BAC Three-Eleven

[Seat62K]

As a schoolboy, I was fortunate enough to be invited to BAC Brooklands/Weybridge just a few days before the first flight of the last VC10 to be constructed (but that's another story).
The One-Eleven thread has reminded me of the small Three-Eleven mock up which I saw at Brooklands.
Does anyone know/remember how far that project got? Am I right in thinking that the A300 was responsible for killing it off? Any relevant information would be gratefully received. Many thanks.
P.S. Was there ever a Two-Eleven project?

[bizdev]

I dont know how I 'know' this or whether I just dreamed it - but I seem to remember that a BAC2-11 was an A300 size aircraft with RB2-11 engines (hence the name).

I could be wrong though!

bizdev

[rogerg]

From what I remember it was going to be like an a600 but with an engine in the tail as well.

[Dr Jekyll]

I think the 3-11 was A300 sized but with rear mounted engines. The British government decided that getting back into Airbus was a better bet.

There was a lot of interest in the 3-11 from airlines, including some with experience in operating BAC equipment who might well have felt more comfortable with it than with an Airbus product. But there probably wasn't room for both aircraft.

[WHBM]

Laker actually placed an order for the Three-Eleven. Not sure whether deposits were paid of how firm the order actually was.

interest in the 3-11 from airlines, including some with experience in operating BAC equipment who might well have felt more comfortable with it than with an Airbus productThis is a valid point. The first years of Airbus A300 production got a lot of sales from old one-time Caravelle operators, who knew Toulouse products and their sales and support staff.

The Three-Eleven was a twin, smaller that the A300, as it was to use the version of the RB.211 that initially powered the Tristar. Airbus needed more power than this for their 300-seat twin design, and Rolls (initially the lead engine) went to the government for funding for it, who turned them down. Airbus then looked to GE in the US, who had not built a civil engine since the Convair 880/990 fiasco - and the rest is history .....!

Not that I'm saying that government support is necessarily a good thing, for at the same time the French government put much funding into the Dassault Mercure, and that was a complete sales disaster ! However, undeterred they came back 15 years later and funded a very similar-sized A320. Results were a bit different this time.

[Daveg4otu]

FWIW In the late 60s/early 70s I used to regularly vist the BAC factory at Hurn and on one occasion saw a mockup cabin which was I believe , the Three-eleven....however - can't remember exact date and did not make notes off it at the time so it may possibly have been earlier rather than later and thus been the Two-eleven.

[Jhieminga]

As a schoolboy, I was fortunate enough to be invited to BAC Brooklands/Weybridge just a few days before the first flight of the last VC10 to be constructed (but that's another story).
It may not fit this thread, but if you send it to me I'm sure I can find a place for it on my website :ok:

[safetypee]

I have a copy of a document on the joint government/BAC research into Reduced (R), and Short (S) Takeoff and Landing (R/STOL) aircraft (July 1974). There is a page in the RTOL section where two large aircraft configurations are considered - twin RB211 types and the 12 tonne (CFM56) type.
For the larger type, there is a distinctly 1-11 looking aircraft (twin RB211, project 243) with a ‘T’ tail, and another very much like an A300.
Of the smaller types, again there is a 1-11 looking aircraft, a mini 3 eng ‘Tristar’, and a big 4 eng ‘BAe 146’. The latter variant is also discussed in the STOL section, which indicates some of the background to the smaller BAe146.
One of the conclusions is that for the larger aircraft, an R/STOL design had no overall advantage over a conventional configuration with good aerodynamics.
I suspect that much of the 3-11 work was incorporated in the Airbus A300 – the wings for example were of Hatfield origin (design and build), and many systems aspects were shared designs with BAC – Weybridge, Hatfield, Bristol.
I believe that the mock up / prototype control column for the 3-11 was used in the Advanced Flight Deck simulator at Weybridge, which was used to develop CRT instruments before the advent of the A320 (I evaluated this on several occasions 1976-80). The flight model for the simulation was distinctly A300 like, I suspect that it had 3-11 origins, but it probably was a true A300 in the latter days. The simulator flight deck size and layout also appeared to have 3-11 origins.

[dixi188]

I was an apprentice at Hurn from 1969 to 1973.
When I started we were building One Elevens but the big new thing was the Three Eleven.
There was a cabin section mock up, in 101 hanger I think.

The deal was, IIRC, that BAC wanted a 50 million loan from the government and needed "Letters of Intent to Purchase" for 50 aircraft from 3 airlines, one of which must be American, for this to happen.

On "D" day (1st Jan 1971 I think) They had 47 letters from 4 airlines, Braniff, American Airlines, British United and Laker. This was not enough to satisfy Ted Heath's government so the project was scrapped. I believe it was thought that BAC were getting enough money for Concorde and there would be no more.

As an aside, the Minister of State for Industry, who made the decision, was Bournemouth West MP, John Eden. Thus condeming many of his constituents to redundancy. He still got re elected though.


The Three Eleven was to start life as a 200-250 seater about the size of the A310. Growth versions were on the drawing board.

I have some sales literature at home, so I'll try to post it here next week.

I think it could have been a good seller as it would have been in service 1 or 2 years before the A300 and had already sold in the US. Airbus didn't get their first US sales until the late 70's.

One good thing about it not being built though, is that it was to be 2 crew from the start and if they were converted to cargo there would be no F/E job for me. I'm on the A300-B4 which still has an F/E.

Thanks for jogging my memory.

40 years in aviation and still going strong!

Dixi.

[MReyn24050]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/BAC3-11.jpg

[ICT_SLB]

I, too, was an apprentice at Hurn during the 3-11's time. During my stint in the D.O. with Glynn Topp & Colin Barrett, I was charged with drawing (very badly) a wire harness layout for the 3-11. Beleive it got cancelled shortly thereafter when JET (Joint European Technology) lost out to Airbus and nearly everyone at Hurn went over to doing Concorde schematics and wiring diagrams. As far as UK input to the Airbus is concerned, when I later went over to Toulouse on Concorde, I was told that the A300 radio racks & trays were Concorde units just renumbered.

[straightfeed]

Bit misty here but as a prisoner in the DO at BAC Weybridge from about 1968 a few memories come back.

The 2-11 was a VC10 fuse with a new wing ("peeky" section was the buzz word) with 2 RB2-11s at the tail. Sort of big 1-11. The -22 engine needed no further development so costs much lower.

Word was that the UK Government wouldn't help finance it as it was not advanced enough.

Next the 3-11 appeared on the boards as a complete new aircraft complete with the -524 engines but layout as the 1-11. A likely customer was BEA and despite BAC sales people trying to sell a plane to match BEA routes, BEA started to influence the design. The fuse got smaller, the engines reverted to the -22 version.It became a BEA version complete with Cat 3 autoland. Another Trident! In an effort to not have a rear side panel the flight deck ended up proposed as 3 pilots in a line with separate left and right thrust/flap levers.

Quickly it became clear that a second version should be offered to the rest of the world.

BEA came back asking for more range/ payload, as originally proposed. I actually saw a version proposed as having the -22 engines plus a Viper engine on each wing tip!!!!

I remember we proposed a glass cockpit but the board wouldn't risk it. I have to say the technology was somewhat unreliable!

Endless meetings, too much influence from BEA. Never knew what finally happened to the 3-11 but my next job was working on a Permbroke refurb contract. Time to leave the great British aircraft industry.

SFD

[tornadoken]

For Technicals see: R.Payne,Stuck on the Drawing Board,Unbuilt Br.Commercial A/c,Tempus,2004 and G.Freschi, The BAC 3-11, Tempus,2006.

Politics: 1965 Euro-talks on military and civil Aero, inc. a Big Twin. Bids, 10/66: HSAL/Breguet/German Nord Group/RB207: HBN-100; BAC/Sud Galion; BAC/Short’s rear/Sud wing 2-11. UK rebid to join EEC 10/5/67; Govts. chose HSAL/German and French Sud Groups A300/RB207 25/7/67,it being "understood" that BEAC would order it.

BAC lingered on 2-11 till 12/67, then put $4Mn. into 3-11 with RB211-61, Short's workshare, and sought other partners, inc. Japan. On 10/4/69 UK withdrew from A300, it serving no purpose after CDG's second "Non" - also left ELDO Europa launcher. France/FRG redefined A300B/CF-6 and proceeded 25/5/69. FRG put up some of the R&D to keep HSAL in on wing. BEAC talked big about Buying British, took anything but, and BAC abandoned 3-11 after the new Govt. on 3/12/70 declined to Aid it.

[lawrence hole]

For anyone who can get there, there is a RAeS Lecture on this aircraft at the Brooklands Museum on Wednesday, 16th January starting at 18.30hrs.
The lecture which is a joint one with the I. Mech E ,will be given by Mr Graziano Freschi. Guests can pay at the entrance to the Museum Clubhouse. Fee: £ 2.50:)

[beamender99]

For anyone who can get there, there is a RAeS Lecture on this aircraft at the Brooklands Museum on Wednesday, 16th January starting at 18.30hrs.
The lecture which is a joint one with the I. Mech E ,will be given by Mr Graziano Freschi. Guests can pay at the entrance to the Museum Clubhouse. Fee: £ 2.50http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

By coincidence, I attended this same lecture on Thursday night at another RAeS group meet.
It was very good with lots of detail. He covered the background history of British commercial aviation and the politics involved. Plus of course lots of historic photos of post WW2 aviation.
Lots of details on the BAC 3-11 as you would expect from the author of the book The BAC Three - Eleven. ( The British Airbus That Should Have Been )
Well worth £2.50 in my opinion.

[Phileas Fogg]

Interesting to see the Laker pic above.

It was Sir Freddie Laker who designed the 3-11 :)

[dixi188]

Next Wednesday is 14th Jan.
Can you confirm that the meeting at Brooklands is on Wednesday?

[beamender99]

Royal Aeronautical Society: Branch Detail (http://www.raes.org.uk/branch_detail.asp?branchid=B049)


Event details

Title: The BAC 3-11
Date: Wednesday, 14th January 2009 18:30
Location: Brooklands Museum Summary:
Joint lecture with the I.Mech.E. Speakers:
Graziano Freschi

[chornedsnorkack]

What is the cross-section of BAC 3-11 like? There were fuselage frames, there were cabin mockups - how big is it compared to A300?