Merged: Big changes for Qantas cadets [Archive]

newsensation

9th Jan 2009, 07:34

The Cadet scheme is a complete waste of time, the facts are if people leaving school see aviation as a career (read reward for investment) they will put all their energy into it, via training and gaining experience. Conditions as always will dictate the numbers going through to their ultimate choices.
The industry has to realise that people see the various areas of aviation as career choices, regional, domestic and international, and therefore should understand that they have to compete to get capable pilots to join their ranks.
Currently regional management for instance sees no need to try and retain staff as they have some misguided notional idea that everyone employed in the regional airlines will leave if offered a jet job, some of course will but some if offered good wages and conditions would love to stay and make a career of a regional airline. The same applies to Qantas for instance, some pilots detest the idea of long haul but have to become a long haul second officer before becoming a domestic pilot their ultimate choice, some of course want to do nothing but long haul.
I personally hope this is the end of the cadet scheme, it is seen, rightly or wrongly, as a quick track into Qantas for the wealthy or related.
I have nothing against current cadets.

Blue Carpet

9th Jan 2009, 07:48

Costing for the Associate Degree Cadetship.

Total tuition fees - $116,816
Expected Additional Costs - $13,184
Total Upfront Cost - $130,000
CIPP Cost - $10,000
Total Cost Overall - $140,000

If you decide to use FEE-HELP which gives you a low interest loan for $83,313 you are charged an additional fee of $16,662.60 meaning the total upfront costing would be $63,349.60 but the overall package cost is now $146,662.60 and repaying the $83,313 at a later date.

Add to the fact you need to pay an extra $10,000 for the CIPP, the overall Cadetship cost would be $156,662.60 if you decided to use FEE-HELP. If you needed additional hours to get to standard probably more.

When you need to do a gas turbine rating itemized at around $15,000-$16,000 no wonder it is a very expensive course.

Hasselhof it would be very unfair to cancel the current course considering applicants have paid upwards of $1200-$1500 during the selection process. However what decision to be made by Qantas to continue on or not in May is anyone's guess. You say that Qantas should start up its own flying school, just think how Oxford Aviation Academy (GFS) must feel with the course cancelled with the Cadets set to throw that type of money around...

Muff Hunter

9th Jan 2009, 21:13

my heart bleeds....

get a real job you snotty nose little punks like the rest of us instead of getting a golden goose on a silver platter soon after leaving high school!!:yuk:

good on the new cp, he must understand the real value of learning the ropes through ga......:ok::ok:

A Comfy Chair

9th Jan 2009, 21:43

Oh the hard yards argument again.

:rolleyes:

funbags

9th Jan 2009, 22:03

Love ya work Muff!

I'm beginning to like the new cp more and more! :}

rmcdonal

9th Jan 2009, 22:06

For $140K+ They would want to be getting a space shuttle endorsment!

grumpy greyhound

9th Jan 2009, 22:33

Newsensation your comments about quicktrack into QF for wealthy or related and the Muff hunters bit about SNLP,S ,would have to be some of the most ignorant and nastiest stuff I have seen on prune! Regardless of what the background is behind this decision there will always be options for entry into our profession whether military or civil. And no I was not a cadet and yes I work with cadets.Every one still has to make the grade.GG.

lazysundays

9th Jan 2009, 22:55

$140K and find your own job? Why would anyone? Perhaps that's what they're counting on... Instead of dismantling the cadet scheme in a slowdown, just make it unattractive until things pick up again.

mr.tos

10th Jan 2009, 00:15

Cadets were lucky to pay the massive fee when they were guaranteed a job! Now that there is no assurance, who the hell is going to pay 100k + :rolleyes:

Keg

10th Jan 2009, 00:52

Perhaps this is QF's way of killing off the scheme. No sane person would go for it now and so the applications and positions will eventually dry up. Wind the scheme up due to lack of interest.

Of course this will work until a situation such as existed two years ago when GA had been run dry of applicants with what QF deemed to be what they were looking for. Then we'll see a cadet scheme started up again. Will anyone be prepared to take the leap then though?!?!

Personally I think this action by QF is a bit short sighted. Time will tell whether I'm right.

As for Muff, et al. It's all been done before....and not too recently on another thread.

Mstr Caution

10th Jan 2009, 02:21

I'm not ex cadet but have been in the industry over two decades:

It's hardly a cadet scheme any more if you have to find your own industry placement

Probably associated with another thread seen recently whereas industry placement wasn't gauranteed at the end of the cadet training. If the jobs aren't there, how can industry placement be gauranteed.

then line up for testing with the direct entry applicants at the end of it

I would expect, even in the past. Mainline placement wasn't gauranteed post industry placement & even though there may not have been published criteria, the industry placement & on the job performance at the time was the DE selection process.

all you have left is direct entry

On day one on the job both Direct Entries & Cadets are possibly all on the same course. So isnt the end result (disregarding seniority) all the same. That a bunch of recruits all start on the same day. Just how they got there differs.

I've never seen the need for a cadet program anyway

Cadet programs aren't always run for the reasons immediatley apparent. A former Deputy CP would be able to brief you all about that.

It probably reflects recent changes to QANTAS recruiting in general....

Or a downtown in the airline industry in general, forward bookings & flying plans will reflect that.

Does this mean that the QF cadets after doing the course and having gone and done some time in "ga" then have to front up and do the DE process with the same chances of being ruled out as the DE guys?

I would expect that if QF haven't got a close asscociation with where the cadet is placed. They have no idea of on the job performance whilst employed at that entity. If you were employing someone for your organisation & hadnt seen them for a few years would you like to take another sneak peek prior to recruiting someone.

the facts are if people leaving school see aviation as a career (read reward for investment) they will put all their energy into it, via training and gaining experience

The same is true for both cadet & non cadet.

get a real job you snotty nose little punks like the rest of us instead of getting a golden goose on a silver platter soon after leaving high school!!

Muff - Some choose to pay for an endorsement to get a job, others pay for a cadetship to get a job. With a statement like that you obviously have no idea as to the vast differences in background skills & work / life experiences outside aviation that some cadets have. Ever considered that some might be taking substantial paycuts to become a cadet?

Now that there is no assurance, who the hell is going to pay 100k +

As far as I can recall, there has never been any assurances of a job at the end. Just like DE, applicants have had to pass the training & get thru the probation.

Personally I think this action by QF is a bit short sighted. Time will tell whether I'm right.

Cadetships in any industry can stop or start as quick as saying "industry downturn" or "pilot shortage"

MC:8

myshoutcaptain

10th Jan 2009, 02:28

chances of seeing a Qf Cadet on industry placement overnighting at Forrest River with a old C206 :}

mcgrath50

10th Jan 2009, 02:36

From what I have heard the CIPP will still be overseen by QF.

I got the impression it would operate how Work Experience does for Year 10 students, QF will point you in the right direction and council you but it is you that has to knuckle down and ask around for the right place.

It also means if a cadet wants to fly in the Pacific then they can, instruct they can. This will mean cadets with more diverse backgrounds than just working for QFLink of Air North. To me this is a positive move?

Mstr Caution

10th Jan 2009, 02:38

From what I have heard the CIPP will still be overseen by QF

Depends how receptive the particular business is to the overseeing

Tempo

10th Jan 2009, 03:00

Mstr Caution,

Cadet seniority is something that many direct entry guys cannot disregard. Speak to any direct entry guy who joined post feb 2004 and I can tell you that they are extremely p*%ed off at the company and the union for allowing such a situation to develop. Reserving seniority for those on the CIPP is an absolute joke and all it does is highlight how narrow minded the previous CP and union president were. Fingers crossed the cadet program will die a quick death and QF scrap this dated and time expired cadet program. Bring on a level playing field for all applicants and a fair system of seniority allocation.

Keg,

The spin doctor that was Chris Manning would like you to believe that QF needs the cadet program. How many times have we heard that there are not enough suitably qualified GA/Air Force applicants out there. This is absolute rubbish. I think many of us know plenty of guys who have applied to QF, been rejected and now find themselves in the Left/Right seat of an A320/A330 with Jetstar or Virgin. Good enough to fly for Jetstar/Virgin but not good enough for QF????? I don't think so. To insist on a cadet program because of the excuse that there are not enough direct entry applicants is smoke and mirrors.

Mstr Caution

10th Jan 2009, 03:29

Tempo - Hence my comment "disregarding seniority" issues. From my point of view (seniority aside) it doesn't matter whether a guy/girl comes from GA, Airforce, Cadetship or NASA.

astroboy55

10th Jan 2009, 06:34

Tempo, Muff et al...

Seniority/cadets/CIPP/Paid for a job blah blah blah. Get over it. It is what it is. It aint gonna change. Maybe the cadet program will die out, maybe it wont. If it does, when the economy turns around...you can bet your bottom dollar it will be back quick smart.
Just because someone has done time in GA, doesnt mean they automatically deserve a place in QF/J*/VB whatever. There are plenty of nuff nuffs who think they 'own' a slot in these airlines just because they've been in GA. Pisses me right off. To balance the above...i completely agree that there are some cadets and people from other flying backgrounds that are also muppets, and also believe a slot is theirs. Again pisses me off. Anyone who got into these airlines did so ON THEIR OWN MERITS....no-one should be ostracised etc just because of their backgrounds.

teresa green

10th Jan 2009, 06:44

I agree with the "old school" thinking. If a S/O has not beaten himself/herself around the bush for a few years scaring the Cr$p out of themselves on a least one occasion, then they are not much use to a airline. You cannot build a safe brick wall, unless you have a good foundation. In a word "Airmanship" cannot be learnt in a Sim, no matter how hard they try to tell you it can. With 24,000 hrs,16,000 on Jets, and check and training over 20 yrs, you can always tell a kid who has learnt the hard way. The only way. I have three flying, including a female, they were told to go bush, Daddy was not going to pay for something they had to learn, and learn they did, and some horror stories came out of it,(like having to live in a car, and live four to a room)!! but they look back on that time and are grateful for it, the time they spent in the bush. They are all in Airline jobs now and travelling well. That nonsense that was printed in the Australian last Friday, shows you which way it is all heading, "Instant F/O??!!" madness.

bushy

10th Jan 2009, 06:58

Many flying schools have been promoting the "instant airline pilot" and ICUS for decades, and this is just not realistsic.
But they sucked a lot of people in and overpopulated the unemployed pilot numbers, destroying T&C's in GA..

David Brent

10th Jan 2009, 09:10

Cadetship=Nepotism for QF Captains

If Aus is really that short of pilots hen maybe they'd really need an untrained 18 year old gen y son of a QF Captain operating their aircraft.

A Comfy Chair

10th Jan 2009, 09:25

David Brent.

That old chestnut. Ever asked how many of the cadets from the last few years are sons of Qantas captains?

I'd suggest the answer might well surprise you.

Keg

10th Jan 2009, 10:11

The nepotism charge is only ever made by those who are too lazy to form a coherent argument against the cadetship. Many of those that resort to the nepotism charge do so because to admit otherwise may be force them to look in the mirror. They often don't like what they see. 1990-1991, less than 10% were 'sons (or daughters) of'. :rolleyes:

teresa green

10th Jan 2009, 10:52

Who gives a ratz what their father does for a living, this father sent his kids to the bush, if they want to fly, then then they will learn from bottom up. You pray they don't kill themselves, and I have to admit it was a worrying time especially when they had single engine jobs over water, and I could have paid to have a nice cozy cadetship (especially my daughter) but no they went bush, and loved it. I have no regrets, they have no regrets, and they look back and say it was the best flying they ever did, and the old man was not as stupid and mean as previously thought.

cleared

10th Jan 2009, 12:01

Dont quite understand why every thread always ends up as a Qantas Cadet bashing!

Muff Hunter why so angry? What did a cadet ever do to you to think of them like that? :=

It's funny how there is alot of cadet bashing but very little cadets firing back at you guys.

I know many of the current cadets and for the most they are not straight out of school and are very nice capable people who do NOT have Qantas Captain fathers. The cadetship may have been different in the past, but it is no longer as everyone makes it out to be, so quit the slagging.

Yes there are some arrogant people in there (like there is in any industry including GA and military) but for the most they have done the hard yards and continue to work as hard as possible to maintain their spot in the cadetship. Like mentioned earlier by others many of the cadets have taken pay cuts to be in the class, refinanced homes and are still trying to come up with the money to complete the course.

As far as big changes go, the CIPP is NOT guaranteed for the current cadets (and hasn't been for a while) and they went in knowing that. As far as most thinking that they go straight into mainline, they are mistaken, yes on occasion this occurs but vary rarely, the majority will complete an industry placement (this can include being an instructor/flying charter and if lucky RPT) for a min of 2years, not directly into the left seat of an A380.

It appears that some think that cadetships are just handed out and that the cadets dont work hard to get accepted and maintain a high standard throughout the entire course and if offered CIPP. Wrong they work hard just as private students work hard to get their licenses and exams done. only difference is that a cadet is constantly under scrutiny to perform at the highest of standards.

Thankyou to the people who understand that it does not make a difference what background you came from :ok:, just because they were a cadet does not mean that they are 'snotty', 'rich', or as some may think ill-qualified. They will work just as hard as GA guys when it come times to employment.

Why have a cadetship when there are so many qualified GA pilots for DE? well it doesn't do any harm does it? Oh sorry some think that it is taking away the GA guys position. Why do you deserve it more than a cadet? You both deserve it as much as each other. You both worked hard for it.

PPRuNeUser0161

10th Jan 2009, 12:39

Chaps
I dont get it, whats the diff if you pay for your cadetship or you pay for your endo?

Dont kill me here this is not my sector of the industry but I am thinking of going RPT Jet.

Seems like you pay no matter.

I have 6300TT
1700 Night Command
5000+ Multi
4000+Multi TP Command

I dont have to justify my place in the industry, I just don't want to be made to feel guilty if I pay for an endo when cadets are paying out that sort of cash.

SN

mcgrath50

10th Jan 2009, 19:10

Soup Nazi,

It only makes a difference to those few bitter people who are the loudest here :ugh:

KRUSTY 34

10th Jan 2009, 19:33

From what I can see, a Cadetship (for the candidate) is a means by which he/she can embark on an "airline" career without the uncertainty, and risk, (both financial & personal) than the more traditional "up through the ranks" path. It seems now however that those lines have been blurred.

Welcome to the world of airline management! They've killed off the better part of G/A with their inexorable attacks on wages and conditions, now they are driving the last of the nails into the coffin of the few remaining youngsters willing to take them at their word!

Good luck finding enough drivers in the future :ok:

SkyScanner

10th Jan 2009, 21:00

If a S/O has not beaten himself/herself around the bush for a few years scaring the Cr$p out of themselves on a least one occasion, then they are not much use to a airline

So what about all of those that have come from the airforce or used their time in G/A instructing for a few years? Absolute dribble:cool:

rmcdonal

10th Jan 2009, 22:36

Quote:
If a S/O has not beaten himself/herself around the bush for a few years scaring the Cr$p out of themselves on a least one occasion, then they are not much use to a airline

So what about all of those that have come from the airforce or used their time in G/A instructing for a few years? Absolute dribble

I imagine that both Airforce and Instructors have just as many hairs on their chest as a charter pilot out bush. :}

Qanchor

10th Jan 2009, 23:00

Cleared:
"Dont quite understand why every thread always ends up as a Qantas Cadet bashing!"

I've said it before & I'll say it again,
"It's not the new generation cadets that give cadets a bad name"

Sydneyite

10th Jan 2009, 23:05

I agree with the changes they have made and knowing some of the people in play, most have accepted the changes and will continue on with their applications. I think QF will still 'oversee' all aspects of the cadet program (including CIPP) and having pipelines into Instructing and other areas (rather than just QFLink) will assist with their experience based longterm.

QF apparently does not make any money out of the cadet program (was clearly stated at this years road show). The money is all attributed to the uni/school. Some of you are also forgetting that the cost also involves an Associate Degree, expensive Multi Crew simulator course, and the Gas turbine rating - hence the $115K (or more).

If people interested in Aviation chose to undertake this option, with QF supporting them through, then why should we stop them - why shouldn't they have the choice. Let them be old enough and ugly enough to make that decision for themselves !!

And for them completing testing at the end of CIPP - bring it on. It goes to show that the new CP must be diligent enough to ensure that the standards of all Cadets, post CIPP, are up to scratch !

brown_hornet

11th Jan 2009, 06:55

Absolute dribble alright. I've said it before and i'll say it again too. I'm not a betting man but I would be pretty confident in saying that if those who are so anti-cadet were offered a slot on the program back when they were first starting their career they would have an entirely different view. I got a cadetship (and yes, after working in GA and outside aviation) and have moved 3 times as part of of my CIPP. I know more than one mate who missed out on the same cadet program, instructed in their home city and got a QF gig direct entry well before my 2 years were up. Am I bitter at them for the path that they took? Hell no. I may not have done THY that everyone seems to think that every airline pilot should, but it too hasn't been a golden goose handed on a silver platter. Wake up and smell the roses:ugh:

Transition Layer

11th Jan 2009, 07:34

So Brown Hornet? Who's going to be higher on the seniority list, you or him? :hmm:

That's my only beef with the current arrangement, hopefully the changes will go some way to addressing that.

SkyScanner

11th Jan 2009, 08:24

Should be person who started in Mainline first!

brown_hornet

11th Jan 2009, 08:48

TL, nice rhetorical question. I'm not even going to touch that one other than to say how can that be used as an incentive for the blatantly obvious dislike of cadets shown by a heap of people....Maybe the program / management but not the individuals on it. Not all cadets agree with it either, to the disbelief of many I'm sure!

ruprecht

11th Jan 2009, 09:02

I guess that answers that question then.:)

ruprecht.

SeldomFixit

11th Jan 2009, 12:40

The Qantas cadet scheme has been primarily a Captain's son, Masonic handshake carte blanche entry scheme, since it's inception. "Other ranks " were accepted purely to give a veneer of acceptability.

Keg

11th Jan 2009, 20:07

Like I said, it's an argument used by those too lazy to come up with anything more substantial. :rolleyes:

Ironic that one's background (cadet or otherwise) barely rates a mention in QF. Lots of comment about whether particular individuals can actually do the job or not though. I don't think my name has appeared in the overhead hatch yet! :ok:

KRUSTY 34

11th Jan 2009, 20:57

Well said 2ndGen.

I think the point is not so much whether Cadets are a better product than their GA counterparts, or even which side of the fence has endured more hardship. This debate has been going on for as long as there have been Cadets, and I think it's safe to say the jury is still out. That in itself should sum it up.

The point is, are people being treated fairly? Are motivated and idealistic young people (most young candidates, not just Cadets), once again being shafted because of the shortsighted ineptitude of airline management.

H.R. Give me a break! These people (you all know who I mean) couldn't manage a chook raffle at the local!

Capt_SNAFU

11th Jan 2009, 22:17

I wonder how cadets rank, in terms of the average for sims and passing promotional training when compared to GA and the RAAF?

teresa green

11th Jan 2009, 22:48

SkyScanner, I left out RAAF pilots for obvious reasons, and GA instructors normally have had a few years of flying in the bush, or have certainly gained experience, flying freight, etc, I am talking about 18 yr olds, on, still wet behind the ears, never been away from home, but ready to fly the coop so to speak. There is nothing better then for these kids than to go to Kununurra or Darwin etc, certainly better than starting out in a Sim, as was stated in the Australian last friday, (after a few flying lessons) like instant coffee, instant First Officers! I don't give a ratz about your glass cockpits, and future technology, the bloody things are still aeroplanes, and still need AIRMANSHIP on the flight deck. And paddock bashing is still one of the best teachers. If QF are sending their cadets to the bush, then good on them, to be sent to New Guinea is probably the best training of all, but not all are so lucky as we were,early skills can never be learnt out of a manual, or on a Sim, and I hope to God it never comes to that, but it is certainly heading that way.:(

togaroo

11th Jan 2009, 23:57

If GA in Australia continues to decline, where do most people think well trained, qualified candidates will come from. In the UK, there is no GA to speak of, as it has been regulated out of existence, with the reason that there is no space for it and its cost is way too high. The self improver (school of hard knocks) in the UK is not an option anymore as this avenue has been squeezed so that flying schools are what is required.

The bulk of airlines in Europe take on low hour well trained pilots. Yes they dont have a bag of experience but this is chicken and egg stuff. If GA doesnt exist how do you get the experience?

Not everyone whom is a cadet is on a winner from the bank of mum and dad!!!
I know I wasnt and I tell you it was quite a stressful period of my life and for my family. For the cadet bashers, if you were offered the opportunity wouldnt you take it?

What is important that the product of any 'cadet' schemes is a well trained and mature individual that will fit into the operation and will soak up experience as it comes, be aware that they will cock things up and when they do, learn from the mistakes. It also means that guys in the left hand seat may have to share their experience readily as with modern aircraft reliable systems mean that non normal events occur less frequently than years ago. Lets face it we cant all be skyg*ds on day one ;)

Icarus53

12th Jan 2009, 00:03

Because I don't know where to start with some so-called "arguments" on this thread - a couple of definitions will put my point as concisely as possible:

Arrogance - "The way I did it is the best way."

Ignorance - "The way I did it is the only way."

Done. Next!

Tempo

12th Jan 2009, 00:22

Brown_hornet,

I don't have a problem with cadets. I do have a problem with the fact that these guys/gals get 2 years seniority in QF when doing their CIPP. Joining the company with seniority over direct entry pilots and therefore having seniority for bidding/promotion/leave etc is outrageous and makes an absolute joke out of the seniority list. Worst still, when you hear these guys bragging about it in the coffee room on day one....well....you can imagine what some of us think.

zube

12th Jan 2009, 04:17

You can't generalise about one background over another. They all contain a small percentage of people who should be doing something other than aviation for a living.

After many years in the left seat I can tell you some of the most noticeable battlers come from pilots who joined the airline later, eg mid thirties or later. You wonder where they have been previously and why it took them so long to surface in the right seat. And surface doing it badly.

Of airforce types I observe there are two groups: either sh*t hot operators or a few real battlers who would make better academics than pilots. Probably would be excellent lawyers or working a desk in CASA marking time until the retirement payout comes along.

Cadets, likewise. But mostly I see young pilots with skills and appreciation of whats going on around them that belies their young age. But then there are a few rich silver spoon types who are obviously in the wrong job. Daddy would have been better off paying for some other form of education for them.

Like any profession we are a wide and varied group of people.

brown_hornet

12th Jan 2009, 05:03

Tempo, as I say, myself and others I know don't necessarily agree with the seniority issue either. If some are dumb / arrogant enough to boast about it on day 1 in the coffee room well trust me, I would smartly exit the room too:O But that issue the cadet has no control over and is hardly basis for slagging off and believing cadets don't 'deserve' their place in QF as much as a GA driver as some people seem to conclude.

drshmoo

12th Jan 2009, 05:33

If they have changed the CIPP, I hope they (QANTAS) do the right thing and back date their seniority to when they passed year 4 maths at primary school. It would only be "fair".

Dear Brown Hornet
have moved 3 times as part of of my CIPP. I know more than one mate who missed out on the same cadet program, instructed in their home city and got a QF gig direct entry well before my 2 years were up. Am I bitter at them for the path that they took? Hell no. I may not have done THY that everyone seems to think that every airline pilot should, but it too hasn't been a golden goose handed on a silver platter. Wake up and smell the roses

You had to move 3 times - are you ok? If I were you, I wouldnt care If your mate got in direct entry before you. You will have no blank lines except for your first pattern. You will have have access to holidays before your mate and you will forever have bidding rights and the right to upgrade well before your direct entry mate all while never earning a cent for the Qantas Mainline. Im glad you can overlook the fact that he /she got in before you.

astroboy55

12th Jan 2009, 06:00

:rolleyes:

The seniority issue has been done to death....both here and on qrewroom. It sucks..but its over. Either we can accept it and move on, or continue to use it as a reason to bag cadets and the cadet program. QF is a bloody good gig, however you get there. Everyone passes the same set of tests, the same sim's, and (for the mostpart) the same endorsement/promotion courses. Isnt that enough??? Jebus, next we'll be bagging people based on their ethnic group or religion. Typical pilots...we're not happy unless we are bitching and moaning about something. Does the fact that someone else who YOU decide doesnt deserve to be more senior than you, or even be there at all, affect the enjoyment of your job?? If it does, then you may as well go and join the dole queue......it doesnt matter what profession you're in, there will always be someone who YOU think doesnt deserve what they've got. Either accept it and move on, or continue living with that giant chip on your shoulder.

brown_hornet

12th Jan 2009, 06:11

drshmoo, you are right and I agree it may not be the correct way of doing things. But i'll say it again, how is that my or any other cadet's doing? My post wasn't me attempting to convince the likes of you that woe is me and I've done THY. Unfortunately issues such as these leave a sour taste in some people's mouth to the extent that they won't even socialise and have a beer with someone whom they know is a cadet, and I'm not just talking about mainline but the regionals too. If that's how they want to deal with the company's way of doing things then so be it.

Tempo

12th Jan 2009, 07:28

brown_hornet,

I have not heard of any cadets who are pushing for LOA161 to be removed and have the seniority of the direct entry guys who have been shafted correctly adjusted. Why don't you start the cadet campaign and get some momentum towards having it reversed?

And what about the cadet doing the CIPP who decided to contribute to the Qrewroom discussion regarding LOA161. He was crying poor that the removal of LOA161 was 'unfair' because he was of the understanding that he would have 2 years worth of seniority once joining. Poor bloke, having to fly a turbine RPT as a first job and then getting shafted by having to start at the bottom once in mainline. He certainly didn't get a lot of sympathy.....oh thats right...one senior captain in QF was backing his case. Turns out this senior captain has a daughter in the CIPP.

brown_hornet

12th Jan 2009, 08:42

Tempo be a bit realistic here. I may not entirely agree with it but for me to start a 'cadet campaign' to have it removed, well let's just say I've got more chance of my rocking horse taking a crap than getting the numbers together for that. As for the Qrewroom post that obviously pushed a few people's buttons, perhaps he agrees with the LOA and thinks he's entitled to his 2 years seniority. I guess it comes back to fact that everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

Snail Dave

12th Jan 2009, 09:35

Astroboy55

If only more thought like you and were grateful for what they had, rather than what they didn't have, or not getting. Everyone complaining about what they're not getting, how much of a ******** the CEO is, how much he gets paid (all the while, not volunteering for the position themselves), complaining about anyone and everyone above them or in management. I have cut someone who I thought was a pretty decent guy adrift as a mate because he's just turned into this ever-complaining, arrogant, whinging pilot. Can't even get an intelligent conversation out of him anymore. Seems it's not confined to just pilots though; a quick review of posts in the Cabin Crew forums shows similar traits. A similar story in parts of ATC as well. Maybe its aviation in general. Sad really - I bloody well love the industry.

drshmoo

12th Jan 2009, 09:40

Dear Cadets

I will drink with anyone. I like all people no matter their background pre QF. We all have lotz to offer. So lets all be merry, hug it out and ****.

I do however LOATHE LOA161.

NOTE TO CADETS - THIS DOESNT MEAN THAT WE HATE YOU JUST THAT WE HATE THE INTERPRETATION OF THE RULE OF LOA161

So lets separate the issue

Hating LOA 161 doesn't = hating cadets

redleader78

12th Jan 2009, 09:58

Maybe I am stupid. However a few things strike me about reading through this thread about the tension caused by the issue of seniority list just has me in disbelief.

Whilst i have nothing to do with qantas their cadetship issue/mainline direct entry pilots.

As an outsider who is just observing and have an independent view due not to having a vested interest in either way of determining seniority. It seems that the issue of seniority is about rewarding a sense of loyalty to the company. With loyalty comes with the added benefits. Everybody likes the added benefits. Is this the idea of seniority?

So to me the argument is about does a direct entry pilot exhibit greater, lessor or the same loyalty to the company than a cadet?

Scenario 1. Cadet into the trainee ship and De pilot employed to mainline at the same time. Cadet doesn't get any of the benefits until secures a job into mainline if i can understand the process correctly. De pilot has a job is being employed recieves benefits over the cadet. Rightly so as the de pilot is producing some form of productivity. 2 years down the track cadet gets job in mainline recieves same seniority as de pilot. De pilot feels ripped off due to 2 years of being productive where as cadet "seemingly" walks in gets same seniority as themselves. However company seemingly takes the view hey cadet you have been faithful to us in sticking with shelling out money, not earning much, being under scrutiny to meet established training pricipals and you still want to come to work with us. For your loyalty and devotion to sticking with it we will treat you as joining our company from the day you started your cadetship. hmmmm a company rewarding loyalty for a person. I wonder whether we should be applaudind such a thing?

The DE pilot feels ripped of as has probably had to jump through all sorts of hoops to obtain the experience endorsements to get there. However how many of thoose de pilots have exhibted real job loyalty to the companys they have worked for in the process. Hypothetically many De pilots have probably had small firms pay for endorsements in new types and then 6 months later moved on to bigger and better things so they can get to their goal of getting to said comnpanys mainline. Does this really speak of a persons loyalty ? SO qantas makes a bold psycholgic assesment of the canditure and suggest maybe not. The thing about generalisations are they are false ;) So they say hmm de pilot let you prove to us your loyalty as we know almost nothing of you so seniority comes from the day you enter the company.

The DE pilot gets upset because they are feeling like they a being type cast, because they felt they had to do it the "hard way". The comments about buying your way into a cadetship highlight this premise. You might like to explore the thought process that makes people feeling like it is the hard way but some of the best learning they did. Some might have learnt how to play the political game and how to screw the system up for people that follow them jump over the top of everybody and put down others to strive to get to the top. Some might have learnt that to get where they have got to they had to do that, but didn't like it and it was hard to cross some of the morals and ethics that were questioned. That is an individuals discovery process. Some may resent that process some may not. But learning things is genrally can be hard at first to come to terms with. (hard is a relative measure, what is hard for some is easy for others come back to einstiens relativity all back to the point of observation and can also have degrees. the degrees of freedom)

But maybe i have missed some of the points. I just feel that no matter what process you went to get into your position well done. Enjoy what entitlements that you have under the current award and de pilots stop being so selfish and thinking that what you have done makes you any more special than cadets. Yes you may have more experience, skills, but if you maybe view that seniority could be about loyalty and realise that you might get the chips of your shoulders thinking that experience counts for everything. Because i know i sure would like to be in a company that promotes a culture of loyalty. note: qantas does not always seem to promote loyalty it seems. or the feeling of feeling valued

so bring on the flames. If the issues are about the lack of humility that cadets show in a willingness to learn. thats a different issue in a lot of ways. but that is an issue that goes back to young buck old buck scenarios. So old bucks just have that knowing smile that comes from having that wisdom that has come with the wealth of years.

drshmoo

12th Jan 2009, 10:44

Dear redleader78

Thank you for the psychological assement for DE, QF and cadets.
Its got nothing to do whether you were a rockstar, a swinger, RAAF, GA or a cadet. This is all you need to understand. The day you start at QF as an EMPLOYEE is when you should get your seniority. So for eg

I start flying in march and Mr cadet starts flying in February of the same year. He/she is entitled to have seniority over me because he/she has been working for QF longer than me.

I may have more experience (good and bad) but they are entitled with no gripes from me to have seniority over me. I dont care who paid for what/trained where/RAAF/GA/NASA (insert heart breaking story here etc), seniority starts when you start as an employee. Doesnt matter what you did before.

LOA161 gives seniority to people who aren't employees. I have been to AIRC and there are precedents in other feilds that suggest this practice isn't correct.

So this is not a hard yards vs silver spoon. Not a DE vs GA, this is just a fair request that seniority numbers should start when you are an employeeof the company. Cadets and other should realise that cadet bashing is a separate issue

drshmoo

12th Jan 2009, 10:46

Furthermore I as most DE guys who actually understand the whole story have no gripe with the original people who were on the LOA. The continuance of this is the farce I speak about

cloudsurfng

12th Jan 2009, 11:12

shmoo, mate, you're banging your head against a brick wall. Fair or not, its done. Maybe it will change in the next EBA, maybe it wont. Im sure you'll be an advocate of change. As will I. My point is, from the guys and gals who were named on the list, up until those cadets who start until the the new EBA commences, all will have, and will keep, the seniority from LOA161.
Some of these guys have slots coming up, some are already FO's....its not gonna change. Perhaps our efforts could be better spent focussing on making sure us as SO's dont get screwed again in some other way in the next EBA.

flyhigh744

12th Jan 2009, 11:21

I can see from a DE perspective that LOA161 is seemingly unfair but there have been people who use this to bad-mouth cadets. As a cadet who graduated a few years ago, I was given a reserved seniority number upon graduation but I don't think this is a fair way of discriminating against us because of this.

From recent posts, I see that we have come to more or less a conclusion that it LOA161 =/ hating cadets but at the end of the day, I don't feel we are obliged to go to management and give up our seniority because of a misinterpretation which I certainly never created.

But even if LOA161 was abolished, are you DE pilots would still not hold a grudge against cadets?

I've certainly enjoyed the experience that the cadetship has offered me. I was very young, especially for a cadet's standard I suppose when I was given the opportunity of a lifetime. I've wanted to be a pilot since seeing the first aircraft that flew across the sky and I dont feel as if that passion for aviation should be held against me all because I came through to the airlines via the cadetship.

I enjoy socialising with pilots because we all have our different stories and experiences. It is amazing to hear what DE pilots have done whilst out at bush and I know that I certainly have a slight twinge of regret for perhaps not coming p this route but because of the offer, I was given another pathway which I opted to take.

I've worked as hard, perhaps in a different sense to those who have gone bush. I wasn't born wth a silver spoon in my mouth and it was me who decided to teach kids at Sydney Aquatic for two years, saving every little penny to get to a point where my single mother was happy to fork out the rest.

I think I've had my little say in this now :}

Mstr Caution

12th Jan 2009, 11:46

Employ cadets straight out of training & on day one lottery send them to Qantaslink under a secondment for two years.

Still employed by QF, still working in the QF group.

End result, it's still their trainset.

A Comfy Chair

12th Jan 2009, 11:58

This is directed to all those who are current cadets, or all budding pilots wanting that Qantas career. Please don't get discouraged from the "cadet bashing" that goes on around here, and let it affect your chosen career path.

As a Cadet (albeit one before the CIPP), I've found no-one so far in the airline who has "hated" me. They might be around, but I've never had any issues. Why? Because people take you on face value. If you are an aviator who meets the standard, and you're a reasonably amiable sort of person, then your background is largely irrelivant.

Fortunately, inside QF, whilst there is a lot of argument (and anger) about the LOA (which I understand) , crews are intelligent enough to realise that it is a Company/Union issue, and that the Cadets are the last people to have any influence over it. They play the ball (the LOA) not the man.

There is a lot of anger towards the individuals around the place, but its all coming from OUTSIDE QF. Some of these people think that they have been in the queue longer and done the hard yards so have some inherant right to a job in the airline. Ironically, many of these same people don't realise that it is this sort of attitude that holds them back from their airline job. If there is one thing that airline recruiters don't like, its an inability to accept people of other backgrounds and experiences, especially in this day when CRM is king.

Don't get caught up with the LOA argument, its an internal Qantas issue to do with reserved seniority that whilst is important to those affected, isn't something to worry about for someone new joining the company now. There might be a few reserved seniority numbers above you... this could be for any reason the company and the union agree to. When you join, take your position, and take your career as it comes.

There are merits to each of the cadet programs, military and GA flying paths, and which one is best for you is really a matter of "Horses for Courses". Go to the information sessions, and talk to friends. Talk to anyone you know in the industry. Most of all, make the decision for your future for YOU, not from the anonymous experts around here who say you're a far better pilot if you've done the hard yards. I agree that experience counts for a lot in this game, but what is more important is how you study, prepare, and most importantly learn from your actions. Do this through any of the paths, and you'll be a safe and successful pilot.

Good Luck in whatever career paths you choose!

A.C.C.

redleader78

12th Jan 2009, 12:45

nah not psychological assessment more just expressing my musings as i try to come to terms with the issues. To look at the issue in another light.

So to try and simplify it down for me does it all comes down when a person actually starts employed into a flying role, that they should have seniority?

Employment by definition is an activity that one devotes time. It does not necessarily have to be for remuneration that a lot of people assume that you have to fulfill being employed. Honorary ambulance officers come to mind. Now think about the cadets. I would assume the selection that qantas applies for the cadet ship is pretty rigorous. I would also assume that the cadets would most likely be subject to some sort of code of conduct that qantas operates under, with an appropiate discplinary procedure for not fulfilling the expectation. The cadet also devotes a fair amount of their time to the activity fulfilling thoose requirements that qantas demands. So i don't think it is that much of a stretch to understand a nexus could be established that the cadets are representing qantas and there is a form of employment happening.

Instead of trying to destroy the working conditions of one of your fellow employees and people that de people feel they are being discriminated against because they are not currently being remunerated in a flying role on mainline. Maybe focus on as a collective and be arguing about better pay conditions etc. before trying to because the De group is i assume bigger numerically commit acts of bullying because the award has a clause in it that de group don't like as it seemingly disadvantages this group. Pilots are competive bunch, and don't like when another group seemingly gets a percieved advantage.

ideally as mstr caution stated would be great but, i imagine the cost of that could be high.

newsensation

12th Jan 2009, 19:08

Mstr Caution

Qantaslink is part of the Qantas group, but separate companies, anyone who starts with qantaslink is employed by either sunstate airlines or eastern airlines and gets a seniority number with that company. There is no arrangements in place to transfer from any Qantas group company to Qantas.
Cadets who are employed by qantaslink effectively have two seniority numbers one of which is for a company who has not employed them yet.

Dragun

12th Jan 2009, 21:28

MstrCaution

So with that logic should all guys who currently work in the Qantas group and hold a letter of intent for direct entry also have a reserved seniority number from oh, let's say the date their letter was issued?

:ugh:

Mstr Caution

12th Jan 2009, 22:29

New Sensation,

I understand the current state of play.

There are current arrangements in place (Qantas / Jetstar MOU) to "transfer" ** from mainline to J* or vv with a "preserved" seniority number in the reipient airline. Some have chosen to "transfer" to J* but, to date I dont recall any have "transferred" J* to Mainline.

My post was to merely state that with a handhake, agreement, stroke of a pen conditions may change. A few years ago, CIPP never existed, nor cadet placement in QFlink.

In my opinion, whether it's an MOU, hotspot, cadetship, secondment or special arrangement or whatever. We're all part of a larger QF group & that should be expressed as a group seniority list with opportunities for all. But since I have no ambition to be CP, it's their trainset & they will continue to run it however way they chose.

MC

** "Transfer" meaning apply & be accepted**

Mstr Caution

12th Jan 2009, 22:36

Dragun,

Even better.

If it was my trainset, anyone employed within QFlink would have a preserved seniority number for the purpose of career progression to mainline from the date they commenced employment in QFlink or some other nominal date, ie: a date at which an agreement is reached.

Of course there would be those who hold enough seniority within QFlink to get say a 737 or 767 command. But there would still need to be minimum time on type/rank in mainline prior to promotion, hence no direct entry commands. The problem is, this matter should have been resolved 15 years ago, but it wasn't.

This would be rewarding those who are contributing to the profit of the QF group whilst employed in susidiary companies. And two, cap the loss of pilots to other airlines due to no structured career path to mainline. And three engage the workforce.

But it aint my trainset.

MC

Dragun

13th Jan 2009, 01:08

Yea it does seem blatantly obvious but I guess that's a whole other issue.

Cheers

Hawksley

14th Jan 2009, 23:41

i still cant see the point of doing, or attempting to do this cadetship? Especially now? can anyone explain the benefits?

cheers

ROH111

15th Jan 2009, 05:58

No benefits.

Get some real world, command decision making experience and then apply direct entry....

Ohhhh zzzzziiiiing!

coke drinker

15th Jan 2009, 11:38

I feel more stupid now that I have read this.

Cadets get pressured pretty hard, and when QF/Training Mob decide to make an example of someone (unfounded or not), they'll do what they can to make them look bad. I know of it happening at one point last year...

as for the Seniority, these are the hand-picked future core staff of Qantas. They go through rigorous training, selection, excessive pressure loading and more bs than you can imagine. For putting up with all the s&%^ they deserve the seniority number.

Go on with your tough GA s***. I work in GA; it is not going to get another generation of pilots. Why go and work for no money, with three supporting jobs and ****house conditions in the bush (away from all your family and friends) when you can do two or three year at uni, earn 5 times as much as most similar aged GA Pilots, and therefore have spare cash to spend on flying for fun? Seriously, why? If GEN Y do boycott the industry like I predict, who can blame them? This is where the cadet programmes come in. Sure they cost much more than your run of the mill flying school, and don't put out a pilot of any better quality (despite what they preach), but the way it was with the CIPP and seniority has the only aviation appeal to Gen Y. If this stays as it is, in 10 years the pilot shortage will be way worse than what it was a few months ago.

Icarus53

15th Jan 2009, 20:56

God I hope that's the wind up siren I'm hearing in the background!

Bo777

15th Jan 2009, 21:14

So whats the problem with gaining 500 hours PIC to apply to QF as a DE? What maybe 10-12months in GA.
Coke..... Mate some of us Gen Ys do have a work ethic and dont mind getting our hands dirty to gain invaluable experience and pay is increasing. For your information first year graduates leaving uni only earn round $40000, whereas a grade 3 instructor can be earning now up to $45000. The cadet seniority issue will always be contentious under the current plan. However to say cadets "deserve it" .....is absolute dribble. Example a cadet gets employed 01 JAN 09 and gets placed in industry placement flying for Qlink. A DE FO for Qlink after working in the qantas group for 5 years decides to make a change and starts 02 JAN 09 flying as an SO for mainline. After 2 years the cadet is taken into mainline. Who has the greater seniority the cadet whose been working for Qlink for 2 years or the DE SO whose being working for the qantas group for 7 years??????:ugh: Is this fair and whose more deserving????
For all those :{ing out there about the cadetship MAN UP and grow some balls and get some experience. Hopefully, in the future the cadetship program will be a more equitable system and provide for a more level playing field in regards to seniority. And if it doesnt I hope it will die a quick death.
Tsalta.....my thoughts exactly.:ok:

Bo777

15th Jan 2009, 22:16

Yeah goodonya.... no sh:mad: sherlock, thanks for stating the blinking obvious. By the way the EBA isnt dependent on the cadetship programs existence.

goodonyamate

15th Jan 2009, 22:40

I meant the seniority system is the one thats staying. Im sure in the next EBA, there will be no provision for cadet seniority.
Who said anything about the EBA being dependant on the cadetship :confused:
Geez Bobo....getting a little emotional arent we??

David Brent

18th Jan 2009, 13:15

The quicker this form of QF Captain nepotism gets shelved the safer for us all.

Who requires another arrogant muppet who will expect to be called Captain in 20 years in this industry. Haven't we got enough w***kers already.

Wasn't it another nepotism Cadet FO who nearly drove a 737 into the hills near Canberra a few years ago?

Mstr Caution

18th Jan 2009, 23:29

Chesley Sullenberger was a US Airforce pilot prior to joining the airlines.

I dont think Chesley needed some time in Australian GA to get some good aviation experience.

Bo777

19th Jan 2009, 05:16

Who cares if its in GA or Defence, experience is the optimum word.

*Lancer*

19th Jan 2009, 08:59

Actually, suitability is the optimum word, and there's more to that than just 'experience'.

Nunc

19th Jan 2009, 10:11

Experience just helps make you more suitable.

Bo777

19th Jan 2009, 10:19

Definitions:

Suitability:The quality of having the properties that are right for a specific purpose.

Experience:The accumulation of knowledge or skill that results from direct participation in events or activities.

Hmmmm, maybe both????????

That's it Nunc..................Suitably Experienced :E

KRUSTY 34

22nd Jan 2009, 01:35

Maybe I'm missing something here.

Where now is the advantage of aspireing to a Qantas cadetship? :rolleyes:

astroboy55

22nd Jan 2009, 02:04

gday krusty,

I guess at this stage its still the seniority...how that is changed under the new EBA (if we ever get one) is anyone's guess. The general consesus though, is that it will be abolished.

Cheers

bushy

22nd Jan 2009, 02:49

Why would operators employ cadets who they know are not going to stay long. It costs money to introduce a new pilot into the system, and operators need to plan for the long term. Temporary pilots are an added expense and degrade the operation. Experience levels are important.

MrWooby

22nd Jan 2009, 02:53

"The general consesus though, is that it will be abolished."

What Rot ! It may be the consensus amongst those SO's who have only been in the company a short time and want it all now ! But company wide there is strong support for seniority. Seniority will change a little to make it fairer but it will always be here.

MrWooby

22nd Jan 2009, 03:09

Sorry Astroboy, on re-reading your post I realised that you where only talking about cadet seniority and LOA 161.

astroboy55

22nd Jan 2009, 03:31

No probs mate

Cheers:ok:

Blue Carpet

22nd Jan 2009, 07:01

Anyone see the Full Back Page advertisement from Qantas about the Qantas Cadetship, in the back page of the Learning to Fly magazine currently selling at newsagents?

It reads,

The Qantas Cadet Pilot Program.

Our commitment to the future.

The Qantas Cadet Pilot Program is a unique opportunity to embark on the career of a lifetime. Successful applicants will be trained to become qualified commercial pilots by the airline whose pilots are respected worldwide. So prepare your career for take-off. For more information visit qantas.com It reads as if Qantas trains you. This is not the case, General Flying Service/Swinburne train you and you have to pay for it. Also the 09 commitment to the future has the ab initio program/commercial programs cancelled.

cleared

22nd Jan 2009, 11:22

I feel it is unfair that cadets cop so much heat.

How many of you can honestly say the cadetship was a terrible option when you started out? Did you not apply, or where you not accepted?

Bitterness towards cadets is clearly never going away, but I would like to quash a few common misconceptions.....

- There is only 1 cadet in the remaining group of 32 cadets who has a relative currently employed by Qantas. It is by no means a guaranteed position if you have family in the airline.
I know of a 747 captain's son who was not successful.

- Cadets do NOT get a free ride. After getting through Qantas' skills test, psychometric assessment, medical, reference checks and panel interview, then once accepted there are many hoops to jump through.
You are subject to harsh evaluations after every phase of testing, and without any guarantee of a job in Qantas, nor in CIPP, it is like walking a tightrope for the whole course.

If finally eligible for CIPP, you are likely to be waitlisted for that too. Then you may receive a phone call advising you that your industry placement is to fly in Darwin for a minimum of 2 years.

This is still subject to criticism from Qantas Pilot Recruitment and the industry partner also.

If the time is right, and you have been successful, you may be offered a position in Qantas. .... AGAIN, STILL NO GUARANTEE...

If none of this is comparable to 'doing the hard yards'. I don't know what is.

Cadet seniority is the one privilege that a cadet works for. That is the motivation to push them through a grueling course packed into the shortest possible timeframe.

Let them have one thing....

(NO, I am not a cadet, I am 'doing the hard yards' as such in GA, I have met many great cadets and believe that if you were given the opportunity why wouldn't you take it)

KRUSTY 34

22nd Jan 2009, 19:03

I've got a question for you cleared. What do the majority of Cadets do whilst waiting for the Call up? Do they sit around by the phone, do they occupy their time, and supplement their income (whatever that may be) by working at at Maccas', or do they go out and do the hard yards while they wait? It's a genuine question for you seem to have a handle on what these young people go through.

The reason I ask, is that if most choose to get out amongst it (as they should if they are remotely interested in the profession), then has the QF Cadetship merely become a vehicle in which a candidate can "Reserve" a spot in the group for a later date!

If that little perk is taken away, then what's the point!? :sad:

Muff Hunter

22nd Jan 2009, 19:17

cleared,

your a dreamer mate, it must be real hard waiting around for your job at qf....

walking the tightrope, don't you mean ticking boxes....

please, no more cadet hard luck stories.....your breaking my heart!

SixDemonBag

22nd Jan 2009, 20:42

"(NO, I am not a cadet, I am 'doing the hard yards' as such in GA, I have met many great cadets and believe that if you were given the opportunity why wouldn't you take it)"

...so did you fail then?

Bo777

22nd Jan 2009, 22:01

Cleared
Im hearing ya. You know when QF was asking the Australian public and aviation experts to help with the naming of the 20 dugongs my suggestion was.......The Unsung Cadets. What do you think???? :E

mcgrath50

22nd Jan 2009, 23:47

Krusty, (when I started this, it was directed at you, by the end it became directed not so much at you but the cadet bashers before you)

The cadetship is a very real option for me (as is RAAF and GA). At the moment I am learning to fly, almost at GFPT level, every cent of it my money that I have earnt. I plan to get my PPL before I start whatever it is I end up doing, still all out of money I have earnt since about 14 saving up.

If I get on the cadetship or go GA I will eventually get to a point where I run out of my money, and that my job I am doing at the time can't cover for, then I will have to get money of parents - who I will definitely pay back as it would seriously effect their ability to retire - and then student loans from banks.

It is one of my pet hates that occurs here and to an extent where I fly, they assume it's 'daddy' paying for his pride and joy to be a pilot. It's not. I am working my but off for something I love.

Oh and I have no aviation links in my family. So all of you who say the cadetship is for rich, captains son's (and daughters), get off your high horse all of you who say that that is what it's there for. Every route has a 'hard yards section', GA, RAAF, QF Cadetship. They are all different.

In my opinion the perfect flight deck at QF would be a Cadet, a RAAFie and a GA man, the three backgrounds of experience, if used properly and not ignored because each thinks they are better than the other, will create an exceptional environment.

My 2c

Bo777

23rd Jan 2009, 00:02

Shouldn't you be saving that 2 cents?????

patienceboy

23rd Jan 2009, 01:00

If finally eligible for CIPP, you are likely to be waitlisted for that too. Then you may receive a phone call advising you that your industry placement is to fly in Darwin for a minimum of 2 years.

Do you know how many hoops a GA pilot has had to jump through to get a turbine gig in Darwin, and how grateful they would be for that job?

They have probably been successful at a number of selection processes (first job, second job, first twin job, first turbine job, etc, etc.) and have had to keep their nose clean the whole time too. Many have been denied promotion due to the slightest error. No seniority here. The industry spits the weak out quickly.

It’s not just the flying experience that one gains in GA, but also the life experience of hitting the road with very few dollars and no knowledge of what the next job will be or where the next meal will come from. All the while, most know that they will probably NEVER get the chance to fly for Qantas; but they keep plugging away anyway.

I have nothing against the cadetship, but I think that some need to keep things in perspective and lose the attitude. The reality is that most will be flying a wide-body for six figures by their early twenties. Put your head down, keep your nose clean, respect those with more experience than you, learn as much as you can, and you will be fine. The apprentice cops the **** in any industry; we all went through it.

mcgrath50

23rd Jan 2009, 01:36

I have nothing against the cadetship, but I think that some need to keep things in perspective and lose the attitude. The reality is that most will be flying a wide-body for six figures by their early twenties. Put your head down, keep your nose clean, respect those with more experience than you, learn as much as you can, and you will be fine. The apprentice cops the **** in any industry; we all went through it.

QFT, great post :ok:

KRUSTY 34

23rd Jan 2009, 02:29

mcgrath50.

Not quite sure where you're coming from son. When you say "when I started this", does that refer to the thread (cause' Dragun started this one). When you say "it was directed at you" ie: me, Why?

I have a bit to say about Cadetships (read Cadetships, not Cadets persay). But to the best of my knowledge (and by all means feel free to quote otherwise), I do not recall commenting one way or another about the quality of the end product. If fact I have stated that Cadetships heve been around in one form or another for years. It is the Quality of the Cadetship (not just QF to be sure) that I have been quite vocal about. That's of course if that's what you mean. For as I said I'm still not quite sure where you are coming from?

As for spending every spare dollar (and 2 cents, nicely said Bo777), well, join the club. Most posters here could probably relate to a seemingly endless time of poverty, and missed opportunity. Without getting into a p!ssing contest, you are in good company. Except, borrowing money from my parents, when the level of uncertainty was high, never occured to me as an option!

I simply stacked a few more groceries, and dug some extra ditches!

mcgrath50

23rd Jan 2009, 02:47

Krusty,

I originally set out to answer your questions of 'What do the majority of Cadets do whilst waiting for the Call up? Do they sit around by the phone, do they occupy their time, and supplement their income (whatever that may be) by working at at Maccas', or do they go out and do the hard yards while they wait? '

But by the time I finished it became more of a soap box moment against the guys before you spouting the old 'Cadets = rich kids who get a job on a silver platter' BS and I just wanted to make sure you knew that wasn't directed at you.

KRUSTY 34

23rd Jan 2009, 02:57

Thanks mcgrath50, Glad we cleard that up, now back in my hole!:ooh:

But before I go, Go easy on the Cadets guys, If you're really honest with yourselves, most of us would have jumped at any opportunity to get into the game, and that includes Cadetships.

Sadly, as I keep harping on, these things are sometimes administered by people that would have trouble organising a chook raffle down at the local!

lazysundays

23rd Jan 2009, 07:05

'...the perfect flight deck at QF would be a Cadet, a RAAFie and a GA man...'
One to work the FMC, one who knows what to do if the ship is upside down, and one who can run it on the smell of an oily rag. Perfect! ;-)

coke drinker

23rd Jan 2009, 10:22

I know several of the cadets from one of the more recent courses who are waiting for CIPP. I know of a few who have gone and started an instructor rating, a few who are working. Not having spoken to these guys for a while, I'm not sure about the rest.

Sure some Cadets are rich, but there always seems to be a token western suburbs kid borrowing heavily, as well as some who have worked hard to finance the course themselves. I would say 75% of cadets are in serious debt, and at the costs charged by FTA/GFS it's significantly more than most GA Pilots! With no potential for income for those 6-24 months....

Don't give that hard work GA stuff. If you choose to work in an environment with very poor money, not knowing when your next meal is, that is your choice. Don't slag off on these men and women because they choose an alternative route. It could be said that "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and they (the cadets) took the one less travelled."

Bo777

24th Jan 2009, 09:14

Mig3
Its not 500hrs TT but 500hrs PIC not a big difference, but still a difference. Obviously you haven't gained that experience of 500hrs command or else you wouldn't haphazardly say that it's of little value. I personally learnt quite a bit in that "low time", i.e making command decisions especially in IMC, building character etc. During my time in GA I never came across any pilots that believed they "deserved a spot in QF", just alot who aspired to fly for QF one day. Maybe that's the difference between GA pilots and cadets....this attitude you speak of. A number of GA guys I know including myself are just thankful to have had an opportunity to fly and gain experience in GA but also on the flip slide are very very thankful to be out of GA and in an airline. In my experience a number of cadets have this attitude that QF owes them a spot, i.e I paid this x amount of $$$ so they have to give me a job. BS Remember QF owes nobody anything.

mcgrath50

24th Jan 2009, 12:02

Bo777,

Not all cadets believe QF owes them a job. I'd say most believe they have to work hard and maintain a standard to get given the job. Just like GA pilots and RAAFies

hotnhigh

25th Jan 2009, 00:50

Two things, pilot recruitment in any form, in the current climate, is dead. And you would have to have rocks in your head to spend the dollars quoted to gain the basic qualifications that the qantas cadetship costs.
Shop around kiddies. GA, its a beautiful thing.

Bo777

25th Jan 2009, 09:31

mcgrath,
Whatever mate.......obviously your talking from crewroom, flightdeck and pub chinwag experience.

Munt
What worlds that??? Are you sure its mother earth.

mcgrath50

25th Jan 2009, 09:40

'mcgrath,
Whatever mate.......obviously your talking from crewroom, flightdeck and pub chinwag experience.'

I thought your post before you edited it reflected your argument better.

I'm giving up.

I've been having you on this whole time. I think that if daddy pays QF enough money i should be given the left hand seat (that is custom built to fit me perfectly) flying any patterns I wish.

Yeah right...

Bo777

25th Jan 2009, 10:29

Hahahaha....... thats it you've hit the nail right on the head there champ. Wow such acuity from such a young lad.

goodonyamate

25th Jan 2009, 11:12

Bo......you can bitch and whinge all you want about cadets....the reality is, you'll probably be sitting either to the right or behind mcgrath one day. Deal with, accept it, and move on.:ugh:

Bo777

25th Jan 2009, 11:41

goodonya
hahahahaha...........i doubt it :}

Dutch oven
Qlink's not the only airline that operates out of brisvegas.
Dutch O commenting on my statement you said it yourself, didnt you??? I've bolded the important words:
good on ya flynavy28 :D. i recon you've made the right choice to pull out. disadvantages of being a cadet include being under the microscope for 3-4 years, paying between $47000 to $100000 for training and copping a bit of grief for being a 'cadet'. after all this, remember there is no guarantee of QF employment. and just incase you forget this, you are constantly reminded of the NO GUARANTEE. the things that made the cadetship attractive included having a turbo prop job supplied after training, NOT having to perform any direct entry assessments between CIPP and Qf emplyment and the prospect of seniority which has been in doubt lately.

if the 09 cadetship is structured as described above, i think the attractiveness of the cadetship just isn't there. it seems as though going bush on your own would be quicker, cheaper and easier. i think the qantas cadetship has been killed which is a shame.

mcgrath50

25th Jan 2009, 14:13

Hey Bo, don't you want to share a cockpit with me? :}

Bo777

25th Jan 2009, 22:05

hmmmmm........yeah why not?? :ok:

damo1089

26th Jan 2009, 12:41

I believe those of you stating that QF do not make money of the cadet program are slightly misguided.
QF outsources their cadet training to Swinburne and OAA.
For those not associated with QF, the same course costs $70,430
The Multi crew rating costs $8100 and the MECIR costs $16,630. Bringing us to a total of $95,160. Well below the costs of the QF cadet program.
I know the standard Swinburne course is the same as the QF cadet bachelor course because I know a QF cadet, and asked them.
Anyone that has been to Sydney for the QF cadet selection process can tell you that they make money off it, because I, correct me if I'm wrong, find it hard to believe that the cost price of completing an aptitude test is $200 per person.

biggles7374

26th Jan 2009, 21:55

Hi Damo

Re the training I would think that the cost difference between the QF / Non QF route is the cost of the ATPL Theory. Big Difference I know given you can get a first class course with Nathan Higgins for a fraction of that price. I truly believe that QF do not make anything it is the schools that believe that as they have been selected as a QF cadet training provider it gives them the priviledge to charge a premium for doing the course. Call it 're-branding' if you like - companies have been doing it for years - doesn't make it right!!

Re the QF selection costs, the $200 for the aptitude test is not profit, QF have to pay for the use of the SHL aptitude test and the COMPASS test on a per use basis, don't know the exact figures but something close to if not higher that $200 springs to mind.

By offsetting these costs it gives QF the opportunity to invite more people in for testing andgives more people the opportunity to impress, the rest is up to the individual applicants. A fair way to go about it i think.

Bo777

28th Jan 2009, 07:20

Dutch O its quite obvious that you have problems reading and deciphering the FACTS- so I'll try my best to keep it simple. :ok:

First of all I've never stated "that QF cadets deserve spots over anyone else" (I'll recant on it if I have). I stated that 'a number of cadets believe that they deserve a job after paying x amount of $$$ and completing the training' (Two totally different statements and misquotes on your behalf).

Secondly I've never insinuated that YOU have stated that "QF cadets deserve spots over anyone else". I used a quote from you that stated the things that made the cadetship attractive included having a turbo prop job supplied after training, NOT having to perform any direct entry assessments between CIPP and Qf emplyment and the prospect of seniority which has been in doubt lately. You were obviously talking about the pros of undertaking the cadetship of which I didnt misinterpret as I meant to use it to rebut your comment that I was making "bold statements" and to illustrate that, that is the belief of a majority of cadets i.e. pay the money + jump through all the hoops = presto airline job.......But that's not always the case as we, well some of us know.

Thirdly, once again stated by yourselfI used it as evidence to support my argument that this new cadetship is not attractive. So why isnt this 'NEW cadetship attractive'???? Correct me if Im wrong..... because 'no turbo prop job, no DE assessments between CIPP and QF employment'.

To reiterate my comment so that there are no ambiguities or mis-quotes In my experience a number of cadets have this attitude that QF owes them a spot, i.e I paid this x amount of $$$ so they have to give me a job. Yourself now on two occasions have stated that the 'cadetship under the old system was attractive'. So I dont know what your problem is??? Either edit/delete your statements or think before you hit the submit button.

By the way The facts i stated were sourced directly from the Qf website. If thats the case you should learn to quote your source instead of writing it if its yours:= (plagiarism)

mcgrath50

28th Jan 2009, 11:33

To take away from this petty tiff, I still think the cadetship is just as attractive if not more attractive than previously.

You get to choose where you go; that means if I want to go work for a Flying School, or a charter mob out bush I can, in fact this is a pro, I would have rather spent the two years at least getting a taste of these mythical hard yards you all talk about rather than sit in QFLink. At the very least I'd rather work for a mob that flys to more unique places, remote Australia, Pacific etc. I will be flying to major cities for the rest of my life with QF.

The way finding the work was explained to me when I queried QF, made it sound not like cadets were stuck on there own to find the work entirely. I interpreted it more as how year 10 work experience works. It's your responsibility to find the placement but your careers advisor (QF) will help if you get stuck.

The DE test I think is merely another hurdle that although annoying is probably fair. There is no sim test prior to this for Cadets, its possible a guy is a great GA pilot, great in the charter world but struggles when he hits the airlines. In theory if we say that the cadets are the cream of the crop (which again many of you seem to believe they think), it shouldn't be hard for them at all!

The QF cadetship is still a very real option (but not the only one) for me at the end of this year, still the major disadvantage is not any of the new changes but cost, as it had been since I first heard of the cadetship all those years ago.

coke drinker

28th Jan 2009, 12:09

McGrath, you're wrong though. Realistically what are you going to say in an interview? Hi, I'm a Qantas cadet trying to find my own Industry Placement. Qantas says I need to work for you for two years and I hope I get a job with you.

The employer is in a good position to say no! Why train up someone that you know is buggering off in two years or potentially even less?

cbradio

28th Jan 2009, 12:22

I would have rather spent the two years at least getting a taste of these mythical hard yards you all talk about rather than sit in QFLink.

the QFLink skipper is probably thinking the same thing!

It's your responsibility to find the placement but your careers advisor (QF) will help if you get stuck.

I've got a nice bridge for sale if you are interested. ;)

MrWooby

28th Jan 2009, 20:47

"the cream identified early", you've got to be joking, more like those who have access to the required cash in a 1 year time frame.

As for trained to the highest standard, also false. Trained to a good standard yes but not the best. The problem comes after the cadet is flying in the airline, there is very little training development given to them. If you look at the path of an airforce pilot, once on a operational squadron they fly many flt simulator flights, in addition there are many training sorties in the actual aircraft. For example on the P3 Orion, thee are pilot diversion trainers, 4 hours in the circuit quite regularly, tactical exercise training. Whereas take a Qantas cadet, after completing the 6 session conversion and 1 training trip he is then checked to line. Over the next few years he will not do an approach or landing for many years. For FO training you get 2 hours of circuit training in the aircraft then that's it. Every other training exercise is in the sim. And while a second officer, the cyclic training is an absolute joke. There is very little loft training, just trying to tick the CASA matrix box by doing approaches you will never fly ie 16 TWIN LOC MEL. The 280 series ramped training is a attempt at some form of development training but there is usually no time to do this complete the exercises.

Bo777

28th Jan 2009, 21:15

Iycant.....is that sour or mock "cream". A new theme song for the cadetship......"Cream" by Prince. What do you think??

goodonyamate

29th Jan 2009, 01:41

more like those who have access to the required cash in a 1 year time frame.

and those who get through the testing etc....

but sure, lets not let the facts get in the way of a good story.........
Wooby i completely agree with you about the training.....the Sim stuff and the 280 stuff is not really much use, just a good chance to have a bit of a fly aroud really. While there is still some benefit, i reckon i get more by doig a fbs and just mucking around...

Bo777...seriously, either you're going for some kind of a windup, or you really believe what you say. Either way, your ignorance astounds me.....
you clearly have no idea about cadets or the program in general. Sure, there may be a few that think the world owes them everything. Just the same as there are a few GA guys who think the world owes them everything. They are not traits of which background they are from, rather its is them as individuals.
At the end of the day, everyone goes through the same hoops at QF regardless of the background.
I noted with interest that on another thread you were quite anxious about QF recruiting. If you got in, good on you, if you didnt, better luck next time. But seriously, if, in the interview stage, QF had said, we have cadets, they have seniority blah blah blah...would you have turned down the job or withdrawn your application?? Doubt it. So if you are in, you accepted the position for what it was, and all the great stuff and the very small amount of bad stuff that comes with it. Deal with it, get the chip off your shoulder, and move on. Or keep bagging out cadets. Bet you dont have the guts to do it to their faces though...:p