T&Cs.
Only the best airlines would attract the best people and this would be also as good for new joiners (no type to pay for) than for experienced pilots (priority because of shorter training).
Just a dream...:rolleyes:

[Reluctant737]

The reason for airlines taking on cadets as opposed to exp type rated guys is simple - the experienced guys will piss off at the drop of a hat once the economy improves, the cadets probably won't.

The extra income doesn't hurt either.

Ad :ok:

[Gnirren]

People starting out in this career think, "It's ok, I'll take the paycut, I'll pay my way at first then when I have the hours I'll get in with a proper company and be set for life".

I have news for you lads, the "proper companies" will most likely be gone by that time, replaced by moneygrubbing and morally void machines that give you zero respect. Why not, you spent your career up until that point being a prostitute.

Time flies when you're having fun, before you know it you'll be 40+ getting fired and looking for a job in India to feed your family watching your kids grow up via postcards, while the tax man sifts through your creative accounting for the past 10 years.

Think it can't happen ;)

[cheesycol]

I dunno, I suggest it might be the cadet that buggers off post haste. As has been mentioned already, it's a free world and those paying for TRs and flying, whilst either dumb, loaded or both, shouldn't be treated differently. It's our unions that should be doing something about this and Balpa is, disappointingly, remaining very quiet on this issue. We need to lobby our reps and managers. This WILL drag our conditions down. The TCX accident report with the self funded FO at the controls makes for an illuminating half hour.

[King Halibut]

Wild Goose is spot on.
Only fly in the ointment I can see will be the price of oil when demand picks up.
But I'm sure that won't stem the growth by a huge amount.

My 757/737 outfit has hired recently and the amount of CV's received is mental.
All experience guys with stacks of hours too.

But like Goose said ... when the market picks up again it'll be a bun fight :}

[Birdy767]

Hi Gnirren,

I think it's happening NOW. (at least in Europe for what I'm concerned) Without giving any name, look what happened in the UK, France, Italy, Spain... All the majors got they "low cost" ("below average T&C") branch which is probably going to be the of the airline's trunk within a few years.
Who knows a financial manager who really cares for their crew? := (crew who, by the way, "move" a hundred millions aircraft from A to B!) BUT I am sure that they love to show up like being the Heroes of the industry every time they launch a saving plan. Normal as it's worth for they pay slip's promotion. Apart from a chief pilot, DO, Training, we rarely (except when the ship sinks) receive encouragement's letter from a "top" executive even tough we fly at the optimum level for 10 hours, fly a perfect constant descend, do our best for the on time departure figures... A few people actually rule the game and even if thousands decide to strike, it doesn't make any difference...(UK) So what are the options???

[Guttn]

Wild goose, yes indeed good and valid points. BUT you also have to fit into the equation that airlines actually need paying passengers in order to survive:sad:. So as long as the general public is scared about the economy, and tightening their travel schedules and vacations, we might be in for a slow ride down a bumpy, dusty road:uhoh:.

Gnirren, we`re on the same page:ok:

To all wannabes;
If you want to pay for flying that`s great. Join a flying club or buy yourself an airplane and enjoy yourself:ok:. If you, on the otherhand, want to be a professional pilot (getting paid, and getting paid well), then do not accept "kind offers" of employment, provided you have to pay for a rating and/or training/hours and such. This only deminishes the possibilities of getting good T&Cs later on.

[Afinehelmet]

I've joined this debate before and I maintain now, as I did back then, the problem isn't the wannabees. It's us "older, wiser" heads.

The moment the companies started charging for training, the "established" pilots should have seen the decrease in T's and C's for all of us coming soon. Not to mention the "flood" of new pilots on the market and market forces dictate, the more of a commodity is available, the less it costs. A "withdrawl of labour" when all this started would have nipped all this nonsense in the bud.

But now, just take a look at what MOL at RYR is doing, flooding the market with lots of cadet 737 pilots, thus reducing the costs of the right hand seat. That in turn will then spread to the left hand seat as guys accept lower wages than the next man in order to get the job that five of us are all fighting for.

If, back when all this started, the established guys had fought instead of just laying down and accepting this because "it doesn't affect me", then we wouldn't be in this pickle that we're in now.

Pilots (allegedly) are some of the most clever, intellectual people around. I'd also include self serving and very, very, very short sighted. We only have ourselves to blame for this mess and only we as a pilot group can fix it. The wannabees aren't even in this industry yet. How the hell can they fix it? It's up to us.

[jkl]

Ironic really how times have changed for a while it was all about experience & you didn't even get a look in if you didn't have multi engine multi crew time but now all the experienced guys are being overlooked in favour of cadets!

It just shows really the airlines are run by beancounters who have no real regard for crew experience & given a choice I'm sure they would love to ditch the experienced crews as they are the timed served & more expensive ones :ugh:

I do agree though in the next aviation boom I think the airlines will struggle with getting crews although with the number of crews on the market that time will be a long way off :sad:

[Birdy767]

I TOTALLY agree with you Afinehelmet! That's what we (pilots) are...

Now to act together we can't even go trough one of our Union as they normally represent all of us. I mean wannaB, retired guys,...

And funny enough: On one side you have the wannaB who pay to fly and on the other the side retired pilots who keep hunting for job.

However, I understand that soon or later we have been or we will be facing the same situation: Build up some experience or Pay the bills.

[4star]

I wonder if a 73 rating is a good idea at the moment even for those cadets with Ryanair. Either they will have to stay with the company for years on a reduced salary or they will try and leave whereupon they will find they are in a market with a mass of very experienced pilots.

[nuclear weapon]

Relax guys its a law of nature what goes up must come down. A couple of months ago oil was trading at $147 a barrel today its hovering around forty. thatys a drop of almost 70%. I remember about two years ago some commentators saying on tv that the days of $50 a barrel was never going to come back well here we are.
People will always travel especially here in west Africa where I'm based shame we dont have a national airline.Its only a matter of time before the airlines start recruiting again.

[smith]

Wild goose

The retirement bulge has been around for years, never really materialises into anything.

Job security ain't gonna put any wannabe off, if they are prepared to spend thousands and fly for free, getting fired won't really be the worst thing that happens. Same with reduced t&c's.

When the recession ends there will still be a stream of wannabe's getting churned out bent over with their trouser's and jockey's at their ankles.

[Doug the Head]

When the recession is over, the terms and conditions (unilaterally imposed of course) offered by most airlines will be the equivalent to flipping burgers at a well know 'Scottish' fast food restaurant.

Especially the Low costs will smell blood and will want to "drive down costs for the benefit of the consumer" (read: increase the CEO's bonus whilst undercutting the few remaining decent companies!) by further milking their poorly/un-unionized workforce.

Just look how much they got away with during the good years, now try to project that trend vector into the future. :\

Quite honest, if I lose my job I'm thinking about quitting aviation altogether if it means working for another low cost airline. Screw it! Let some other idiot pay for his type rating, work his b@lls off in a dry pressurized aluminium tube, feeding on uneatable crew food, working crazy hours in order to enjoy a lousy pension after 40 years of lining the CEO's pockets with share options. :}

Or am I too negative here...? ;)

[Flare-Idle]

Doug

Do you really think, you will be treated better outside aviation ? No matter where you go, the sum of the *hit is everywhere the same...

F.I.

[King Halibut]

Doug, you get crew food? wow :}

[Sciolistes]

working crazy hours in order to enjoy a lousy pension after 40 years of lining the CEO's pockets with share options.
You ain't seen crazy hours until you've tried a non-aviation job that does pay even a half decent pension. Making people do more for less is general business practice and something the airlines picked up on rather later. As somebody who has come from a successful non-aviation career into a low-cost and flying 70 hours a month I can say that I'm enjoying life again and actually have more time with the family.

The job security situation is precarious everywhere.

Agree with you on the food, like my old job, I take my own food to work :)

[Doug the Head]

No offense here, but I think you folks are looking at it too much from an Anglo/American point of view where everybody (both management and staff) only look at the short term gains (i.e. money) to be made.

I'm talking about job satisfaction which affects the way I feel, which thus affects my health and which NO amount of money can compensate. Yes, I understand you need money to live, but maybe I'm on old fashioned fool when I try to look at the bigger picture then just money.

Besides, taking out a loan to pay for training and a type rating and then earning "big bucks" of which half goes to paying back the loan doesn't sound like a great deal to me.

Sure, you can go to a bank and do it again (!) the Anglo/American way and leverage yourself by showing them your payslip to take out even more loans to finance a lifestyle such as cars/house/vacations etc, but I think those days are definitely O V E R!
[Furthermore, the domino effect of those kind of people losing their jobs (and therefore stop spending and defaulting on loans) will accelerate the economic mess we're in, but that's probably a too European point of view and a different topic altogether.]

The boom is over and the bust is rapidly approaching, so be ready to grab your ankles and brace for the worst!

[Gnirren]

It's almost a guarantee that the job of flying will go the way of taxi drivers and locomotive drivers. The train drivers used to be one step below God himself back in those days, now not so much.

As aircraft get more sophisticated flying will become increasingly easier on the crew. At some point it will simply be too technical and controlled of an environment that "anyone" will do up front. We'll have clearances on-screen that only require you to push a confirm button, I don't think it'll be long before we have planes with 4 buttons. T/O, cruise, land and emergency. We're being squeezed out of the flight deck gents, that's the way it is. It'll get easier to fly, people will be prepared to pay less and less for it and new guys keep lining up around the block to sell their soul for a chance at work. Most John Does refer to pilots as "nothing more than bus drivers" anyway, soon enough they'll be right too. We can talk on and on about the human factor and safety, how some decisions need people's skills and nobody would ever fly planes without pilots but ultimately it'll be a self-serve machine in the back, and some low-pay techie on the flight deck who can push the override switch when the 8 independent control systems all fail at once. We're being invented out of our seats that's just a fact.

Combine this with declining salaries, benefits and job security of 5 years a pop, moving to a different country to support yourself, getting divorced, never finding the time to see your family. To be honest I'm starting to lose sight of what makes this job interesting to begin with. Then again, other industries seem much the same these days. Maybe we're just collectively shafted by the man ;) with longer hours and less to show for it. Not like the 50s when one parent could stay at home, could afford a home and a car on one pay check. Now you have to take out huge loans that many never repay, just to find a roof over your head.

Life was better in the old days eh :p

[Reluctant737]

As aircraft get more sophisticated flying will become increasingly easier on the crew. At some point it will simply be too technical and controlled of an environment that "anyone" will do up front. We'll have clearances on-screen that only require you to push a confirm button, I don't think it'll be long before we have planes with 4 buttons. T/O, cruise, land and emergency. We're being squeezed out of the flight deck gents, that's the way it is. It'll get easier to fly, people will be prepared to pay less and less for it and new guys keep lining up around the block to sell their soul for a chance at work. Most John Does refer to pilots as "nothing more than bus drivers" anyway, soon enough they'll be right too. We can talk on and on about the human factor and safety, how some decisions need people's skills and nobody would ever fly planes without pilots but ultimately it'll be a self-serve machine in the back, and some low-pay techie on the flight deck who can push the override switch when the 8 independent control systems all fail at once. We're being invented out of our seats that's just a fact.I'm not so sure the passengers on the United Airways flight would have agreed with you there!

I do acknowledge your point and I do believe there to be a certain degree of validity to it, but I firmly disagree with your opinion regarding sticking one guy up front to monitor things (just stating it in its bluntest form, not incinuating single trackedness on your part) - my reasoning behind this is I don't think there would be too many people out there willing to travel on an aircraft configured as such, the media would be all "What if he suffers a stroke?" this and - more likely in this day and age - "What if the single guy up there is a terrorist, there's noone to stop him!" that, I don't know, I just think there would be enough uproar over single pilot ops in the common airline industry (not taking into account routine SPO) that most of us use, let alone eliminating the human element altogether.

What I do find alarming, however, is when you look at the big picture and examine raw data charts displaying population growth, traffic levels, third world development and so on so forth over the past fifty years, it's all increasing at a highly exponential rate - where will we be in a FUTHER fifty years? What will become of the aviation industry? I just hope the next generation (when I have a family of my own, when my friends have kids etc) aren't made to suffer for our selfishness and lack of ability to take care of our own planet. I know it's perhaps an immoral thing to say, but some part of me is glad I was born in this era and not in another fifty years time. The world's gone crazy!

Anyway, where's my scotch, that always numbs the pain :p

Regards, Ad

[Birdy767]

The point is not "Do we enjoy the job?" but "Where is this job going?"

Like you, I have been working in a completely different industry. Then like many of us, I worked hard, took difficult career's decisions, made family's choices and invested lots of money to get a license.

Today, money makers who got enough cash to launch an airline, just have one idea: Make profits profits and profits. Fair enough but "the way" they achieve their business, is, for us pilots, unacceptable. Be sure that behind each new start-up, there is a business plan hiding a "trick" to make huge returns. (shares, subsidiary company,...) Most of them don't care of their employees. I can give you lots of examples that I've been confronted with during the last 10 years.

So when we decided to become pilot it was for the pleasure of flying a plane, enjoying great destinations, making friends,... but certainly not to deal with those Pimps.

[INNflight]

Flying is supposed to be fun, that's why I pay for flying at lo-co's, the chicks like it and daddy keeps me afloat in the meantime.




:E

[Birdy767]

By pimps, I mean people who manage to accumulate hundred millions of debts to run their business and then set up their own package before declaring the airline Game Over. It happens every year and at the end of the day you always see the same faces re-starting a new ambitious start-up.

eg: (and that's just an example) You start your Airline "A" tomorrow with a fleet of 5 A330. Let's put an average monthly lease of 450.000 $ / aircraft. So you should expect a cost of 5 x 450.000 = 2.250.000 $ but because I m your good friend (if you see what I mean) my leasing company "B" will give a "better";) price: 500.000 $ x 5 = 2.500.000 $. Every month, you pay me an extra 250.000 $ compared to what you should have paid. At the end of the year, let's say when you decide to go bankrupt, we meet again and share the jackpot. Sounds fair and really legal :bored:; init? Of course it also works with a fleet of 50 aircraft.
Having said that, I know that a few honest people work hard to set up an airline but they are passionate and must not be confound...

[Doug the Head]

Birdy767, by 'those pimps' I assume you mean the people who went out on a limb and took massive risks to set up a company and, yes, make money.OK, granted, please don't forget that we (i.e. the prostitutes) also took massive risks and had to pay for our own training and also pay 'protection money' to our pimps by buying type ratings and bonds. That definitely balances things out a bit more, don't you think so?

Again, like Birdy767 said, the average manager/CEO (a few brave entrepreneurs exempted) just 'walk away' with a golden parachute if things don't work out as planned.

Why airlines do de-rated/flex take offs, but have no problem planning humans to their maximum annual/monthly/daily limits (even without decent crew food!) is still beyond me. The only conclusion I can derive is that an engine's life is more important than a human one. :sad:

[The Real Slim Shady]

Why airlines do de-rated/flex take offs, but have no problem planning humans to their maximum annual/monthly/daily limits (even without decent crew food!) is still beyond me. The only conclusion I can derive is that an engine's life is more important than a human one.

:ok:Brilliant analogy Doug:ok:

[MainDude]

Supply & demand. Plain & simple. Evolve or die.

[gyni]

The (lack of ) intelligence levels of some of the people trying to enter this industry really is becoming a concern. It is a JOB. You should be paid to do it. 'I would fly an airliner for free for a year and also do another job to get money' - I am lost for words, I really am. Airline management must be crying into their champagne with laughter.

[Doug the Head]

I know it sounds really snobbish, but it's really turning into a blue collar job, also attracting pilots with a blue collar background. These people only stare at the salary, compare it to their friends who have factory or mediocre office jobs and think they've won the lottery.

In the old days, flying was for the elite. Pilots sort of belonged to this elite and enjoyed a great lifestyle with fantastic salaries without working too bloody hard, hence for example today's outdated FTD limits. It's an relique from a glorious past. Nobody was paying for type ratings 15-20 years ago, but with the advent of 'cheap/easy credit,' flying became more accessible but it also attracted a different kind of pilot.

To make matter worse, in a well meant effort to not bite the hand that feeds them this wonderful salary, these next generation (highly leveraged!) pilots now think it's best to not be too militant in their (traditional blue collar) support to unions with a dramatic effect on the lifestyle, T&C's and unknown long term health effects.

It's the worst of both worlds really.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm all for "equal opportunities" and I really respect that a lot of people worked very very hard to get where they are today, but in today's shrinking job market it can only mean one thing for our future T&C's: down!

As MainDude correctly said, it's all about supply/demand and evolution. It's therefore that I'm seriously contemplate 'evolving' into another industry, leaving my seat for some other idiot to endure their future employer's "costs saving measures" and "type rating schemes" merely for the privilege of pressing some buttons on a flight deck.

[Gnirren]

I'm with you Doug, I still think it's a decent enough job but that's not the issue. My question is will this be a good career until I retire and on that I'm still deciding. I'd need to bail pretty soon to catch up in a more interesting field of work but it is very tempting.

I call BS on the idea that airliners will never fly on automation, flying at all was once "impossible". Plus, and this is just a thought, what does 99% of all NTSB reports conclude? That's right, pilot error. We may have a fantabulous brain that can sort out situations that a machine couldn't, but had the machine been in charge to begin with the problem might not have occurred. We assume we're indispensable because we think of it as taking the current system and simply yanking the crew out of it. Of course that wouldn't work. But if you designed the whole aparatus from gate to gate to function with as few people as possible then you could probably get rid of us with enough fail-safes and technology.

A matter of time.

[Doug the Head]

Just compare aircraft to trains for which technological requirements which are a lot less complex. How many fully automated trains are currently in service? Not that many, and the ones in service are only used on smaller routes. There will always be some limited form of human input necessary, especially for non-normals that required some limited 'out of the box' thinking. It would be virtually impossible to design an automated aircraft to take care of all kinds of possible scenarios. Just look at that recent ditching in the Hudson river in NY.

Even if it was possible to design such an aircraft, don't forget that for both airlines and aircraft manufacturers, it's probably a lot cheaper to have a human pilot in the front instead of just an automated pilot.

The key word here is liability!

[smith]

If they haven't even managed to make all trains run without drivers (how hard can that be seeing as they just start / stop, go faster / go slower on a guidance system better than any autopilot) it's hardly likely that commercial aircraft are going to operate without pilots anytime soon.


Try changing terminals at LGW, LAS, ORD, MCO or traveling along the Las Vegas strip on the monorail and then make that comment.

As people say we are merely train driver's now. In the days of steam trains and boats they originally started with the pullman class and 1st class and every wee boy wanted to be a train driver, nowadays a train driver is really seen as working class.

Same with aviation, originally it was exclusive and a pilot was a god. Just like the train driver the mystery has gone and now we travel on flying pubs. The cudos of being a pilot has gone and we are mere train drivers. And soon like the train at LGW we could disappear.

[davinchi]

Doug the head and gyni,
What a load of pompous tosh. Why don't you both stop being so pretentious and get a life! :rolleyes:

D

[seat 0A]

Lots of young pilots without jobs. Even willing to pay for flying. Airlines in trouble.
What do we, the pilots do? We move our retirement age up 5 or 10 years! (ok,ok, it`s not only our own doing, but it`s widely supported among the elderly pilots)
These are the times that companies should give incentives to people to retire early. And these are the times that pilots should take those oportunities!
That way we create new jobs for young pilots and we lower the costs of the companies, while not losing too much money (if we negotiate it cleverly).

There is a real relation between this topic and retirement age!

[australiancalou]

Maybe pilots should invest in their own business and buy their airlines instead of paying for type ratings given for free by Airbus or Boeing for each new aircraft order.
Don't wait to work on World's minimum salary basis to take control of it...:}
The value of the Airline depends on the duration of the strike.

Just kidding:ok:

[MainDude]

There is a real relation between this topic and retirement age!

Agreed - to the travelling public and airline management, the difference between a captain with 8 years experience vs one with 25 years experience in terms of the cost/benefit, is becoming increasingly difficult to justify.

The usefulness 'curve' definitely flattens and then declines. Each year's pay increase does not bring with it any measurable increase in productivity. Subjectively, as an FO, I feel more comfortable with most 40 year-old captains than with those in their 50's or 60's - especially when it gets tricky.

Approximately a third of an airline's cost is payroll, so keeping that aligned to the market is critical for the long-term survival of airlines. Economics have no concept of ego or prestige. The golden age of air travel has passed.

I'd be interested to see what the rest of you think - perhaps I'm missing something. Perhaps Capt Sullenberger's performance may change public opinion - although, by the sound of things (media says he made the radio calls), so he may have been the Pilot Monitoring :8. Respect though - to all involved.

[Guava Tree]

No matter the captain was handling or non handling pilot, you can be sure that he, as captain, either originated or approved the decision to alight along the river.
If subsequent energy analysis will show that the aircraft could in fact have glided into Teterboro, then the course towards driverless flight will continue unimpeded, or even be enhanced.
On the other hand if it is proved that alighting on the river was the only reasonably safe option then the march of computerisation will continue but maybe be delayed by a few years.Computers have to be taught about options for alighting on rivers. (Aside) maybe many humans too would not have considered and actioned this option.
When we as SLF buy a ticket we have idea what our aircraft will be.But last minute changes can mean it is not Boeing but Airbus. Old timers like to say "If it ain't Boeing I ain't going" but no refund and they don't go?
You buy a ticket, nothing to say how many human crew, monkey crew and dog crew."Gubmint allowed the flight so never mind" we are going to say. "Can't get refund for this anyway." "Maybe it will be OK"
In the long run the best that "operating" pilots can hope for is a laptop in the cheapest economy seat. Better than my nightmares where I have only a piece of string to pull and the view out of an economy window.

[mac76]

I flew props for many years in malaysia,png,australia and kazaksthan,companies offered me jet job in turkey and india but i had to pay for the first 500 hrs( so i refused to pay) ,finally i found a job on jet but within 12 mths the company sacks all foreign pilots and now back to searching for work ,u either have the right passport or u work for nothing or u forced back to props ,its a bad situation in airlines unless u fortuneate to get job in your home country with regular airline.
With the amount of new guys paying for line training its a difficult sitiuation,lets hope jobs become more plentiful as the salaries and conditions are eroding badly every day.
W:confused:hen you are replaced by a 22 year old with 250 hrs experience you wonder what am i doing here the passengers will freak out to see this low level times of newbies.
good luck guys keep studying your QRH ok

[Private jet]

Blimey.
Have all you people only just discovered that 99% of human beings, be it airline management, your collegues, or indeed your ex wife, are just out for themselves??:ugh:

Remember, if you feel the world is out to do you down, Its not... 99.9% of people don't give a sh*t what happens to you one way or the other! They do, however, care about what happens to themselves and their family. There is a difference.

[no sponsor]

If you look at the company 'Stagecoach' and read what Mr Souter did to salaries and benefits of his staff, then the same is being applied to airlines. As staff costs are such a big proportion of overall costs, it is an easy target. Cadets are routinely now sent to the front of the queue, bypassing those with more experience (Mr Souter fired the experienced drivers and replaced them with cheaper,new ones). Eventually it will bottom out, but the type of individual attracted to the profession changes from, say a university graduate to someone with A-levels only to someone with GCSEs and so on.

I always find it amusing to see people say that they will work for free and then join a proper airline which will pay them. Or perhaps just depressing to see that such individuals were given licences.

[Guava Tree]

Thans for your post Private Jet. I never thought about it like that before.
I have always taken it personally, but now perhaps I can make a different perspective.
Question is should I continue sticking pins in the sensitive parts of the photos of my perceived enemies?

[INNflight]

Perhaps Capt Sullenberger's performance may change public opinion - although, by the sound of things (media says he made the radio calls), so he may have been the Pilot Monitoring

Not to mention the f/o has 20+ years with the airline too, so not really a newbie (not possible in mainline US carriers anyways I guess) :=

[Me Myself]

Remember those DHL guys in Bagdad who landed their A300 without flight controls ?? I just saw a piece on Tv where NASA landed an MD 11 using a kind of auto pilot controlling the engine induced effect just like the crew did................only of course a lot lot better. It's the same control panel on the F/D and seeing the plane land, you would never guess it's lost all flight controls.
The FAA apparently didn't judge it necessary to have it installed on aircrafts due to high costs. That's now.
Tommorrow ??? Well folks, just like any profession, our is going down the drain, thanks to technology...................and frankly for the better.
Air travel has after all become a lot safer.
Think of medecine. Would any of you like to land on an operating table let's say...........1930's style ??? or even 1960 ?? Surely no !!
This job will become more and more of the pit as far as working conditions and pay...........and think of health with horrific stories about chromosome alterations.
I would never recommend this job today and I had a lot of fun doing it for many years. It's just become too unbalanced these days and pilots shortage or not............it'll never go back to the bonanza it once was.
Time to move on to something else, what I don't know, if you're looking for a rewarding job..............if there 's any.

[Doug the Head]

George Carlin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI5EY5kqiBU&feature=related) (Warning: strong language!) sums it up nicely, as usual: They don't want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers, obedient workers. People who are just smart enoug to run the machines and do all the paperwork, and just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly sh!ttier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours the reduced benefits, the end of overtime, and the vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go and collect it...

[cupoftea]

being 20 years behind the wheel and another 20-25 years to go, but recently layed off, unable to find a hard commitment from any employer after two months of trying I am wondering what life would be outside of aviation.

when things come up it will be on the other side of the planet or places I do not want my family to live. Then again I do not want to drag my family all around the world when they are happy here, or go myself and only see them via skype.... It just is not worth it any more in my opinion.

The whole reason why I went into this job was the love of flying.
nowadays it all comes down to money, pleasure is gone since the doors shut after 9-11.

allthough being in my 40-ties is not that old, many companies prefer a young guy early 20 ties and 1500-2000 hrs behind the wheel for a left seat position.first of all he payed his typerating and secondly he is easy to work with, does not ask difficult questions being eager and inexperienced.

we older folks are seen as expensive and difficult. Experience is not an issue. Until recently when this chap put his airbus nicely on the river...and the world is full of credit for him being so experienced. so perhaps there is hope... but as the time and money is running out I might well have flown my last flight a few months ago as I am looking outside the av-world allready to make a living..and perhaps see the wife and the kids a bit more:)

[Birdy767]

Real Life Boeing 737 First Officer for FREE! on eBay, also, Other, Everything Else (end time 23-Jan-09 23:22:23 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Real-Life-Boeing-737-First-Officer-for-FREE_W0QQitemZ200298673487QQihZ010QQcategoryZ88433QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)


Seriously???

[AF jockey]

I have been advising youngsters on this career for a long time. I used to report it is a hard load to reach a pilot seat on a commercial airplane but it is worth the sacrifice.

Today, everytime I'm asked for some input about the career I basically reply "forget about it unlesse you join a cadets programme with a major airline or easyjet (not even Ryanair)". Period. I probably sound narrow-minded or too rigid but I just don't want to be at the source of deep failures for real people. To date I have avoided 3 boys from rushing into the career. They're now happy students in business and IT. They're not paying extraordinary amounts and will get hunted down soon for good money, not for peanuts and make-believes. No Type Ratings at your own expense, no hours building on 737s, no major loans worth 3 years of salary... This is the end of this job as we know it. Tough **** for airlines when the economy kicks in again but what's the point, really ????

Guys like MOL hate our guts and take away all sort of recognition (see his remarks on what sort of drama queens we all are). We pay massive amounts towards TRs that put our lives and those of our families' at a level of financial risk CEOs would not consider a second for their own company. But we, pilots, should accept to take on that risk...The job itself has worsened beside T&Cs : security checks, intensifying rosters hence challenging health, etc...Considering all that, how can one advise this career to anyone ?

To those rookies reading these lines, if you're hesitating between pilot and something else, try cadet programmes with the big ones. If you fail, just forget it.

[dartagnan]

1-if you think banks will continue to give 200'000$ to a wanabees for cpl,mcc, type rating, and block of hours, that' s a big mistake the bank can not afford anymore.

the time of borrowing money with nothing in return is over.

2-ICAO 4 rule is here, you don't speak english, forget this job, do something else, or go first spend 1 year in US or UK to learn english.

what will happen in 2009
: many school will be bust , Oxford included.
TRTO will have problem to run their business as selfsponsore pilots will be rare.


3-india pulled already the plug for the "pay for line training", and other countries will follow.
there won't be any pay to work scheme.


1+2+3= No pilot available very soon...
pilot, airline, bank=not willing to spend money to train pilots, they won't find enough pilot loaded with cash and who has level 4 icao.
:E


f...the airlines!


once obama will be in power, I think the situation will go slightly back to a normal and better situation for everyone.Giving free money for a house or for flight training and then file bankrupt once problems arise is not the solution...:=

[Conan The Barber]

There's never been a pilot shortage and there never will be. There might at times have been a shortage of people with experience, but that's not even a factor anymore.

When the marked improves again, T&Cs will not.

[RAT 5]

I agree with many of the sentiments about the job being dumbed down. Some even say the necessary education is less than it was as technology takes over. It is true that the airlines want yes-men to push their little buttons. What staggers me in this new enviroment is that the main airlines (not just majors) still trot out the same old applicant's characteristics as yester-year. You will haved good higher level education; be dynamic; team player; show leardership and able to motivate and inspire; be good at multi-tasking and respond in stressful situations etc. etc. Then they treat you like little school boys and wonder why you turn into grumpy old men. It would be a big wonder if you didn't. When will HR departments start to balance their recruitment criteria with what they really want? In fact if anyone who truely had all those wonderful qualities, and still wanted to be an airline pilot, I'd be suspicious. Why not use all that talent, develop a career to use them and reward them, then go fly for fun when and where YOU want to, not as some pimply pilot hating rosterer wants.

[RAT 5]

I agree with many of the sentiments about the job being dumbed down. Some even say the necessary education is less than it was as technology takes over. It is true that the airlines want yes-men to push their little buttons. What staggers me in this new enviroment is that the main airlines (not just majors) still trot out the same old applicant's characteristics as yester-year. You will haved good higher level education; be dynamic; team player; show leardership and able to motivate and inspire; be good at multi-tasking and respond in stressful situations etc. etc. Then they treat you like little school boys and wonder why you turn into grumpy old men. It would be a big wonder if you didn't. When will HR departments start to balance their recruitment criteria with what they really want? In fact if anyone who truely had all those wonderful qualities, and still wanted to be an airline pilot, I'd be suspicious. Why not use all that talent, develop a career to use them and reward them, then go fly for fun when and where YOU want to, not as some pimply pilot hating rosterer wants.

[space pig]

I agree with AF Jockey who says that he discourages youngsters to become an airline pilot, I exactly do the same.

Unfortunately all this has been caused by a rather selfish group of people with loads of money and willing to spend that money on a typerating, something which should be done by the employer , not the employee.

The result is that companies were all to be willing to accept this. People offering them money(paying for a typerating) to work for them. Think about it, in what other job do people do this?

And yes guys and girls, I say selfish, because you have not only scr#wed it for yourself(pardon my french) but for everybody else, now and in the future. If we had organised ourselves into a worlwide union or so, and consistenly refused this, it would not have happened.

I have refused on several occasions a job offer for this reason, as I think it is against all moral.I would have been way up in my career, but so be it, no regrets. I know 40 year old pilots still paying off their debts, isn't that nuts?

Make a few calculations, you will see that this "investment" is not paying off.

Someone mentioned "love of flying". but you can also do that in a C172 and have another job on the side. Like many I am also considering that same move

I am still rumbling around in turboprops but at least I am making a profit, not sending 50 proc of my money back to the bank.:)

[Mikehotel152]

:eek: Do you know how much it costs to fly for fun in Europe!?

[merlinxx]

Airmen/Airwomen should be recruited by said experienced Aviators, not non Aviator Numpties:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[yokebearer]

The retirement thing is not happening - age discrimination will take care of that. None of us ole geezers are going anywhere till we are all 65 - we can't afford to due to management having destroyed our pensions etc etc.

Tough for the young guys waiting for us to vacate the seat. And no I get no pleasure in having to work till I die.