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BlueWolf
9th Jan 2009, 10:03
I don't want to seem heartless, but the damned safety barriers are there for a reason.





Tributes flow for Fox Glacier victims - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10551153&pnum=0)

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Tributes flow for Fox Glacier victims
3:07PM Friday Jan 09, 2009



Ashish Miranda, 24, and Akshay Miranda, 22, were crushed by around 100 tonnes of ice, and were the only children of their Indian born parents. Photo / NZPA
Fox Glacier
Related NZHerald links:
Brothers crushed by ice named, glacier search postponed
An Indian-born Melbourne man feared killed on a New Zealand glacier along with his brother, was a popular student who quickly "fitted in" when his family arrived in Australia eight years ago.

Tributes to 22-year-old Akshay Miranda, whose body has yet to be recovered from the Fox Glacier, began appearing on his Facebook homepage today.

The body of his brother Ashish Miranda, a 24-year-old aerospace engineer with Boeing, was recovered on Thursday but the search for Akshay was postponed due to dangerous conditions.

The brothers were crushed by by approximately 100 tons of ice that covered an area of about 10 by 30 metres and was up to five metres thick, after crossing safety barriers at the terminal face to take photos on yesterday afternoon.

Friends posting tributes on Akshay's Facebook page described the Monash University science and engineering student as "a true friend" who fitted in straight away when his family arrived in Australia from Mumbai in 2000.

Family members with police and glacier guides at the base of Fox Glacier today. Inset, top: Ashish Mirand, bottom: Akshay Miranda. Photo / NZPA
"You have always been a great friend," one post said.

"I remember in Year 8 when you arrived in Australia...You fitted in straight away! We will all miss you, mate!"

A university friend wrote: "I can't believe this. You were always the most friendly and truest of friends, always had time for people and loved by everyone.

"Going to uni will not be the same without running into you."

According to Akshay's Facebook page, he attended St Bede's College in Mentone and St James College in East Bentleigh, graduating in 2004.

The last post on his page on Sunday indicated Akshay had braved AJ Hackett's 134m Nevis Highwire Bungy, billed as the highest bungy jump in Australasia.

"A man is measured by the size of his bungy jump.....134m!!!!" he states on his webpage.

Ashish Miranda studied engineering at RMIT University in Melbourne and was one of 10 students in 2006 to win second place in an international competition for helicopter design.

The brothers' parents, Ronnie and Winnie Miranda, were on holiday with their sons at the time and are at Fox Glacier township.

The two brothers were the couple's only children.

The family was due to fly back to Australia on Sunday morning.

Indian website daijiworld.com reported the family had migrated to Melbourne from Mumbai.

Department of Conservation (DOC) staff and glacier workers continue to monitor the glacier and the search will resume as soon as it is safe, Constable Paul Gurney said.

Ice face collapse

Fox Glacier Guiding chief executive Rob Jewell said the men were visiting the glacier - one of New Zealand's most popular tourist attractions - without a guide.

They had apparently gone beyond the glacier's roped-off viewing area and walked for up to 15 minutes to reach the face of the glacier.

While taking photographs the pair were struck and buried by ice after a section of the ice face collapsed, said Mr LeSueur.

Some of the ice blocks in the rubble were the size of large vehicles, he said.

Local guides were quickly on the scene but were powerless to assist due to the unstable and unsafe nature of the current ice structure, said Mr LeSueur.

By nightfall, police, fire service and St John Ambulance staff were at the scene with Department of Conservation staff and six guides from Mr Jewell's company.

The Solid Energy Rescue Helicopter with paramedics from Greymouth was also there.

A digger working nearby helped clear away a small part of debris and found the body of one of the men, however a search for the other man was unsuccessful.

A heavy rain warning issued for the area could have dramatic effects on the glacier and would either assist or hamper search efforts, Mr LeSueur said.

Glacier unstable

He said people visiting areas like the Fox and Franz Josef Glaciers needed to respect safety barriers and notices.

Both the Fox and Franz Josef Glaciers were advancing and had vertical, or in places overhanging, terminal faces.

These were extremely dangerous places to be and were continually subjected to unpredictable rock and ice falls, he said.

Mr Jewell said the glacier's face was an unstable and unsafe place to be at the best of times.

It had frequent collapses which sent large blocks of ice flowing downstream.

Recent warm weather had made the glacier even more unstable.

"The present condition of the terminal face is quite steep," he said.

"We have got warm temperatures ... and obviously we have got frequent ice collapses, but we have had a good sized one [yesterday]."

His company was operating guided tours on the ice throughout yesterday, but none near the glacier face when the accident occurred.

DoC procedures

DoC area manager Jo Macpherson said a lot of people were in the valley yesterday, and it was a member of the public who raised the alarm about the ice collapse.

Conservation Minister Tim Groser said it was a "tragedy of almost unimaginable proportions (for the parents) to lose both sons in one tragedy".

Mr Groser was at Fox Glacier but was staying out of the way of the operational staff conducting the search.

"There are extensive safety procedures in place, these are reviewed annually, there's also been independent assessment of these procedures.

"We're dealing with a situation that is a highly dangerous and dynamic natural environment involving rock, ice and rivers."

The procedures were last reviewed in August last year.

He said the facts of the latest incident would be reviewed by the Department of Conservation (DOC), police and probably the coroner.

There will always be risk, but also "some responsibility on the part of these individuals who go into these areas".

Tourist injured in 2007

The last glacier incident involving injury to a tourist occurred in February 2007, when a man standing beside an ice cave at the face of the Franz Josef Glacier, also on the West Coast, was struck by falling debris when the roof collapsed.

DoC said that year that almost one third of the 600,000 visitors to the West Coast glaciers ignored warning signs and entered danger zones.

In October 2000, a 30-year-old Thai tourist was severely injured when she crossed a safety barrier and was crushed by an icefall.

Asked yesterday if people were continuing to flout the rules, Mr Jewell said: "Unfortunately, yes.

"People don't seem to realise the risk they are putting themselves in.

"They are inexperienced people and they are on holiday and maybe their guard is down. They just don't understand the potential for something to happen. A lot of people just like to touch the ice, which is a pretty crazy thing to do."

- AAP, OTAGO DAILY TIMES, NZPA

Ancient Mariner
9th Jan 2009, 10:19
Tributes? Here's another one: Well done!
Per

Parapunter
9th Jan 2009, 10:24
A couples only children killed on holiday. Born in India, raised in Melbourne. Not glacier experts then.

Seems they ignored the warnings & ventured to their deaths. That is reckless and yet this thread invites opprobrium as readers see fit. I'm only glad it wasn't my child who did something stupid & died for it.

Ancient Mariner
9th Jan 2009, 11:31
If you are no clacier expert, heed the warnings. If you are no aviation expert, like for instance a passenger, follow the safety instructions and warnings posted. Simple, really.
Per

ThreadBaron
9th Jan 2009, 11:39
fitted in straight away
As he will his coffin.

Lon More
9th Jan 2009, 11:41
Allah Akbar ?

anotherthing
9th Jan 2009, 11:42
so two more people have died through their own stupidity - natural selection at work perhaps?

What about the poor buggers who have to now cross the safety barrier and take risks to recover the bodies?

Scumbag O'Riley
9th Jan 2009, 11:49
Being somebody who used to do that sort of thing they will make it a remarkably risk free operation.

I vote 'Tragedy'.

And now cannot get the bloody Bee Gees out of my head.

Parapunter
9th Jan 2009, 11:51
That they were stupid is not in question. That they paid the highest price for that stupidity is not in question. What I find distasteful is the invitation and gleeful joining in of people who wish to point out how stupid those dead boys were.

Some of you commenting have doubtless never done a dumb thing in your lives.

bnt
9th Jan 2009, 11:56
As already pointed out, these folks aren't always around glaciers, but were just visiting, so I don't see any evolutionary impact here. Call it a tragedy...

BUT: one of the guys was trained in Engineering, yet he chose to ignore safety warnings and barriers? I would not want such an "Engineer" designing any equipment or structures that my life might depend on.

anotherthing
9th Jan 2009, 11:58
Scumbag - if the body is under huge blocks of ice, at the foot a a large fall, there will surely be some risk involved, although of course the experts will mitigate that risk as much as possible.

Parapunter - there are different levels of stupidity - these guys reportedly walked for up to 15 minutes beyond the safety barriers to get a photo, it wasn't just a quick jump over the barrier to get a picture without having the barrier spoil it.

Dushan
9th Jan 2009, 12:01
Here is another "genius" approach:

Gu Gu strikes again! Panda attacks zoo visitor
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28554008/)

Beijing zoo officials said this marks the third time that Gu Gu has attacked a zoo visitor. This time, the man jumped into the panda's pen to retrieve a toy his son had dropped.

viktor inox
9th Jan 2009, 12:05
Why should Indians automatically not have any experience with glaciers? The Himalayas are full of them.

But, more surprisingly, both young men have tertiary education, with one being an aerospace engineer and the other an engineering student at Monash in his final year.

McDoo
9th Jan 2009, 13:11
I'm an experienced car driver. Still wouldn't jump out of the bloody thing at 70mph.

Scrubbed
9th Jan 2009, 13:25
What about the poor buggers who have to now cross the safety barrier and take risks to recover the bodies?

Why should the recovery be so dangerous? Just wait for the spring thaw.

Or, polish the block of ice to a nice opaque, trolley it over to the barrier and stand it upright there as a more concise Warning Sign. They need not have died in vain...

.----
| :uhoh: |
|.....|
|.....|
|.....|
.----

corsair
9th Jan 2009, 13:26
It's tragedy. Young men do stupid things every day and get away with it. Sometimes they don't. Recently some teenagers too young to drive bought an old car. Five crammed in. All went well until the tight corner and the ubiquitious tree. Three of them died. Another tragedy.

A young military pilot had just dropped off some passengers at an airstrip. 'Watch this' was the text message he sent to one of them just before take off. Apparently it was spectacular and fatal. Another tragedy.

So it goes. Somehow I lived through my young man phase of insane risk. Unfortunately I have my two sons phase to look forward to.:(

BlueDiamond
9th Jan 2009, 14:46
I believe it's natural selection at work. We no longer have to hunt down dangerous creatures in order to get a feed, and we no longer live in a treacherous environment where you learned quickly that the wrong move resulted in disaster. Nature has had to develop other ways of ensuring the survival of the species because it is no longer the biggest/strongest/quickest who will survive, it is the smartest/wisest/most intelligent.

If people do not get a serious attack of the smarts in a hurry, they will sooner or later pay the price for it. The young driver who fails to realise the risk, the person who fails to follow safety procedure, the one who ignores warning signs ... they are the ones who will get caught out. It's not a tragedy or a cause for giggling or some sort of cosmic judgement or anything else, it's just a perfectly ordinary example of mother nature at work.

OFSO
9th Jan 2009, 15:36
We had a death here on the Muga River (Catalunia) at Christmas. Heavy rains had flooded the Villanova de la Muga road/river crossing. Police errected steel barriers and strung "police lines - do not cross" tape between trees. And there are permanent signs: "Do not cross when river in flood".

A young hotel/restaurant worker arrived at the river bank at 2 a.m. that night with three friends in his car. They looked at the torrent and refuse to cross, got out: the driver said "I can make it" moved the barriers, drove through the tape..... and was found drowned two days later downstream after workers risked their lives recovering his car from the riverbed.

It will always happen as long as young people exist.

pigboat
9th Jan 2009, 15:55
The same thing happened in British Columbia recently. Despite avalanche warnings, eleven young men went snowmobiling in the area. The first slide got a bunch of them and as they went to dig out their comrades, a second slide got the rest. Eight of them died.


But, more surprisingly, both young men have tertiary education, with one being an aerospace engineer and the other an engineering student at Monash in his final year.

One should not equate education with smarts.

Standard Noise
9th Jan 2009, 16:02
So we've not even settled into the New Year yet and already we have a few candidates for this year's Darwin awards. Well there's a surprise!

barit1
9th Jan 2009, 17:32
One should not equate education with smarts.

How often we observe this aphorism. Put another way:

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
Herbert Spencer 1820-1903

ehwatezedoing
9th Jan 2009, 18:22
Friends posting tributes on Akshay's Facebook page described the Monash University science and engineering student as ....blahblah...
----
According to Akshay's Facebook page, he attended St Bede's College in Mentone and St James College in East Bentleigh, graduating in 2004.
----
The last post on his page on Sunday indicated Akshay had braved AJ Hackett's 134m Nevis Highwire Bungy, billed as the highest bungy jump in Australasia.

"A man is measured by the size of his bungy jump.....134m!!!!" he states on his webpage.


Don't let your Farce book's account open to everyone :E

avi8.5
9th Jan 2009, 23:20
Surely proof enough that intelligence is inversely proportional to common sense :(

ShyTorque
10th Jan 2009, 00:25
Many young men think that rules and safety precautions are only for old fuddy duddies and very young children.

Just glad it's not one of my kids.

News tonight was about a house explosion in Leeds. I'd just had a call from my son who has gone away for the weekend. My first thought was "I wonder if he left the gas on"? :ooh:

RatherBeFlying
10th Jan 2009, 02:56
I've spent a lot of time on and about glaciers and have had a snowbridge give under me when crossing a crevasse -- saved by the rope;)

I've also entertained myself watching car-size ice blocks break off over a 100' drop from well over a hundred yards away.

Also had to self-arrest on a steep ice slope that was cleverly concealed under pebbles that led me to believe it was a scree slope good for plunge stepping -- some glaciers hide under rocks:uhoh:

There's lots of ways to get yourself killed on or about a glacier.

Ice axe, harness, rope, helmet, crampons -- and training -- required.

Monarch Man
13th Jan 2009, 20:06
Just lacking any compassion what so ever

Car firm charges parents after keys buried in glacier with dead son - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10551742)

I'm utterly speechless

BlueWolf
13th Jan 2009, 21:04
Why should the car hire firm be held financially responsible for someone else's deliberate stupidity?

BlueWolf
13th Jan 2009, 21:45
Quite possibly, but that doesn't answer the question.

The situation is thus: person hires rental car. Person takes rental car to tourist location. Person goes outside clearly marked safety area at tourist location. Person is killed by icefall in tourist location, whilst outside clearly marked safety area, and whilst knowingly and deliberately being outside clearly marked safety area. Person's body is unable to be retrieved because of danger posed by possibility of further ice falls. Person has keys to aforementioned rental car in pocket.
Car hire firm is out of pocket to tune of $800 for replacement keys, and further $800 for cost of returning car to original location, so he bills person's family.
Uncompassionate, yes, probably, but why should the consequences of the actions of the person be the car firm's financial responsibility?

airfoilmod
13th Jan 2009, 21:48
Because, and since Spock the Doctor, feelings trump common sense.

AF

(See, money, well, Someone else's money means less than someone's pain. I learnt that at public school) Later, I learned at school that if it's teacher's money, the rules change. I think I remember right. Oh, and also, the rules are laid by people who's business it is not, what's happened. This comes from learning also that it is expected of the smarties to tell others what to think, and the especially wonderful of those to tell people how they should feel.

airfoilmod
13th Jan 2009, 22:05
I fear I've been hurtful. Mrs. Appleford must never know. She wouldn't have approved of Mr.Scrubs foul and mispelled angry hurts either.

Scrubbed
13th Jan 2009, 22:19
He is pissed. Again. I told him to go to bed. He says, "Sorry."

Mrs. Scrubbed.

Monarch Man
13th Jan 2009, 22:26
Car hire firm is out of pocket to tune of $800 for replacement keys, and further $800 for cost of returning car to original location, so he bills person's family.
Uncompassionate, yes, probably, but why should the consequences of the actions of the person be the car firm's financial responsibility?

Perhaps we should bill the family for the damage to the view as well? mayby a law suit for not reading the sign?
In any case, I'd venture to say that despite the crass attitude to an actual family loss, this rental car firm will lose more than $800 in business thanks to its position

621andy
13th Jan 2009, 22:51
Darwin without a doubt...:ugh:

In my experience, the more 'educated' someone is, the less common sense they have...:rolleyes:

airfoilmod
13th Jan 2009, 23:44
seems to be rather a common burden.

Luap
14th Jan 2009, 00:34
Car hire firm is out of pocket to tune of $800 for replacement keys, and further $800 for cost of returning car to original location, so he bills person's family.
Uncompassionate, yes, probably, but why should the consequences of the actions of the person be the car firm's financial responsibility?

If the family has liability insurance that insurance could pay?

con-pilot
14th Jan 2009, 00:40
If the family has liability insurance that insurance could pay?

Good point. With our auto insurance anytime we rent a car we are covered.

er indoors
14th Jan 2009, 00:41
Should an airline repatriate the bodies free? The funeral home not charge? Why should the stupidity of their sons end up someone else's financial burden? Did they not have insurance? If they had died in a traffic accident would these questions even arise? People die in tragic circumstances every day and their families foot the bill without much public sympathy and yet suddenly we Kiwis are considered a heartless bunch.

BlueWolf
14th Jan 2009, 01:13
Apparently the rental was in the parents' name, they didn't have insurance, and the unfortunate young man shouldn't have had the keys because he wasn't entitled to drive the car.

The car rental firm owner has been on the talkback this morning, he's a small private operator with about 40 vehicles, and he has managed to negotiate better prices for both the replacement keys and the car transporter cost, so the family's bill may not end up being anywhere near what it was originally.

I would have thought that the rental firm's insurers would have required all customers to have insurance; perhaps not.

The other local business which is out of pocket is a motel where the family were staying; they apparently asked for their room to be kept for an extra night, but then stayed somewhere else instead, where they racked up a $300 phone bill calling relatives in Australia and India. The other motel owner is paying the phone bill, which is decent of him, but what gets me is that no-one is having a go at Telecom - who could easily have waived the phone bill - over lack of compassion. It is also unlikely that any airline will be offering to fly the body home for nothing, if and when they finally dig it out. It seems to be only the little guys who get it in the neck.

The majority of talkback callers seemed to be on the rental car firm's side, but perhaps this is because the nearer to the event one is, the more subtle nuances of the story one is exposed to.

The thing about the warning signs and safety ropes is that DOC, who administer the site, can't actually stop anyone from going dangerously close to the glacier, because it's in a National Park. These guys didn't just hop over a barrier and get crushed by an icefall ten yards away, they hopped over the barrier (which had been moved back hundreds of metres because of the unstable nature of the glacier at the moment) and walked for 15 minutes over the rocks to reach the terminal face.

Public sentiment here appears to be, generally, "you ignore the warning signs, you disrespect the potential danger, you walk right up to the face of an unstable glacier, :confused: you get bitten by said glacier, you don't have the personal responsibility to carry insurance, and then you expect other people to put themselves in very real danger in an attempt to recover your body (which they did, and which I haven't seen the whingeing Aussie media express any gratitude for), and on top of it, you expect a couple of small businesses to meet the costs of your foolishness. What are ya?"

I am genuinely sorry for their loss. The real tragedy is that they chose to bring it upon themselves. No-one else should be held responsible for that.

Scrubbed
14th Jan 2009, 06:59
Now that I'm sober I fully agree with you, B. Guess there's more than a few people waiting for the spring thaw.

Dunno what I was thinking last night... :(

ExSp33db1rd
14th Jan 2009, 08:33
Blue Wolf - I agree with your Telecom comment, don't start me ! especially as when you try to get any sense out of Telecom ( an oxymoron ) you are often talking to someone in India anyway !!

What bothers me is, if I hire from this car company, and drive to Cape Reinga and accidentally drop the key over the edge whilst trying to be the most Northerly man in NZ - for 5 secs - will I suffer the same fate, i.e. be charged with towing the thing back to X'church ? Whatever happened to spare keys, even of the electronic gadgetry kind, and am I paying my NZ AA membership for nothing, aren't they supposed to be able to get members back into their cars ? Why didn't they ask the nearest passing Hoodie, or backward-cap-wearing teenager ? They could have had it open and started in a jiffy !

NZ Telecom tip: When calling Telecom, and being assailed by that infuriating computer-interactive voice thing - as soon as it starts to speak, vigorously and continuously hit the zero button for about 5 secs. The thing immediately tells you that it will connect you to a human, and you don't have to act like a pratt shouting at a machine. Works every time :ok:

BlueWolf
19th Jan 2009, 06:11
In the interests of consistency, let's hear it from those Prooners (and members of the Aussie media) who believe that the funeral director should bury the boys for free.

(For those idealists and dreamers who genuinely don't know otherwise, it costs money to get put in the ground. Your family pays the undertaker to bury you. Yes, it's true. It costs. Lots. They don't do it for nothing.)

Friday funeral set for two Fox Glacier victims - World - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10552568)
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Friday funeral set for two Fox Glacier victims
New 4:40PM Monday Jan 19, 2009

MELBOURNE - The funeral of the two Australian two brothers killed in an ice fall at Fox Glacier will be held in Melbourne on Friday.

Ashish and Akshay Miranda were travelling with their parents Ronnie and Winnie at the time of the incident, which occurred after the two walked beyond warning signs at the Fox Glacier on January 8.

The body of Ashish, 24, was recovered immediately but the body of Akshay, 22, was buried under hundreds of tonnes of ice.

His body was found a week later last Thursday when it was sighted 10km downstream from the glacier.

It still remains with the coroner in Christchurch but the family is expecting it to be released on Wednesday.

The brothers' uncle, Cedric Miranda, told AAP on Monday that the funeral for the pair would be held at St Peter's Church, East Bentleigh, at 1pm local on Friday.

- AAP

Scrubbed
19th Jan 2009, 07:03
I'm looking, I'm looking... but can't see the source of the irony and the free planting reference. Gissa hint??



PS: how can the body :uhoh: finish up 10km downstream if it "was buried under hundreds of tonnes of ice"?

BlueWolf
19th Jan 2009, 07:28
Well, the thing about glaciers is that when they come down from the mountains, to the low country and the warm weather, they melt and turn into rivers. They always do this. This is why Global Warmists who rave about 'glacial retreat' are misinformed; the rate of glacial advance and retreat is dictated by the amount of precipitation in the glacial catchment in the season preceding (because it is this precipitation which feeds the glacier) and not by relative temperatures at the terminus in the season of melt. If glaciers didn't always melt when they got down to the low country and the warm weather, they'd just carry on being big long rivers of ice, wouldn't they, which would carry on across the land and out to sea, forever and unto the next continent, etc. But they don't. They always have a terminal face, the relative position of which never varies much from century to century.

In this case, the glacial melt has carried the boy's body out from under the terminal morraine, into the River, and to a point of surfacing and recovery some way downsteam.

Rest his soul.

Scrubbed
19th Jan 2009, 07:46
ahhh.... last weak i cooden even spel glayseer now i lernt about wun. thats what i luv about jettblast u kan get edjewkatid hear.

Now what about the free dig?




PS: I think the ice-huggers are complaining about the top part of the glacier melting. That's the bit which is supposed to remain frozen and ever re-newing, isn't it?

BlueWolf
19th Jan 2009, 07:52
Yer, well, the irony about the free dig was supposed to relate to calls for free rental cars, when there was never going to be any free dig, or free air travel, or free phone calls, or free anything else.

As for glaciers, well, in the last ice age the whole of North America was covered by a sheet of ice a mile thick, now where did that go and why, I wonder? Maybe it was those pesky pre-historic Native Americans and their SUVs and coal-fired power stations. Damn, I wish that we white western people had been around 11,500 years ago, so we could blame us for the end of the last ice age.

Scrubbed
19th Jan 2009, 08:01
Ah I'm with you now, on the free dig thing. Still... best not to go giving them ideas. We give enough away as it is, that's why they're here...


now where did that go and why, I wonder?

So does that mean you believe the glaciers are in fact not being "renewed" at the top, after all?

we could blame us for the end of the last ice age

Perhaps it's more important to find out who we blame for beginning it. Was it humans again or could it have been an assteroid...?

BlueWolf
19th Jan 2009, 09:59
Perhaps it's more important to find out who we blame for beginning it. Was it humans again or could it have been an assteroid...?

No, it was definitely us. We (you know, our previous and now lost advanced civilisation, of which we are but the remnants) were probably mucking about with fusion, or something, about the time Atlantis sank, and that messed up the Gulf Stream, same as fossil fuels are supposed to do, tipping the earth into an ice age. Because of course Global Warming causes Ice Ages. Of course, all this is known, by the Freemasons, and the US Government, and the British and the Zionists and the Bilderbergs and the West Alabama Monkey Puzzle Society, but naturally THEY don't want us to know about it, and anyway, all the science is settled, and it's a consensus. I mean I read about it in Nexus Magazine and on the Internet, and the IPCC says so, so it must be true. So there.

OFSO
19th Jan 2009, 10:56
Quote: I think the ice-huggers are complaining about the top part of the glacier melting. That's the bit which is supposed to remain frozen and ever re-newing, isn't it?

The temperature of the surface of the planet Mars has also risen by one degree (or something) over the past decade (or sometime) thus proving our problems come from the sun generating more heat (or light or something, or maybe a different type of energy, possibly The Force).


Seriously, our sun is a variable star, not a big variation but the output isn't constant by any means. Sure we humans should be a lot more careful in burning energy and polluting the place, but there are OTHER reasons why it's getting warmer (or not)....

Brian Abraham
20th Jan 2009, 00:56
thus proving our problems come from the sun generating more heat
Couldn't we just fit a thermostat? Got a spare in the shed in fact.