Which aircraft are best for Firespotting and Aerial Survey?

[flog]

Hi all,

Having never done either, I was sitting here wondering what the requirements for firespotting and aerial survey aircraft are in terms of speed.

Is slower (<120kts) or faster (>150kts say) better suited for either / both operation?

Cheers,
Flog.

[kingtoad]

C210 to get there quickly and then loiter around with 1 stage of flap out at 80-90 knots.

[future.boeing.cpt]

Osprey, faster, and slower :P

but not really,

what kingtoad said.

[VH-XXX]

It really depends on your customer and the area that you are working in.

Some government bodies require twin engines for "safety" and possibly speed so that rules out your 210 to an extent.

Based on what I have seen from a local Aero Club that does fire spotting, they ditched using 210's and were last using a PN68 and 404 Titan mainly because of the speed. Once a fire is spotted they want to get there ASAP and check it out and decide on ground crews and aerial action.

If you're after something for "spotting" as such, then speed is your friend - but depends on your target area.

If you want something for observing and coordinating from an aerial perspective, then a 172 would do the job.

The club that I observed doing the spotting was using PPL's with the CFA observer which was a good way to clock up hours.

[timetime]

A Cessna 402 is a good ship not to flash if you have to climb high as takes a while.:ok:

[sthaussiepilot]

PA31's do an alright job....
Herd Dash8's are pretty good

Air Surveillance Australia has a Dash 8 dont they?


(Orions do a good job too :E)

[Snatch]

Would have thought that Fire Spottig and Aerial Survey require 2 completely dfferent aircraft.

The Aerial Survey companies all seem to use 400 series Cessnas and the odd Chieftain for the Photography - have even seen a Bongo :eek:

Fire Spotting seems to be done (by CALM WA and a few others) in Decathlons, Super Cubs, C172s, Bird-Dogs... long loiter time (not so long in the C305)

[mickjoebill]

How about a Diamond DA42?
Twin engine runs on avgas or diesel.
Very long loiter endurance up to 12 hours!
Comfy cabin great visibility in a turn:)

Lowish cost.
cruise 160 kias
stall 56 kias

Apparently ok on grass or dirt strips.


Mickjoebill

[Jamair]

I did some spotting in a C182; was pretty much ideal.... reasonable transit speed, short / rough field capable so could land pretty much anywhere, 6 + hours endurance, enough power, and good vision.

[Wally Mk2]

As far as fire spotting goes twins seem to be the norm here in Vic. C337 ideal & C404 for fire recon. I'd hate to be down there amongst the heat between the hills in a SE, pass:ok:


Wmk2

[185skywagon]

Depends what sort of survey you are going to do.
If it is animal counting type survey, then the C182/185/206 types are about the best.
Firespotting: something strong and well ventilated, I would imagine.

[povopilot]

You always seem to hear DSE, CFA and Lifeguard C337's and PN68's flying around vic when the weather is good, so i suppose they are the aircraft of choice around here.

That Lifeguard gig seems to be pretty decent, just fly up and down the coast all day in the sun!

povopilot

[Rotor n Wings]

I hear PN68 are good but before landing check the brakes and if you have none get ready for a fencing lesson. Now see if you can work this one out???

[future.boeing.cpt]

Would something like a Eurocopter Dauphin be ideal for fire surveillance, etc?
According to the magical Wikipedia, a company uses them for such a thing. Endurance and speed aren't too bad. Plenty of them are used for SAR..

Or would operating costs be too high?

[W00kiee]

Used to do fire spotting in a PN-68 and a Bongo. Our main contractual requirement was for a high wing twin.

[VH-XXX]

I would imagine that Dauphine would be a bit expensive along with anything but an R22. The PN68 and 337 would be lighter on the economy scale for running costs hence the popularity for such operations in Vic and they pass the tick for being a twin engine. Operating in often hot and high conditions the second engine would be reassuring. I'm led to believe that the 337 is the aircraft of choice for Life Safer ops due to the belief that in an engine failure / ditching that with the wheels up she will land safely on the water if required (due to the boat liek shape hull), versus a conventional twin, especially given the lower than usual altitudes.

[povopilot]

R n W, Ssshhhhh mate ;-). You'll have the armchair experts and the un-informed out in force before you know it.

[Mach E Avelli]

Not having actually done fire spotting, but some other aerial observation and mustering work in my youth, I kinda like tandem high wing machines like the Super Cub. Enough power when solo, good visibility from either side of the cockpit, open doors to keep cool and a low stall speed so if it quits at least you arrive at the accident slowly. Someone mentioned the C172. Compared with the Cub, for low level work at min speeds it would not be my first choice and if it was inevitable, I'd rather crash in a Cub anyday.

[multime]

Calm WA used to run supercubs but as time goes by Aeronica Scouts have proved their worth. Endurance @ mission capable.
As for survey. ? How much has the client got to spend and how does he/she want to achive an outcome that is postive.? Anything from 182,s, 206,s diamonds, fletchers. 402,414, shorts,casa,s the list goes on.

[gassed budgie]

I've flown a number of different aircraft whilst performing fire spotting duties. 150 (I'm not kidding, we were forced to during the fuel contamination debacle), 172, R172K, 182, R182, 206, 210, PA24-260, PA28-160, PA28-180, PA32R-301, PA31-350, PA34, PA38 (dreadful), C33, V35A, A36 and some others that I can't remember.
A lot of the firespotting I've had to do was in the A36. Some air observers/air attack supervisors had issues with the wing being on the 'bottom'and obstructing their view of things. In reality it was never a problem. If you're going around in circles over a fire in a 182 for example, you constantly have to lift the wing to keep the fire in sight. That doesn't happen in the A36. And when you sit there and actually take note of how much ground the wing hides, it's not a lot. If you lean forward slightly you can see straight down past the leading edge of the wing.

The 172 is OK if your just keeping station over a fire, but if you're constantly having big changes in altitude where you might be checking some aspect of the fire and then climbing back up to altitude where things are a bit cooler and a bit smoother, they're a dead loss. You only just get back up there and then down you go again. There's also an issue with the amount of power you have on tap and hence the aircraft's performance (or lack of it). I've only been caught out twice at a fire over the years and one of those incidents was in the 172 and it was due mainly to only having 160 horses to play with. It nearly just wasn't enough.

A coulpe of the poster's above mentioned loiter time/endurance. I won't spend any longer than fours hours max over a fire. It can be hard work out there some days and after that period of time you can start to feel rather fatigued. Both crew members by then are pretty keen to get back on the ground and have a rest. If the aircraft has a six hour endurance, we don't tell anyone!

Personally, it's never worried me in the slightest about operating a single over a fire. If the engine is going to throw a wobbly the aircraft would be put down in the black stuff. It's not going to burn again (the terrain that is). Having said that, a twin might be nice if you're operating up in the high country. But over the hundreds of square miles of flat mallee scrub, for me at least, it's never been something to worry about.

If you fly a recce of the local fire district and do 'one with the lot' it's a distance of just a bit over 500NM. That's around 3 hours in a R182/210/A36 or 5 hours in the 172. The 210 or the A36 might be the way to go. But the real question is, which one of those makes more dollars for you?

But to answer Flog's question, it'd be either the 182RG the 210 or the A36. They've all got enough power to keep you out of trouble. They all carry a good load. They're all reasonably fast. And if you have to sit over a fire for awhile, you can wind all three back to 80 kts without any bother.
But for me it would be the 210 (as much as I love the fabulous A36). It's got two more seats way down the back than the 182RG, if you have to take a crew somewhere. You also get to sit in the shade. The A36 can be hot inside the cabin on a hot day. And let's be honest, only girls fly their A36's with curtains on the insides of the windows!:E

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/1121/dscn0080mc5.jpg

There you go. A36 on fire spotting/air attack duties.

[ilikeit]

nice photo of linga!

The 182rg was the best

[Stationair8]

Cessna C172 ideal if operating over low terrain, Cessna 182 if operting around high terrain and need a bit more performance and if in tiger country a C337, AC500 or P68 are my choice.
Done well over 500 hours in the trusty C172 on firespotting and it does a pretty good job, with two people on board and six hour endurance.

[737 wannabe]

And once the fire has been spotted call in the cavalry...

YouTube - DC-10 Air Tanker Drop Over Humboldt Fire (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ob-8iqeP1mw&feature=related)

[shorty81]

Ever thought of A Seabird Seeker, at Patrol Speed (65kts) can do 6hrs endurance or normal speeds about 4.5 hours endurance.

Shorty81

[Flying Binghi]

Heck, 3 years already..:eek:


Ever thought of A Seabird Seeker...

Wondering how they is gettin on with the gimbal FLIR/SWIR mounted Seabird demo'ed to some govmint departments recently..?





.

[Trim Stab]

We have a DA42M in our survey fleet in Africa and it is my favourite survey aircraft. First, it has a stick and levers to ailerons and elevator so is very crisp and precise to control in turns and on the lines. Also, as somebody else pointed out, fantastic visibility in the turns, and also good ground visibility on the lines. It runs on Jet A1 which is widely available, can cruise to the survey ground at 160-70 knots TAS, and then loiter there for hours at speeds as low as 65 knots comfortably.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Ever thought of A Seabird Seeker, at Patrol Speed (65kts) can do 6hrs endurance or normal speeds about 4.5 hours endurance.


Go the party bus (PN68). Spare engine, 9.5 hrs endurance and much better ventilation in the newest models, gets there faster, loiters longer, cameras can be deployed and retracted (IR, coronal discharge, hyperspectral etc...), high wing and the observer is available if the bubbled observation windows aren't enough.:ok:

DA42? Little company called Airborne Technologies in Austria is run by Diamond's former Manger. Sure his opinion is qualified. They have a (severance) DA42 Guardian that has big label on the nose saying "Airborne Technologies prefers Technam.":}

(They are developing a specialised 2006 surveillance platform.)

[yr right]

Bae has a tecnam they brought for fire work. Trouble is with all the gear in it it's over weight pmsl. Spent a cool $1mil on it. Think it's done less than 10 hours. Then had a nose gear that would not retract and done a nose scrap at Tamworth. Sat in the hangar since. Has two electrical systems. One 12 v and one 24v what a cock up. Two of everything including battery's.

Cheers

[Brisbane Sinner]

I know a pilot who flew a P-51 in fire spotting duties in Alaska many many years ago. I was surprised to hear that fire spotters were needed way up there. Apparently, the Black Spruce forests were quite flammable at times.
Fire spotting in a Mustang - beats instructing or meat bombing...

[jet_pilot00]

One important part of survey aircraft selection is influenced by the system being installed. One company is limited to below 125kts for 90% of their survey work. That speed restriction is due to Lidar system requirements which all boil back to accuracy and content of data. PN68 seems to be ideal due to it's size/endurance/speed range. Next to zero ventilation makes it hard work though in summer!

Tecnam has the MMA. Not enough useful load or size in my opinion to fit in a lot of the survey systems out there + an operator + have mission endurance. Especially if you are off on tours for days/weeks.

http://www.f-air.cz/data/mma/tecnam_mma_folder.pdf

Looks neat though!

[Howard Hughes]

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

Only aircraft for fire spotting is the Edgley Optica, good luck finding one though! ;)

http://chivethebrigade.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/edgley-optica-500-2.jpg

[Trojan1981]

I have flown the C-182, ACA Scout and PN-68 on aerial spotting and firespotting/air attack sorties. IMHO the Scout was by far the best for low-level stuff. Good power to weight and endurance, fast (?) enough for the area covered while capable of very slow speeds when required to loiter. It's also able to land just about anywhere and is very, very cheap.

That said, It did get very crowded at LL over a fire sometimes, particularly when trying to work under a step in suburban interface areas. You'd often have orbiting and/or streams of fixed wing bombers, helitaks and firebirds, bird dogs and news helicopters all sharing the same patch of sky with minimal, visual separation. I think it's time we moved beyond that and into high-level detection and attack supervision platforms. Aircraft fitted with EO sensors and voice/data link back to a command centre. That way fire commanders can be kept entirely in the loop, in real time, with a minimum risk to combat agency personnel.

The DA-40 can do it, but it's endurance is not great once you put some payload aboard and it's not the most reliable machine. I know someone had a BN-2T Islander fully equipped but I'm not sure if thats still running. Maybe a PC-12, 'van or PAC-750 if you can go SE?

[tail wheel]

Interesting thread.

I think our experts over five years have recommended every aircraft type ever built, except the Wright Flyer, a Supermarine S.5 and Concorde.

:}

[Omega471]

This season in the Gulf we used 5 x AC50's
Perfect aircraft for the job, 5-7hrs per day for 7 weeks

[Bankstown Boy]

I do think that either a U2 or SR71 would probably top the charts as the most ... ahem ... 'practical' survey aircraft but most clients wouldn't like the hourly bill.

[catseye]

well on one fire someone used an F111 at night. very good imagery but a bit hard to get the DACC request signed.

337 is pretty good for fixed wing and the mighty 500 for rotary.

[dhavillandpilot]

Funny how this discussion has re appeared. Couldn't have something to do with the current NAFC tender due on Tuesday.

As a tip, have a look at the AC 685, with the extra fuel tanks.

Can do 200kts to get to task, then loiter for around 7 to 8 hours at 45% power. The only problem you end up with is crew duty time and crew BLADDER time.