Passengers 'upgrading' themselves - what do you do?

[jghill]

Out of curiosity, I started a thread on a frequent flyier Forum earlier - and I wondered whether Cabin Crew have any amusing stories on the subject! (I love air travel and love hearing amusing stories about the goings on even more!)

Have you ever dealt with passengers who simply 'upgrade themselves' by moving to business/first class seats?

What did you do? Any funny stories?

I couldn't do this, the fear or getting caught and marched back, red faced, is more than enough deterrent!

[AirborneSoon]

Happens all the time. You politely and firmly inform them that they may not sit in that seat and tell them to return to seat they have paid for.

I don't understand this mentality at all. Would you walk into a supermarket, pay for a carton of eggs then march back in and help yourself to cheese, milk and bread without paying for it? No, because you know it is called stealing.

Just because a seat on an airplane is unoccupied doesn't mean it belongs to you. It belongs to the airline and it's not for you to decide what will happen to it. A business class\first class seat is a product, the same as cheese in your supermarket. Having that seat empty if it hasn't been sold is worth quite a lot to the airline and to everyone else who has paid for the experience of sitting in that section. If you had just paid 400% more than everyone else on that plane you would not want someone on an economy fare sitting next to you.

If you want caviar then pay for it. If you'd rather pay less than enjoy the experience that you have paid for, which includes middle seats, less legroom and a full cabin.

I do not see someone upgrading themselves as fun and cheeky. I see them as someone who is not prepared to pay for the experience and is therefore entitled only to the economy seat they have paid for.

[Rush2112]

I know people who have done it, but I wouldn't have the nerve.

I also know I would be less than impressed if, having paid good money for Business Class, some herbert took it upon himself to just sit there.

[OzzieO]

Ask the passenger to move back to their original seat. If they refuse inform the passenger that you are going to ask the skipper to call the police to meet the aircraft as they have commited an act of theft and refused to comply with a crewmembers request.

[gadgetman]

You can be nice about it, show them the features of the seat and service, as if they're just checking it out in case they'd like to travel there next time. It can avoid embarrassing them (if they pass the attitude test that is), and who knows maybe earn extra revenue for your airline in the long run.

Or just ask them if they'd prefer to pay with cash or credit card for the upgrade, usually sends them scuttling back.

When they try the "Well nobody else is sitting here, why can't I?" routine, ask them if you mind if you use their house while they're away on their trip.

Threatening to hand them over to police/security is pretty much a last resort.

[Jumbo744]

Or just ask them if they'd prefer to pay with cash or credit card for the upgrade, usually sends them scuttling back.

is it actually possible to do this? pay for a first class ticket while in flight?

[EYXW]

certainly is at some airlines - I personally only took cash.... kidding - at my previous employer you could pay for an UG with a credit card at a rate which was about 1/10 the full fare price so for instance M class to J class was £600 and M Class to F Class was £800 and some variations in between.

It is/was a cheap but unconfirmed way to get a better seat however you couldn't always provide the upgrade if for instance catering/other products were not available onboard - not just a seat availability issue.

[Jumbo744]

thanks, good to know :ok:

[Gallimero]

We usually count our pax and check for any discrepancy on the PIL. It is very easy on Short and Medium Haul and in First because there is a limited number of pax. In bigger cabins we simply count the pax after T/O. After that you would immediately spot any ''new entry'', since you got to know the pax in your working zone.
It didn't happen to me often, usually on SH-MH, and every time politely informed the pax he made a mistake and asked to move back to the original seat.

[SLF3b]

I was in economy next to some one who was 'size challenged'. Less than ecstatic at the prospect of several hours with him spilling over into my seat, but the flight was pretty full so decided (without much hope) to keep quiet and look for an empty seat after take-off. He started a campaign for an upgrade on the basis there was insufficient room for him. After a fair old rant the CSD came and agreed it was unreasonable to expect him to sit next to another passenger - and asked me (almost apologetically) if I had any objection to an upgrade. Beautifully done. The guy was furious - he had obviously got away with it several times before. Made my day.

[flyin_phil]

i was coming back from SVO to LHR with aeroflot, when a number of people were asking if they could sit up the front, i mean the cheek of it, i would never do such a thing, even on staff travel i was always happy to sit at the back (always like to sit just behind the wing, dont know why, but i always sit there). why cant people just put up with where they are sitted? if they dont like the seats they are in, check in earlier maybe? lol. makes me laugh watching them though, gives u a bit of amusement before u fly :}

[flyin_phil]

He started a campaign for an upgrade on the basis there was insufficient room for him. After a fair old rant the CSD came and agreed it was unreasonable to expect him to sit next to another passenger - and asked me (almost apologetically) if I had any objection to an upgrade. Beautifully done. The guy was furious - he had obviously got away with it several times before.

brilliant :D

[VAFFPAX]

brilliant :D

I second that. I find such behaviour unacceptable, both as a SLF and as someone working in a similar industry. We didn't get into Club/Premium/Upper/First by cheating our way in, we earned it fair and square by either paying for it, or the airline rewarding us.

S.

[AirborneSoon]

Just remember you are special, and so are the other 200 odd passengers on the flight...:E

[Snoopy]

Saw a case on a flight from HKG to PEK on a Chinese airline. They asked the offending passenger for his boarding pass. He said he had lost it but insisted he was in business class. The crew finally gave up arguing and the passenger sat down smugly in business class. When we arrived in Beijing the police came on board and frogmarched him off the plane. The look on his face was priceless and not smug at all anymore....:)

[PC767]

The majority of people who do this know they are 'chancing it' and when caught accept their fate with good humour.

But occassionally I get the odd one who finds it incredulous that if seats are empty they cannot use them. I usually ask what would happen if they went to a BMW dealership and bought and paid for a 3 series car. Upon collection they see a top of the range 7 series car sat unoccupied on the forecourt. Do they suggest to the salesperson that the car isn't been used so I might as well take it instead of my 3 series. What do they believe the response would be.

As I said, this is a rarely used back up tactic. A complementary newspaper of glass or bubbly and a cheeky grin resolves most issues amicably.

[Bucket]

I have to say that when I am positioning in uniform, the CSD on all the BA flights I have ever flown on has always kindly and discreetly upgraded us. A really wonderful way to start or finish the day. :D

But one question for CC here (specifically any CSD's). If I'm not in uniform (sometimes because its packed away) or I'm flying for personal travel what is the most polite way of enquiring about the possibilities of an upgrade? I fly long haul to see close family and a quiet corner in club would be much appreciated.

Would a hand written note with my ID help?

;)

[Seat62K]

Slightly off-topic, I know, but on one occasion flying Club World from Hong Kong to London a fellow-passenger persisted in arguing with a flight attendant over something (others were trying to sleep) to the extent that the crew decided to upgrade him to First, presumably for some peace. I did wonder whether this was a technique he used to obtain an upgrade. I was pleased to see the back of him but never got to know what he was complaining about.

[VAFFPAX]

They should've upgrades you and the people around you. Not him. :-)

S.

[AirborneSoon]

Unfortunately the annoyance factor pays dividends for some and that is why they persist in it. But you do find by and large people who habitually complain stress themselves unnecessarily and don't get the best of anything. You just don't bring out someone's compassion, understanding or thoughtfulness by complaining at them.

We all get irritated by little unavoidable things (slow queues, don't get the seats we want etc) but you've got two choices. You can decide its a small irritation and not get worked up about it, thereby having a better day. Or you can ruin your whole week over it by huffing and puffing, rolling your eyes and feeling extremely put out by every small thing.

This is life, stuff like this is going to happen often and if you decide to feel personally victimised and want compensation everytime it does happen you'll have a very unpleasant life.

Upgrades happen, but they are rare and are just someone's good luck if they do. If it happens to you sit in the seat, enjoy the experience and tell your grandkids about it for the next 30 years. Appreciate the fact you got something for nothing, that's rare in life. However, there is no way to ensure you continually get upgraded for free and nor should you expect it. If you want to guarantee yourself that experience then pay for it. It's not as painful as you think it is.

Sorry it's a little off-track, but I was inspired by the previous post to go there.

[thefieldings]

to avoid avoid pax to move from club to First, best it is to be at teh gate and accompany all your first pax individually to their seat in first, therefore you know who is seating where, and also crew in the first galley can that no pax wondering around on their own to First. Most of teh time on BA, First cabin crew will meet their pax at the boarding door.
Otherwise when they try to upgrade themself from WT/P to club, big no no.... Just politly invit them to regain their seat and if they are difficult, tell them that now they wont seat anywhere as you are about to offload them!

[malagamike]

some years ago i flew from lgw to lax with virgin. i was booked in economy and traveling on my own. when the flight was fully boarded a family who had arrived towards the end of check in closure had not been allocated seats together (because there were none - cabin almost full) started complaining to the cabin crew that they could not sit for such a long journey without being close to their children. the children were not very young, probably about 13 or 14 years old. anyway, the mother was demanding to the cabin crew that she MUST be sat with her children. i stopped one of the cabin crew as she was walking down the aisle looking for the odd empty seats to see if she could accomodate, and advised her that i was travelling on my own so if she needed me to move to help accomodate the family from hell i had no problem. she thanked me and asked me to move into the back galley, she would sort the family out and then advise me which seat was empty for me.
after about a 5 min wait she came back and thanked me again and said that she would take me to my seat. she walked me through the economy cabin, through the upper economy cabin and showed me to an empty seat in upper class! i was so chuffed. she put my hand baggage away for me and showed me how to use the features of upper class cabin and thanked me again for offering to move seats and told me i,d made her day a lot more easy.

[13 please]

malagamike,

I think that's absolutely fair enough.!!

As crew, it's lovely when pax can see that there's an issue, and offer to help. I love being able to thank people like this.:ok:

[Tigger_Too]

Challenging day for the crew of BA392 yesterday. Busy flight and two instances of Traveller pax sitting in Club.

One was fair enough - young Mum with two small children who genuinely (I think) thought that she could take two empty seats. Discretely handled by the crew, who also carried one of the youngsters to the correct seat.

Also well handled, not so discretely, was the waster who was trying it on. Prolonged argument with CC - "Can't find my boarding pass. Seat's empty, why can't I just stay here?". Firmly handled - "No you can't! 22C is near the back. Off you go, there's a good chap!"

And then it got really bizarre. Five minutes out of Brussels, seat belt signs on for the last five minutes. Old chap unstraps and starts to 'adjust his dress'. Ended up in the aisle with his trousers round his ankles. He got more attention than the safety video, I can tell you!

Well done to the crew! Hope the remaining legs were easier.

[Admiral346]

It happened recently on a flight MUC-CDG, running an hour late. A passenger decided to sit down in Business with his Eco ticket, claiming it to be compensation for the delay..
The FA asked him twice, nicely to move to the seat asigned to him. We had engines running, slot ticking, so I decided not to go back there when the FA came to the front the third time, telling me the PAX would like to know the Captains name and was not going to move...
I got out a business card with my name on it, gave it to the FA and told him to let the passenger know that after this time, his next choice would be to leave the aircraft voluntarily or in handcuffs.
After all, upgrading yourself does constitute fraud.

Nic

[boeing baby]

Had a well known deaf actress on a flight from LAX to SYD a few years ago who decided that First looked much nicer that than the JCL seat she had been allocated, so she reseated herself!
When it was noticed that she had done this the CSM politely went up and explained to her that she could not do this! She played dumb and pulled the "I'm deaf and can't understand you card".
The CSM calmly walked away and wrote it all down on piece of paper for her. At this she went "spare" yelling and ranting! "Don't you know who I am?" "How dare you insult me by writing things down, Im deaf not stupid!" etc!! The CSM simply wrote on the same piece of paper "police will meet you in Sydney!"
She moved faster than a rat up a drainpipe!! Would have been the most publicity she has had in a while!!

[Final 3 Greens]

This behaviour is reprehensible and I have no respect for anyone who tries it on.

Noticing Malaga Mike's post, I once voluntarily gave up 1C for a gentleman who had developed breathing problems and took his seat in economy for the remaining 90 mins of the flight - seemed the right thing to do, as there was more space for the crew to administer O2 etc.

Quite often, I'll offer to swap row 1 with elderly or disabled pax in other rows in business, as the extra legroom makes them a little more comfortable.

But try to get into a cabin I hadn't paid for, no.

[robtheblade]

I was returning from a weekend in New York with my wife. The queue at check in went on for ever and the time for our flight to Manchester was fast approaching. A BA staff came down the line asking for Manchester pax. Phew, bout time. Anyway, he said the flight was overbooked and would we go to LHR and take the shuttle to Man. Of course we would be upgraded, could use the Terrace Lounges and a car would get us home.

We had dinner in the lounge, got super seats and after a couple of glasses of champagne lay back the seats and had a good nights sleep. So good my wife had to be woken as we were approaching Heathrow. After breakfast we got the shuttle to Man, a Merc car took us to our door. All in all, a perfect flight with perfect service.

As soon as we got through the door my wife gave me an almighty ear full and that there was no way she would do that again as we got home two hours later than originally planned.

So much nicer being single again :-)

[alwayslookingup]

I once heard that the Queen's younger sister Princees Margaret, when travelling to Mustique from London with her retinue, allegedly always had herself booked into what was then BA Economy class. :(

This was done in the full knowledge that, once recognised, they would automatically be upgraded to first class. It was thought that it would be unthinkble for BA her to have travelled in economy class with the proles :D

Can anyone on here shed any light on this, or is it just urban legend?

[angels]

rob - belter of a first post mate!! :ok:

[amanoffewwords]

But try to get into a cabin I hadn't paid for, no.

I once tried to get myself downgraded from Business to Economy on a BA flight from JBurg - same problem := from the ground staff and double :=:= from the CC. It works both ways..

[DIA74]

Not quite the same thing, but we had a pax at LHR who refused to sit next to a a black girl for a long haul. He said his company did a lot of business with us and demanded an upgrade. The crew called me on board to help and I suggested I discuss it with him in the gate lounge. When I got him there I informed him we would not fly him anywhere. He was offloaded. Luckily we were able to offload his bags fairly quickly. He threatened us with legal action but it didn't materialise. I asked the young black lady if she would be our guest in First as we were embarrassed by the man's behaviour. She declined but after t/o the crew did persuade her to go up front. We rebooked the offending pax on a rival carrier the same night - but seated in an area where there was a large delegation of businessmen from Africa!!! And the carrier's staff were all told to make sure he did NOT get a seta move! Obnoxious pax beware - we have ways of getting back at you!!

[Brian Abraham]

Obnoxious pax beware - we have ways of getting back at you
I know. Had a scheduled stop at an intermediate port where the 773 went tech - full to the brim and at 1000 hours. In the terminal two staff were valiantly trying to arrange onward travel on other carriers when one sod decided they weren't doing enough to look after HIM. Got quite vocal, 6' 6" at least and fat, so I went and told him to pull his head in and stop being such a prat, nicely of course :E, as the staff were doing their best. On walking down the finger to the restaurant to make use of the lunch voucher which had been given, he followed me with the invitation to step outside and "we'll settle this like men" (I'm all of 5'7", 11 stone). Not taking any notice he then attempted to trip me but only resulted in a glancing kick to the ankle following which he took off. While having the meal a couple of the boys in blue wandered in, saw me, came across and confirmed who I was and asked for details of the incident - had been reported by staff. I pointed out the sod, also in the restaurant, and after asking if I wanted to press charges for assault (said no, but the after thought was should have as he probably practised his technique pinching lunch money off kids in the school yard using his bulk as intimidation) they went to interview him. We finally got a flight out at 1900 and guess who was the last to board? And guess where his seat was at? In the very last row so he had to get from the front to the back with every last passenger sniggering. I wonder who arranged that? What he didn't know, and nor I until later, was that as I walked down the finger with this nitwit in my ear, my travelling companions, the governor of one of our less salubrious (hard case) prisons and a warder from same, were following him lest anything untoward happened.

[JINJI9]

Happened to me some years back - I'm retired now. Denver - London, the CSD came up and told me a passenger had moved from Traveller to Club, wrapped himself completely in a blanket, and would not respond when they addressed him. I went back and spake unto him at rather higher volume, inviting him to return to the seat for which he had paid. He said he needed a good night's sleep, and would pay for the upgrade. I said ''No problem'', wished him ''Goodnight'', and sent an ACARS message to a very useful department called Revenue Protection asking them to meet the flight.

You've probably guessed what happened next - when he met up with the RP people, he refused to pay -''What are you going to do - put me in gaol?'' The accompanying Security Officer clicked on his radio and replied,''No problem, Sir, the police will meet us at immigration.'' He paid.

Oh, and by the way, he'd left his wife down the back. I'll bet that was one happy holiday.:O

[Phil1980's]

I confess...I was on the A380 in Economy and after landing decided to sit on the seat...I didn't eat any food...would I be a bad person

[damo1089]

jinji9: "I went back and spake unto him at rather higher volume"

haha.
...Spake

[Rhyspiper]

Surely the "Herbert" would just laugh at you as they would know full well that "Old Bill" would probably not give 2 S**ts!

[CornishFlyer]

alwayslookingup: (http://www.pprune.org/members/183409-alwayslookingup)

Unfortunately, this happens very frequently :(

[alwayslookingup]

Cornish,

and I thought it was just urban legend! Are talking only about royal Family, or all manner of Z list celebs who deliberately book world traveller fully expecting to be upgraded. Do tell what happens if they don't get an upgrade?!

[CornishFlyer]

I've not known of any occasion where a member of the Royal family hasn't been upgraded but some Z listers can really kick off about it. Take a look thru this thread and you'll see what I mean: http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/300180-who-your-nicest-celebs.html :ok:

[Businesstraveller]

There seem to be enough places on the inter-wily-web claiming to give good pointers about how to get free upgrades (dress smart casual, ask descretely at the gate etc). I've always been sceptical about the success rate of most - the only guarenteed option given is to use airmiles - so not a free upgrade then!
I split my trips between Economy/Business pretty equally - try not to smirk when self important travellers have the 'walk of shame' to the other side of the bulkhead after being told in no uncertain terms that they can't have that inviting seat near the front.

[bear11]

A long-haul Captain mate tells a story of one of his flights where a moron ran from economy to business class and installed herself during take off!! On being told, the captain instructed the crew to completely ignore the individual during the flight, and the hungry person was met at the door by the local Stasi on arrival.:p

[henkybaby]

I have seen the self upgrade done successfully twice on the BLR-CDG (AF) route. The second cabin of the A330 is almost always completely empty so I always take a seat there (as a regular C pax). More often than not an pax from whY moves up there, settles in full sleep mode in 10 seconds and pretends to be fast asleep. The FA's always try to awake them or argue with them but they (always Indian pax) just become very agressive and the (often all female) cabin crew just leave them there.

Last time when I asked "why? how? but?" they just shrugged and said "it happens so often we get tired of fighting it".

Never ever was there police waiting for them at CDG. Pretty piss poor handling I think.

[Spotthedog]

The only time I have ever in my life been upgraded was on Syrian Arab airlines (many years ago!) on a lightly loaded 747SP where the stewardess asked me if I, and the couple of people I was with, would mind moving from economy to the business section near the front of the aircraft "in order to balance the plane for take off"!

I was surprised as I'm not that big a person! But as I recall I didn't object at the time.

[Munnyspinner]

I will confess.

I have pulled this a few times although most of my travel is domestic and therefore classless I did have a great return trip from La Corruna courtesy of Iberia.

Having literally stepped of a yacht after 10 days as sea I caught a taxi straight to the airport with no idea how I was to get back to London for meetings the following day.

I managed tp get the last economy seat on a flight to Madrid with an onward connection to LHR. On boarding I found I was to be sandwiched between Mrs Attila the hun and her toothless Husband. Pausing at the curtains that designate business/first from the cheap seats on the A320 I was ushered into the second row by a steward who didn't bother to check my lowly status. I didn't feel the need to disabuse him of this error and enjoyed a champagne fuelled trip to Madrid.

On the next leg of my journey I simply waited until I was last to board. Smiled at the stewardess parked my arse in a an empty seat at the front. Confidence is everything - I must have looked like tramp ( or an eccentric millionaire) but Igot the full treatment during the flight and ended up getting on very well with a Paris Hilton lookalike on the otherside of the aisle. I can only guess that they were expecting someone who didn't show.

Had I been challenged I would plead ignorance - in English. And apologise profusely.

I have frequently asked on board and before boarding if there are seats free but never had any success that way - understandable really.

Was this theft? No. I paid for my flight. The seat was empty, the meal was provided on the assumption it was to be consumed and would have gone into Cabin Crew if I hadn't been there and, as for the wine, if that made any difference to their bottom line I will eat my lifejacket! Oh, and another thing - it must have improved the flight experience for Mr & Mrs Attila.

[jamier]

Think ive posted this in a previous thread but here goes.

On way to Sharm el Sheikh me, my dad, mum brother and sister. Also my auntie, uncle, and 3 cousins were flying with monarch on i think an A300, after we;d had a 3 hour delay at manchester alot of passengers looking forward to a holiday had been drinking quite alot. We got onto the aircraft and took off, id asked one of the cabin crew members if i could get a copy of the takeoff and landing card from the captain. Part way through the flight theres was a young lad probably about 23? and he had been drinking ALOT and started to get a bit agetated when the cc quite rightly wouldnt serve him anymore alcohol as we were sat in the middle row 3-3-3 my dad asked the cabin crew lady if she would like some assistance in sorting this young man out as he was starting to get very verbal and it was distressing some of the other pax. She asked what my dad ment and he said him and my uncle would sit either side of this unruly gentleman so he would be quiet. When they did this he immediatly shutup (my uncle and dad are both 6'4 and quite built) and the cc thanked them for this at the end of the flight and i got to go onto the flight deck and speak to the captain and first officer :D

On the way back we walked upto checkin and were just expecting a routine flight back to manchester, when we checked in and gave our passports over the lady on the desk told us there was a note on the system and we would be given the 7 seats in the middle with extra leg room (2 people had paid i think as they were sat next to the window on left hand side of the aircraft) and 3 seats in row 1 so needless to say we were very happy people all the way home :D and we just thought that my dad and uncle had helped out the cabin crew deal with an unruly pax.

[VS-Toga]

A story doing the VS rounds, but I was not on the flight.

At check in, a woman of about 50 odd and her husband arrived- her on crutches, covered in neoprene supports (she was, not the crutches).

Spent ages arguing with check in about emergency rows- (sorry you're disabled- you need to be able bodied) then came the upgrade blag and sob stories and then angry confrontation.

The guys said they'd not promise, but SFU'd her on the system anyway.

Her condition obviously vaccilates wildly as said woman was then clearly spotted in the terminal enjoying a miraculous recovery worthy of Lazarus, sprinting around World Duty Free like a spring chicken on ephidrene sans neoprene supports.

Unfortunate and major relapse when boarding time came and out came the supports and sob story again.

Crew pointed out that it's amazing how these illnesses manifest then go away.

Needless to say not upgraded.

I am sure she'd have then written a 3 page complaint letter of rightous indignation claiming callous treatment

[ProM]

Slightly off topic...

When I am flying in business class or am near the front of economy and am not in the mood to read when I board, I watch the boarding passengers to pass the time.

I sometimes try and guess which will be the economy passengers who will get to the curtain/divider and then stop to recheck their ticket in the hope that despite everything they ARE in business class (presumably because they got an upgrade that no-one bothered to mention). There is a quite clear thought process that goes on. With some there is a subsequent bit of body language along the lines of "well I should be in business class but someone made a mistake and now I have to sit in economy with the proles but just be clear I really belong up the front"

I doubt CC have the time to observe this little ritual as much as I do though

[Wader2]

On my last flight with 'extra' legroom it was pleasing to note that those pax who could not fit in the minimal pitch seats had indeed bought the extra space.

One thing we had been dreading was having Mr or Mrs Atilla in the 3rd seat in our row. I guess one strategy would be to book the left and right seats in the hope that no one would book the middle. Then offer them a window or aisle if they had booked that seat.

[GroundedSLF]

I was once travelling with EY in business, and was quietly enjoying the pre take off orange juice, when a really big woman (the kind that dont sit down, but rather get to a certain point and then let gravity take over) and she really smelled.

I thought "christ on a stick - I cant put up with this", and started a scan of the cabin to try and locate an empty bolt hole to move to. The lady looked at my juice, and this must have made her thirsty, because she opened up one of her "Tesco" carrier bags and produced a litre of pinapple juice, and started to swig from the carton (most went into the mouth, but some dribbled down the chins).

Cabin was filling up - so I was starting to get a sweat on, when a cc asked to see the ladies boarding card, and escorted her to her correct seat (42B) - Obviously I was relieved (took about an hour for the smell to dissapate though) but did feel sorry for anybody sitting in 42A or C

[joeflyguy]

Was on a flight LAX to Frankfurt and not long after T/O two middle aged german guys waltzed up to First Class, sat down in 2 empty seats and refused to move. The cabin crew spoke nicely with them and they clearly stated "we are not second class citizens and we demand that we stay here and be served". The crew spoke with F/D who sent a msg via ACARS to airport manager who said give them everything they ask for. He then arranged to meet the aircraft with the police. On arrival these two smugg b'stards left thinking they had pulled it off and when the got to the door there was the local manager with authorities. He asked if they would like to pay by cash or credit card and their jaws dropped. Dropped even further when he stated the diff in fare was in region of $5000 each. They blustered they wouldnt pay at which point the Police advised they WOULD be arrested and charged with fraud. Great outcome.

On another nmore recent flight a very large but immaculately dressed and lovely man boarded and sat down in front of econ by boarding door. On come Mrs Nose-in-the-air and her long suffering husband to sit beside him. The fun started immediately with her huffing and puffing and stating when are the crew going to do something about this. She couldnt contain herself and then demanded the crew move the man or upgrade them. The crew stated the a/c was full in econ and were very sorry. Poor large man was acutely embarrassed. She then almost started screaming saying "well arent there any seats in first class". The CC went away and came back stating "yes madam there are actually several spare seats in first class today so we can accommodate your request" At that she stood up with a very smug look on her face and the CC looked at the poor large gentleman and with a huge grin on his face said "... so Sir if you dont mind coming with me please...". Was priceless. God I hate when they reward bad behaviour. :D :D :D

[Wonderworld]

Was this theft? No. I paid for my flight. The seat was empty, the meal was provided on the assumption it was to be consumed and would have gone into Cabin Crew if I hadn't been there and, as for the wine, if that made any difference to their bottom line I will eat my lifejacket! Oh, and another thing - it must have improved the flight experience for Mr & Mrs Attila.

You may well have paid for a tkt but not in the class you travelled. So it was theft no matter how you try to rationalize it.

[TightSlot]

Was this theft? No

Unfortunately, your own behavior gives the lie to the disingenuousness of the question.

In neither case mentioned did you speak up and volunteer the information that you were taking a seat that you were not entitled to: Rather, you kept quiet, in the hope that you would not be found out - hardly the action of one who has supreme confidence in the righteousness of their position.

The facts are these - you dishonestly appropriated something that you had not paid for. In an attempt to live with your own appalling behavior, you have come up with the ludicrous justification posted above. You have posted it in a public forum in the hope that others will support you, thereby shoring up your own attempts to absolve your behavior as being something of higher moral standing than it actually is - namely theft.

What is particularly galling is that you feel the need to brag about your sad little exploit on a bulletin board populated by those who in many cases do actually pay the premium for extensive mileage in Business/First and can argue a case for their being considered as 'professional' passengers - Never mind the airline employees who you so gleefully tricked.

The least offensive word I can come up with for your behavior and your posting about it is 'discourteous' - believe me, there are others.

[G-DAVE]

Very similar to a couple of the stories that have been posted already, and very similar to DIA74's, is one I was told while doing my flying training for my ATPL's. One of my fellow students was an ex CC and told us this story;

Shortly after boarding, one very racist passenger kept complaining that he 'couldn't sit so close to this type of person for the duration of the flight'. My friend then said he would look into a solution immediately. A few minutes later he returned, and said to the racist passenger 'would a free upgrade to First Class with all the extras we can offer for free be suitable sir?'. Said racist man with a very smug grin, 'that would be perfect'. No prizes I'm affraid for guessing who got the upgrade!

Racist man got dirty looks for the whole of the flight, but never looked up or said a thing!

Just like to take this opportunity to thank all the cabin staff who go the 'extra mile' when I travel with them when I'm in uniform, the free coffe and water really do make a difference, especially after a few long days at work, nice to see the camaraderie works between airlines. :ok:

[T4Turtle]

I flew as a passenger from LHR to Cairo. I boarded quite late. The previous day I had an osteopath's appointment, so I needed a seat with a little room. Check-in staff were a great help and placed me in an economy aisle seat in the middle run. When I went to the seat number I discovered a business man was sat in it and his partner in crime, another business man was sat in the other aisle seat, with a spare seat in between. Would that bitch business man move his behind? No he would not. A pretty cabin crew observed my observation and I mentioned my back. There were no other aisle seats vacant. The cabin crew asked if I had any proof of my back complaint. I pulled out my appointment card from my wallet. She took this to the CSD who returned and in front of the business men asked the cabin crew if they had sufficient catering in club class. She confirmed that she had. Then the CSD asked me to collect my hand luggage and follow him to club class. The business mens' faces were a sight to behold!:D

[Seat62K]

Normally when upgraded I am given a new boarding pass with the new seat number printed on it. On one occasion, though, when I was upgraded from Club World to First, staff at the gate simply wrote my new seat number in ink on my existing boarding card. I did wonder whether the cabin crew might think that I'd done this myself in order to obtain an upgrade but figured that the crew would doubtless have a list of all the passengers in First that day and their seat numbers.
P.S. The gate staff did not tell me that I'd been upgraded, simply that my seat had been changed. I could tell instantly, however, from the seat number that I was not travelling in Club World that day!

[Grueber]

I am just a non-regular SLF, but rather tall (approx. 2 m), and accepting the very limited space in economy. I will try to get a seat with some extra space, eg emergency exit, but usually this is impossible, even when trying to check in through internet 30 hrs prior to departure. Flying in an airliner is an inconvenience to me, which I will try to avoid if possible. Nevertheless, sometimes it is unavoidable and I accept the consequences of an affordable (to me) fare. As the Dutch are amongst the tallest people in the world, it strikes me as odd that even KLM offers very, very little space. I do have little faith in walking away unharmed in case the a/c would crash.
Still, obviously, I would not sneak into business class or try to talk myself into it with excuses. I will ask the crew if it is ok to switch seats within economy class, if there is a more spacious seat available.

Only once I made a mistake, not aware of the fact that the first row in economy actually was an upgraded class. It was only a small aircraft and the first row of economy was empty, me - somewhere in the back - having no leg space whatsoever. So I asked the cc and got a very annoyed answer that it was an upgrade and that I was not allowed to sit there unless I paid for it - I assume I was not the first to pop that question. It left me a bit uncomfortable, since it was impossible for the passengers to see they were upgraded seats.

[Munnyspinner]

Look,

let's be clear on this. Premium classes , except on long haul services, are seldom effectively differentiated between economy, other than by the flimsy addition of a curtain - whoop de do! Seat pitch is often the same given that many the A/C operate on a mix of single class domestic and international short haul!

So the premium paid is for what? Better food - What's that worth? Better service - there shouldn't be any difference! anything else? Front row seats - so what is the actual cost difference between providing a seat in row 5 to a seat in row 6? If that happens to be where the curtain comes to rest! Come on - pray tell. Premium class on short haul is an artificial veneer!

The only thing that is genuinely worth paying for on any airline is flexibility (which may also assist in earning frequent flyer rewards).

Who suffered any loss as a result on my actions? Theft is definied as misappropriation with the intent to permanently deprive - I think you actually mean trespass, for which the remedy is quite simple - ask the perpetrator to remove! If this is not done then no complaint of trespass can be upheld.

Without any challenge it could be argued that CC gave tacit approval to my occupancy of the wrong seat.

Keep your wits about you!

[ProM]

If there is so little difference - why did you go to the trouble of fraudulently changing classes?

[GroundedSLF]

Munneyspinner - no matter how you try and justify it, you were wrong.

What you seem to be implying is that unless somebody points it out to you, and asks you to move your backside back to the seat that you paid for, its alright?

I take it you also think its ok to pay for the cheap seats at a concert and then go and sit in the front row if there is a spare seat?

Each class of seat comes at a price - fact.

You are obviously well aware of this, and choose to pay the lower price - fact.

You then dont see anything wrong in sitting in a seat which is sold at a higher price - theft/trespass - whatever, it is still wrong!

prat

[PPRuNe Radar]

Was this theft? No. I paid for my flight.

Theft ... fraud ... all the same thing. Goods or services obtained dishonestly.

[Munnyspinner]

Great analogy.

Empty seat at concert.

OK is it empty because

1.) it hasn't been sold?
2.) it has been sold but nobody has turned up?

In case 1. it has failed to attract revenue and that fact that someone else is occupying is it opportunistic but ( and remember it has failed to sell) this hasn't cost the organiser anything. Neither the bloke from the cheapseats nor anyone esle was going to pay to sit there but the seat exists and the concert goes on. So someone makes use of it.

In case 2. The seat is bought and paid for but no-one shows for whatever reason. The seat is has generated revenue for the organiser - he has suffered no loss. The concert goes on. The bloke that decides to occupy it has, presumably also paid for a seat. If the rightful owner shows up he will get his seat and the interloper goes back to the cheapseats.

For any commercial flight the second the door closes ( gate closes or 35 minutes pre departure at T5 ) then an empty seat on an aircraft is worthless. It is a drag on revenue, a cost to the airline. It has failed to sell , yield has not been maximised. The cost of that seat whether it be in row 1 or row 21 is exactly the same. Their respective revenue generating potential is significantly different only until the ticket desk closes. On board, they are indistinguishable - every empty seat costs the same. Arguably, the cost of an empty premium seat is higher as the middle row seats are usually not sold. It would therefore always make sense to upgrade pax if there is a better opportunity to sell an economy seat where there is no prospect of selling premium.

If the seats had anything other than perceived value it would be easy to auction the seats after boarding! Clearly, this is a. not practical and b. would only serve to alienate those willing to pay premium prices for ordinary seats.

So let's just put things in perspective. If I or anyone else gets away with sitting in a 'better' seat it is opportunistic and subject to fair challenge. In the absence of any challenge from CC, with the benefit of pax manifest, seat allocation and loyalty card staus etc. is that down solely to theft/trespass on their part or ineptitude or complacency on the part of CC - or both? Knock for knock.

Finally, I would seriously challenge the assertion that one seat is 'better' than another simply by the placement of a moveable curtain - which more often than not is what differentiates premium from cattle class on short haul flights - I know you will tell me if I'm wrong!

For the avoidance of doubt, whilst the economics of long haul are essentially the same I do regard premium seats as offering more than 'perceived' value on longhaul services.

[Wonderworld]

Like I said you can give as many reasons that make you feel OK about stealing or opportunistically sitting in an empty seat as you like but YOU know that it's the wrong thing to do. :ugh:

[smudgiebottom]

Munnyspinner, whilst I applaud you for trying to state your case in this debate, that is where my admiration for your behaviour ends.

I am the quiet, law-abiding (larger) customer that pays for my ticket, boards the aircraft when called, avoids asking for extra service as the CC have enough work to do, never put my seat back unless the seat behind is empty, takes whatever seat is assigned to me, and send compliments to the airline should the service warrant it. I'm not a martyr, just getting from point A to point B as quickly and efficiently as possible. Petty things like an extra degree of seat pitch just aren't worth the effect on my conscience.

If there are other people on the flight like you, then the CC have to spend precious pre-takeoff time dealing with the issue of who gets which seat, delaying me and my fellow pax. It's not about revenue, theft, or misappropriation, just 'doing what is right'.

I believe that given that the anti-terror 'air police' presence and/or requirements, that there should be an additional crew member on all 100+ pax flights dressed as a security guard (without a firearm). For selfish idiots that try jumping classes or Y class louts drinking everyone elses share of beverage, their name is taken, they are escorted back to their assigned seat, and a note made in the airlines loyalty system so that next time they fly, check-in crew can be on the lookout for them.

If I had paid US$5k for a business class seat, and Joe Economy slides in next to me on his US$1k Y class fare, I'd sure be upset with the airline that he be allowed to get away with it...

My 2c.

[Juan Tugoh]

Taking something, whether it be goods or service, without paying for it is theft pure and simple. If your moral compass will allow you to do that then no argument on here will persuade you that you are wrong. However, be prepared to accept that a judge may not see things in the same light as you. Also be prepared that the place where you may be arguing your case may be a country where theft is viewed a little more harshly than the in the western world. Remember the law of the land you are in applies with the doors open - so if you fly into Saudi Arabia, then you will be charged with theft in Saudi Arabia.

The old maxim of if you can't do the time don't do the crime is very apt here. Also gaining a criminal record can directly affect your career prospects - many employers take a dim view of their employees engaging in criminal activity. But hey if you are happy to be a thief, please do carry on.

[FormerFlyer]

In my current line of work I deal with theft every day. The definition is (basically) when someone dishonestly appropriates from another with the intent to permanently deprive them.

[ProM]

Munneyspinner

may I ask what your business is?

[Biggles225]

I suppose thats an argument munnyspinner, I wouldnt like to rely on it though.
Surely any passenger who 'self upgrades' will only take the seat space. I'm sure the Cabin Crew know who their class passengers are, and the upgrader is unlikely to get fed or watered in addition to nicking the seat space. (Id hope!) But if its not theft per se, it's what we used to call 'improper possession'. :=

[ProM]

May I suggest that any CC working out of T5 on short-haul watch out our good friend moneyspinner.

If you catch him, please let us know what you do to him. And moneyspinner, if they catch you and get you arrested, let us know what the foreign judge thinks of your explanation that it is not fraud or theft.

[Dont Hang Up]

You can argue the legalities as much as you like. Speaking as SLF myself, what really grates is the arrogant presumption of some of my "fellow" passengers in this regard.

Rest assured all you FAs out there, a polite but firm hand with all these self important idiots generates considerable admiration from those of us who appear to be sitting quietly reading our newspaper.

[tomkins]

just a curtain that separates 'cattle 'from premium,so why on the last overnight flight i did were all the passengers in prem.economy all fast asleep,while all in 'cattle' class wide awake !!!

[Munnyspinner]

I'm not surprised at the self righteous prognostication on this subject but decided to do some proper research.

The offence would not be theft but fraud, in terms of the Fraud act of 2006, this of course depends on which airline the 'offence' occured and in which country. Obtaining services by fraudelent representation . i.e. presenting oneself as a premium class passenger when knowingly not. The test applied here in the UK would that established in R vs Ghosh. That a reasonable person ( the one of the clapham omnibus) would know what he was doing was wrong.

However, looking for examples of cases and prosecutions of individuals in such cases I can find none. Surely, there will be some but they are certainly not as well recorded as prosecutions for other offences on board or against airline employees for theft and fraud.

I wondered why this might be.

First, that it would be reasonable for CC to check that passengers are sitting where they should be and challenge them if not. If CC knows that someone is sitting in the worng seat and then serves them a premium meal as a premium passenger knowing that they are cattle class then the CC is also committing an offence. Two wrongs don't make a right and if the airline wanted to make a complaint of fraud then both may be liable to prosecution.

Second. Even where offences have been perpetrated and the airline may wish to prosecute it is probably not cost effective to do so given that their loss is nominal. It is not something that happens very often, the cost is insignificant and the time and resource to follow it up isn't worth it ( CC appearing in court etc. )

Third, and this is speculation on my part. Were a prosecution to arise the ailine would be called upon the state their loss. Now many will argue that this is simply the difference between the price of a premium class ticket and economy class but it is not. The actual loss is negligible as the seat which was occupied fraudulently was only done so after the opportunity to sell that seat at the full price had passed. The prosecutors would also need to demonstrate that the fraudster had boarded the flight with the specific intention of sitting in Premium class without the appropriate ticket - very difficult to do.

Yes it is wrong. Yes it may be a criminal matter although there are civil remedies available. But, based on the evidence in the UK at least, it doesn't appear to be a problem that the airlines complain about or , if they do, that the authorities successfully prosecute.

Let's see which airline wants to draw attention the sparse difference between the basic service and premium service on short haul flights but the huge price differential!

[Biggles225]

Good fishing trip munneyspinner, well done! :hmm:

[OBie101]

As very frequent flyer I'll use points to upgrade if there's availability - often my flights are at short notice so I'll ask at check-in. There've been a couple of occasions I've been asked by the Crew if "I'd mind moving up forward?", and I don't mind at all - I like to think it's recognition of the "get what you give" attitude.

Obnoxious, anything "challenged" SLF don't deserve the time of day! More often than not they've deliberately tried the bluff/bluster so give it back to them "in the nicest possible way" of course.

If you didn't pay for it, it's not yours to take! If the crew offer, be grateful, but to take advantage of busy crew is deceitful - :mad:!

[GroundedSLF]

Figures - hes a lawyer...

[Dont Hang Up]

just a curtain that separates 'cattle 'from premium,so why on the last overnight flight i did were all the passengers in prem.economy all fast asleep,while all in 'cattle' class wide awake !!!


More wine!

[Juan Tugoh]

If he is a lawyer, then Munnyspinner will have also noted my comment about the offence being relevant to the country the aircraft landed in. UK law applies in the air on G registered aircraft, but not when the doors are open, on the ground in another country. Then the local laws apply and these are the laws you would be charged with. The points made by Munnyspinner are valid in the UK but are subject to the law of other lands when elsewhere. If you are happy to argue legal niceties when the loss of a hand may be at stake keep moving seat.:}

[deltayankee]

...when the loss of a hand may be at stake


And sometimes that's the best part. I seem to recall some Australian businessmen who were unpleasant on a flight into Dubai and spent six months eating fermented camel meat in some local jail. I expect lawyers don't get treated so well.

Getting back on topic. You can argue that some things are hard to prove and you can weasel out of criminal prosecutions but we all know you are wrong. Especially the idiotic part about it being the responsability of CC to make sure you are not committing fraud. So if I rob a bank and the staff don't stop me then it is legal? If you ever pass your old law school go and ask for your money back.

[Union Jack]

Quite apart from being thoroughly astonished at his attitude, I've finally clicked about the derivation of Munnyspinner's choice of monniker - quite simply, someone who spins money is by definition a "tosser"!:ok:

Jack

[flapsforty]

Mr free-upgrade :oh: will not convince anybody here.
It doesn't seem likely anybody here will penetrate his wall of blatantly invalid justifications.
He's wrong and he knows it, but he can't admit it on open forum.

Before we get to the suspend-him-by-his-testicles-from-a-class-divider stage, let's call it a day.