British Airways Hold Pool News

[ottoVB]

As the BA DEP selection thread seems to be choking up with people discussing the Hold Pool, I think it sensible to begin a new thread dedicated to those who have already passed the selection process and want to discuss any issues relevant to the next stage.

Here's a starter for ten...

When BA stopped giving out course start dates to those in the Hold Pool, the size of the pool (post sim check) grew to a size of (i believe) around 80-90(??). This is clearly huge. A short while ago there was also banter that BA were discussing increasing the length of time one could spend in the pool to eighteen months. Would it be sensible to assume that the company are intentionally allowing the pool to empty to a more sensible level before keeping those that are left by allowing longer in the pool?

Further question: from within the company, is there any news of the number of retirements expected this year?

[air_wolf]

from what i've heard, there are very limited numbers of retirements expected this year. think more info will come out once the results of the annual bid are known, which is due shortly. my own personal opinion is that if the economy stays the way it is there is absolutely no chance of BA taking any people out of the hold pool in 09. think the best to hope for is signs of a slight recovery later in the year followed by a few people being taken on. sit tight and wait for better news in 2010.

[hunterboy]

with respect to retirements, figures of the order of 9 pilots have been mentioned for the last 18 months. Bearing in mind that as more NAPS rather than APS guys retire, I should imagine, that like myself, we will be forced to defer retirement for at least 2 or 3 years to 57/58/59 ish. ie, Don't rely on retiring pilots to create vacancies. I should imagine it will mainly come from expansion in the next few years.

[TopBunk]

very limited numbers of retirements expected this year. think more info will come out once the results of the annual bid are known

I would not rely on this. BA asked us to indicate if we had any intention to retire within he next year to help planning, but we wouldn't be held to it. With Industrial Relations post Openskies in BA, very few people are prepared to give BA any more than the required minimum 3 months (or possibly shoot themselves in the foot in case BA offered some incentive!).

My take on it is that the Annual Bid will reveal little, and if anything underestimate the number of retirements, which even so, will be few. Any interesting aside, is that the first group who could work beyond 55 are now approaching 57, when many forecast they would leave - we shall see. Another 12 months and another 12 pay packets may be too tempting...

[binsleepen]

Just recieved this from Mr Monks

Dear All,Happy New Year, I hope you had an enjoyable festive period. I know I have spoken to a number of you over recent weeks and I said that I would give you an update on the situation here at BA. The last 6 months have been an experience for all of us and I would like to thank you for your patience and understanding whilst we have found our way through these difficult times. I would like to be able to say to you all now, there is clarity as we move forward into 2009 but that is not the case. I do know that no additional pilots will be joining BA before the end of the financial year 2008/09. The commercial flying programme is constantly being reviewed and developed in light of the price of fuel and revenue outlook. Consequently any 'snapshot' of the current plan will change as time goes by. The initial business planning process for the financial year 2009/10 will have come to a conclusion in early February 2009 and out of this, BA will have a Manpower plan that shows the number of pilots required to operate the flying programme and if any recruitment will be required in that financial year. Current indications would suggest that there is unlikely to be any recruitment in the first 6 months of the year but beyond that we are less able to predict. The main issue that most of you have on your minds is the validity of your assessment and time in the holdpool. We have taken the decision to extend this to 18 months and this will be from the day you attended BA for your simulator assessment. If you have any queries then please let me know. I will give you an update as we move towards March 2009.Regards,John.

Oh well at least it is reliable information

All the best

[Vrille]

Binsleepin,

You've been quick off the mark on that one! so you manage to stay awake sometimes?! :ok:
Everybody in the pool seat tight.... hope we'll see the light soon !

Vrille

[Tandemrotor]

Allegedly there were 8 retirements from BA last year. Although a further 25 left to join other airlines, or through sickness etc. The comment about another 12 pay packets being too tempting, is likely to remain absolutely true for the next 6-7 years!

[Jamin20]

It was only sent to 15 on the one I got. Maybe it's being sent in groups because I was thinking the same. Did SSP's get the same extension?

Jamin

[billybuds]

Did SSP's get the same extension?


Yes we did.

[H-D]

There were 28 on my e-mail including me!

[evian]

I too was on the list of 17 but my friends e mail had only 9. We are both in the hold pool from assessement day.

H-D and Jamin20 what is your back ground, same as me or are you military or ssp? Just to help get a picture of overall numbers.

[Birdy767]

Just for info, what's the basic salary for swimming in a pool until they need us?

[Jamin20]

I'm a Flybe prop jockey so non- mil DEP. Ok, on my list there was 16 including me plus one to [email protected]. Is that the 17 you guys made?

[evian]

Not done by rating, think done in a rough order as I know more than a hand full in the pool all with different experience and ratings. My e mail seemed to be people who went for day one around June / July time. Just my observation.

17 Inc me. Not copied to anyone at ba. Though my friends was 9 then 4 copied in I guess to ba personell

[Jamin20]

My interview was 9th July and my email was next to another guy who passed that day

[LSGG]

17 for me.
In the pool since june

[one post only!]

17 on mine and been in the pool since July. A friend of mine also splashed into the pool at the same time (week earlier) as me but his name was not included on my list. So like Jamin/Evian I think the emails are done from the date you passed interview. Attended interview in May.

[Bail out]

The one I received had 13 names on it.

I did my interview mid June 08 ( simulator a week later ) Anyone put in the hold pool before then?

Regards

B.

[Count Bawbag]

Have been told that emails going out. So Monks and his Oxford quislings have succeeded in getting the hold pool extended to 18 months.
Not fair on the guys who were turfed out after 12 months but hey, good for you guys!

[evian]

I know if at least one persons date of entry into hold pool starts in march/April time. He was kind of told to hand his notice in as he was at top of the pool, thankfully he did not and is now still swimming.

[ltn and beyond]

Guys, trying to 2nd guess when things may happen is a very natural thing when your in the pool, but based on the fact the Capt Monks and BA have extended the pool is a indication that things may not move quickly, but he is thinking of you..

Even within the pilot ranks at BA Capts and F/Os questions are being asked of how many and what types are we going to be flying, and do we get our aircraft changes as bid. And these questions are still not anawered, my guess is until the pilot establishment in house is sorted there will not be much recruitment.

End of 2009 would be my guess !!!!

[FMCDU]

9 on mine including 1 @ba.com. SSP- In the pool since April.

[Vrille]

I was browsing PPJN tonight and saw for BA's page:
Job Title: Manager Pilot Recruitment role does not exist at present time 14/Jan/09

Has anyone got any info on this? Has J.M left the role? Has he been pushed aside? Is it a bad sign re: future recruitment?


Vrille

[hunterboy]

There is also a rumour going around that BA has approached BALPA to offer redundancy to the pilots on the 757 fleet.

[ETOPS]

Has anyone got any info on this? Has J.M left the role? Has he been pushed aside? Is it a bad sign re: future recruitment?



JM is now Training Manager 75/76 fleet.

[Stretchwell]

110+ in hold pool including 35+ SSPs.

[no sponsor]

With reference to JM going to another job in BA, the words sinking, ship, and leaving spring to mind.

[757_Driver]

With the news worsening daily, and the country effectively now bankrupt, I'm resigning myself to the fact that BA will not be calling me before late 2010, or 2011 at the earliest, if at all. I'm going to make my plans assuming they will not call, and it will be a very pleasent and welcome surprise if they do, but if an opportunity crosses my path, i'm not going to say "oh, I cant do that in case BA call in the next few months".
Just my tuppenceworth , but I think it is becoming increasingly evident that Gordon and his crooked freinds have lead us down a path that ends in national disgrace and bankrupcy. This isn't a 'recession' this is a once in a lifetime, once in a century catastrophe, and there clearly won't be any meaningful recovery in 6 months time, and I doubt there will ever be a recovery to the halcyon days of rampant consumer spending and $2 = £1, or 1.45 euros to the pound.
I'd love to work for BA and am very pleased to have passed the recruitment, but I think BA will have enough on their plate for the next few years as it is.
They are in a very strong financial position going into all this, possibly one of the strongest in the world, however they are exposed to the UK consumer more than any other major airline, so will unfortunately suffer accordingly. Not really their fault, but thats just the way it is.

[Count Bawbag]

Stop moaning 757 Driver ... I saw you beavering away on the microshat without a sweat while I was getting twitches and a spaz attack! :E
You lot have had an extension which is better than the past lot and I'm sure it'll be OK later in the year for you guys!

[eagerbeaver1]

I failed BA last year and sulked for a week, so to all those who passed I am impressed and hope for poitive news as soon as possible however I have to agree 757driver opinion. Although we never know. It would seem reasonable that whilst the UK is in this extremely peculiar period of financial implosion that recruitment may be frozen. Hopefully BA will keep you chaps in the pool for an extended period.

Good luck.

Count Bawbag - you have cracked me up twice now. Ta.

[StudentInDebt]

There is also a rumour going around that BA has approached BALPA to offer redundancy to the pilots on the 757 fleet.I wonder who they'll get to fly them for the next year and a half then.... :ugh:

[BUS319]

"There is also a rumour going around that BA has approached BALPA to offer redundancy to the pilots on the 757 fleet"


As i'm currently on the fleet I would very grateful to know where you heard this information from as it is my understanding that the fleet will continue to operate until oct 09 when 2 x 757 and 1 longhaul 767 will be stood down. If you could also please post your comment on the BALPA forum to add a bit of integrity to the statement it would be most appreciated.

As for everyone swimming at the moment the internal bids regarding part time/retirement and fleet movement was published today so I hope this will help future pilot needs to be clarified asap. In the mean time I wish you all the best of luck

regards,

[northeast canuck]

As i'm currently on the fleet I would very grateful to know where you heard this information from as it is my understanding that the fleet will continue to operate until oct 09 when 2 x 757 and 1 longhaul 767 will be stood down. If you could also please post your comment on the BALPA forum to add a bit of integrity to the statement it would be most appreciated.

It might have something to do with this quote from today's Telegraph:

BA is also close to a deal to sell 11 second hand 757 aircraft – including some of those earmarked for its new OpenSkies subsidiary flying from Paris and Amstersdam to America – potentially putting OpenSkies' growth plans even further behind schedule.

Full article here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/4315532/Willie-Walsh-risks-wrath-of-BA-unions-at-next-pay-round.html):

[numbnut]

There is also a rumour going around that there will be no more rumours, But ignore it ,it may be just a rumour.J

[beastman787]

I'm a post JOC SSP in the hold pool. I know that there is my course of 8 and another course of 8 behind us. In addition to us there is a substancial number of candidates pre JOC who have also had their pool extended till Feb 2010. This means that there is actually only 16 SSP candidates ready to start Type Ratings, all other candidates will have to do a JOC first.

If BA start to pull from the hold pool, does anyone know if it will be done purely on date of sim check (DEP) and JOC (SSP) or will they preference either type of candidate?

Best of luck to everyone who is swimming.

[kotakota]

oh my G....
Its been 4 years since I was forced to leave BA because I was 55 ( my timing was always crap ) , but the continued degrading of standards in recruitment continues , the lunatics have taken control..................
Yr command of the English language , and arrogance , confirm the general degradation of BA standards in recent years . I have many friends still flying for BA who now hate their job because of the lack of respect shown by their juniors. God forbid that these jumped up t..ts become the BA skippers of the future and continue the general dumbing down of UK society.
To emphasise the problem , one of the biggest culprits has managed to become a recruiter within a year of joining BA from British Midland . God help us all. Be very interesting how these current ' superior' FOs cope with the anarchy when they become skippers having spawned the current disrespectful regime.

[bluepilot]

Respect is earned and not a right! I bet with that attitude you were a "very" respected skipper :yuk::yuk: (sir)

[beastman787]

Kotakota,

Is there any point in posting if you don't have any information relevant to this thread? Any abbreviations I have made in my previous post are well understood by those to whom this thread is relevant to i.e. obviously not you. The abbreviations are also used by British Airways in their correspondance with candidates.

What evidence do you have for 'degrading standards' in recruitment -the spelling and grammar checking of an online forum?

I hope you find something more constructive to do with all your free time.

[sharpclassic]

beastman787,

Before anyone else says anything, and I'm not having a go at you, it may be a idea to bear in mind that when you post, how it may appear to certain people who may be reading. We all need a break somewhere to start our careers, be it at a 'big' airline like BA, a 'medium' one like easyJet or Thomas Cook, a 'smaller' airline like Flybe or maybe, as Im sure MANY people reading will have done, even smaller than that, instructing, flying freight and air taxi.

However, by insinuating that you need the job more than others just because they have a 'career to fall back on', I do believe you are showing a massive disrespect to those people who may have lost their jobs at the likes of XL, Silverjet, Oasis etc. etc. etc.

Everyone in that hold pool deserves the job as much as the next person. They have all passed the selection, they are all worthy of the job.

As regards how they will pluck people out of the pool, who knows...

Maybe, if BA have a requirement for 20 people on the A320, they will look at the hold pool and select 20 people who are A320 type rated and current so that they keep their training costs down, irrespective of when they passed their sim check.

Maybe they will do it strictly by when sims were passed.

Whatever they chose to do, there is nothing YOU can do now, you've done your bit. You just have to sit tight and wait for the magic phone call. In the mean time, think about how your posts could rub people up the wrong way and how, IF this is based on an attitude you have, this could affect your career once you start your first job, whoever it may be with.

P.S. May I say, that was a timely edit to your original post :-)

[beastman787]

sharpclassic,

Thank you for picking me up on that. I apologise to anyone who took offense. Of course I was not making the point that certain people deserve the job more than others - the point I should have made and would now like to is that I sympathise with all those who are currently out of employment in the aviation industry. I have edited my post and hope this has no further negative reflection.

I would like to make the point to kotakota that although there were several abbreviations made in my initial post, I assumed that these would be understood by those to whom this thread is relevant.

Kind Regards

[Propellerhead]

kotakota,

I believe personal attacks are not allowed on PPRUNE, and I find your post highly offensive. I'm sure it is not difficult to identify the person in your post who you have slandered. Anyway, if you left BA 4 years ago how do you know this person who has only been in BA for a year?

I'm sure BA is a much nicer place to work now you have gone.

[LSGG]

As many of you I'm swimming in the pool.

As you might see, my english grammar is not perfect as it is not my mother tongue, however I managed to pass the selection...

But with my lack of knowledge in shakespear's language, could someone please tell me what are the meanings of :

SSP
and
JOC

Thanks to all

Cheers

An olympic swimmer :ok:

[bluepilot]

SSP=Self Sponsored Pilot

JOC= Jet Orientation Course

This applies to pilots who have come straight out of schools with minimum flight time (eg Oxford), does not apply to a DEP (Direct Entry Pilot).

[wobble2plank]

Sorry boys but I think the profits warning posted today by Wee Willy has just pulled the plug from the hold pool for the foreseeable future!

All external recruitment to require approval by the Director of PO&E and the CEO

Hopefully see an improvement in 2010!

:mad:

[Propellerhead]

Surely if there's some movement / courses then they must end up with a gap at the bottom ie) spaces for F/O recruits onto the most junior/unpopular fleet. In BA's case I believe it's the Airbus at Gatwick. I don't have any insider information but I wouldn't give up all hope yet if you're swimming.

[Tandemrotor]

Sadly 'career constipation' is the situation within BA. Which means the hold pool is likely to remain 'stagnant' for a while yet.

[cunningplanmylord]

Oh my kockcota,

I think all of us F/O's are entirely grateful for ur crap timining because it is the very likes of ur attitude that gives the 'old school' BA skippers such bad press. Bet u were one of the many arses from hamble back in the days. I suppose too that u believed the only role of the FO was to carry ur bag. TIT

Take ur drivel elsewhere.

[Gnirren]

Are chavs allowed in here now? :p

[757_Driver]

I'm not sure about chavs, but they let me into the hold pool and I'm from Essex for god's sake. Standards clearly aren't what they were!. :E ;)

[thewisealderman]

kokatoa

are you one of those sad old men who looks forward to ba news every week, then writes in with some odd tale of the good old days? or a complaint about staff travel?....yawn....

i'm sure my grammar is wrong somewhere....still won't affect my flying...

[Jamin20]

I'm another Essex boy in the hold pool so they really must be struggling:}

[RAFAT]

cunningplanmylord - I'm not defending kotakota's attitude, but is it any wonder that people like him get wound up when they read posts such as yours?

You, not u.

Your, not ur.

Please, let's have some standards!

[brit bus driver]

How do you know his name's Mark?

:ok:

[3REDS]

Me thinks that your all gonna be in the hold pool for so long that your gonna come out all PRuNe like.:} that is if the plug isnt pulled on you first.


Good luck:ok:

[WindSheer]

The fact that you guys are in the BA pool shows you are of good standard!

I do hope you are trying elsewhere.....:ooh:

[bornfree]

Just wondering if anybody has information on what is likely to happen to the DEPs and SSPs waiting in the holdpool? Has gone very quiet since the last email from John Monks.

bf

[LSGG]

I guess that's because no news since then...

[hunterboy]

Reading between the lines again, I would guess that there will not be much if any recruitment this year, especially as BA's premium traffic is dropping off, along with the easing of the 80/20 slot restriction, let alone the release of the FAA/NTSC statement re:777 with RR engines.
To be perfectly frank, I don't think BA can actually guarantee a need for all of the pilots it presently has. If there is a grounding of the 15 777's with RR engines, it could mean we are a couple of hundred pilots overmanned. I would imagine that the situation in Waterside is very fluid at the moment, and to reiterate an above poster, I would be looking for other jobs at the moment. Personally, I am getting back into IT temporarily as anything could happen. Sadly, your/our livelihoods are in the hands of Obama, Brown and some unelected EU comissioners.

[Re-Heat]

kotakota - a little ill-considered perhaps? I'm not sure you can either judge a person's professional demeanour or flying aptitude through postings from a worried group of people posting anonymously on PPRuNe, all of whom are seeking information in trying times.

Your apology please?

[wobble2plank]

Hmmm, don't know where you get the idea of even the possibility of grounding the RR 777's? Rolls Royce has a new part on the way, there are 'top of drop procedures' in place to prevent ice build up and, even if there was discovered to be a constant, tenable risk on long, high cold soak sectors then the RR777 could be re routed off those sectors.

It's all doom and gloom in the world without inventing new bits!

If I were in GE marketing I would be baying from the highest hill top to get the rollers grounded, but that would just be marketing.

Interesting, times ahead as business plans and cost saving procedures get resolved and announce I think we will hear more, until then you just have to keep treading water!

Good luck

[Tandemrotor]

If there is any recruitment in 2009, I will feel utterley conned!

Sorry but there it is.

[LSGG]

well,

looks like we have to keep our fingers crossed for another extension of the holding pool or re-apply...

Not the best news but not a surprise either.

[binsleepen]

Well, with this latest email from JM I guess this will be a very quiet thread for the next 6 months.

keep the faith

regards

[Jenson Button]

To those of you who passed the sim last year have you been given an update by JM ? There are a few of us swimming for a sim assessment until Autumn and it would be appreciated if you've had any info since Xmas.

Thanks

JB

[binsleepen]

JB

See my post number 5 on this thread for the email we recieved in Jan. We all got another yesterday that said no recruitment this summer and unlikely for the autumn but will update in late summer.

All the best

[mikehammer]

Is there a logical reason why those in the hold pool, who have passed BA's strict vetting and interview procedures, have to re-apply after a time limit? Surely a simple email or letter to enquire whether a successful candidate is still available should further extend their stay in the pool. I don't understand the reason for binning them and getting them to go through the whole process again. Is it a test of resolve?

[Time Traveller]

The simple truth is that historically BA have always been able to offer positions to those in the hold pool within 12 months and so that became the cut off.

As someone who was booted out of the pool many years back, (then failed the selection the second time round - go figure!?), I can assure you, that is not correct.

[bornfree]

Have any SSPs waiting in the holdpool received an email from JM within the last few days or is it just DEPs?

bf

[billybuds]

BF

I recieved an email a couple of days ago from him.

[banana head]

Those interviewed before Sept 11 were not required to re apply so lets see

eh sorry to correct you, but those swimming in the pool post Sept 11th, who were not offered a course did have to reapply when recruitment re-opened almost 3 years later.

[D O Guerrero]

SSP's in the hold pool were told a couple of days ago that they would not be starting a TR in 2009. Not sure if it was all or just some of them.

[FMCDU]

I haven't received an email about this (SSP Pre JOC) so probably not everyone was informed. However I understand from the replies it is not good news at all. Hopefully another extension will be considered.

[beastman787]

(SSP post JOC). I received the email a few days ago and it's not good news at all.

My hold pool is valid until February 2009 and following a conversation with JM after receiving the email, a decision on any extension will not be made until much closer to that time. Recruitment in 2009 is 'highly unlikely' unless the economy takes an unprecedented u-turn.

[wobble2plank]

recent confirmed sale of all remaining 757s we are likely to be fully crewed, if not overcrewed for quite some time to come

I don't think BA are 'overcrewed' in the slightest looking at monthly CAP figures. :confused: Even taking in to account the drop in pax.

Also, the 757's have always been 'earmarked' for Robin Glovers little escapade over in CDG and AMS, the sale to freighter conversion just nets BA a bit of cash. The plan has always been to replace them with the new A320's seen around and those that have come back from GB. Hence the requirement to fill in a forced bid last year.

Things are static at the moment I'll grant you but I don't think it is going to remain static for too long with the fully financed aircraft orders BA has planned plus the possibility of early (already funded) A380's that neither AF or Qantas can afford. Add to that the 777 orders that start arriving next month plus the 777-300er and I think you will see how quick things turn around.

[AlexL]

I'm still not holding my breath, but if the various bits of news over the last 6 months has taught us anything about this economic crisis, it is that it is completely unpredictable and very surprising. An economic u-turn in the near future? Can't really see it, but if it happened I wouldn't be at all surprised.

However, I think that if and when a recovery does occur it will probably be fairly quick and fairly surprising - i.e not really signalled in advance. I suspect that BA may want to keep at least some people treading water so they can crew up quickly if they need to, and not get caught on the hop.
History shows that economic recoveries after recessions tend to cause significant undercapacity in many business who have cut too deep, or cut in the wrong areas and have no contingency for the recovery. And those who can pick up capacity quickly can do very well indeed during the early parts of an economic recovery. I'm sure there are wiser and better paid people than I, who work for BA and also know this! So i'd be very surprised if we all got hoofed out.

[tom booze]

Guys/Girls,

Wake up look around,there are a lot better deals elsewhere than BA,

[sharpclassic]

Tom Booze, Location: Abu Dhabi.

Thanks, but no thanks!

[Mister Geezer]

LIFO is a thing of the past, irrespective of what any company or its employees have agreed. I am led to believe that it is no longer classed as a legitimate way of selecting those for redundancy. Touchwood - this will never happen though.

As for:

Tom Booze, Location: Abu Dhabi.

Thanks, but no thanks!

Beats sitting on the motorway driving to work in the bucketing rain! ;)

[ZeBedie]

LIFO is a thing of the past

I guess you're not familiar with last years test case, involving an employee of
Rolls-Royce, which means that LIFO is still going to be normal practice?

[sweetie76]

Why don't you ask the 'baby' guys about LIFO?

[Mister Geezer]

When redundancies were made at my last outfit it was made very clear that LIFO is no longer a legitimate way of selecting those for redundancy. The Baby brethren at BHX were put through the same mill and a friend in another UK airline has been told the same thing by his superiors. Surely three occasions can't be a coincidence?

[wobble2plank]

SEVENMILEUP,

I would be a touch wary of the BALPA forum.

As to a hull reduction this year? Again I dispute that. The draw down of the 757 is to be a lengthy one over the next two to three years. A three hull reduction at Gatwick is being offset by the 10 A320 orders that were delivered in 2008 coupled with 9 new 320's for 2009, 2 318's in final fit at the moment and 2 ex GB 320's that are causing consternation with their singular fuelling coupling on the 'wrong' side. 6 319 aircraft have gone to Gatwick and no draw down in routes for LHR over the summer and a slight route regularity draw down over the winter with no routes dropped. G-YMMM is being replaced soon and then the delivery of the 6 fleet expansion 777's are due to start soon. Overcrewed? Depends on your viewpoint and how deep you dig into the flight ops planning.

As to LIFO, it is of no doubt that BALPA support LIFO. It is the easiest, most convenient and, unless you are below the magic red line, the least contentious form of redundancy. Sadly, with differing fleets and aircraft a few other factors come into play such as re-training. I, personally, would find it galling if a company made me redundant citing cost as a basis and then retrained, incurring training costs, a 'senior' person to do the job I was just laid off from. This is also against EU law where a person cannot be made redundant and then have his job filled within a short time period by another person. 757 draw done? LIFO, replace all of the junior Airbus boys with the 'senior' 757 boys? Ouch. Legal? Possibly not.

Remember, the world is not black and white and BALPA got badly burned over the OS debacle.

What the future holds no one is entirely sure. What you can be sure of is that BA will want to be in a position to ramp up quickly when needed and they can't do that without pilots.

[potkettleblack]

Special leave might be an option as well. You would be surprised how many people would like to have a year or two off and head for the hills or devote more time to the golf game, outside business interests, go traveling with the family and kids, fly for another carrier on heavier metal etc. So long as seniority is protected and provisions put in place for pension payments and they get first back in when rehiring starts again it can be a win win for all involved and might save the more junior people who are after all relatively cheap to employ.

[Blackball]

I seem to recall that BALPA did not support the LIFO rule when it came to the Dan-Air debacle.
BA will do what BA has to do to survive in this recession it loyalty is to the shareholders not to the staff.

[Re-Heat]

LIFO is a thing of the past, irrespective of what any company or its employees have agreed.
Sorry, but I have witnessed this in use legally several times this year in both aviation and other industries.

Rather a pity.

[StudentInDebt]

When redundancies were made at my last outfit it was made very clear that LIFO is no longer a legitimate way of selecting those for redundancyGoing a little off-topic but it's amazing how quickly managers trot this line out when it suits them and how ignorant they are. The recent age discrimination legislation does allow an employer to consider length of service when determining the reward an employee receives, if you want to look it up it's Section 32 of the Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006.

Of course if your employer chooses not to use LOS as a criteria for redundancy then that's up to them but it has nothing to do with it being unlawful, as the recent Rolls-Royce case demonstrated, and much more to do with finding an excuse to select the cheapest employees to make redundant.

[BUS319]

Having flown with the BA BALPA chairman recently, he assured me the company have not so much as hinted at pilot redundancies. Part time and unpaid leave are just some options that would be discussed before the big R word is mentioned.
Our head of flight ops has also said during a forum that the costs associated with making a pilot redundant and then retraining them 1-2 years down the line are high enough that it is just not an option.
For the pilots treading water, it is no secret that BA's biggest problem during the last recruitment drive was finding enough candidates to pass selection. Now, we have a full hold pool that have gone through the system and BA will be very reluctant to let you go. We have large aircraft orders and the fella's at pp24 have to retire at some point (2011 discussed as being the next big surge), couple this to the fact that BA wants to be ready to expand quicky once this cyclical industry begins to improve. I don't believe it's all bad. IN IMHO

[brit bus driver]

BUS319...Can you let me know the supplier of your rose-tinted spectacles and half full glasses!:ok:

FWIW, I think you're probably right. Well, I hope so...given my pitiful lack of seniority!

[NigelOnDraft]

...and the fella's at pp24 have to retire at some point (2011 discussed as being the next big surge), By definition, the next bulge cannot be called as prior 2016 :{ The Oct 2006 legislation allowed the 55s to now stay on... until they are 65 :ooh:

NoD

[Chief Brody]

I think what Bus319 was intimating when he spoke of 2011 was that potentially a number of flight crew might not choose to go all the way to 65 but instead bow out at 60 thus creating some movement.

CB

[Jenson Button]

I hate to ask, but is anyone getting tired of swimming.I've only got a few months left before my arms stop flapping.....:\:\:\

JB

Might have to take the championship seriously now, bit hot in the desert though.

[WindSheer]

Lets be honest guys......swine flew has created a whole new perspective!
Times are going to get much worse!!

[Count von Altibar]

Exactly WS, there'll be redundancies before new jobs. This swine flu is really going to screw things up in aviation...

[Bellerophon]

Click on this link for information dated 01 May 09: http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/371892-ba-direct-entry-pilots.html#post4900555

[BugSpeed]

Guys and Girls,

As much as it is a difficult time for all of us, no matter what airline or industry we are with at the moment, I think, for our own sanity we need to keep some level heads here.

Without pulling any punches:

1. The hold pool is about 80 - 100 strong according to the last information I had (not sure of the accuracy to be honest though).

2. Have the top 500 been asked to take "Early Retirement" or "Redundancy". There is a subtle legal difference. The reason its the top and not bottom 500 is quite simple: salary costs. This top 16% of the seniority list will be earning some comfortable cash on old, relatively inefficient for BA, contracts. If they leave then this may add an extra level of financial flexibility.

3. Airbus orders are not halting. Whether or not they are parked up is a different question.

4. The situation is definately not rosey and yes, I think we do need to be worried.

5. One main reason, in my humble opinion, we received the last email from JM slightly earlier than planned is because people may have been hassling Cranebank. They will get back to us - unless you are within a month of your hold pool expiry it wont really be of much use to be on the phone everyday asking for an update.

6. The pool has been extended once. As far as I'm aware this is unprecedented. They are keen to keep hold of "the right pilots" they identified on our round of recruitment. Obviously, situations change and personally, I think 18 months is about the limit before some form of informal chat would be required; just to check on aspirations and career state.

7. Cost of recruitment is c.£1000 per pilot. With £100k of investment sat in a pool, if I was a bean counter, I would want to hold on to that for as long as possible.

8. My best bit of advice to anyone NOT lucky enough to be in line flying at the moment: find out someway of working with the airlines/flying in general. Push yourself about to get a dispatching job, ticket desk, baggage handling, blinking anything. As long as you are working in the industry (in whatever form that may take), your committment to "the cause" will show through should any re-tread interviews happen.

Finally, there are definately troubled times ahead. The worst thing we can do is be completely pessimistic.

Chaps and Chapesses, we are all pilots. We are paid to take a pragmatic approach to problems. Lets just bear that in mind and not get too wrapped up in what may or may not happen in 6 months time: aviation is a VERY fluid industry.

BS

[Juan Tugoh]

A few facts here. It is voluntary redundancy. It is not just the top 500 that it is available to - merely that they will be the first to get the letter - that will not preclude any pilot without a letter from applying or being accepted for the scheme. The cost of recruitment is a red herring, the total cost of those in the pool is less than that being offered to one PP24 person to go. Deliveries of new Airbus aircraft have already been accounted for and will not alter pilot numbers. As cost savings achieved by this scheme will only cover the fiscal years 0910 and 1011 there will be no recruitment until Apr 2011 at the earliest - else the costs will have to be recovered elsewhere. Those are facts.


2x767 and 3x747 likely to be parked up this winter or maybe earlier.

Sadly this does not look good for those swimming at the moment - but it may well be prudent to keep extending the time for those in the pool as when BA needs pilots it will need them suddenly - that is the nature of airline recruitment.

Good luck to all swimmers, take the advice about taking any job in aviation.

[beastman787]

Being in such a fluid industry I do not think statements such as 'no recruitment until Apr 2011 at the earliest' help anyone. That is not a 'fact', it is opinion.

Rewind one year and ask BA when they would predict the next time that voluntary redundancies would become imperative and recruitment halted. I can guarantee that the answer would not have been 'in the next 8 months.' The recovery speed is as unpredictable as the rate at which we went into recession - we are in uncharted waters.

Things are bad, there is no question, but there is simply no point in second guessing.

Good luck to everyone out there swimming and chin up to those guys who aren't currently getting any flying work.

[Tandemrotor]

I do not think statements such as 'no recruitment until Apr 2011 at the earliest' help anyone. That is not a 'fact', it is opinion.

To be strictly accurate, it is neither a fact, nor an opinion.

It is a stated company position, and is the 'key' to allowing the volountary severance arrangements to proceed. The company simply will not tolerate any severance if they anticipate 'backfilling' those positions within the stated period (Apr 2011). It would be financial stupidity!

The severance offer is simply a tool for BA/BALPA to determine what 'productivity improvements' (as opposed to salary cuts) could be used towards, our cost saving target, In other words they will be stripping these jobs out of the system for good!

This is different, and possibly additional to, redundancies!

[Tandemrotor]

Todays update from management appears to paint an even worse picture than before. B777 is currently carrying surplus pilots, however this will be rectified when the delayed orders are delivered. B747 will be in surplus when at least two more jets are grounded in the winter. B757/767 will be in surplus at the same time for the same reason. A320/B737 at LGW will be in surplus at the same time for the same reason. A320 should be about right as things stand at the moment, HOWEVER, this may change if the company are allowed to simply suspend LHR routes under the 80/20 alleviation.

BA don't have any other fleets.

As stated earlier, the Voluntary Redundancy program is purely a mechanism to allow the pilots to strip costs out of the system by improved productivity. It was never designed to cope with a pilot surplus. Other measures will have to be found to address the probable reduction in flying volume.

[BugSpeed]

Tandem rotor,

Clearly you are currently employed by BA, as this is hot off the press. I am pleased that you are sharing with us the latest information, but at the same time I dont quite understand your thinking. Surely the whole reason for BA management using VR, unpaid leave etc is to alleviate the surplus problem by targeting the top 500. From a reliable source I have heard figures of around 100 as being the current surplus which will obviously increase if BA's network shrinks further. Saying that I am pretty sure 1/5 will take the VR offer if it goes through, possibly more. Of course people will have a vairety of reasons whether they stay or carry on.

I though on the other hand dont think you need to paint quite such a gloomy picture for those currently swimming in the pool. BA have made it very clear that whilst they are keen to meet the budgets set they are also focussed on being able to meet the surge when the markets pick up, which they will. Hence the unprecedented decision to abandon the annual limit of the hold pool.

I very much doubt that compulsory redundancy is on the cards just yet, as if you had read BA's recent news break it was primarily aimed at hurrying along the pilots who are considering leave or VR so that they can then plan the next move. In other words I think they hope VR to solve the current surplus.

To all those in the pool, I think we should just remember that ANYTHING can happen in this business....

[wobble2plank]

Bugspeed,

I hope you can share your 'reliable' source with us as the numbers you quote for surplus aren't quite correct and the current position of the company in the current climate is still under scrutiny by Price Waterhouse Coopers.

As to offsetting surplus pilots then the pilots targeted under VR are not for that purpose. Each department has been given specific forward looking cost cutting measures and the VR target enables BA/BALPA to negotiate productivity issues based around the financial gains that VR would bring as those issues affect all remaining pilots. The company can, currently, absorb the pilot surplus numbers without a problem. The numbers only start to become a problem if Jets need parking up over the winter at 12 crews a jet.

Relaxing the 80/20 rule will allow the company to park up jets over the winter which will lead to a reduced flying program which will lead to reduced monthly allowances and hence impact all of the current pilots.

If there is a 'pick up' and when it comes then BA should hopefully be in a position to benefit. What the T's & C's will be of new pilot contracts or even current pilot contracts will be remain, at the moment, very fluid.

And yes, I agree with Tandem Rotor, it is a time for gloomy news as the pain will be shared by all and, at the moment, none of us has sight of how deep the axe will bite.

[Carnage Matey!]

In other words I think they hope VR to solve the current surplus.

There's every indication with the relaxation of EU slot rules the surplus is going to grow to a level far higher than could ever be covered by voluntary redundancy.

[Tandemrotor]

BugSpeed
Surely the whole reason for BA management using VR, unpaid leave etc is to alleviate the surplus problem by targeting the top 500

No it most definitely is not.

I though on the other hand dont think you need to paint quite such a gloomy picture for those currently swimming in the pool.

Shame on me! There was me thinking I was simply giving a factual report on how my colleagues and I had just seen the trivial issue of Compulsory Redundancy come one step closer!

How dare I paint 'such a gloomy picture' for the poor sensitive Darlings in 'the pool'! :rolleyes:

Since you have a 'reliable source' I shall leave it to you to proclaim the good news when it comes.

How long do you think it will be?

[Juan Tugoh]

I've got to agree with TR here, just because you don't like the news coming from those few in BA that are telling you what is going on there is no need to shoot the messenger. By all means be a 'glass half full" person, it will make you a nicer colleague to fly with, but don't dismiss info from insiders just because you think you know better. Hold pool swimmers need information - annoying those that give info, gloomy or otherwise, will not help or increase the flow of that information.

[757_Driver]

I for one am glad of the information flowing on this thread.
Some of us will have to make major life decisions over the coming months, if we loose a job, or perhaps looking to change a job, or move house, or make financial commitments or whatever. The "how likely am I to be emlpoyed by BA in x months time" is a very important factor in this decision making and I am glad that some people are keeping us updated.

FWIW my personal planning is assuming that I am NOT going to be getting an offer from BA. Others may think differently but thats my take on the current news and looking at the current climate.
I am a glass half full person, but ultimately I can only control what I can control - no use worrying about what the rest of the world does - BA will do whatever they do, nothing I can do about it, however many positive thinking books I read!

[Bellerophon]

BugSpeed

...Surely the whole reason for BA management using VR, unpaid leave etc is to alleviate the surplus problem by targeting the top 500...

No.


...I am pretty sure 1/5 will take the VR offer if it goes through, possibly more...

On what can you possibly base that statement?

I've known most of those concerned for over 25 years and I haven't got a clue how many will go, may go, or are considering going?


...In other words I think they hope VR to solve the current surplus...

BA knows that VR won't solve the current crisis.


...From a reliable source I have heard figures of around 100 as being the current surplus...

Really?

Well, I have heard, from the reliable source, there is no surplus figure being quoted, at present, nor is a future one being quoted, at present, because BA can't know what that figure might be until the VR process has closed, until the cost saving discussions with BALPA have closed, until the EU decide on the 80/20 slot rule and until the Route Planners finalise the route closure and aircraft stand-down program, as well as a few other minor factors like whether the Cabin Crew decide to take Industrial Action.

If the 80/20 decision goes in BA's favour, and if business passengers don't start flying again in a hurry, then a figure of 100 surplus pilots is certainly quite possible and it may well be much worse than that!

At present, nobody knows for sure, so if someone is quoting a figure to you, it's likely to be just guesswork.


...I very much doubt that compulsory redundancy is on the cards just yet...

For what it's worth, the majority opinion amongst the pilots in BA that I've spoken to is that there may well be compulsory redundancies ahead.

We hope not, but if there are, then BALPA will negotiate their recall ahead of any new hires, so it is unlikely to benefit pilots in the hold pool.


...dont think you need to paint quite such a gloomy picture...

Nobody is painting any sort of picture. However you have had at least three current BA pilots tell you what is happening, but, or so it appears, because it's not what you want to hear, you seem reluctant to accept it.

That's fine; you're entitled to your opinion.

However for others who may be about to make major career decisions, I would advise them to consider very carefully what has been posted by those inside BA. Optimism is a great quality, but Realism is a better one.

Finally, I believe there is some hope for those currently swimming in the pool who wish to remain there.

The year long time limit was only ever a piece of HR dogma, with no relevance to the real world that anyone outside HR could ever understand. Abandoning it has been long overdue, will save BA some money and may even allow a reduction in the number of Flt Ops HR personnel, a silver lining to a dark cloud if ever there was one!

As you say, BA have made it clear that they wish to be in a position to meet the surge when/if markets pick up, and they will wish to have pilots in the hold pool when that happens.

When might that be? 2011 is the very earliest date that I've heard mentioned, but that could happen, so, if you are determined to join BA and you can stick it out until then, who knows, you could be in luck!


I wish you all the Best of Luck in whatever you decide to do,

Bellerophon

[davecr]

Just another confirmation that yes, VR has been offered and yes, CR has been hinted at by top management in their latest communication..

Hang in there guys, I've was there a few years ago and know how tough it is (hope not to be joining you again - 290ish from the bottom of the seniority list...):uhoh:

[BugSpeed]

Bellerophon,

I bet you are just charming to fly with :D

BS

[Shaka Zulu]

BS that comment of yours is way out of line.
I can see NOTHING wrong with his posting. Your sarcasm is misplaced.
His post is spot on and resembles my own view as a BA pilot. The truth can hurt, but at the moment we're hurting.

[Mister Geezer]

For those in the pool, I was wondering just how long ago some of you applied?

[LSGG]

Applied february 08
screening june 08
Sim august 08
Excellent swimmer!

[Tandemrotor]

BugSpeed

Everything in Bellerophon's post is accurate.

Whereas, two weeks ago, you said:
I though on the other hand dont think you need to paint quite such a gloomy picture for those currently swimming in the pool.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Do tell when the good news is likely to be declared?

[western bronco]

Ok Guys,

Think we all need to calm down a bit, it is clearly a frustrating time for everyone. If BA go down the route of CR's I am very much in the target zone, having just crept in before the drawbridge went up... so nobody is safe at the moment. But at the same time things are still really fluid, one minute CR's are going to happen, next Willie is saying they havent even been discussed regarding Flight Ops? Everyone seems to have a different opinion, one day I fly with someone who is telling me to sort out my cv, the next I am told not to worry....the truth is nobody knows!!!!

If the recession is still on it definitely isnt affecting BA shorthaul....just done 4 days of full loads, which has been pretty much the trend for the past few weeks....before you say it...I know the money is in longhaul....but T5 is far from quiet. And as BS did say BA will want to ramp it up fairly quickly when those green sprouts appear. So those swimming, I wouldnt lose hope...if you are still flying and keeping your experience up I see no reason for BA to drop you anytime soon....

So lets all chill out, because at the end of the day this is a rumour site!!!!

[EGKK.]

Well said...:ok:

[Tandemrotor]

Last reported on this thread, on 5th May was the estimate of fleet reductions. At that time, it was 2x767, and 3x747.

A few days ago, it was announced that the 'current' working assumption for winter 09 (from end Oct) was 8x757, and 8x747 to be removed from operations.

If these figures prove accurate, there are very likely to be significant implications for those currently employed by BA.

As a rough guide, the company have announced they are looking to reduce cabin crew numbers by 2000 (out of 14000 = 14%?) by 30 Sep 09.

Please feel free to draw your own conclusions.

PS: Admittedly not strictly relevant, but incase you were wondering, 14% of 3200 pilots, is 448)

[wiggy]

"At this time no numbers for pilot surplus have been quoted, but rest assured if and when BA declare redundancies are required, all avenues will no doubt be explored"

Err, it's not "if" - BA have already asked for pilots to take redundency on a voluntary basis - though I agree no numbers have been quoted.

[TopBunk]

The 2000 cabin crew number bears no relationship to any flight crew number. The cabin crew community procedures are very inflexible in disruption on LH and very inflexible slightly off schedule resulting in combination with a sickness rate 3 times that of the pilots community in a requirement for enormous numbers on various types of standby.

Whilst LH cabing crew approach the 900 hour limit, as do LH pilots the SH cabin crew only fly about 500 hours vs 700 for SH pilots (company numbers, individual pilots will vary). Doubtless many of the 2000 will reflect changes in working practises esp in SH that are long overdue, and not just the fleet standdown programme.

As to recruitment of pilots, Bellepheron is spot on, you may not like the news but son't shoot the messenger:ugh:

I wouldn't plan of any pilot hiring before 2011 at the very soonest, probably late 2011 or 2012 in reality.

[overstress]

LH cabing crew - they may well be driving cabs soon, as may the pilots http://www.carpe-tdm.net/ipb/style_emoticons/default/shocked.gif

[Mister Geezer]

BA will recruit again and for those still waiting then it is purely a question of can you perhaps wait a couple of years (maybe more) before joining? Some of the negativity that I have seen would indicate that BA are about to announce that all pilot recruitment has permanently ended.

The industry is struggling but a peak will be around the corner at some point. Until we see that peak on the horizon, then remaining employed will be a feat in itself for quite a few of us.

Worry about things you can control. None of us can control the HR needs at BA. Keep your head down and survive the storm and be ready to strike whilst the iron is getting hot again!

[Tandemrotor]

All current indications seem to suggest, the ONLY thing that will prevent Compulsory Redundancies of pilots at BA, will be if BA pilots as a whole vote for FURTHER financial penalties to save the jobs of colleagues at risk.

This is ON TOP of ALL current negotiations for VR / Increased Productivity / Pay Cuts.

As you would all admire. Any of our colleagues who WERE made Redundant would be offered re-employment before anyone from any 'hold pool' (Should such a concept have survived to the relevant time)

FYI: Headlines in the most recent BA News, was: "Fight For Survival"

Allegedly we are up against it!

[binsleepen]

Just out of interest when were the last swimmers taken out of the pool to start a course?

Regards

Sleepen

[brit bus driver]

Late October last year I think. I was on a course at Cranebank when they were going through their induction week.

[EZYramper]

Charlie Maunder from BA met with CTC cadets on Friday.

He said they didn't expect any company recruitment until April 2011.

[blackred1443]

i think it possibly not ground breaking news that ba are not going to hiring for a long time to come.time to move on;)

[beastman787]

The last course were low-houred candidates that started late December 08/Jan 09 on A320.

BM

[sharpclassic]

Got the email then guys?

The Hold Pool is no more!

[billybuds]

Not a huge surprise, but not the nicest email to wake up to!

[EGKK.]

It's c**p news, i know but let's look at the positives...we get the first go at it when they need more pilots. I'm sure they'll look upon us more favourably as we made it all the way last time.

It could pick up sooner then they anticipate and we could get a letter/email or call mid 2010 asking us to come in again for the fun and games of the assessment, it may be a waterd down version for us...who knows?

It's effectively out of all our hands. If you still want it when the time comes, go get it! Things may change by then and you may not want it.
one thing is for sure and that is it will pick up, it always has...it's just a case of when.

Can anyone who had a similar situation around 2001 tell us what it was like 2nd time around? Anyone get in first time only to be told no second time around...

[Day_Dreamer]

I am Very Sorry to hear about the ending of the hold pool.

Its a sad day for all of you, but the bright side is that you can apply again with some priority in the future.

BA are in a very bad way financially, as are many of the legacy carriers and may not survive without more major cut backs. (Maybe a lucky escape)

I hate to see anyone loose jobs or the prospect of a job. (Been there myself too often)

Best wishes to you all, and good luck in the future.

[FMCDU]

Disapointing news, but not completely unexpected given the circumstances.

I am happy with BA giving us the first go at positions when recruitment does eventually pick up. One could argue that the more fresh straight out of MCC guys and galls graduating between now and 2011 have the advantage, so I appreciate the recognition of our commitment to BA.

I'm not holding my breath for an earlier recovery of the situation, but when things do pick up have confidence in the fact that we have been positively assessed by BA before.

I agree with EGKK that it would be interesting to learn about some experiences from post 9/11 pilots.

[jaarrgh]

Well at least we may have a chance to do the micropat and maths tests again for free! Now you can't put a price on that!

[Junta Leader]

Ah well....

Inevitable really given the :mad: state of the global economy. I can only take heart when JM offers those evicted from the pool the chance to apply first before opening the competition to the wider community; who knows when this will be though.

Fingers crossed for an improvement sooner rather than later.

I wonder if they'll need 4 more carefully crafted 'essay' answers again...:uhoh:

JL

[one post only!]

I have not recieved this email?? Anyone else not got it?

[evian]

Me too, no email, YET!

[757_Driver]

Oh well, such is life. Nothing different to what I expected. I have just been reminded about what is important in life anyway by the serious illness of a child very close to my family, so I ain't gonna be bothered by something as trivial as a Job.

I would like to thank all those on here that helped me to pass the recruitment process in the first place - the origonal thread on that was a gem..

Personally I think 2011 for BA expanding again is unduly optimistic - I have yet to see any indication that the economy will make a meaningful recovery - the banks and public sector which largely caused this mess have not changed their mentality one bit, and as Einstein said - "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".
Also many people seem to be equating the word "recovery" with "return to where we were" which is never gonna happen. That was false growth based on debt and governmnent excess.

I'd still love to work for BA, I think they are the employer of choice in the industry in the UK at the moment, but another 4-5 years is quite significant at my age and current stage in my career so I guess I'll just take a view if and when they start recruiting again. Hell, unless someone in whitehall gets a grip we'll all be living in the middle east by then anyway!

Thanks again to those who posted details o f their experiencess in the recruitment process and to those in BA who kept us updated on here with company info. :ok:

[wobble2plank]

Personally I think 2011 for BA expanding again is unduly optimistic

Possibly not too optimistic. Bear in mind that the 380 has only been delayed for a 'short' period with the first aircraft still expected in 2012. The training lead times for that aircraft would be in 2011. Add to that the current VR places, and the delivery of 4 777-300's which will mop up the current pilot surplus in the next summer season coupled with the, still to fly, 787 orders and things could indeed move in 2011.

Best of luck to all who are now 'beached'. Annoying I know but give it another shot. I feel it will be a slightly different company in 2011 but certainly one worth working for.

W2P

[Jet A1]

W2P - I fear you are being a little too optimistic. I would suggest some of the aircraft on order will now just replace the 'older' and more 'fuel-hungry' fleet within BA.

With no 'recovery' on the horzion BA will continue to suffer as the Premium traffic will continue to dry up.

Hard times ahead...

[wobble2plank]

I really wouldn't be too sure.

The thrust of the VR agreement was to get it 'sorted' as soon as possible as the company is keen to recruit.

Recruit under what T's & C's remains to be seen but with the 777 fleet expanding and the 787/380 fleet on the way with the crewing levels to match then I think the next few years could be interesting. BA runs, at the moment, at about 3000-3200 pilots. Any significant aircraft orders above and beyond those already ordered and ratified for mainline (away from the now defunct Openskies debacle) will need crewing.

A year or two maybe but, if the company survives the rubbish from Unite, interesting times ahead.

[Mister Geezer]

I would say that it is far too premature to forecast when recruitment will next begin at BA. They are still hurting as is the rest of the industry and whilst BA will probably survive, other British operators may not. The business plan that BA has now might be completely different at the end of the recession.

[757_Driver]

Wobble - thanks for all that - but at the risk of appearing pessimistic - I still don't see that there is the economy, or market for BA to expand. The plan they have at the moment may look like 2011 recruitment is going to happen, but I still think there is another chapter to be written in this whole affair (the country / global economy, not just BA!).
I'm sure BA will sort the unite issue - after all there are 3 million unemployed - 1 million of which are 18-25 year olds - Unite must understand that they can't push it too much. I'm also sure that BA will stay in business and become 'fit' to suit the market going forward. However the govnerments response to Ryanairs threats are that they are going to push ahead with the Air passenger duty rises and are not going to help the industry at all, Cameron's lot apear to be buying al this environmental bull as well, so no help expected there either.
This year, despite the recession, the other hub airports in europe have seen passenger rises, indicating that transit pax are starting to avoid the UK. couple this with the fact that there is absolutely no indication of any economic recovery, then I really cannot see where BA expect to get the passenger growth to fit this plan.

I hope i'm wrong, but I don't think I will be. I guess I'll come back and have a look in 2012 and add another post to this thread!

[WindSheer]

What about the airframes they are going to randomly ditch over the next year or two...cos lets face it..BA are in the sh1t!

I hope it works for you guys, but lets face it......any recruitment before 2012 will be a bonus.

All the best..:uhoh:

[wobble2plank]

WindSheer,

Don't write it all off too soon. The 757's were going anyway and are still being back filled now with Airbus. The 767 will soldier on in the Medium Haul category and the 747 was due to be slowly phased away and replaced by the more fuel efficient 777. 4 777-300 ER's coming this/next year. The current projection is a winter schedule 3-4% draw down. Not huge!

Even with the LH/SH draw down and the VR the company are managing the current, minor, pilot surplus well.

As 757_Driver has stated this all depends upon the shape of the current economic recession and both its depth and length. I feel if we could all possess that sort of crystal ball then we wouldn't be working in this industry!

The next year will be crucial. This coming winter season could be a killer for many airlines. Next year will be, imho, slim pickings. After that? Who knows.

I wouldn't write off a mid to late 2011 time frame though.

[sharpclassic]

Has anyone who hasn't received an email actually got in touch with BA to see why not? Are they keeping some people in the pool and chucking everyone else out?

[evian]

All the people who haven't heard anything, it's just that BA forgot to send us the email.

BA sent group emails as they did in March, but forgot a group of about 16 of us.

So once JM has been forwarded the email he sent to us in March, he will then know who didn't get the email from last week and then send us all the bad news.

A little unprofessional I think, but I am not at all surprised.

I am guessing now that this thread will go quite till mid 2011, good luck to all in the mean time.

Evian

Off to drink some of the water I have been swimming in for the past year!!

[Tandemrotor]

I'm sure you have all heard: Ba have declared a reduction in the amount of flying they will undertake in the next 3 seasons, up to 31 Mar 2011. This is likely to result in a surplus of approximately 100 pilots.

Negotiations are commencing to discuss how this surplus will be handled.

Worthy of note, is the fact that, due to the recent offer of Voluntary Redundancy, it is highly unlikely that any of the pilot workforce are considering retiring in the next 12-18 months!

[jumboy]

Evian did you eventually receive the e-mail? I'm still waiting.

[one post only!]

I got it a couple of weeks ago.

[binsleepen]

Copied from the PPRUNE BA cabin crew thread

Message from Willie Walsh

Dear colleague

It has been a year since we started talks with the trade unions to do everything we can to save our airline in the face of the worst economic crisis in our history.

There has been a seismic shift in our industry, with the slump in business travel driving down our revenue by £1 billion. The fragility of our industry means many airlines have gone bust and others, such as our oneworld partner Japan Airlines, are on the brink of bankruptcy.

Despite this and the recent talks at the Trades Union Council (TUC), Unite still refuses to accept our cost saving proposals in IFCE and, as you know, it has announced another cabin crew strike ballot, raising the prospect of major disruption to our customers.

I know many of you will once again be appalled at the distress a strike would cause our customers and the damage it will do to our company – especially when so many of you have already made sacrifices.

That is why I am writing to you today.

I am asking for volunteers to back BA by training to work alongside cabin crew who choose not to support a strike, so we are ready to keep our customers flying as much as we possibly can if this strike goes ahead.


How to volunteer

If you would be willing to volunteer for both the training and the subsequent work in the air we will ask you to register via the homepage of the intranet.

From tomorrow, you can sign up to train to become volunteer cabin crew. We will be advertising the scheme across the airline, but will focus initially on people who are available in the key period and who meet the relevant criteria. Later on, there will also be the opportunity to volunteer for our customer support programme on the ground.

There will be a wealth of information on the intranet to help you choose which role would be right for you, and you should also speak with your manager before you volunteer.

Thank you for backing BA

In recent weeks, hundreds of you have volunteered in the terminals during the unprecedented winter weather to support our customers and our operation. Operational colleagues including our cabin crew have pulled out all the stops under very difficult circumstances. And only last weekend we were inundated with volunteers to take the relief 747 out to Haiti.

The path back to profitability is not easy but many of you have not only understood what is required but also made sacrifices. Reducing our costs and changing how we are structured while remaining focused on our customers are essential for our long-term survival.

I hope that Unite will recognise that a way forward can be found without the need for them to threaten our customers holidays and travel plans and I remain available to meet with them at any time.

In the meantime, thank you for volunteering and for backing BA and our customers.

I have a bit of spare time on my hands at the moment so I have just emailed Capt JM to volunteer if required. They took all our details for security passes etc after all.

On a different point if BA gets all this cabin crew nonsense sorted out does anyone think that they will be expanding the route network or frequency for the summer? And if so will there be any requirement for recruitment? Or are all the present crew working at well under capacity?

Thanks

[wiggy]

Interesting use of language "flaps", perhaps even a bit confrontational.....

For the sake of completeness the volunteer list is being filled by folks from all departments, Frankly many people in BA, be they in BALPA, Unite, or Anyother union are not prepared to lie down and let this dispute bankrupt the company. If you think "JM", worries about people signing up for a volunteer list then think again.

binsleepin - I wouldn't hold your breath, apart from the length of time it takes to process the record check I'd say that whilst it is probably legitimate for the Company to use current employees to man flights, hiring new labour specifically to strike break might be a bridge to far legally . Expansion in the wake of all this? Sadly forget it, until at least this time next year, IMHO of course. I think most of us at BA are just hoping to reach the end of this year with our jobs intact.

Good luck anyway.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The word from friends in BA is that recruitment is tentatively forecast at some point in 2011. Their premuim traffic has recently risen for the first time since the start of the recession so here's hoping. The 2011 prediction has come from many sources including management pilots. We shall see...

[Chief Brody]

In the companys monthly publication Flight Ops News it was mentioned a few months back that there was the possibility for some recruitment (albeit very limited) at some point in 2011.

[Junta Leader]

As this is a Rumour Network...

I have also heard the 2011 forecast that BMRR and CB mention above. There certainly appears to be some positive news around for once, but it is worth bearing in mind that the pick up in Premium Traffic could be 'statistical' only given the weather factor in Feb 09? The Press Release (from the BA website for the figures) quotes "Traffic comprised a 5.0 per cent increase in premium traffic and a 0.3 per cent increase in non-premium traffic. Last year's February traffic data was affected by significant weather disruption in the first week of the month."

That aside I'm really hoping that this is good news for once and the signs of a few more green shoots in the industry...

JL:}

[BugSpeed]

Any news on how they plan to recruit?

One rumour I heard was a re-interview only of the last batch of successful applicants from around mMay - Jul 2008

BS

[Chief Brody]

A pal of mine who was in the hold pool before it was disbanded said that the company informed them that at the next round of recruitment they would be given first dibs re the application process.

Whether this means...

A guaranteed interview minus the psychobable (as they've done it and passed already)

A guaranteed 'full' day one selection placement minus the online application part

I dont know.

CB

[snooky]

There could be considerable movement coming up.

Due to the last governments' punitive pension contribution taxes on high earners, 900 or so may need to go part time soon,causing maybe 200 vacancies to arise.

Maybe the new coalition will realise that these unfair taxes will raise less revenue than the status quo due to discouraging work though.

[simmy]

If what you say is correct, Snooky, that will be 200 more jobs and hardly any change in the living standards for the 900 additional part-timers, except perhaps a better quality of life for them and more time spent with the family.
Most taxes are unfair for someone and I agree a 50% rate will probably raise no additional revenue, but you cannot blame the former Government for sticking to their principles of taking from the well off and giving it away to the poor!

[TheKabaka]

Hi Simmy, I suspect many guys could acccept the 50% rate. There is also loss of personal tax allowance and loss of tax relief on pensions.

You are correct in saying if these high earning pilots go part time they do less work, but still keep 95% of their take home. What would you do in the same situation?

Obverall UK plc will get less tax revenue cos people do not want to work for the tax man. It proves the diminishing returns from increased rates of taxation.

On the plus side it may create some vacancies for swimmers in the (ex)hold pool.

[simmy]

Hi, I didn't read the post properly - the reference of course was to pension contributions being allowed only at the lower rate.
As we all know in this job timing is everything - and that's almost always down to luck. My view, for what it's worth, is take an early bath if you can afford it, and create a bit of space below you. However, I had my early bath forced on me, age 58, due to a dodgy ECG and it proved a real blessing. I've only just packed in working (age 71) and that's because I let my SFI licence lapse! And I enjoyed every minute, I mean it, despite the midnight slots and the occasional know all! There is still fun at work.

[Deep and fast]

Overall UK plc will get less tax revenue cos people do not want to work for the tax man. It proves the diminishing returns from increased rates of taxation.

Ah, but the new guys taken on will pay tax. The tax man never loses.

D and F :8

[TheKabaka]

sadly D+F you are probably right:*

[binsleepen]

From the cabin crew thread on the BA CC strike, there is discussion about the presentation that Willie Walsh gave on Wed during which he was asked about further cost reductions. He said:

On cabin crew, cost reductions would be achieved by existing cost savings plus New Fleet. He said that he didn't see much scope in further cost reductions as you can only reduce the business by so much. Indeed, he was looking to grow the business by, for instance, bringing four 747s back from storage.
If these four 747s are brought back is there enough slack within the pilot community to man/women them or would new recruitment be needed?

Regards

[ETOPS]

is there enough slack within the pilot community

For July we have a CAP of 91 hrs on the Captains status which would point to us being tight on manning levels. An additional 4 frames would require more P1s thus leaving vacancies below............

[Hotel Mode]

I don't have any big contacts but gossip at cranebank and elsewhere is for a small start to recruitment late this calender year.

Good luck.

[EGKK.]

If like me you were kicked out the hold pool a while back you were probably cheesed off but not surprised. :*

Well for me I'd still like to get there and hope that BA survives the current situation and grows and improves in time because I'd like a chance to fly a B777 or something alike possibly to destinations that I'd would never get to see and I don't want to move to the middle east to do so! :=

I still think my the best chance of that is at BA. As much as everyone loves to put a downer on the whole situation I'm trying to stay positive and I hope there's a few more of you out there. :ok:

So I've been thinking...rumour is that possibly, just maybe, They will recruit 1st-2nd quarter of next year.

So if you work it backwards from say April you will need 3months notice to your current company plus 2-4months to get an email or a call to ask you to come in for a chat (hopefully just a chat). (I've assumed BA will give us 2-3months notice to prepare for the assessment/chat)

So looking at this through rose tinted glasses we could get a call or email come the end of this year.

Some may think I'm mad but hey, i still want it :}

Thoughts people...

[Propellerhead]

EGKK, fingers crossed you'll not be too far wide from the mark. Good interview with Willie Walsh here

Jun 10: Willie Walsh of BA - full interview - view from the top - companies - FT.com (http://video.ft.com/v/91228079001/Jun-10-Willie-Walsh-of-BA-full-interview)

in which he is very upbeat and positive and talks about aviation being a growth industry. Hopefully the new tax rules will see a large number of Captains taking part time, perhaps a few more retirements next year, plus there is talk of expansion of Long Haul at LGW and possibly London City long haul. Also rumours of 747s coming back from the desert (maybe to cover for 777s doing more routes out of LGW)? All speculation at the moment.

Think short haul will stay depressed for a while. The Iberia merger could help BA be more positive in expansion with a more secure financial future.

That's the postive outlook, but just wish it would hurry up and actually happen!

[qwertyuiop]

On the other hand, the new APD rates will hit longhaul hard and Spain is in a total mess.

What a sad world it is when we want to see pilots being taxed out of work.

[binsleepen]

Any other 'Hold poolers/we'll ring you first, promise' get the email today? Any thoughts? positive or negative? In my view at least they haven't forgotten us!

Regards

[billybuds]

Positive in my opinion. Firstly, as you said, it is good that they haven't forgotten about us. And I also don't think they would go through the hassle of finding a chap to take over JM's role if recruitment is not going to be in the not too distant future.

[Propellerhead]

Anyone care to expand on what was said? Have they found a replacement for JM or are they looking now? How long before they start recruiting did they say?

[evian]

E mail, was just to hand over to the new man in charge, also said there are some positive signs in the far and middle east. New man now our point of contact and JM also said as the aviation business is small that our paths were bound to cross in the future.

Having spoken to friends in BA this is what I make of the e mail:

There have been several rumors recently about BA and when they are likely to recruit. I suspect that some people may have emailed JM to confirm their interest in the company. The email therefore is to inform of the new chap, his role is more that just recruitment, it's also internal fleet transfers and I think organizing the training.

Though I would love them to recruit soon, friends say a small amount of recruitment in spring of next year. I find that an odd time as you wouldn't be on line till the end of the summer!!

Paul Nichols is the new man in charge and it is thought he was happy to disband Hold pool/we'll ring you first, promise, I think he was just going to let everyone have to apply again in the normal way. Though I have heard that there are people in his department who are working hard for us ex holdpoolers so that we may not have to jump every hoop. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Wirbelsturm]

The 'rumour' from within is that BA will be looking to recruit at some point in 2011. In addition the company seems to be running up, albeit slowly, the recruitment team in readiness.

As to the taxation issue, the Budget that netted the tax man the best returns was that which reduced the higer rate of income tax to 40%.

This gave the Governemt a smaller slice of a much, much bigger pie as people were more willing to work hard in order to retain money in their pocket and not have to hand it all to the tax man. Removing those from the top end of the 40%-50% bracket will require a considerable number more workers earning in the 22% bracket to net the same revenue.

All told a system not beneficial to the tax man and downright unfair to those who lose their tax free earnings as well giving s substansive tax payment in that bracket of £100,000-£110,000 of about 68%. Especially as the nice man at HMRC still has the wording 'everyone in the UK is entitled to a basic tax free sum'. Not quite true.

[Junta Leader]

Any other ex-hold poolers get a email/letter today?

[Busbar]

Junta Leader,

Can you expand on your post? Did you receive something today? If you did would you mind sharing it? I have a big decision to make shortly!

Thanks in advance :ok:

[evian]

Yes I got the e mail, not the best of news, here's what it said.......

"We last wrote to you on 21st July 2009 and I thought it would be helpful to update you on our pilot recruitment plans for the next 2 years.

Based on our forecast flying for summer 2011, I’m in a position to confirm that we will not be recruiting any pilots in the current financial year. Current projections support a modest requirement for pilots in mid to late 2011.

I recognise this represents a protracted period since you originally attended pilot selection and your career aspirations may have changed in the meantime. Our own pilot selection criteria are also likely to be different to those we used during our last pilot recruitment campaign and we will make this information available when we launch our campaign in 2011.

When we commence pilot recruitment, we will advertise through normal industry routes such as Flight International magazine and via the careers section of the British Airways Internet site. The purpose of this letter is to advise you that should the prospect of a career as a pilot with British Airways still be appealing to you and subject to you meeting the pilot recruitment criteria and qualifications applicable at that time, we would welcome an on-line application from you once the campaign re-opens."

[Junta Leader]

Thanks Evain, saves me copying it in - I suppose I could've been more considerate earlier!!!

Yes, not the best of news. I kinda see their point but am still disappointed nonetheless. Hopefully we'll be able to meet the 'new criteria'...

Best of Luck to all...

JL:}

[Busbar]

Thanks for the info guys, it is greatly appreciated!!

Good luck for when the scheme re-opens :ok:

[ltn and beyond]

ShinyTen,

Being type rated does not automatically mean you will fly your rated type at BA,
I was current on the bus before BA and they gave me a Boeing job.

Also some of my Bus pals still did a full Bus conversion at BA, to understand BA sop's and operation.

Good luck to all when we start hiring again :ok:

[License to Fly]

I think the thing to bear in mind with BA, is that things are constantly changing and recruitment could easily be larger than expected/earlier than expected ...

Friends of mine who interview, have said they have recently been contacted to see if they are still interested in doing it - BA would not be doing this if recruitment was still along way off.

Keep your glass half full and good luck everyone - its a good airline to be flying in:ok:

[flamingmoe]

Probably a silly question, given the amount of pilots in the hold pool, but are applications being accepted for future interviews?

[potkettleblack]

You never know maybe their HR department and Flight Ops talk to each other and their plan is to refill the hold pool and have a better gauge of experience levels/types flown, notice periods etc in order to bring people on line when required.

[SkyRocket10]

It seems the cogs are beginning to turn in the resource department. Rumours abound internally that we could see recruitment open ALOT sooner than expected. With recent good news & talk of city expansion, the upturn may finally be gathering pace.

[Junta Leader]

Will they still offer selection first to those that were in the hold pool a few years ago? Or will it be a free for all?

Based on the letter us ex-hold poolers got a little while back, I expect a free-for-all is in the offing.

Nice to see this thread back at the top though; any positive rumour like this is good for morale...

JL:}

[SkyRocket10]

Who knows, but from recent communications it would seem that no preference will be given to those previously in the hold pool.
There is talk of a number of changes to the previous requirements, which could be one reason for disbanding the hold pool. At this time there is no indication of what these changes are, but in all likelyhood it is probably an increase to hours req. I'm sure more news will follow in the next month or so.

[kingofkabul]

I happen to know for a fact that the pilot recruitment team at BA have been very busy this week discussing plans for Future pilot recruiment. However I have also heard that recruitment would not be until next year - anything can change though!

[Dan 98]

Good to see some positive news be it only rumours at the moment, what the industry needs!!!

Hopefully some of the Low cost carriers will get their act together and start offering some proper T&C's. :O

[SkyRocket10]

It seems DEP recruitment will open in the next few weeks. Apparently all recruitment will be for shorthaul at LGW & LHR, with initial figures of approx. 80-120 mentioned. Details to follow very soon.

[binsleepen]

That certainly sounds like good news. Shame they dispanded the hold pool only a month ago :{ Hopefully the T&Cs will be better than jet2s.

Regards

[Propellerhead]

I think that's a given that the Ts&Cs will be better than Jet2's!!

[maxalphaboy]

It seems DEP recruitment will open in the next few weeks. Apparently all recruitment will be for shorthaul at LGW & LHR, with initial figures of approx. 80-120 mentioned. Details to follow very soon.

Hey SkyRocket10

Just out of interest, where has this information come from?

MAB :ok:

[3Greens]

it's a rumour doing the rounds at Cranebank and on company forums. I'd say it's probably more than a rumour though IMO

[Nearly Man]

Better than Jet2's T&Cs! Are you mad? :E

[ba038]

Recruitment to start end of this year or early next year.Not quite sure on how many needed.Source - word of mouth.

[kingofkabul]

Unless something has changed since last week, I would be very surprised if there was any recruitment in the next few weeks. My source is something of an authority on this. But, there are def plans to recruit from very early next year. Like I said before, anything can change.

[Vone Rotate]

Is it the case that only Oxford cadets are excepted by BA on the DEP scheme if your low hours? Or is it another myth like it seems to be the case with the jet2 recruitment!

I went on the BA site and in the eligibility section it mentions nothing about min hours or preferred schools. Anyone elaborate on this?:confused:

[hollingworthp]

Vone,

The BA tie-up with OAA is in the distant past and there has been a change of recruitment manager at BA since (as far as I am aware) so all bets are off and it could be anything if/when cadet-type vacancies appear.

[Vrille]

I was chatting with a BA crew the other day. 2 747-400's are being pulled out of the desert with a possibility of an extra two in the coming weeks. They reckoned things could gather pace rather quickly!

[SkyRocket10]

When DEP recruitment re-opens I believe the experience requirements will be higher than last time around (supply & demand!). The requirements during the last period of recruitment were for a minimum of 500hrs on company types, or 750hrs+ on heavy turbo-prop upwards.
Any low hour recruitment will probably continue as per the previous SSP scheme, which means recommended integrated cadets only.

[Abbey Road]

Due to the aforementioned "supply and demand", anyone who was previously in the BA hold pool will have to apply all over again - start from square one! Previous hold-pool candidates are not being given any preference over new applicants. However ...... if you were a previous pool candidate, and reapplied, I can't help feeling that would be a sign of 'continued interest', and would be viewed favourably. Nevertheless, you would still be competing against all applicants for the limited places. Harsh, but there you go ........

[Technical Question]

BA to open DEP recruitment scheme on 1st October 2010, with all jobs being advertised on the Job website. Initially only Shorthaul DEP vacancies. Good Luck!

[Deep and fast]

Well TQ if you are correct with your first post, then the silly season may just be starting again!

d and f :8

[Baron buzz]

TQ - Where have you got that information from? Is it true? I was led to believe from the holding pool guys that recruitment not likely till end of 2011.

BB

[3Greens]

I reckon it is correct. the recruitment team have got ground duties (i.e. interviewing applicants) allocated for the end of October on their rosters.

[pilotman330]

What will be the minimum criteria/Experience Required?

[Vulcan607]

I've heard min experience requirements are 1000 T.T with at least 500 on a turbine type which weighs at least 10 tonnes.

But that is hearsay........and thats why this is a rumour forum I guess.

I for 1 would luv to know!

All the best

[Dan 98]

Does anyone know days off in 28?

Approx starting salary for a SH FO?

Many thanks

[humanperformer]

currently 50 hours on A320, still got a way to go before they will consider me :hmm:

Ah well all good things come to to those that wait (i hope) :)

[brit bus driver]

Dan

On average, about 13 on SH but lots of variables depending on how you use your leave and Duty Free Weeks (4 and 2 respectively).

With the recent pay cut, reckon on taking home just over £3k on an average month (as a DEP).

HTH

[wlshwzd]

Heard this from the Cranebank cleaners friend down the pub

Jobs for short haul will be advertised in the beginning of October for end of November start dates.

[Jinkster]

Interview October, start November. With most people employed having to give 3 months notice - should be interesting!

[Chief Brody]

DEP FO SH after tax deductions et al and pension contributions (Im part of BARP) works out about 3.6 take home a month plus/minus 300.

Joined a couple of years ago (08) starting basic pay was (rounded) 48.5, then went up to 50.5 then went down :* to 49 after pay negotiations.

Put in the hours each month and you can make a grand plus in allowances on top of that. Though as there are a significant number of night stops on the SH network beware the dreaded Diners Club bill :uhoh: touching down in the porch.

There are healthy yearly incremental pay rises (I think annually on the day of joining?) - though granted we gave some back last year as part of the survival plan pay review, hence the tormented face above. These pay rises form part of the BA 'pay point' scheme 0 through 24 - ie after 24 years thats your lot Nigel.

SSP less so - for 5 years after joining their pay gradually comes in-line with DEPs until after the 5th year they're the same??

Am a DEPer myself so granted my understanding of the above sentence isnt tip top and I could be speaking out of my derriere to borrow the continental vernacular.

Also, for any roaming journalists considering the headline: Junior Pilot Earns 60k+ please remember this.....my dentist earns 200k a year and the worse he can do is extract the wrong tooth :}. A little perspective please....

Safe Flying,

CB

[757_Driver]

November start dates?

Makes you wonder why they don't just call those of us that are (or were!) in the holding pool then! Not got a problem with that, as it's their trainset so I'm more than happy to play by their rules, but it does seem a bit odd to go through this whole process when there are many of us sitting here already in a hold pool

Never mind, i've long since resigned myself to having to go through the whole process again, hopefully I can pass it again the 2nd time around!

Still the best, and most aspirational, employer in my book

[Dan 98]

Brit Bus Driver

That's great, thanks very much for that.

:ok:

[Sgt Wilson]

One thing you can be sure of folks, is that they will have got the numbers wrong again.

[SkyRocket10]

I heard from a management pilot that despite the email that went out to hold pool candidates, they will be given priority and re-interviewed first. Additionally, it was also mentioned that some weight will be given to the fact that they have already completed the process. Given this information I would expect the majority of the required 80-120 pilots to come from the hold pool, with limited opportunity initially for new applicants.
I'm not sure on the exact date recruitment will start, but the interviews should commence towards the end of Oct.
Good luck guys and girls!:)

[drfaust]

Word around the campfire is actually that HP'ers will have priority to do the selection, but that the requirements changed and that some of them will not be able to participate in the selection.

Really curious what the requirements are, but the person I spoke to (....eh yeah) told me that there is opportunity for everyone as long as you fit the minimum requirements. If that's that old "A UK issued JAA/CAA ATPL(F) with at least 750 hours recent experience on a jet/turboprop transport category aeroplane with a MTOM>10 tonnes or an approved seating configuration of not less than 20 seats" I'm sure there will be hordes of CV's on their desks.

Good luck passing the sift ... :ok:

[SkyRocket10]

A bit more info on expected changes to the requirements are that applicants in the first wave of recruitment will probably require time (500hrs+) on either 73X or A32X. All initial recruitment for shorthaul only.
Full details to follow 1st Oct.

[Dan 98]

If you are TR on a 73 (I am) and are successful and offered a job, will you automatically be put on the type you are rated on to save time or could you end up on the Bus at LHR?

Thanks

[SkyRocket10]

If you are TR on a 73 (I am) and are successful and offered a job, will you automatically be put on the type you are rated on to save time or could you end up on the Bus at LHR?

I would guess the idea behind this requirement is to save both time and cost, therefore as a rated 73 pilot you would almost certainly end up on the 737 at LGW.

[Dan 98]

Makes sense!

Cheers

[3Greens]

not necessarily so, eben though it kind of makes sense. Successful applicants will be doing the FULL DEP sim course in any case so even if one is 737 rated you will still do the full12 sim conversion.
BA have a past history of such things. the only possible cost saving would be that type rated pilots would probably require less line sectors.

[randomair]

During the last recruitment phase BA did in fact conduct a abbreviated sim/ground school course if you we're already type rated. (On the 76 anyway)

[SkyRocket10]

Same on the 737... I joined during the last round as type rated DEP onto the 737.. 2 weeks groundschool, 5 sims plus 2 for the LPC/OPC, then line training. Around 6 weeks from joining date to final line check!

I understand each person is assessed individually, however if you are current on type the abbreviated course of 5 sims will apply.

During the last recruitment phase BA did in fact conduct a abbreviated sim/ground school course if you we're already type rated. (On the 76 anyway)

Likewise when the last entrants joined on the airbus

[Dan 98]

All purely hypothetical of course as there is just the small bit of BA recruiting, me applying and making it through the paper sift let alone the assessment BUT....if i did make it would they look at it on an individual basis.

I am 73 rated TT1700hrs of which 1500 are on the 737 I Live in the Midlands and could make LHR work but have a son with special needs settled in a school so moving closer to LGW for a 73 job would be very difficult to say the least, I expect in the current climate it would probably not go in my favour..

Wait and see i guess..worry about it then!

[MrBernoulli]

This seen today, and apparently approved by BA for public viewing:

Flight Ops anticipate a requirement for pilots after 1 Apr 11 to support growth in the Summer and Winter 11 flying programme. A business case has been submitted to secure approval to recruit pilots in the FY 2011/12. The exact pilot establishment required is still uncertain but we do not anticipate the number required to exceed 100 pilots in the next 12 months.

It does appear that it will be type-rated pilots only, initially at least (for the first year?). I have seen no official confirmation what those types are, but previous posts suggesting A320/B737 sound feasible.

[fruitbat]

Advert for the pilot positions will appear on the BA jobs website on 1st OCT.

[Craggenmore]

Will BA be offering a final salary pension for new joiners..?

Will you have to work each weekend for roughly the first 5 years at the bottom of the seniority list..?

Are you able to join a tax-free BA share saving scheme..? What sort returns are people getting if so..?

Is time to short-haul command still in the region of 10 years..?

Thanks.

[fruitbat]

No

Probably, except leave, DFW etc

No

Yes

[Croft]

Slightly off thread, but does anyone have any guidance on whether you can actually apply to BA with a non-UK issued JAR licence ? I understand the requirement to ultimately convert over but can you submit the online application without a UK-issued licence in the first place ? I'm a UK passport holder with a JAR ATPL (Irish issued ...).

[bigdunc]

Well there will be lots of disappointed people if it's for shorthaul only...

[BusDriverLHR]

The word from some BALPA reps (and from the ex-head of pilot recruitment a few years) ago is this:

BA only ever recruit into positions for which there isn't a suitable internal candidate.
A suitable internal candidate is someone who:
1) meets the hours requirements (unfrozen ATPL for LH)
2) is un-type-frozen (when you join you are frozen on type for 5 years)
3) actually wants to move into the new postion

In practice this means that BA only ever recruit DEPs for longhaul if there aren't enough guys on SH that meet requirements 1 and 2 above (there's always enough to meet 3 ;))
During the last recruitment drive there were many on SH who wanted to move to LH but not enough had served their 5 year type freeze - hence DEPs going LH last time.

This time however things are different. Due to the recession and stagnation in the seniority list (due EU age regs which came in in 2006) SH guys have not been moving to LH at the end of their SH type freeze. There is a long queue of internal BA SH pilots who have unfrozen ATPLs and served their SH type freeze. Most of these guys want to move to LH asap, so it will be quite a while before there are any DEPs going to LH.

Of course this could change, but BALPA would not be pleased, nor would many current BA pilots. Thus far BA have been playing by the rules so I see no reason why that would change.

[Chief Brody]

BusDriverLHR

Whilst what your saying is spot on factually, word round the camp fire is that removing (and then immediately replacing with new pilots) 100 from the short haul fleet would place an almost unacceptable strain on the SH training department.

Hence, the possibility that a portion of new hires will go straight to LH.

I hope the conversation I overheard amongst top(ish) management was incorrect - but it did have within it the phrase "you cant please all the people all the time"

CB

[BusDriverLHR]

Chief Brody,

very true. I guess it'll come down to how quickly they need people. The last recruitment drive was far more substantial that what is being discussed at the moment and I think LH and SH training department coped fine then. Keep in mind that last time most of the new entrants to SH were SSPs, who required the full type rating and 40 sectors with a TC before being released. I would imagine that DEPs with at least 500hrs (whether type rated or not) would place considerably less burden on the training department than SSPs did.

So basically what I'm saying is based on current recruitment plans (or even a bit of an increase on what's planned) I think (and hope!) that the training depts will be able to cope while sticking to the agreement mentioned.

That said, should the company find itself in a situation where they need to recruit DEPs LH ahead of internal candidates then I'm sure BALPA will be reasonably flexible. Not something I relish the thought of though!

I hope the conversation I overheard amongst top(ish) management was incorrect - but it did touch have within it the phrase "you cant please all the people all the time"

Just to be clear, was this specifically in relation to taking LH DEPs ahead of existing SH pilots?

Cheers

[Chief Brody]

BDLHR

Yep,

In particular the 737 guys and gals at LGW - a significant portion of which are three stripers with elapsed engagement freezes.

Take them all away at once and fill the void with DEPers (be them rated or not) and the fit may hit the shan due to the burden placed on the 737 training dept.

My personal thought is that BA is a conveyor belt - you join as a FO SH and move steadily onwards from there. A DEP leapfroggin' this aint perfect but its the game we play - I sure wont loose any sleep over it.

CB

[zeddb]

Quick question for any BA pilots,

Would BA consider an "older" applicant for DEP, early 50's with plenty of prior experience of Airbus/Boeing?

Granted there would be cock all chance of command but that is not necessarily the be all and end all for everyone. Does anyone know of any prior examples?

If not, no point in spending hours filling in forms.


Thanks.

[BusDriverLHR]

CB,
good to hear you're so chilled out about the whole thing! I'm not losing sleep over it but a little concerned that some of the limited number of LH places will go to DEPs. Call me selfish but I know I'm not the only one who's been voicing concerns. I've no problem waiting a few months extra but to spend years more on SH while DEPs go LH would be a hard pill to swallow. Anyway, we'll see what happens.


Zeddb,
recruitment managers in the past have said they need to get 5 years out of a new pilot to make it worth employing and training them. With new EU age regs they probably can't discriminate on age grounds anyway. Either way you should be ok. There are certainly many older 2 stripers around BA, it's just not unusual. You never know, a SH LGW command or maybe 747 GSS might be achievable if you stay past 60.

[zeddb]

BusdriverLHR, thanks.

Might as well have a go then.

[Captain Mainwaring]

Zeddb

Do you have P1 time on Airbus/Boeing?

[Wirbelsturm]

The BA seniority scheme protects you if you start SH and then move to LH. If you spend 5 years on the bus and then apply for LH and your bid is valid then you will transfer. If there has been an influx of DEP pilots a year before you will still be above them in bidline and therefore have the ability to pick your work.

Seniority is king in BA so hanging back for LH from the start could cost you dear.

[nick14]

Afternoon folks, hope everyone is well,

I was just wondering whether a SH LGW FO roster is commutable from derby? are there many early flights and stanbys that would require a hotel? Its a 2.5 hrs commute.

Does anyone know if the hours requirement is going to increase to slim down the number of applications?

Many thanks

Nick

[Bail out]

Firstly I'd like to wish everyone good luck with what looks like another bout of recruitment at BA.

As a recent ex HP candidate I've got my fingers crossed that I meet the new criteria and get another shot.

Can anyone tell me if I will need to fill out a new online application or can I update my previous details? When I log in it's still all available.

Regards B

[tic tac]

Does every new hire at BA start as a 2 striper regardless?

Have you got any serious oldies still left in right seat, still waiting/ never going to get a left seat?

Are there many FO's who were jet skippers previously outside BA?

Thanks

[MrBernoulli]

Bail out,

Don't know for certain but with the 'noises' being made at various levels, it sounds like it will be a 'start at square on', afresh, with applications.

[Croft]

Bail Out

Can you advise what the application form (albeit from the last round or recruitment) says with respect to licence country issue ? I have an Irish-issued JAR ATPL and am on the verge of sending the forms to Gatwick to get it converted (yes, panicking !) - any steer on whether this is required simply to apply would be greatfully received.

Good luck this time around !

Croft

[Propellerhead]

CB, would you lose any sleep if BA offered direct entry LH commands, or is it only ok if the people getting screwed are below you?

[Chief Brody]

Propellerhead,

If you knew how low I was on the seniority list you too couldn't help but smile at the latter part of your remark.

I would also like to point out that I never said DEPers bypassing the initial SH posting was ok with me - thats an assumption on your part, a wrong one I might add.

For clarity though, I am a realist, I play the percentages and don't worry too much about those things I cant change.

Misses callin' me for dinner....

CB out

[Vulcan607]

only thing I have to ask is there going to be a specified minimum weight requirement from previous types flown???

thanks in advance

[Croft]

A quick follow up to my earlier post - can anyone advise if previous DEP application forms have outlined whether a non-UK issued JAR ATPL is acceptable at the application stage (with an undertaking to convert to a UK-issued licence if successful) ?

[3Greens]

croft

very unlikely im afraid. There are just going to be too many applicants who already have the required licence for BA to risk making you an offer. If you dont have the required paperwork at interview time i hughky doubt you will be offered a position. Sorry if thats not what you wanted to hear

[Toastal]

A Quick Q to those concerned. Where ARE you getting this "reliable" info regarding only 737/A320 drivers being candidates for this round of recruitment? This is irrelevant for BA, as all training is done in-house, with previous airbus guys getting sent to Gatwick on the 73 and visa versa to the bus at LHR.

Also, some are saying that newbees might go onto LH ahead of some of the shorthaul guys, again, where does your specific 320/737 rating come into play here?

I'm sorry to open old wounds but, the hold pool was disolved for a reason (why I don't know). Why would the company decide to give those previous swimmers first call? Some aren't even flying at the minute, and never have since the treading of water began!!!

Way too much speculation here, lets just wait and see what Oct 15th brings. May I wish you all the very best of luck with your applications, IF you meet the criteria.

T:suspect:

[wiggy]

Does every new hire at BA start as a 2 striper regardless?

Have you got any serious oldies still left in right seat, still waiting/ never going to get a left seat?

Are there many FO's who were jet skippers previously outside BA?



Yes.

Yes

There are a few.