Zest Airways MA60 crash landing in Caticlan - Boracay?

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Just got a message from the Philippines that a MA60 of Zest Air crash landed in Boracay's Airport Caticlan. Can anyone confirm? No injuries to Passengers!

[ubing]

1 hurt as Asian Spirit plane 'undershoots' Caticlan runway

01/11/2009 | 09:51 AM



MANILA, Philippines - An Asian Spirit plane undershot on landing the Caticlan Airport runway in Aklan province Sunday morning, injuring a passenger and temporarily closing down the facility, DZBB reported.

Radio dzBB's Lito Laparan reported that according to the Air Transportation Office's Action Center, the Asian Spirit's Flight-865 "undershot" the Caticlan Airport's runway before 7 a.m. Sunday. The report, however, did not identify the injured passenger.

The Caticlan Airport will be closed for the meantime, the report added. Cebu Pacific's flights bound for the island were re-routed to Kalibo Airport. - Sophia Dedace, GMANews.TV



http://www.gmanews.tv/story/143644/(Update)-1-hurt-as-Asian-Spirit-plane-undershoots-Caticlan-runway (http://www.gmanews.tv/story/143644/%28Update%29-1-hurt-as-Asian-Spirit-plane-undershoots-Caticlan-runway)

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Three injured in Zest Air plane crash in Caticlan airport | ABS-CBN News Online Beta (http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/regions/01/11/09/three-injured-zest-air-plane-crash-caticlan-airport)

Three passengers were injured after a Zest Air (formerly Asian Spirit) plane crashed Sunday morning at the Caticlan airport.

Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines Director General Ben Ciron said that the airline's ZEST MA60 Aircraft Flight 865 undershot the Caticlan airport runway, leaving two children and one crew member injured.

"About 0657 am today, ZEST MA60 Aircraft Flight 865 undershot runway at Caticlan airport with 22 adult pax 2 children 1 staff member. No passengers suffered major injuries," Ciron said in a text message.

Reports said that strong winds caused the aircraft's landing gear to explode, hitting the barrier of the Caticlan airport at around 6:40 a.m. Sunday. After swerving 180 degrees, the plane was said to have crashed into the airport's passenger lounge.

The Caticlan runway was closed because of the incident, causing a Cebu Pacific ATR aircraft to be grounded in the Caticlan airport.

In the meantime, flights to and from Caticlan will continue to operate from Kalibo airport until further notice.

[ubing]

Plane undershoots Aklan runway, 15 hurt
By Nestor P. Burgos Jr., Jerome Aning
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 12:15:00 01/11/2009


ILOILO CITY, Philippines -- Fifteen people were injured when a landing Zest air plane hit a wall after it undershot the runway of the Caticlan airport in Aklan province around 7 a.m., Sunday, according to initial reports of the Aklan Provincial Police Office and Air Transportation Office.
The plane was carrying 23 mostly Boracay-bound passengers from Manila. The wounded were taken to the Baptist hospital in Caticlan, said Aklan police director, Senior Supt. Clarence Guinto.
The airport in Caticlan, Aklan, one of the main gateways to the resort island of Boracay, had to be closed due to the accident.
Cebu Pacific Corp. Communications Manager RG Orense said that as of 8 a.m., a Cebu Pacific ATR aircraft was grounded in Caticlan due to the runway closure.
Many weekend visitors were scheduled to leave the island on Sunday but only one Cebu Pacific flight, an ATR aircraft, was able to leave Caticlan, Orense said in a phone interview.
"Some CEB flights to and from Caticlan will continue to operate form Kalibo airport instead. CEB will try to accommodate passengers affected by flights scheduled to use the ATR aircraft grounded in Caticlan," the airline said in its advisory.


Plane undershoots Aklan runway, 15 hurt - INQUIRER.net, Philippine News for Filipinos (http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view/20090111-182702/Plane-undershoots-Aklan-runway-15-hurt)

[738FO]

uh-oh :ugh::ugh:

good to know that everybody survived. anyone knows the real story yet?

[SlamBam]

Perhaps the pilot went after the touchdown zone with too much zest?:}

[Oz_TB10]

"Reports said that strong winds caused the aircraft's landing gear to explode"

WTF?

Please someone call the journalist and laugh at him/her then slam the phone down!

[ww1]

"Perhaps the pilot went after the touchdown zone with too much zest?"

Now what kind of a stupid comment is that? They crashed on landing, people were hurt and property was damaged. If all you're going to do following an accident is to post inappropriate, inane remarks, then it would be better if you keep your absurdities to yourself. Go away.

[738FO]

Making fun of other peoples misfortunes eh?

Just shows what kind of mentality some so called professionals have.

Shame on you :=:=

[rpc938]

for those of you not familiar with caticlan airport; it is quite short at 900m and what makes it worse is the hill at the end of rwy06.

there is little margin for error.

combine this with gusty wind, an early morning arrival and the risk rises.

for the bean counters it fits and there is a profit motive. but once in a while, there will be an accident given the above.

[crossingthreshold]

RPC938, gusty winds were probably the reason why MA60 made 2nd approach. . . . judgment in the cockpit all the more crucial in situations where, as you say, there is little margin for error.

all we know now is that Zest's brand new plane is a wreck, there are many injured passengers, crew hospitalized, and thousands inconvenienced with closure of airport.

[RAfault]

we can only wait and see what really happened on that incident... for visitors, don't post any speculations... only the crew of that flight knows waht really happened... we can only sympathize.

[ads1963]

But the Civil Aviation Authority in the Philippines is giving it an authority to operate!

What are the real reasons behing this? You guys in the Philippines are living dangerously!

News - Africa: Mugabe refuses to fly in Chinese jet (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=vn20070117042400642C647350)

Mugabe refuses to fly in Chinese jet

Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe flew off to the East for his annual holiday, but declined to use Air Zimbabwe because its new Chinese jetliner was "not safe".

Mugabe, who has been out of the news in Zimbabwe recently, left for Asia shortly after Christmas with a group of more than 30 people, mostly bodyguards and his children, wife and central bank governor Gideon Gono. Gono has since returned to Zimbabwe.

Air Zimbabwe sources said the airline ran into problems when it reserved a Chinese MA60 plane to fly Mugabe and his entourage. This was because the Boeing 737 favoured by Mugabe was due to be serviced.

A furious Mugabe refused to fly in the MA60.

Sources at Air Zimbabwe said they had received correspondence from the president's office saying this was for "safety reasons".

At the historic Focac summit between China's president Hu Jintao and 46 African leaders in November, Mugabe was given a seat at centre stage in the first row when the gathering signed the Beijing Declaration sealing greater co-operation between African and China.

Air Zimbabwe bought two MA60 planes from China last year and got an extra one free. The planes have frequently hit the headlines over their numerous technical problems leading to groundings or emergency landings.

Reports say the cash-strapped Air Zimbabwe could not afford to import spares to repair the MA60s and had to cannibalise one to keep flying the other two.

Mugabe has refused to fly in them since their arrival but expects his countrymen to do so.

"We offered the MA60 because we simply did not have an alternative at the time. But not to our surprise the president refused to fly it," said a well-placed Air Zimbabwe source.

He said Mugabe's refusal forced a sudden rescheduling which saw the airline delay its bigger B767 plane so that it could fly Mugabe to Johannesburg from where he connected to Singapore.

Whenever Mugabe goes on leave with his family, his expenses are bankrolled by the taxpayer because, he argues, he would still be working.

The holidays are particularly expensive as Mugabe is accompanied by hordes of bodyguards on the state's payroll.

His visit to Singapore has been very low key as he is said to have remained ensconced in a luxury hotel while his wife embarked on her usual shopping sprees.

Efforts to get comment from his office failed.


Is your country now becoming a new Zimbabwe?

[ubing]

Plane undershoots Aklan runway, 26 hurt
By Nestor P. Burgos Jr.
Visayas Bureau
First Posted 12:15:00 01/11/2009


ILOILO CITY, Philippines – (UPDATE 2) Twenty-six persons were injured when a Zest Air plane carrying passengers bound for Boracay Island undershot the runway as it was about to land at the Caticlan airport in Malay town, Aklan province Sunday morning.
Except for a passenger who suffered a fractured collarbone, the passengers and a few airport personnel suffered only minor injuries. But the incident forced the closure of the airport for more than five hours.
One passenger, Rowena Versoza, 40, suffered broken bones and a cut to the head. She was taken for treatment at the Aklan Baptist Hospital in Caticlan along with the other injured, said Inspector Lory Tarazona, police chief of Malay town, said in a phone interview.
Three of the injured were airport personnel who were hit by debris when the plane crashed against the concrete perimeter fence.
The plane left Manila around 6:10 a.m., carrying 22 passengers including two children bound for Boracay and with three crewmembers.
The passengers included two Korean and two German tourists.
The 72-seater RPC 8993 plane piloted by Captain Vicente Gazo undershot Runway 06 when it landed at 6:58 a.m., Tarazona said, quoting from a report of the Air Transportation Office (ATO) in Caticlan.
The plane swerved sharply to the left when it touched the runway after the initial impact and hit a concrete barrier seriously damaging its nose. The plane's landing gears and propellers also suffered major damage.
Police and airport personnel who responded to the accident evacuated the passengers and crew to the hospital.
Except for Versoza, the injured passengers suffered cuts and bruises and were immediately released after they were treated, Tarazona said.
The airport was closed to all incoming and outgoing flights because the plane blocked the 30-meter wide and 950-meter long tarmac.
All incoming flights were diverted to the airport at the capital town of Kalibo until the Caticlan airport was re-opened at around 12:30 p.m. Sunday.
The airline company said its safety officer had been coordinating with the ATO to investigate the cause of the accident.
"It's an unfortunate incident and we are relieved that there is no fatality. We will wait for the result of the investigation," said Zest Air director Arturo Alejandrino, in a phone interview with the Philippine Daily Inquirer (parent company of INQUIRER.net).
The company offered to shoulder all medical expenses and all necessary assistance to the passengers and crew, including the transfer of Versoza to a hospital in Manila.
Four of the passengers opted to return to Manila but most of the others proceeded to Boracay, said Alejandrino.
The airport in Caticlan, the jump-off point to Boracay, is one of the busiest in the country. It averaged 18 incoming and 18 outgoing flights daily, servicing around 1,200 passengers in 2008 but the volume nearly doubled during Boracay's peak season starting October until summer.
The safety of the airport has been a concern because of the volume of traffic relative to the size of the runway and because airlines have been operating bigger planes in their Caticlan routes. The airport is flanked by a hill on one side and one end of the runway is near the sea.
Alan Java, chief of the Aerodome Development and Management Service division of ATO and the former Western Visayas area manager of the agency, said there was a recommendation to extend the runway and to level the hill to maximize the runway area.


Plane undershoots Aklan runway, 26 hurt - INQUIRER.net, Philippine News for Filipinos (http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/regions/view/20090111-182702/Plane-undershoots-Aklan-runway-26-hurt)

[kevgod]

The winds were very strong this AM...I heard 40-50 knts. Why the pilot didnt divert to Kalibo, especially after the first landing attempt is my question. The approach is low and somewhat dicey to start with, not even considering high winds. Luckily no one was hurt and its amazing the aircraft didnt catch fire. One other side note, the plane crashed into the Zest airways departure lounge not the main terminal. Hows that for irony. Heres some pics of the crash. (notice one of the first things they did was paint over the Zest logo on the tail)

http://gallery.me.com/kevgod/100060/_MG_0725/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/kevgod/100060/_MG_0739/web.jpg

[fernandeztv]

Its a relief to know that there were no fatalities! It could have been worse. Landing in Caticlan is always a challenge. Sadly it has claimed one more aircraft now :( From the pics, the aircraft looks like a definite write off. Sympathies with the pax and crew.

[ecureilx]

Looking at the pictures, maybe being that the MA 60 is a spin-off from the AN26 line, the pilots assumed the MA60 can take the beating and all like the AN 26 .. and attempted a bit of off-road safari .. :mad: :mad: Or did the chinese make the MA 60 more civilian use - i.e. made it less rough and tough ???

[ecureilx]

There are some excellent articles on the internet, on the 'enhancements' of the MA 60. If only the MA 60 was a derivative of the AN 32, then it would be different ..

From what I know, a few other Asian Airlines were offered the MA 60 in very good terms, but their respective country CAA refused to allow permission for the MA 60's to be used in Passenger Revenue Runs.

Makes one wonder what is wrong .. is it a case of very airlines using the plane - or make it 2 airlines using the plan - and that is cause for concern ? or the rumour of the MA 60 being terribly weight restricted for short field performance is real after all ?

[B747-800]

Its a relief to know that there were no fatalities! It could have been worse. Landing in Caticlan is always a challenge. Sadly it has claimed one more aircraft now From the pics, the aircraft looks like a definite write off. Sympathies with the pax and crew.

yes mate you are right! when i was there during my holidays i saw that airport and its runway. i think that the pilot didn’t follow the PAPI and didn’t cross the threshold at 50ft AGL. looks to me like a stupid careless mistake buy the poor fellow who will get now the wrath of cpt. loudmouth and his boss and the other stooges of the airline. let’s wait for the results of the investigation. speculations are always bad.

to people who are observing the philippine aviation scene it is no surprise that this has happened.

this thread says almost all you need to know on how not to run an airline.

[/URL]http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/321976-asian-spirit-under-new-management.html (http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/321976-asian-spirit-under-new-management.html)

just a few quotes on this entry:

http://www.pprune.org/4611002-post129.html (http://www.pprune.org/4611002-post129.html)

They canceled they're bookings especially batanes because Chief Pilot "Boy putik" can't even land the MA60! with strong winds! maybe he is afraid to overshoot the aircraft.

wasn’t this also the situation in caticlan? Are these pilots afraid of wind? they should be sent back to the flying school and learn to land an aircraft in x-wind situations and not only in VMC and on calm days.

"Guess what"!!!!! For the first time the FIFTH brand new MA60 Failed to be ferried from CLARK to MANILA because the pilot Capt.LINE CHECKER forgot to apply parking brake while he was strarting the A/c and he blame the mechanic for not placing the chocks on the wheels. from what i know who would go out there and get those chock while the A/C is starting?!!!.btw, there was a damaged to the wing i dont know where it hit maybe some tree! LOL!.

maybe this time the pilot didn’t forget to apply the parking brake and he applied it already inflight so he won’t forget again.

The company is really in big mess lots of old school pilots are so proud of who they are and pretend to control over things and there are a lot who is pretenders. there is war between Aircraft to Aircraft! Yikes!

Different company, different Aircraft but same old SH***t. if the culture doesn't stop there will be no changes. so the mess isn't just with the passenger but inside the company aswell.


sounds great to me! seems the whole airline is full of lindberghs and hanna reitsch type of pilots but not of pilots with brains and the touch for the aircraft. Cpt. Loudmouth’s attitude and ego seems to have already tainted the other pilots. its time for him to finally retire before he creates more havoc in this airline.

One more thing MA60 First Batch pilots are not yet done with they're IOE (Initial Operating Experience) Capt. BOY PUTIK is choosing who he wants to get into IOE fast. they have 2 instructors who does not know how to speak English!!! and they need a translator for every flight! what the heck! and one more thing these guys are just waiting for they're schedule for almost 3 months. they cant even celebrate a very nice Christmas no money sila!

how is that? a non-english speaking instructor pilot? hope that you pinoy ma60 pilots went through a crash course in chinese. are the manuals in english and are they properly translated? or do they look like this:

http://www.asiatour.com/china/photos/Photo_of_computer_instructions_in_Chinese_English__seen_in_S henzhen__China.jpg

when will Yao stop listening to CPT. LOUD MOUTH?!

hopefully now! if not than yao should forget his airline at this point and go back to brewing soft drinks and juices, at least this is what he seems to know and understand. this aircraft looks like a sucked out zest juice tetra pack. not much to repair on it anymore! He can use the aluminium for his cans and tetra packs. at least there they are more useful than in an attempt to make money in aviation.

Capt VP operations! Do something! atleast your the last resort for the Company!

maybe cpt. VP ops didn’t read your message otherwise he could have done something or was he again overruled by cpt. Loudmoth?

well i spilled the beans this time. Merry Christmas! lets wait what will happen with company next year.

mate, you got your wish! last year Asian Spirit started the year with a crash landing in masbate and this year, too. maybe cpt. Loudmouth can suggest that zest air aka asian spirit will send all of their aircraft in january of every year for heavy maintenance so they avoid making annual negative aviation history in the philippines.

@basic [URL]http://www.pprune.org/4634636-post137.html (http://www.asiatour.com/china/photos/Photo_of_computer_instructions_in_Chinese_English__seen_in_S henzhen__China.jpg)

I notice that the group of the chief pilot are bragging so much of they're ma60 and trying to race to the finish line feeling that this planes is faster than the Q400, ATR and dornier. hmmm lets se,e winds are shifting this time in RWY24 in CATICLAN will just wait for some cold fronts and see what can ma60 do to land from 24 with gusty conditions.

are you telling us that it can get any worst metrological conditions than in this accident? maybe they should distribute parachutes and life wests to passengers and just drop them over the island.

if you see some bad reaction already to your company why don't you make some actions. make those pilots act like professional one and get less on showbiz. did zest air pay them less that all they can do in they're life is to talk like a gay? , your lucky those airbus guys didn't join the group.try to check your turboprop pilots. they are worst than a truck driver.

One more thing. the MA60 is exceeding its performance limits in CATICLAN even the Chinese instructors refuses to land there well if there is weight penalty to comply then its OK . so passengers just be careful out they're.

oh mate, how right were you! does nobody of zest air read here in pprune? if the instructor pilots are refusing to land in caticlan why send the apprentices there? the result can be seen yesterday.

First officer, try to act as pilots not just an operator or a captains maid. i know some of your captains are trying to be a single pilot on the Ma60 just like what Capt. M did on his training on the airbus. if he acts stupid do your job. if he kick you out of the company don't bother, there are more better equipment to fly. just pm me!

Did the crews ever get a crm training? Maybe not otherwise they would behave different. Dictatorship by senior management never works. Management of human resources is what counts and team work. Hope cpt. Loudmouth reads this.

one last thing. if the VP operations doesn't do his thing well those airbus will teach them some manners. although i am flying Boeing i shut my mouth if one airbus pilots brags something on his flight rather than an MA60 talking to me as if he is thinking that he is flying and B787.

mate, that’s a good one! this made my day today!

question: does the ma60 have a fdr and cvr? or were these “black boxes” destroyed during the impact or the data are encrypted in chinese and have to be translated into english by yao himself?

[Sharpie]

One Question.

Can anyone advise under what certification was the MA60 introduced to Philippines. I understand that a number of western countries have refused the offer to buy the aircraft as they are not FAR certified.:hmm:

[purple head]

Even in China when Okay airways (The first airline to fly the MA-60 in China) were ready to operate, the aircraft sat on the ground for a few months because the CAAC would not grant certification for it. The MA-60 is a civil version of a military transport. For western countries they have launched a MA-600 which should mean it can pass the stricter rules for western authorities.

[buskoto]

Standard Caticlan approach for Asian Spirit (now Zestair):

http://www.philskies.net/forum/download/file.php?id=255

[Cessna1052]

Why can't we " Pilots" accept that, most endings of an EVENTFUL flight are caused by bad judgements?

Why do we always show our soft side ?, up to the point, as if the individual involved was'nt even at fault. Come on... that plane did not land by itself, somehow those yokes were at one time in the hands of somebody. Capt or Co-pilot i dont care,but he did it very wrong.

Whether that MA60 Aircraft has manufacturing issues or not. The very thing that it almost arrived to its destination, only proves that it was airworthy when it left its departure point.

Think about this? If you have your family on board that plane and learned that the Pilot did something wrong and out of the ordinary, will you not charge him in court for his stupidity??? YOU, being a Pilot.

dont cover his ass guys. He is answerable to his doings, very much.

We dont call for a party for his mistakes, and I dont cheer for his wrong judgement.But, he do needs a quiet time to reflect about the accident.


C1052

[Sharpie]

Why just charge the crew?

Why before doing so or even contemplating such an action fully investigate the whole operator set-up.? Why shoot the messenger?

I would certainly begin looking at the training of all pilots; ground as well as flight training. Was it adequate, are the crew trained in CRM, how many check rides do they perform into 'short' airstrips, who teaches them such 'low' approachs that nessesitate road closures to permit landings, are they operating outside of the aircraft's performance envelope. Have a very good look at the operator's culture; look at the senior flight management; the company financial strength. Investigate fully all aspects of the operation before 'shooting the pilots'.

As you should be well aware of, an accident may not be the result of just hitting a runway; it could be the result of many factors, poor airmanship, inadequate training, company pressure,peer pressure , poor CRM, crew status, or a host of other factors in place well prior to an accident, all coming together as the 'Swiss Cheese' example. Result. an accident.

I hope that RP authorities can and do complete a thorough investigation into this accident in light of many other undershoots or over-runs in the past few years. There appears to be deficiencies in basic flying standards.

Happy safe flying!

There may be a valid point about the safety and integrity of the aircraft, but I wonder why I belive none are flying or certified under JAR or FAR rules.:hmm:

[ads1963]

What else did the aviation circle in the Philippines expect from this nearly "fly-by-night" operator Zest Air as to mishandle even the simplest assistance during the crash landing to victims as well as fellow passengers!


Here again a story about what happened there.

In This Game of Life… 2009 January 11 (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/)

A sad news… (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/)

Three of my cousins were included in Zest Air, formerly Asian Spirit crash landing in Caticlan, Boracay this morning. Its a tragic event that awaken all of us at 7am, when one of my cousins who was on board the said plane called us to inform us that they were hurt when the plane landed in the runway of the airport. Apparently, this Boracay trip is the honeymoon trip of my cousin, who got married last Friday. They were supposed to travel in group of 10pax but since they cannot get a booking for all of them for the same flight, three of my cousins took the first flight. The rest of them, including the newlyweds and some friends from Canada was supposed to take the 8am flight.

Apparently, ground crew of Zest Air were not informing the rest of the passengers who were waiting in the airport why the next flight was delayed and claiming that they didn’t know what happened in Caticlan airport. Flights in the morning were cancelled and re routed to Kalibo Aklan. At first Zest Air management doesnt want to refund the airfare tickets of my cousins who are taking the next flight and instead offering that they would just take another plane. But all of us didnt agree because we cannot allow them to take any chances in risking the safety of their lives. My cousin, Jen who was complaining then was escorted to the VIP room in the airport so she wont create commosion to the other passengers. In fact, their statement up to this time was it was all because of the strong wind.

Those three cousins were rushed to the nearby hospital. 2 had stitches and 1 had a big bump on her head when the luggage in the compartment fell on her.

As of this time, we are all waiting for them to be airlifted from Caticlan back to Manila. We are demanding the management of Zest Air to compensate my cousins. We still cannot talk much to our 3 cousins as all of them are still in pain and shock on what happened. Its a trauma for them so as for all of us here who are waiting for their safe way back home.


Unfortunatrly I don't speak Tagalog and maybe somebody can translate the replies:


Comments




Comment by jean (http://www.iamjean.com/) on January 11, 2009 @ 11:43 pm (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2928)

OMG! I just saw the plane that crashed just this morning at the news (Umagang Kay Ganda)…It’s really a traumatic experience talaga. I pray for your cousins’ safety flight back in Manila.
jeans last blog post..This is what you call UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. (http://www.iamjean.com/2009/01/this-is-what-you-call-unconditional.html)



Comment by Yen on January 11, 2009 @ 11:53 pm (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2929)

OMG! I hope they aren’t hurt that bad! My prayers and thoughts, Jody! Yan pa naman sinakyan namin last year nung nag Bora kami! hay..Ingat lagi!



Comment by Vina (http://www.vinanini.com/) on January 12, 2009 @ 6:05 am (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2930)

hi jody! grabe, nakakatakot naman. i hope your cousins are okay na. naku, we’re flying pa naman sa thursday and i’m getting so scared…
anyway, thank you so much for the OB thing. yes, we’re most likely getting dra. aguilar. i was looking for an intellicare-accredited OB kasi my old OB, though she’s very good, is not accredited with intellicare. i found dra. aguilar very nice naman. when i mentioned your name nga, alam mo bang nag-light up ang mukha nya? http://jodyliwanag.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif sabi nya - “coordinator mo si jody?” hehe. i just replied that my husband was an former officemate of you and dicky. tapos nun, ok na kme. i went alone kasi so sobrang kaba ko talaga. http://jodyliwanag.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif at least now kampante ako. before i left, she said na i-send ko daw regards nya sa inyo. http://jodyliwanag.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif super thanks again. http://jodyliwanag.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif
Vinas last blog post..A Wonderful Discovery (http://www.vinanini.com/2009/01/wonderful-discovery.html)



Comment by mm (http://mmkho.*************/) on January 12, 2009 @ 7:22 am (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2931)

naku so scary naman what happen to ur cousins, i hope they’re ok na
mms last blog post..Best Japanese Food (http://mmkho.*************/2009/01/best-japanese-food.html)



Comment by Jacqui (http://www.jacquisoriano.com/) on January 12, 2009 @ 8:05 am (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2932)

Ay naku, scary yan news na yan … and to think nag-Asian Spirit buong sales team last year, naku…katakot!
Ayan, ayaw bigla ni Mike mag-bora…hahaha!
Anyway, luckily nothing major happened with the passengers. Praying for your cousins swift recovery. http://jodyliwanag.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif
Jacquis last blog post..B is for vacation … (http://www.jacquisoriano.com/2009/01/b-is-for-vacation.html)



Comment by jeanny (http://www.jeannycdj.com/) on January 12, 2009 @ 1:53 pm (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2934)

i saw this new yesterday. Grabe…hope your cousins are okay na.
jeannys last blog post..Cooking time (http://jeannycdj.com/2009/01/11/cooking-time/)



Comment by Jody on January 12, 2009 @ 2:13 pm (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2935)

Hello Jean! Thanks! Yes, we need prayers cause it was a very traumatic experience for them. They were now in Medical City since last night, being treated. Halos di daw sila makahinga sa plane (cebu pac) last night on their way back to Manila.



Comment by Jody on January 12, 2009 @ 2:17 pm (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2936)

Hello yen! Thans for the prayers. Apparently, nung una kala nila di sila masyadong in pain pero last night, super sakit ng mga katawan nila. One of my cousin, (the girl, I was with when I recently went to HK) had stitches on her legs. When I saw it last night, I was shocked, ang lalim kasi. Then yung isa naman, ang daming bruises. And last night she was complaining of neck pain so she was on therapy. The BF of my cousin naman, his legs and back, ang balakang area. Hay, katakot talaga what happened to them.



Comment by Jody on January 12, 2009 @ 2:41 pm (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2937)

Hello Vina! Kakakot nga bigla mag ride ng plane. I never thought it could happen to a very close relatives. Ingat na lang on Thursday. Anyway, glad you like Dra. Aguilar. yes, she knows Im a coordinator kaya nga alam nya na pati delivery sched ko eh nakaschedule talaga dapat.



Comment by Jody on January 12, 2009 @ 2:43 pm (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2938)

Hello MM! Scary talaga. Imagine, naalipungatan ako when my mom called us in the room to break the news. At first, di pa namin full details, ang sabi plane crash, not crash landing. Umiiyak na talaga ako habang pababa ng stairs. Di ko malaman kung sino una kong tatawagan! Then sabi nasa hospital daw sa caticlan. We called them, nakausap ko yung isang cousin ko, she was crying on the phone. Naku, we all gathered in my lola’s place para maplano pano sila matulungan.



Comment by Jody on January 12, 2009 @ 2:50 pm (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2939)

Jacq, bigla ngang nakakatakot magplane. Accident do happen talaga. Although, ang daming pagkukulang ng zest air sa kanila. Eh yung isa pang cousin ko na kasama dun eh, yun ang companion ko when we went to HK recently, at yun ang most travelled sa amin. Yesterday daw pabalik ng Manila via Cebu Pacific, parang magpapalpitate sya. Trauma talaga ang dala sa kanila. Imagine, when the plane hit the wall, nag-amoy gas na yung buong plane, then takbuhan mga passengers sa loob para lumabas. Labas na raw mga bakal bakal ng plane kaya din sya nasugatan ng malalim sa legs. It was so fast lang daw lahat ng pangyayari. medyo mataas pa adrenalin rush nila when they were running tsaka di pa sya in pain. Apparently, she noticed na lang na basang basa na yung left leg nya ng blood when they got in the hospital, it was running on her slippers na. Grabe, talaga. Nganilabot ako dahil I’m really supposed to join that Boracay trip, kasama ako sa plano. Then I begged off nung Dec kasi dami kong pending work. Then nung when they were planning na their flight, bigla kong gustong sumama. Pero di ko na macancel my meetings till wednesday kaya di na lang din ako tumuloy. Eh malamang kasama ako sa first flight. Kasi yung newlywed kong cousin ang 2nd flight because of her kids, di magising ng maaga. Eh dahil magkalapit kami ng house nung mga kasama sa plane crash, pretty sure dun ako sa first flight. Grabe, katakot talaga. Now, they are in medical city na. Naka-confine sila.



Comment by Jody on January 12, 2009 @ 2:50 pm (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2940)

Hello Jeanny! Thanks! They are now in Medical City being treated.



Comment by thea (http://bloggerhappy.com/) on January 13, 2009 @ 12:36 am (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/11/a-sad-news/#comment-2941)

Syete! Natakot talaga ako sa news na yun kasi hubby’s team was supposed to avail of that promo. meaning kung natuloy sila, kasama kami ni Mikee. ang mura kasi eh.
Good to hear na di nmn grabe nangyari sa cousins mo. at least stitches and bruises lang, alam mo na. pero ang mahirap jan yung trauma. buti di nasabay mga kids. nakaka-worry yung mga kids dun sa plane, traumatic yun syempre. (I read that there were kids hurt eh)

[ads1963]

The service level of Zest Air is not only below ZERO, it is completly absent.

The victims should sue Zest Air especially that the aircraft is operated OUTSIDE the FAA and EASA standards and certifications!

But Pinoys seem to take matters very easy and only complain.

The nightmare for the victims goes on:

In This Game of Life… Blog Archive Update on Cousins… (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/14/update-on-cousins/)

Update on Cousins… (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/14/update-on-cousins/)

What happened in Crash Landing of Zest Air and some details:

1. They were moved back to Manila from Caticlan airport via Cebu Pacific.

2. No representative of Zest Air came to their rescue until after lunch of that dreadful Sunday. Only the porters, and some locals of Caticlan helped them to ride the van so they could be brought to the hospital. They were all by themselves in the hospital after the van dropped them.

3. The representative that they sent was just a cashier of their airline who can’t even decide on what to do to them.

4. They were supposed to be flown back via Kalibo but we were demanding that they airlift them since my other cousin can’t travel by land for 2 hours from Caticlan because of trauma on her ribs. But they said they cannot do that since they don’t have a chopper. Good thing, Caticlan airport opened up again in the afternoon.

5. From the hospital in Caticlan, they were just asked to ride a van to go the airport. No personnel from Zest Air accompanied them. From the airport, it was personnel of Cebu Pacific who took care of them.

6. They were almost palpitating on board Cebu Pacific going back to Manila because of the trauma it has caused them.

7. From the airport, no Zest Air personnel came in the picture to receive them from the plane. They were all pushed through wheel chairs then shuttled directly to an ambulance that brought them to Medical City.

8. It was so annoying that when they got to Medical City, Zest Air personnel endorsed only 1 of my cousins who they believe suffered the most. The two others were requested to be discharged. Of course, our family complained and insisted that the three of them should all be tested and confined to ensure safety and health. Apparently, the two others realized that they also have more bruises than expected.

9. They were confined in Medical City since sunday and has been doing physical rehabilitation since Monday. They are scheduled to be out today. Thank God!

10. No manager from Zest Air came in the hospital to show themselves to the victims (my cousins) and to us relatives until Monday afternoon. The only personnel they sent last Sunday was just like a staff who cannot even decide.

11. My cousins felt that it was a pilot error. They had a first attempt to land already, almost touching the ground when they zoomed in the air again. The first attempt, they almost hit the Cebu Pacific plane parked in the tarmac. The second attempt, it was quick according to them. Landed to the ground and they swayed to the left until they stopped and realized that they bumped a wall. Passengers were in panic inside, all rushing to go out of the plane.

12. Seats were strangled from its position, baggages fell.

13. The cabin crew (flight attendants) were the first one to unboard the plane where in they were the ones supposed to be assisting the passengers and the last one to leave the plane. They were already on the ground when they were shouting to the passengers “Labas na kayong lahat, iwanan nyo na ang mga gamit nyo!” (nakakagigil ang part na ito!)

14. It was crazy inside and there were lots of debris already according to my cousins, probably the reason also why they had lots of wounds and bruises on the legs. Passengers all jumped to get off the plane as the stairs were not put on.

15. My cousin saw the pilot walking before them, they saw him only having a wound on his hands and can even walk properly. So I don’t know why they were saying reports that their pilot were also rushed to the hospital and was unconscious the entire time. Zest Air personnel said he only came back to his consciousness when he was in the hospital. What hospital did they bring the pilot? They were only 5 passengers in the hospital nearest the Caticlan airport, 3 of which were my cousins. (sabi nila, sa makati med daw naging conscious, bakit sya nadala agad sa makati med? bakit my cousins were left in that small hospital until late afternoon without anybody from Zest Air attending to them?)

16. When my cousins were asking the cashier of Zest Air who showed up in the Caticlan hospital if there are personnel of the airline who came from Manila for their rescue, the cashier said, the Manager went to the Boracay Island to assist the other passengers. They never saw a decent person to face them to decide on what to do for them. And what the hell is that personnel doing in Boracay Island when the ones badly hurt are in the hospital. What kind of damage control are they doing for those passengers who still went to enjoy the island? My cousins were the ones who need assistance.

Zest Air crisis management sucks! Their customer service manager can’t even handle the victims and the relatives of the victims. They cannot take it away from us, we are so mad. The lives of our family members were at stake at that time. And their freaking planes are not maintained at all. Ban Zest Air (formerly Asian Spirit). With a lot of history already of crashing planes, their flying permits should be lifted! We wont ever, ever ride this airline anymore!


And here some comments to the blog. Maybe somebody who speaks Tagalog can translate.


Comments




Comment by Jen (http://celluliticbliss.com/) on January 14, 2009 @ 2:18 am (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/14/update-on-cousins/#comment-2948)

Hi Jody,
Sharing this: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3323/3188525040_8dab641f50.jpg?v=0 (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3323/3188525040_8dab641f50.jpg?v=0)
This is so terrible — I’m really sorry about your cousins. If I were in your shoes, I’d be just as livid. Scandalous (towards Zest Air) would be an understatement!
I hope your cousins are doing better and I thank you so much for posting this. I’m such a big fan of Boracay (and cheap deals too!) but now I know I will never fly this airline.
Jens last blog post..2 years ago today. (http://celluliticbliss.com/?p=1013)



Comment by Jody on January 14, 2009 @ 3:50 am (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/14/update-on-cousins/#comment-2949)

Hello Jen! My cousins took picture nga rin of the plane when they got off. It is such a pity cause when I was looking at their cameras, the first few shots were they were very happy boarding the plane, all smiles while they posed also inside the plane then last 3 pics were the crashed plane. Apparently, their airfares were not even the cheapest. It was almost on regular rate of Php7K++ for round trip. We really felt that there was a pilot mistake along the way. We have accepted that the accident had happened. We were thankful that it wasnt a plane crash that dropped in open sea or forest. But what we are so fuming mad about is that they don’t really know how to do crisis management. They should be up on their knees to face the victims and do what is best for them. Instead of just waiting for our demands. Yes, dont ever fly this airline again.



Comment by peachy (http://amazingsincebirth.com/) on January 14, 2009 @ 6:12 am (http://jodyliwanag.com/2009/01/14/update-on-cousins/#comment-2951)

at nauna pa ang mga flight attendants bumaba??? WTF! sigurado bang may management yang zest air? grabe sila considering mahal ng airfare.
peachys last blog post..Reflux on Babies (http://www.amazingsincebirth.com/2009/01/reflux-on-babies.html)

[airbus747]

you dont know what yore talking about jay paulme or magnastic man cmc

[ecureilx]

ASN Aircraft accident Xian MA60 RP-C8893 Caticlan-Malay Airport (MPH) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20090111-0)

"Three airport personnel weere injured because they were hit by debris when the plane crashed against the concrete perimeter fence."

[B747-800]

i received an email last night with a very interesting linK

Business Mirror - A broader look at today's business - Headlines (http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/06252008/headlines06.html)

Whew! Airline insurer back By Ma. Stella F. ArnaldoSpecial to the BusinessMirrorFLAG carrier Asian Spirit is once more insured by Prudential Guarantee and Assurance Inc., this after the airline revoked its appointment of an insurance broker and committed to settle the carrier’s premiums Wednesday, June 25.
In a letter addressed to Lucio Fernandez, vice president for aviation and marine of Prudential Guarantee, dated June 23, 2008, and received by Prudential at 7:23 p.m., Asian Spirit chief finance officer Albert Toribio said: “After a careful evaluation of the situation, I have decided to revoke the appointment I made in favor of Empire Insurance Co., as exclusive broker of record.
“I hope this letter will set the record straight that we have never rescinded the existing insurance covering our aircraft with your company. It is our desire to continue to preserve our harmonious relationship.”
In his letter, a copy of which was obtained by the BusinessMirror, Toribio added: “As regards to our premium payment for the 2nd Quarter, we will make remittances by Wednesday.”
An official of Prudential Guarantee, who requested anonymity, declined to reveal the actual amount owed by the airline, only to say: “They have not been religious in paying their financial obligations.” Knowledgeable aviation and insurance sources estimated the second-quarter premium of Asian Spirit at some $200,000. Under its previous owners, Asian Spirit’s premiums amounted to $500,000 per quarter.
“It was just a misunderstanding,” said Art Alejandrino, board director of Asian Spirit, of the situation,


which resulted in the airline flying without insurance coverage from June 19 to June 23, 2008.



He made this statement in reference to a letter written by Toribio entitled, “Appointment-Sole & Exclusive Broker on Record” on June 18, 2008, designating “Empire Insurance Co. Inc., as the exclusive insurance company of Asian Spirit for its Aviation,
Hull & Liability, Deductible, War, Personal Accident and other aviation-related insurance requirements.”
Prudential Guarantee managed to secure a copy of Toribio’s appointment letter, causing the insurer to write him on June 19, 2008, saying: “By your unilateral action of appointing another insurance company from the 18th of June 2008, you have, in fact, rescinded your insurance contract with Prudential Guarantee and Assurance Inc. and, therefore, there is no insurance policy in effect from the date of issuance of your letter [June 18, 2008].”
However, CAB sources confirmed there is no insurance contract between Empire Insurance and Asian Spirit. Thus, from June 19 to June 23, Asian Spirit was flying without any insurance cover.
Alejandrino, however, disputed this, saying the airline did not fly any day without insurance coverage. He explained that upon receiving Prudential Guarantee’s letter on June 20, the carrier “made inquiries abroad and we received an e-mail that [Prudential Guarantee] did not issue a notice of cancellation [of its contract with Asian Spirit]” to its reinsurer, AIG. “So all the while, we knew we were covered by Prudential.”
Alejandrino said he would send a copy of said e-mail from AIG but as of 4 p.m. Tuesday, the BusinessMirror had yet to receive it.
Toribio’s letter to Prudential’s Fernandez on June 23 said, “Please note that the issuance of such BOR [broker of record] was made only to determine the fair-market price for insurance coverage such as the company requires, and not intended as a rescission of our existing insurance contract.”
As for Asian Spirit’s premiums which remain unpaid for the second quarter of the year, Alejandrino said: “I assure you, we are a little delayed but not that far off. The delay falls within the normal client-insurer relationship. It is not a cause [for Prudential] to cut our insurance.”
He added that Asian Spirit’s new owner, fruit-juice king and banker Alfredo M. Yao, personally called up Prudential Guarantee’s chairman and chief executive officer Robert Coyiuto Jr. and VP Fernandez at about 7 p.m. Monday to tell them, “If there is such a problem, all you can do is call me.”
Alejandrino added, “I admit there was some miscommunication [between Toribio and Fernandez], but they [Prudential Guarantee] confirmed that we had [insurance] cover as of 7 p.m. [Monday].”
Separate sources said Yao called Fernandez after finding out that the BusinessMirror would publish a story that the carrier was flying without any insurance. “Yao told Fernandez he didn’t know that Toribio had issued an appointment letter in favor of Empire Insurance. He also said that he would instruct Toribio to issue a letter revoking the appointment of Empire Insurance. Yao promised to settle the premium owed to Prudential by Wednesday [January 25].”
Contacted for comment, Fernandez declined to comment on the matter and did not confirm that Yao called him.
An official of Prudential Guarantee who declined to be named, said of the premium payment to be made by Asian Spirit, “It is immaterial.” Asked whether Prudential Guarantee is insuring the carrier again, the official said: “We have been reinstated as their insurer.”


could it be possible that this aircraft was not properly insured again at the time of the crash?

[B747-800]

in one of the phil. hosted aviation forums i found a few minutes ago a translation and a link which is intersting. the phil. forum has a translation of of a german forum thread on airliner.de by a german passenger of the flight.

for the german speaking "krauts" here the link:

airliners.de - Luftfahrt-Forum - Thema anzeigen - Crash MA-60 11.01.2009 Bericht als PAX (http://www.airliners.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43585)

and for us, non-krauts the english translation:

Philippine Flight Simmers Group • View topic - Zest Air plane UNDERshoots Caticlan runway; passengers hurt (http://www.philskies.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11818&start=40#p106349)

there are a few statements in this report which puts doubt on the capabilities of the MA60:

There were approximately 20 passengers on board plus three crew in the cockpit and two in the cabin.

nowhere was any mentioning of 3 pilots on board of the aircraft. does anyone know more about this? who was the third guy?

Around 6:52 a.m. we were on final to MPH (Caticlan in the "other" airport abbreviation system). An extremely gusty approach. At an altitude of 5 to 10 meters alarm signals were audible from the cockpit (I sat in row 2) and the go-around was initiated. Looking outside my window I could see the whole width of the runway, which means we were already located over the grass beside the runway.


this shows that the flying pilot had difficulties in making a controlled approach on his first trial. the writer doesn't say into which direction the aircraft drifted. what athe alarm signals? does the MA60 have a GPWS?

The MA-60 had substantial trouble gaining altitude, most of which was acheived by retracting the landing gear. (possibly flaps retraction too)


it appears from this statement that the MA60 is really underpowered.

After about 5 minutes a renewed attempt. Power reduced during final and the thought "we made it" crossed my mind; in that same moment the first impact. Later on we saw that first parts of the aircraft were lost at that point already.


where was this first "impact"? does this mean it was not a controlled flair but a very firm landing?

Second impact already on the grass strip, I saw the runway disappear from beside my window.

zest air should be charged double landing fees for this landing. from his account it appears that the aircraft made an uncotrolled landing.

The aircraft skidded on it's belly, without propellers and with gear collapsed, after about 200m it veered 180 degrees to the left and came to a stop were wall and fence of the airport perimeter meet.


any idea where the landing gear collapsed?

In the forward cabin section were I was sitting the complete ceyling had collapsed. Three people who were sitting behind me could free themselves.


there must have been tremendous g-forces upon landing or is the ceiling panel just installed by simple fasteners?

A lady who sat on the other side of the aisle in row 2 fell into the aisle with her seat. I managed to free myself after around 30 seconds by climbing through fallen cabin panelling and over seats.


are the seats not installed with the proper g-ratings? this sounds strange to me that a whole seat will get loose during that type of landing. this would also proof that the MA60 is not manufactured according to international standards.

About the injuries: said lady had spinal column injury and a broken upper arm.


maybe this is the lady which was earlier mentioned by ads1963 and the lady whose seat was ripped off the floor.

The rest was mostly smaller injuries. (we had ourselves examined here in Germany, the result was broken ribs and a broken leg)


these guy must have been in pain. is the x-ray in the philippines so bad not to discover broken rips and legs?

Registration was RP-C8893, by the way. We filmed the first approach and go-around on video.

this video might be interesting to us as well as to the accident investigators. maybe we can find it one day on yourtube.

in short: the phil. authorities should interview this passenger to really determine the cause and the airworthiness of the MA60.

btw. i have heard that the crew was the first one to leave the aircraft. any thruth to that?

is there a CVR and FDR on a MA60? are chinese authorities assisting in the investigation?

[ecureilx]

The MA 60 is known to be under-powered, and weight restricted in operation by another operator, who is forced to fly at 50% capacity, especially when flying into higher altitude airports. And there are serious doubts if it can abort on OEI.

BTW, the only other operators outside Phil are in Laos, Indonesia and Zimbabwe .. .

There was some serious allegation that Philippines is becoming the "flag of convenience" for un-certified aircraft, or banned aircraft ... and with MA 60 being allowed to operate ..... :ugh::ugh:

Fly safe ...

(I would assume that the plane came with the 'light weight seats, to ensure the under powered engines can haul the air-frame off the ground ... :ouch::ouch:

[Sharpie]

Quote:

The MA-60 had substantial trouble gaining altitude, most of which was acheived by retracting the landing gear. (possibly flaps retraction too)

it appears from this statement that the MA60 is really underpowered.

Is it?

Whilst not defending the aircraft but comparing it to similar aircraft capacity and weights, we find that the MA60 provides 1hp for each 3.9ks at MTOW. The F50 gives 1hp for each 4.1ks and the D8-300 1hp for each 3.9ks. And we all know that quite often at mtow, you do not actually leap away like a startled gazelle until gear and flaps are up.

[ecureilx]

While the specs do look good, operators had a different opinion ...

If you know anybody in the operator in ID, then you may be able to get a frank opinion, on the hot-high performance. I have no clue what transpired subsequently, whether there was a offset package or the reduced performance still was attractive considering the purchase cost, or some tweaking was done..

Note that this is a spin-off / copy of AN 26, and the Russians went on to power up the airframe with two 3812 KW engines, a big step up from the 2100 KW - and called it AN 32, with almost a 55% power increment.

The MA 60 is listed with 2 X 2052 KW engines, as public information. Agreed that the MA 60 is powered by PW engines, and maybe more efficient than the Progress of the Russian design, but there is some big gap in the power.

[buskoto]

And There was an airshow where an An-32 did a single-engine touch-and-go. Of course, granted only the crew was onboard, but that demonstrates confidence in the aircraft's power-to-weight ratio. I wonder if those same pilots would've done the same on an An-26...

The numbers on the MA60 do look good and seem to compare favorably to Western types. The passenger loads out of Caticlan's Rwy 06 are nominally comparable to the ATR72. But it seems the guys I know who fly the type say departing out of 06 is an act of faith on their part. And that's with both engines turning.

So yes, the numbers look good but is there a disconnect between what the book says and what pilots (and passengers) flying the type are actually seeing? Are those numbers verifiable by certifying authorities other than the Chinese CAA?

[ecureilx]

> So yes, the numbers look good but is there a disconnect between what the book says and what pilots (and passengers) flying the type are actually seeing? Are those numbers verifiable by certifying authorities other than the Chinese CAA? <

Not picking on MA 60 - my contention is that it is a good plane, of an old generation ..

And just that it is not a good airframe for a hot climate like this part of the world.

As for the certification .. read a take on the type, from Nepal.

"The government is negotiating with the Chinese aircraft manufacturer, Xi'an Aircraft Industry Group Co, for a buy-two-get-one-free deal to supply two twin engine turboprops for Royal Nepal Airlines. The Royal Nepali Army will get one of the planes for free.

The aircraft is a 56-seater derivative of the original Soviet Antonov An-24 and has upgraded Pratt & Whitney engines and Rockwell avionics. At $11 million apiece it has been exported to Zimbabwe, Fiji, Eritrea and Congo. Although not very popular among pilots, airlines find the aircraft cheap and useful for rough airfields.

Sources at Royal Nepal Airlines aren't too happy with the new aircraft and say they would have preferred more modern turboprops like ATR-72s or SAAB 340 which have a proven record of service on domestic routes like Pokhara, Biratnagar, Bhairawa and Nepalganj. "It's the government deciding, and it looks like they can't resist getting one free plane for the army," one airline official told us. The MA60 doesn't yet have UK or US FAA certification and has been decommissioned from service by China's own Wuhan Airlines and China Eastern Airlines.

MA-60 buy two get one free - Nepali Times (http://www.nepalitimes.com.np/issue/260/BizNews/713)

[Sharpie]

Maybe someone should ask what family tie does the owner of Zest have with mainland China. May have abearing on how the aircraft came to be in RP!

[blackwing]

At $11 million apiece it has been exported to Zimbabwe, Fiji, Eritrea and Congo. Although not very popular among pilots, airlines find the aircraft cheap and useful for rough airfields.

There are no MA60s in Fiji.... Air Fiji was supposed to get a couple but it didn't really meet their operational requirements.

[B747-800]

Quote:

The MA-60 had substantial trouble gaining altitude, most of which was acheived by retracting the landing gear. (possibly flaps retraction too)

it appears from this statement that the MA60 is really underpowered.

Is it?

Whilst not defending the aircraft but comparing it to similar aircraft capacity and weights, we find that the MA60 provides 1hp for each 3.9ks at MTOW. The F50 gives 1hp for each 4.1ks and the D8-300 1hp for each 3.9ks. And we all know that quite often at mtow, you do not actually leap away like a startled gazelle until gear and flaps are up.


i agree that the engines are the same but a 6 bladed prop (ATR72-500) Hamilton 6 blades , HS 568F vs a 4 bladed prop (MA60) is more aerodynamically more effective than a 4 bladed one (hope i remember my prop aerodynamics still right from flying school.

with respect to performance, the ma60's empty weight is more than 1,000kg heavier than the ATR72-500 and has a lower MTO by 200kg.

and the penalties for t/o and ldg must be very heavy. just wondering if it makes economical and operational sense to put this type of a/c onto a route like caticlan.

the owner seems to have tons of money to burn to make this route effective even at a cost of US$ 11m a piece i can't see the economy behind this route.

are the rates that high? when i was there they we real cheap (something like 30 US$++ one way and return was 50++.

guess this purchase was just a political toy cause i read that Yao is an Ambassador for tourism of the philippines to china. this could explain more why he bought these "old fashioned" aircraft.

[Sharpie]

Hi I have flown a few thousand of hours in F27 and Dash7 aircraft in PNG and May last year was approached to look at the possible entry of MA60's to that airspace.

I sent numerous emails faxs etc to the manufacturer seeking single engine drift down graphs as well as take-off/landing performance from 5500'agl airports, isa + 15-18 conditions. To date, I still wait for thae information sought. Yes. I believe that at 'high altitude' airports under isa +15+, performance could be lacking.

At sea level Caticlan with only around 20 pax, the aircraft should have been less than 50% loaded and I wonder why it did not perform better than it did even taking into the account it is of geriatric design, if you like.

Reading the posts here and under Asian Spirit, I tend to suspect that the aircraft itself may not be at fault, may not have been underpowered for the load carried or the conditions experienced on that day at sealevel, but suspect that the training of and the handling skills of the crew may be more suspect and lacking than the aircraft.

Just a thought and I look forwrd to reading the accident report.

Happy safe flying.

[iseul]

Buskoto, the "MA-60" you said were operated by Wuhan Airlines and China Eastern were not MA-60. They were very old Yun-7 which is a copy of the an-26. You can see them as you taxi in Nanjing next to some Bae146 also in China Eastern colours. They are waisting away and rotting. You can tell they are yun-7 not MA-60 because they have winglets. The Yun-7 is still used at CAFUC for high performance training. As prurple head said earlier in the post OKAY Airways was the first (and only so far) to operate the MA-60 in China. They only have one aircraft flying now. Well it will be flying again soon when the managers of OKAY stop fighting and flights start again in Feb. When the company first got the MA-60 they were not allowed to fly becasue the CAAC would not give it a certificate and i beleive the Chinese Military got involved then, they got a certificate.

[ecureilx]

Edited >> I was thinking that the newer aircraft will have winglets, not the older one :ouch:

[purple head]

I think she means the Yun-7 has winglets, maybe she should have wrote .....you can tell its a yun 7 becasue of the winglets. The Yun 7 is the Chinese version of the An-26, and the MA-60 is based on the Yun-7.....

[ads1963]

Was the crew involved in the crash in Caticlan in a party the night before the accident? Rumours have it that there are some recordings about a party on CVR. Any truth to that?

[Cool banana]

Now if they had put the Yun-7 style winglets on the MA60, MA60 might not get airborne with that extra weight…………….

[ironbutt57]

At least they make good root beer:ok:

[B747-800]

i haven't been online in the last few days and i am surprissed to see that until today no initial findings on that accident has come out at all except some rumours with pilots attending parties till the morning comes.

is the philippine caa able and willing to conduct a proper aircraft accident investigation or is it a hush-hush job (similiar as in thailand's accident investigations) to protect the airline and its owner and to cover up that caa has authorized a non-certified (by faa and easa standards) aircraft to operate into the airport.

i sincerely doubt that the philippine authorities will admit that they have made a mistake in certifying the MA60 for this type of operation and that the real root cause of this accident is their own certification.

if the philippines ever waant to get out of the faa cat. 2 status and not be included in the easa blacklist they need to be factual and also admit that they made a mistake in certifying these type of operation for the MA60.

you guys over there are being watched how this investigation is being handled and how your authorities are doing their investigation job. another white wash like the one2go incident in kho phuket could be the missing nail in the coffin for an easa blacklist.

Good luck to all of you and specially to the investigators.:ok:

[ads1963]

Somebody should give them also a gift certificate for one more plane for free:

MA-60 buy two get one free - Nepali Times (http://www.nepalitimes.com.np/issue/260/BizNews/713)

MA-60 buy two get one free

The government is negotiating with the Chinese aircraft manufacturer, Xi'an Aircraft Industry Group Co, for a buy-two-get-one-free deal to supply two twin engine turboprops for Royal Nepal Airlines. The Royal Nepali Army will get one of the planes for free.

The aircraft is a 56-seater derivative of the original Soviet Antonov An-24 and has upgraded Pratt & Whitney engines and Rockwell avionics. At $11 million apiece it has been exported to Zimbabwe, Fiji, Eritrea and Congo. Although not very popular among pilots, airlines find the aircraft cheap and useful for rough airfields.

Sources at Royal Nepal Airlines aren't too happy with the new aircraft and say they would have preferred more modern turboprops like ATR-72s or SAAB 340 which have a proven record of service on domestic routes like Pokhara, Biratnagar, Bhairawa and Nepalganj. "It's the government deciding, and it looks like they can't resist getting one free plane for the army," one airline official told us.

The MA60 doesn't yet have UK or US FAA certification and has been decommissioned from service by China's own Wuhan Airlines and China Eastern Airlines.

Is that true?

[mandaragit]

There are filipino expat A320 pilots from India( Indigo and Air Deccan)who have just recently joined Zest Air. These are former Cebu Pac and PAL pilots. They should be able to lend good professional airline operations expertise to this airline. Why they are not joining ETIHAD is of no concern to me. I wish them and the airline success and safe flying always.

After the strike of 1998, I was one of the lucky ones who was able to find employment in another airline. Some I know actually flew aerial spraying in Mindanao. Not all pilots can afford to buy their own airplane or as lucky. They need to earn a livelihood, that's for sure. Airline companies provide these opportunities. If you want to improve the airline, you should make yourself a part of it.

[ads1963]

What's the use of good pilots if the management of an airline is not up to it?

They crash aircraft in Caticlan and even make it possible to crash aircraft during start up of engines. The best pilots can't accoplich anything if the senior management doesn't know what they are doing.

Do I have to say more?

[mandaragit]

no. you don't have to say anything anymore.

[ecureilx]

Has Asian Spirit started flying to Basco ?

I recall them flying BAe 146, the 4 jet engined jumbo-liners, one of the quite and excellent STOL airliners :ok:

The Asian Spirit site now shows "BASCO is to be reinstated". If so, what equipment would they provide ?

Does that leave SEA Air as the sole operator for this segment ?

With the DHC and MA 60, wonder what is the current dispatch rates anyway

Thanks, and please ignore if this is considered thread drift.

[Tassie Devil]

Traveling to Boracay soon with wife and child, Who operates the let and the MA60, who operates DHC, ATR and Dornier. What is the runway direction and prevailing wind this time of year. What is the strip dimensions.
What is the alternative to flying in to this strip?

Thanks

[purple head]

Out of interest i heard Okay's airways brand new MA-60 is grounded with engine trouble. And they have had to delay delivery of two new ones due to manufacturing problems.

[B747-800]

okay airways stopped operating their ma60 because of very poor performance. a similiar action was taken by merpati. they originally ordered 15 ma60s but only accepted 2!

i seriously doubt the capability of zest air to run a successful commercial operation. as long as yao keeps this cpt. loudmouth and his goofies in the airline profits will never be made.

can anyone tell me why the 2nd a320 is still on the ground in rpll? what keeps the aircraft from flying? can yao afford all of these losses or is he simply relying on the lies of loudmouth and company that they will make money in the future when cpt loudmouth orders "his" additional aircraft?

even the airbus guys in france and singapore are already loughing about the operation in the philippines.

[justSIM]

Continental Connection Flight 3407, operated by Colgan Air, was travelling to Buffalo from Newark, New Jersey. Colgan is a unit of Pinnacle Airlines.
The 74-seat plane -- a Dash 8 Q400 turboprop made by Canada's Bombardier Inc -- lost contact with air traffic controllers and went down at about 10:20 p.m. EST on Thursday before the runway at the Buffalo airport, authorities said.

[Sharpie]

Dear Sim. You may well find that the D8 crash was not caused by crew actions or lack of actions, but the MA60 quite possibly was. IMHO.:suspect:

[ads1963]

And again in Caticlan but this time they blew their tires when they tried to stop the aircraft at the end of the runway in order not to overshoot again. Better blow tires than a smashed fruit juice can!:8:D

Philippine Flight Simmers Group &bull; View topic - zesr air caticlan blown tires ? (http://www.philskies.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11901)

Hi guys,

yes, it was RP-C8895 that blew the tires on 13FEB, but it's flying again - as well as RP-C8894, which had the wing damage. The aircraft was still at Clark on Saturday, but flying quite lively out of Manila today. NOT seen flying today was RP-C8892.

What I found funny was that the mechanics changing the tires has "ZA" (I guess for Zest Air) and large "8893" on their black T-shirts. Now 8893 is the aircraft that crashed at MPH. Are they possibly from the part reclamation team of 8893 ?

Airbus RP-C8898 is now in operation as RP-C8988. I guess with all the 8s they got it all mixed up. Might be an indicator of the organization within the airline. Much has been said about this before.

Peeked over the wall at their compound at MNL Domestic today, and there was only one DHC-7 in Zest Air paint scheme. All the rest were in basic Asian Spirit c/s. Nothing looked very active.



Maybe Zest Air should be renamed into Crash Air!

[sweetdad05]

The type of aircraft has actually nothing to do with the accident involved in here. The bottom line is the error or the wrong decision that the PIC has made. Only he can tell what was in his mind before that crash happened. Would have it been avoided? My sources who were standing at the ramp area watched the aircraft after it made a missed approach, and on its second attempt to land they saw the aircraft trying to make a short approach (not on a standard pattern). Boy...was the pilot in a hurry or what? What I can say for now is that some pilots put a big risk on safety when they decide to do a short "combat like" approach" on an aircraft which they haven't flown that long yet (unfamiliar!!)..thus, the lesson that we may have learned is flying a standard pattern after "missed approach" or "go around procedure" would have been the best solution on that second attempt unless they have no more fuel left to do a standard pattern. And for you guys following this thread I would like to emphasize the fact that this is not an "undershot" but technically "a crash", because the aircaft plunge on a grass land far outside the fence of the Caticlan Airport perimeter fence and probably damaged its LH main landing gear and then bouncing it inside the airport's perimeter and moving further to its final position of the crash.

[B747-800]

once you have an airplane with a low performance mix it with a badly trained crew and blend it with mismanagement and you have a cocktail for disaster.

will zest air wait for this or will they take now drastic actions?

[Airhead Eliminator]

Mr. B747-800 do you really have to sweep general statement in your posts? You keep on badmouthing on anyone you want on this forum. You keep on naming names, You even have the guts to badmouth on CAAP the higher authority in the country. Be careful on what your posting. Calling somebody you don't know unprofessional, and even calling somebody Capt. Loudmouth. Based on your posts you are no different with Capt. Loudmouth, and you act very very professional on that. if you really are a Wide Body Captain I can't imagine how your FOs and SOs think about you. I pity the crew that flies with the "feeling Capt. Perfect I know eveything" :D

[plane whisperer]

Amen :D:ok:

[B747-800]

Mr. B747-800 do you really have to sweep general statement in your posts? You keep on badmouthing on anyone you want on this forum. You keep on naming names, You even have the guts to badmouth on CAAP the higher authority in the country. Be careful on what your posting. Calling somebody you don't know unprofessional, and even calling somebody Capt. Loudmouth. Based on your posts you are no different with Capt. Loudmouth, and you act very very professional on that. if you really are a Wide Body Captain I can't imagine how your FOs and SOs think about you. I pity the crew that flies with the "feeling Capt. Perfect I know eveything"

why don't you face facts: zest airways is an unprofessionally run operation run by cpt. loudmouth. or can you say something different of him? have you talked to his former pilots and crews in the other airline he worked before as vp operations? aren't the cabin crews happy that he left there?

or did you talk to the former/present crews in the airline where he flew before he retired? what's their opinion about him?

have you talked to the people who are daily suffering under his regime, who are being shouted at by him, cursed by him and called bad words?

fortunately i did talk to them during my stay in the islands and their opinion is the same as mine and many others.

but back to the topicwich is: zest airways MA60 crash landing in caticlan

guess that you also spoke to the pilots who are flying daily this peace of flying steel called ma60 into caticlan and are risking daily their and their passengers life and limbs, haven't you?

[ads1963]

what's up over in the Philippines? Is there any update on the investigation of this accident or is it just another white wash investigation as it also happens here in Thailand?

[sweetdad05]

The AAIIB of the Philippines has already done their investigation though decline to release it's report publicly as usual. However, in my discussion with reliable sources the pilot made an error even after being reminded by his FO of their situation prior to the crash...i doubt if the real result will be released for public consumption. We must accept that this is not NTSB, FAA or JAA where initial investigations are being published as soon as available until the final investigation report is made. :}

[Sharpie]

It appears that my thoughts in post 24 may be close to being correct that the accident is more of pilot induced rather than an aircraft fault.

We may never learn the truth a la 'the land of smiles'!:sad:

[B747-800]

@sharpie
It appears that my thoughts in post 24 may be close to being correct that the accident is more of pilot induced rather than an aircraft fault.

We may never learn the truth a la 'the land of smiles'!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

thanks for the update. so zest air put all the liability onto the poor crew!

in your post 24 http://www.pprune.org/4644931-post24.html you've said:

Why just charge the crew?

Why before doing so or even contemplating such an action fully investigate the whole operator set-up.? Why shoot the messenger?


i underwrite this without any hesitation. did the philippine caa do a safety audit on zest air and when was the last one? did they pass or did they find reasons that zest air should not operate?

would certainly begin looking at the training of all pilots; ground as well as flight training. Was it adequate, are the crew trained in CRM, how many check rides do they perform into 'short' airstrips, who teaches them such 'low' approachs that nessesitate road closures to permit landings, are they operating outside of the aircraft's performance envelope. Have a very good look at the operator's culture; look at the senior flight management; the company financial strength. Investigate fully all aspects of the operation before 'shooting the pilots'.


i've spoken to a crew of lao airlines with whom zest air seems to have some type of cooperation in both technical and operational aspects. i was surprissed to learn that the crews were only trained on a c class simulator and never underwent a full emergency training.

this might be also one of the secondary causes to blame in this crash landing. according to the lao crew the pilot follow strict military discipline and there is no crm or culture in the cockpit: i am in command and you do what i tell you and don't object to my action.

As you should be well aware of, an accident may not be the result of just hitting a runway; it could be the result of many factors, poor airmanship, inadequate training, company pressure,peer pressure , poor CRM, crew status, or a host of other factors in place well prior to an accident, all coming together as the 'Swiss Cheese' example. Result. an accident.


i underwrite this also 100%. the lao guys told me that zest air is training their people without proper sylabulus and training aids. its like: okay guys you know how to fly and that's what you gonna do here with the ma60. fly it and land it and be punctual and save fuel.

the objections of the vp ops are not being listened to. he is left alone and has to scramble to get things organized. poor g!

the management only worries on how to earn money but not about safety standards, training and proper aircraft planning. according to the lao crew their are take-offs which are overloaded by as much as 5% from manila because zest air has to accomodate pax and cargo. more than often the reduced payload on to in caticlan is exceeded and papers are made looking good.

I hope that RP authorities can and do complete a thorough investigation into this accident in light of many other undershoots or over-runs in the past few years. There appears to be deficiencies in basic flying standards.

Happy safe flying!


in thailand you have one2go, the philippines has zest air. money talks in investigations and the result is being properly discussed and adjusted before its release. this is also the reason why the islands will maintain the banana island status with faa in the cat 2.

i've just seen an interesting article about this status here:

http://philippineairspace.*************/2009/03/aviation-upgrade-unlikely-until-2010.html

The Philippines may have to wait until next year for its aviation rating to be upgraded to category 1 status as the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines (CAAP) has yet to complete the FAA’s safety compliance checklist to qualify for an upgrade. The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) was also reviewing the progress of the Philippines as it sent its own men last January to evaluate its technical capability.

any result from easa already? are you guys in the island being downgraded to blacklist status?

The U.S. Department of Transportation’s Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) found in November 2007 that the Philippines failed on six out of the seven components of the FAA’s aviation audit which encompasses international safety standards set by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).

These are:
1. primary aviation legislation,
2. specific operating regulations,
3. technical guidance,
4. qualified technical personnel, licensing and certification,
5. continued surveillance obligations and
6. resolution of aviation safety issues.


my fair guess: none of the points above has been addressed properly so faa and easa can sign off on it.

Among specific details being questioned by the FAA are:
1. the pencil marks on airmen licensure tests,
2. poor record keeping due to the absence of librarians,
3. no updated handbooks or master copies for handbooks on airworthiness, aircraft, and pilot inspection, and
4. lack of personnel training.


money makes the philippines go and also the aviators there.

FAA found it in compliance with ICAO standards. However, after a reassessment in 2005 deficiencies were noted, particularly the promised amended and consolidated legislation on Civil Aviation. The current law, Republic Act 776, which was enacted on 20 June 1952, otherwise termed as the Civil Aeronautics Law of the Philippines, was no longer found to be adequate to support the growing complexity of world aviation safety regulations, and the Philippine government was made aware of it after the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York.

The Philippines came out fine in 2002 because it promised the FAA that the Civil Aviation Authority legislation was coming out soon as it was already submitted in Congress for its approval.


promisses in the islands seem to be as good as the guy who is promissing it.

is this senator arroyo a relative - as usual in the islands - of the president?


Despite the presence of ICAO foreign technical consultants, CAAP is bent on hiring personnel with standards lower than what would be required for one to be a qualified inspector.


right dude, hiring guys who need to line their pockets!

James Hooker, former chief of the ICAO flight safety consultancy panel for the Philippines, wrote in a document dated April 8, 2008 that CAAP people had been dismissive of ICAO recommendations and questioned the United Nations agency’s authority to propose ways on how the agency might overcome the downgrade. ICAO consultants working with the CAAP for months have become “very, very frustrated” with how the country’s officials have been handling the problem. CAAP has yet to fulfill the technical requirements in areas where the FAA found it remiss, and that many of the FAA requirements were still on the to-do list. “They are doing it little by little. We don’t understand anymore if they want an upgrade or they want to remain in Category 2 forever.”
After that statement, the Philippine government sought his replacement and he was relieved by Peter Weiss who now works together with 4 other consultants.
It remains to be seen whether the ICAO, FAA, and now EASA will allow such attitude on compliance and whether it will remain to be engaged with the civil aviation authority in the Philippines as they review the situation to qualify the Philippines for a Category 1 rating.

philippines the republic of bananas and good aviation officials. zest air showed again that they were able to get away with hurting people without being blamed for but it was a "simple pilot's error".

and these simple pilots error might cost the life of people but nobody seems to care over there!

[basic]

Crash Crash Crash!!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Just wait till they land in Runway 24 in caticlan in wet and gusty conditions! Stunt Captains here we go!:D just remember your passengers are not dummies but with blood flowing in there body

Remember the more they land in caticlan the more they get better. go Gazo!

[ads1963]

Does anyone have a copy of the investigation report?

[ecureilx]

Reading some of the past incidents where the reports were 'less than conclusive' .. I am not sure if a report will come, if at all it does come ..

BTW, I was watching the MA-60s in Manila. Compared to the Dorniers and all other TurboProp aircraft I have seen or flown on, including the BN-2 and AN32s, somehow the MA 60's seem to have a very noticeable nose-down attitude at the time of touch down .. I can post some pictures, if I figure out how to ..

Of late, atleast I noticed SeaAir claiming to be the 'fastest flight to Paradise .. ' wonder if Zeste is catching up, regardless of a less than advanced winged aircraft, compared to the Do-328 :E

Is it because of the fast approaches Zeste pilots are making, or do they plan on getting a three-point landing all the time, or simply does the aircraft have a higher approach speed ?

Just wondering out loud .. not to degenerate into a fighting match ..

BTW, I noticed the Zeste A 320s are in full operation .. Wonder how is the load factor. Atleast the MA 60s had 6 pax exiting, for the two Boracay flights I observed. :ok:

[ex146]

you guys know what "MA" on the MA-60 stands for?


--Maling Airplane, hehehe.

jumbolinos land on caticlan every day for months and we never doubted its capability...

we just hope that incident never happened again. just keep everything in the box guys. fly safe.. :cool:

[ecureilx]

By any chance, did the jumbolino 146 land in Basco ?

I saw a picture, with a BAe 146 in the background, and titled Basco !

Curious, as to the short field performance of the 146 !!

[ex146]

yup, we used to fly there. very short field indeed sir. and the slope in basco is one on the reasons why only few planes in the phils could operate there.. and did i mention the 146 doesnt have reverse thrust and autobrake? ;)

aaahhhh i love my 146.. miss her too..

[ecureilx]

Well, maybe a thread drift, but while in Basco, I thought the Do-328 landed pretty fast and short. Must be really close for the 146, even with it's after Speed Brakes.

Anyway, I still wonder why the Zeste's refleeting got rid of some of the excellent STOL aircraft and focussed on A320 and MA 60s.

Anyway, thanks for the info. :ok:

[RAfault]

i heard another one of their MA-60 clipped the same wall in Caticlan where the first incident aircraft came to rest after a hard landing. it flew back to MNL as non revenue flight after an hour... tsk! tsk! tsk! :=

[B747-800]

@RAfault

i heard another one of their MA-60 clipped the same wall in Caticlan where the first incident aircraft came to rest after a hard landing. it flew back to MNL as non revenue flight after an hour... tsk! tsk! tsk! :=


what's new with these "air jeepney operator" zest air with cpt. loudmouth at the helmet? through his "mis-management" style he is limited to shouting, making up stries to his owner and covering up his mistakes and letting others suffer for them.

zest air has always been and will always be a "wanna-be airline" with the attitude of a jeepney operator and the safety record of 1-2-go in thailand.

there are rumors that they even lost their fueltank cap of an ma60 upon landing in manila? anybody knows more about that?

[Lyndon24]

Im an Australian Pilot currently living in the Phils,..its an extremely backwards place in many aspects ,..on average there are around 70 or 80 accidents and incadents per year. About a quarter of those involve fatalitys. Last week my neighbour was supposed to be flying a charter plane which 9 people died on,..lucky he called in sick,..lower levels of training and maintenance and a laxed way of living and culture all mass in creating a environment for such occurences to thrive..

[thrust clb]

70-80 incidents/accidents per year? A quarter of which are fatalities? Where in the world did you get these figures from? Out of your ass?

[ecureilx]

A follow on for the question from thrust clb ...

Lyndon: 70-80 accidents and incidents ? Where did you get that figure ???

And if you count incidents, even runway incursions, RTB, doors unlocking .. you could count on and on ..

The statistics below is for "WORLDWIDE" from a reputed aviation accident database, covering fatal incidents ..
Year Incidents
2006 27
2007 26
2008 32

If I believe your words, I must be scared to even step into Philippines. For a country with 7000 odd islands, air travel is the only way for most people, and comparatively, the safety has been goodt, vis-a-vis some neighboring countries, where lot of airlines have accidents like having highway accidents. I was counting an average of 1 or 2 fatal crash per month for that nearby country.

Any figure to back up your numbers ?

[jester_icarus]

Lyndon,

dude...really???!!!! any suggestions or thesis on how to go about reversing this dilemma? i once read an article under ICAO Proposition 25 that was not passed under Article 15 in 2005 from another country that reversed their backwards state. It reciprocated their entire state of statency.

Love to hear your views on this and possibly a more specific target specific idea to resolve this issue.

Thanks....

[buskoto]

thrust clb... read again. It's not incidents he's talking about, it's "incadents." It's not fatalities he's talking about, it's "fatalitys." He's talking way above our primitive, lax-cultured heads.

Anyone who has a problem with spelling a word will have a problem figuring out the statistics behind that word.

[ecureilx]

A quick add on .. in case you bother to reply.

Having worked with professional pilots for various projects, no pilot worth his salt will fly, if the plane is not safe or poorly maintained.

As for the "incadent" you mentioned, the cause of the crash is unknown, and leaning towards CFIT in bad weather. Now are you accusing the company who owned the plane, and also placing a un-fair concern on the people who fly them as passenger and also as crew ? :=

I was observing the pre flights in some domestic airports, and the pilots and engineers were more than thorough and delaying departure until they were really satisfied. Remember one thing - if a pilot is foolish enough to fly passengers to their death - by agreeing to fly 'dangerous planes', that also means he is on a suicide mission by knowingly flying unsafe planes to his own death also..

Now, before I crawl back to my hole in the wall, what kind of pilot are you? and what do you fly? and what makes you fly unsafe airways? :ugh:

Enough said.

[burnok100]

maybe lyndon is watching the tv series NUMB3RS,... :=

[twotters]

Many moons ago I was asigned in the Islands and flew a DHC6-300 into Caticlan. At that time it was really only a Twotter airstrip and for Islanders and some small GenAv aircraft.

I must say that strip was challenging also for that type of operation specially during the rainy season "diving" behind the hill into the strip.

I've looked at the charts and for any aircraft bigger than an ATR 42 it is a suicidal airstrip except with heavy penalties.

I've seen and even flown as a pax on the MA60. The aircraft looks at first glance "okay" but don't look into the performance of this lady. She is flying like a old bomber aircraft even from regular airfields.

My questions are simple and straight to the point: How could the ATO give the aircraft a type certification and why does ATO permit this "lazy granny" to land in an airfield like that?

Maybe someone/two/three could gimme a fair answer to that.

[rpc938]

twotter said it best.

to possibly answer his question.....My questions are simple and straight to the point: How could the ATO give the aircraft a type certification and why does ATO permit this "lazy granny" to land in an airfield like that?


they allowed it because the "book" said it was within the performance capability, albeit in standard conditions.

rumor, even the competitor's expat training captains have their reservations flying their european turbo-prop into Caticlan. (Naturally, they know that a "standard" condition is desirable, but the real world condition is not always "standard")

for as long as that hill at the end of rwy06 remains and the runway is not lengthened, and pilots remain human, i fear there will be more accidents at Caticlan.

[eliptic]

Hi,

I am quite often flying Manila -Caticlan,what A/C would you say is "safe" to fly there??

I never fly Zest again thats for for shore:=:ugh:

[ecureilx]

http://images3.jetphotos.net/img/2/1/5/6/56527_1238074651.jpg

Wonderful landing in Caticlan !!!:ok: :ok:

[eliptic]

Wow.. that looks like a intelligent approach,,

Captain is not afraid to get the gear between his legs in C/P?

[ecureilx]

I was mesmerized by the MA 60 landing in Manila - always came in fast, and always nose down, and flared only at the last moment.

I thought my eyes were deceiving me - until I saw the picture :ok:

Seems the MA 60 drifts in Nose down and has a rock solid Nose Gear - I hope they don't get points for a Nose-strike ..

[twotters]

@ eliptic

Hi,

I am quite often flying Manila -Caticlan,what A/C would you say is "safe" to fly there??
I never fly Zest again thats for for shore

Seeing the pics I also would say so. I have never seen in my carrier - and i've about 15,000 hrs + - a Turboprop landing constantly like this, not even the MA60s in Laos! They will soon have a major nosegear malfunction. This type of landing is calling for it!

To the aircraft type to be operated into Caticlan I think the following aircraft are suitable without penalty under the present RWY conditions:


BN2
Do228
Do328
DHC6-300 and the new -400
DHC7
to a certain extend the ATR42
to a certain extend the DHC8-300But definetly not the Q400 and the ATR72-500 and surely not the MA60.

It is absolute stuoidity and ignorance on the part of your ATO to let these 3 types operate under real world conditions in Caticlan.

I have made - according to my logbook - 812 ldgs in Caticlan with one rejected take-off and man I tell you: I sweat blood rejecting that take-off at around 70 kts because of sudden power drop on both engines for unkown reasons!

The MA60 is not the aircraft you wanna be on whit PAX load to t/o or land in that strip. For the ATR72 and the Q400 it looks to me from the charts more possible but still risky. You have to drop your PAX load to about 50% to be somewhat in the safe area for these type of operation but not on full load in and definetly not on full load or even 60-70% load out.

But as in the good old times, money seems to get you anywhere and everywhere in the Philippines and what is the worth for a human life according to insurance premiums in the Phils? Pesos 50,000 (~US$ 1,000 or so)!

Guess you guys flying in the beautiful islands would know it better but from my viewpoint: In the spirit of safety I would dare flying into Caticlan with any of the birds above because McKillroy is watching you!

If it goes 10,000 times right there will be a 10,001 time when something goes wrong and than you hurt or even kill PEOPLE!

Btw. is the airstrip in Sicogon Island still operating and which airline/s are operating there? Was one of my favorite dirt strips in the islands.

[St. Ex]

The runway on Sicogon Island is still there but special arrangements need to be made in order to land there because it is no longer actively used. The company was forclosed by the creditor banks in the 80s and the island is full of squatters and former residents that have returned after having been relocated.

I used to fly there in the late 70s.

[yowdude]

WTF????? what kind of a landing is that?

[ads1963]

Crash: Services Air AN26 at Isiro on May 26th 2009, impacted ground on approach (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=41a42e43&opt=0)

an AN26 crashed in Congo. That's the original design of the MA60. I like the comment to this crash in the lower part:

"Antonov should stop producing the pieces of crap. Give it a year and the whole problem of them plowing in left, right and centre should have solved itself. Mainly because they'll have all crashed by then. "

Although Russian built aircrafts have received a bad rap throuh the years folling many crashes, they are just as sound as American built aircrafts. What makes an aircraft unsafe is a lack of prevenative maintaince, and routine checks carried out by highly trained maintaince staff.




Isn't this also the case with the MA60s over in the Philippines?

O'Dear,

Them flying barrels of unairworthiness seem to have a one in one chance of crashing.

Antonov should stop producing the pieces of crap. Give it a year and the whole problem of them plowing in left, right and centre should have solved itself. Mainly because they'll have all crashed by then.

Once they've all crashed the Market Traders in the Congo can get on with some trading without having to live in constant fear of some giant Russian rusted up tube of unquestionable death missiling it into their Market Place!




The Island of the Philippines should be included.

[ads1963]

Now they are buying additional 6 MA60s. Wtf, has the Philippine CAAP never learned fromt the experience with the latest crash or is somebody lining his pockets there?

ATW Daily News (http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=16791)

Zest orders six more MA60s

Wednesday June 3, 2009 http://atwonline.firstlightera.com/ERA/ResourceHandler.ashx?270f443f-b1ca-4d1d-854d-1bb0197599aa;ATWNoLinkBlock2.gif (http://atwonline.firstlightera.com/EN/Interface/Redirect.htm?dest=http%3a%2f%2fatwonline.firstlightera.com%2 fEN&location=9525291f-5dd5-44c3-bafa-1cab8d0bbe93&type=11)

Zest Air of the Philippines placed an order for six additional MA60s. The carrier, formerly Asian Spirit, already operates five of the Chinese-built aircraft and expects to take delivery of the newly ordered planes starting in October. Two more will arrive in December, with the remaining three coming next year, AVIC's Xi'an Aircraft Industry Co. said. The MA60 has received 92 firm orders, with letters of intent signed for another 70. The MA600 has received 12 orders.

[ads1963]

When ist Yao learning from the experience of MERPATI? And when is your CAAP/ATO waking up that this bird is unsafe? Does it need another crash?

ANTARA News: Merpati to decide continuation of MA-60 procurement: Minister (http://www.antara.co.id/en/view/?i=1244849791&c=BIZ&s=)

Merpati to decide continuation of MA-60 procurement: Minister

akarta (ANTARA News) - Transportation Minister Jusman Syafii Djamal said it is up to Merpati Nusantara Airlines whether or not it would continue its purchase of Xian MA-60s following its finding of a crack on the tale of the Chinese made aircraft.

The minister said that Merpati had the full rights to continue the procurement or not because it was a matter of business between the producer and the consumer.

"After the cause of the structural damage to one of the two MA-60s is found it would be up to Merpati whether it would continue or not," the minister said here on Friday.

The minister made the remarks in response to Merpati`s step to ground one of the two Xian MA-60s it has purchased from China because it found a crack on the tale of one of the two planes late last month.

Merpati and Xian must cooperate and have coordination to find the cause of the crack on the tale of the plane which was sold at a price of 15 million dollars.

According to records over in the Philippines Yao paid for all 5 aircraft only US$57 million. Indonesia seems to line their pockets more with the purchase!

The minister said that the causes of the damage must be found whether it was caused by operational mistakes, mistake during its production or during its assembling.

"If the causes are technical, it should also be discussed technically. It is a matter of business between the producer and consumer," he said.

The minister said he had also been told by Xian MA-60 factory that all of the damaged components had been taken to China.

Previously, the Indonesian National Air Carrier Association (INACA) said that the commitment of Xian MA-60 producer whose products were operated by Merpati was worth questioning.

"We are surprised to hear it. The management of Boeing or Airbus companies is very quick in giving response to a problem," INACA Secretary General Tengku Burhanuddin said.

Over in Laos they also have problems with the operation of this piece of flying coffin. One could say: ONLY in the Philippines!

[buskoto]

And when is your CAAP/ATO waking up that this bird is unsafe? Does it need another crash?

Yes.:rolleyes:

[AngDaga]

another zest air plane just overshot the runway in caticlan...

[ecureilx]

Zest Air blames bad weather as plane overshoots runway
Manila Times

NEW player and budget airline Zest Airways Inc. blamed bad weather after flight Z2-863 overshot the runway at Caticlan Thursday morning, which prompted the Civil Aviation Authority of the Philippines (CAAP) to close the airport until Friday.

Zest Air owner Alfredo Yao said the MA60 plane with tail number RPC 8992 exceeded the runway of Godofredo Ramos Airport in Caticlan, Aklan because of the abnormal weather.

Just in April this year, another Zest Air plane, formerly Asian Spirit, also experienced the same incident at the Caticlan airport.

Yao said Zest Airs five MA60 planes were brand-new and the company never used the aircrafts of the old Asian Spirit.

Yao assured that other domestic flights of Zest Air are in normal operation.

As a matter of fact, the Asian Spirit planes - i.e. Let 410 and the DHC - had much better field performance and could have stopped in less than half the distance requried .. :mad: :mad:

Old planes - not always bad planes ..

And even the BAe 146 flies in shorter runways, where the MA 60 would scrape the fence off the air fields ..

[powerstall]

where are the dash 7's anyway?

[ecureilx]

Last time I was passing by Pasay, I saw them engine-less. Not sure if they have been disposed of, or who owned them in the first place.

The Dash-7 would have made an excellent option to re-start ops into Basco and other places.

[twotters]

Is it true that the FO is the same as in both crashes?

[yowdude]

overshoot again in caticlan:


blame it on the rain -hahahaha what a joke:}

brake calipers and rotors - made in china. WTF?????

[icefire1142]

now because of zest caap issued a memo for a strict compliance for the standing caticlan notam of one way in one way out. land 06 and t/o 24 irregardless of wind, less pilots discretion to choose rwy. Any comments??

[icefire1142]

CAAP bans ?two-way? traffic in Caticlan airport (http://businessmirror.com.ph/home/regions/12372-caap-bans-two-way-traffic-in-caticlan-airport.html)


any comments

[jester_icarus]

read it....... hmmmmm

CAAP proposal to extend runway to accommodate an AirBus320 or similar.

and/or

Take down the hill on approach end of 24......

...the latter would be a travesty.....


the first proposal....hold on..im choking on my KFC dinner...

[M 0.78]

I started flying into Caticlan back in the 70's when it was still a grass strip. I have no idea why ATO/CAAP made it a one-way runway. We used to take-off and land over the hill all the time. Nobody ever hit it.

But people used to overshoot 06 all the time landing with a tailwind. They must have rebuilt that fence at the end a few dozen times.

There used to be a semi-permanent downdraft just before the threshold of 06 where the nipa swamp was. Dunno if it's still there.

[skypilot320]

I would to apply for a A320 F/O job with Zest Airways,as my wife and my kids is living now in the Philipines,and I am just hoping if some one,can help me to send my CV or put me in contact with them please?, I would really appreciate your help regarding a Pilot position if possible,with Zest Airways:)

[skypilot320]

Hi any one there!?

[xdsh7]

zestair ...flt ops luk 4 ms malu at 02 8540993:ok: