Dick Smith and OZ ATC

[C-change]

I have noticed on several threads now that Dick Smith gets hammered on most points he raises and one common thing that keeps comming up is a suggestion that Dick should go and visit an ATC centre, either Melb or Bris. so he can learn how the system actually works and understand what people are trying to tell him in regards to ATC etc.

I myself has even suggested that he should visit a centre on a previous thread a while back. Now I don't always agree with Dick but I also like some of his ideas and suggestions from time to time and when I suggested that a visit was in order, Dick replied that he had indeed attempted to take up controllers offers to visit Melb centre.

I checked with some people to see if this was correct and it was but surprise, surprise, the request was blocked by management on each occassion.

So if there are any controllers out there that can try to open up a visit again, I think Dick would learn a lot about the current problems in ATC and become an ally for you all.

[Plazbot]

Don't blame anything Airservices Australia does on OZ ATC. Airservices Australia do not realise what they actually do.

[max1]

It would be great if Dick could see the amount of traffic that he wants ATC to monitor on approaches to aerodromes like YPMQ,YBNA,etc and the controller workload re LSALT,TRK monitoring,unidentified returns,etc.

[Jabawocky]

I had this very discussion with EnRooter one night........ yes we had both had one red too many....but I digress, and he even suggested he would do it on his time off, plug in and watch others doing the job and be able to spend time explaining what was actually happening, and followed up with a session with him at work and Dick to just observe and understand after a brief tutorial prior.

It would make for a much better informed weapon against the system. We all know he gets attention, so its best to have a well informed advocate.

Problem is that ASA may not be so co-operative! :ugh:

I am sure EnRooter will clarify this more specifically some time soon!

J:ok:

[TrafficTraffic]

I saw the thread title and got all excited....


Thought it was going to be about the old days when Dick was our boss.

He used to come and visit us in Sydney and tell us "you've all done very well" and he used to park his Jetranger (DIK or DIB?) next to the centre and he would come and tell young TT stories about travelling the world.

And we had BBQ's out on the fire escape.

And Mr Whippy would bring Ice-Creams over to the tower.

And the CAAs F28 would turn inside the tower on final 07 on the go.

And we watched 'discovery' channel videos sometimes on doggos...

And we had 1964s to get paid.

and 225s if we didnt want to get paid..

Blue Strips , buff strips, pink strips (some old guys even had blue/buff strips)

Ansett 727s and 737-200s made noise and smoke (but very little money - or did those bastard kiwis steal it all - bastards!)

Those were exciting times........

I miss exciting times like those........



TT

:uhoh:

[ER_BN]

Okay, segue with song from LRB...:confused::confused:

Oh TT....

Such memories.....my eyes moistened for just a little while there....

For me the early eighties...ahh

Now back to reality.....

I wonder what the recently qualified ATCs will reminisce about 2008 in 25 years time....

Whoops forgot....us old buggers who've put in 25 tears (years) can only indulge such...

All the newbies will be gone in 5 years according to the GM ATC and I'm not sure 5 years is enough to dull the pain by then....that's assuming they can remember anything good enough to reminisce about.

A whole cultural change in the entire society of ATC...

[Dick Smith]

TrafficTraffic, yes, I remember the old days when I would call in to the Sydney Centre in my Jetranger. It was DIK if I remember rightly – that helicopter is now in the Powerhouse Museum.

You may also remember the Airways Awards of Excellence that I introduced. At the start a small number of controllers were against them, saying, “We are not McDonalds,” but after a while people in the industry and within the air traffic control fraternity became supporters. Each side voted on the other as to which was the most professional GA company, the most professional airline company, the most professional small tower, and the most professional major Centre. I remember how proud the guys at Bankstown Tower were when they deservedly won the award for that year!

Those were the old days.

I point out here that I would be delighted to sit at a console and learn as much as I can. Even though I was primarily responsible for the Thomson TAAATS system, I have never yet sat at a TAAATS console to learn what is going on.

You may remember at the time there was a huge push for Hughes system – which subsequently couldn’t deliver on the Canadian and Swiss systems, and then closed down their civilian ATC program.

I point out that a number of Australian air traffic controllers who have studied Class E believe that it would, in many cases, be a less time consuming airspace than Class G. This is all tied up with the fact that traffic information must be given to IFR aircraft in a wide area in Class G, and this is not necessary in Class E.

I ask you to look again at the following Voices of Reason comment in relation to Class E:

Class E Airspace and United States Practice

We have watched with incredulity at the dangerously naive statements being made on threads in the Australian PPRuNe sites, concerning the operation of Class E airspace. Class E airspace is NOT an unsafe categorization of airspace, and is in fact used safely and effectively in substantial portions of the globe.

EACH AND EVERY transport and passenger carrying aircraft operating in the United States is required to operate for some portion of their flight in designated Class E airspace – effectively between 18,000 feet and the upper limit of Class B, C or D airspace – or the surface for non controlled aerodromes. This equates to over 10,000 passenger-carrying flights per day, every day of the year. The Class E airspace within which they operate is in the so-called most dangerous phase of flight – climb or descent. Your national carrier is no exception.

There are in excess of 150,000 general aviation aircraft operating in the United States, to either the visual or instrument flight rules – many many thousands per day.

There are CONSTANT interactions between IFR passenger carrying aircraft and VFR aircraft on a daily basis – with no hint that this practice is unsafe.

There are countless examples where aircraft provided with routine terminal area instructions whilst still in Class E airspace are routinely provided sequencing descending turn instructions by controllers in one breath, and VFR traffic information in the other.

We agree that Class E airspace is mostly within radar cover in the United States – probably the greater part of 95%. In that airspace, air traffic controllers positively separate IFR flights from other IFR flights – and where they can, provide traffic information on VFR flights.

Radar coverage is NOT a prerequisite for Class E airspace, and in fact in several cases the Class E airspace linking certain aerodromes to upper airspace is not covered by radar. In that airspace, air traffic controllers positively separate IFR flights from other IFR flights – and as they cannot observe VFR, do not pass traffic unless they know by some other means. That positive IFR-to-IFR separation may, in many cases, be applied on a “one in at a time” basis. The airlines accept that mode of operation.

NOT ONE SINGLE AIRLINE in the United States is lobbying for a higher level of service in current Class E areas.

Our observation in relation to the Australian experience has been one of giving proper effect not just to training and education, but also to the cultural change requirements. Pilots need to understand that operating in Class E airspace IS FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT to the service that they have received in the past – but need to accept that this is a normal way of doing business.

Australian controllers need to STOP being negative, embrace the concept of Class E airspace and to be blunt, get on with it. Controllers in the United States provide services in Class E, without questioning its “safety”, day in and day out, and have done so [either as Class E, or its predecessor], for over 50 years.

NOT ONE SINGLE CONTROLLER in the United States is lobbying for a higher level of service in current Class E areas.

We are concerned that this constant questioning and second-guessing by your pilot and controller fraternity will in fact generate a safety deficiency larger that the problem you are trying to solve. By our estimation, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for the large amount of Class C airspace presently designated in Australia, and subject to the appropriate change management processes we have previously described, you should introduce Class E airspace wherever possible.

[En-Rooter]

G'day Jab :ok:

Hello Dick,

I've gone into the Centre on loads of my days off to show people around and if they let Dick into the Centre (they wont) I'd quite happily sit with him, he'd then see how ridiculous the radar coverage around AY and BLA is. I could show him what we could do if there was ADS-B coverage in the area.

One of the things I used to wonder with pilot visits to the centre was,

'why are they bringing them in at 10am and why are they only watching for an hour or so'

You need to sit there for a whole shift, you need to see it when it's busy. Coming in at ten and sitting in for an hour was useless, bit like an ATC on a famil flight (remember them?) sitting in the cabin of an aircraft for T/O and the Approach and then sitting in the jump seat during the cruise.

There's a very good reason why ASA wont let Dick into the Centre's, because ANY ATC that he sat with would tell him exactly what's going on in this dysphunctional organisation. He would then (quite rightly) elaborate on sunrise.

Dick, the time for airspace re-form is not now, the main game is exposing the corrupt mis-management that's taking place and has done for the last 3 or 4 years.

I'm not resistant to your ideas Dick, I'll quite happily trial new ideas.

If anybody wants to know about the games ASA are playing, ring the Launy Tower guys next time you're in town and ask them about the offer they made to management reference staffing (ensuring no disruption) when the FA's expired, then have a think about who's acting professionally ASA or the ATC's

Mark my words, one day the truth will come out as to what's occuring in this joint, they can't hide their lies and incompetence for ever. Personally I'm sick of banging my head against a brick wall. The only action that's available to me will occur around late January. (Sorry to whomever it may affect)

Seeyas

[Freewheel]

Dick,

What's the saturation of movements V controllers (in various types of airspace) in Australia V the US?


Did you catch the Fin Review article yesterday on the inequity of money raised via "user pays" vs actual cost to provide given service? ASA and CASA featured prominently.


Finally, if ASA hired you to report on their current systems, you'd get all the access you need. Perhaps you should put a proposal to them?


I'll get me coat.....

[Spodman]

You may remember at the time there was a huge push for Hughes system – which subsequently couldn’t deliver on the Canadian and Swiss systems, and then closed down their civilian ATC program.Erm, the way I remember it there were 2 contenders for the job, an agreed process to select which was the best which was abandoned mid-way with somebody, (Baldwin? Yourself?) saying '**** it, the septic is crap, buy the froggy,' or something like that. Don't recall being told enough about either system to make a selection myself, do recall the ultimate choice being justified, BUT NOT THE METHOD!...air traffic controllers who have studied Class E believe that it would, in many cases, be a less time consuming airspace than Class G.Why try and convice ATC, who are not really involved, and mostly don't care, as long as anybody doesn't try and convince anybody E is safer than G or C? Better go and visit OAR instead...

I note you breifly touch on the subject on hand then leap onto your soapbox to sell some more, erm, soap. I have seen transcripts of you doing the same on ATC radio, requesting an ATC service in un-controlled airspace & objecting to a transfer to a procedural tower. My radio dealings with you have always been civilised & professional, both ATC and CAGRO, but I did get a tongue-lashing in the briefing office many moons ago taking a SARTIME from you at Cambridge for daring to ask your approximate route...

My point is, can you be professional enough to stay off the soapbox while plugged in, to avoid distracting the controller? If so, you are welcome on my console.

[terronnd]

Oz ATC need all the help they can get, they are the second best controllers in the world after all.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Even though I was primarily responsible for the Thomson TAAATS system, I have never yet sat at a TAAATS console to learn what is going on.

That just about sums it up doesn't it......

[En-Rooter]

Oz ATC need all the help they can get, they are the second best controllers in the world after all.

Mate, you are sooooooooooo funny :D:ok::D

Mate, will you come to the next party I go to and tell that joke, cos it's THE funniest joke I've ever heard. And all my pilot friends LOVE IT :D:D:D

[En-Rooter]

C'mon Terron, pleeeeeeze tells who the best ATC's are????


C'mon, the suspense is killin' everybody, pleeeeeeze tell us who the best are? I know you're dying to give us the punchline???

Who's the best?????????????

[Howard Hughes]

Perhaps it's time for a truce between, Dick, the Controllers and Airservices. The first step could be to allow Dick in to see what really goes on, surely there is someone within Airservices management willing to let this happen!

[sierraoscar595]

oh dear. i don't think any of you have thought this through. providing dick smith access to an ATC centre would require MINISTERIAL approval. do you reall think the Government is going to let MR Smith anywhere near at ATC facility given the threat and claims he has made.

wake up people.

[En-Rooter]

oh dear. i don't think any of you have thought this through

I think you're missing the point, I don't think any ATC in Australia would have a problem with Dick sitting in with them.

ATC's have nothing to hide, ASA management (oxy-moron) however is a different story.

Pilots, Airline Management and Government seem to have their heads in the sand over the present situation.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

Seek the truth and you will be surprised. Ben Sandilands commentary is very close to the truth (:ok:), start there.

[En-Rooter]

Perhaps it's time for a truce between, Dick, the Controllers and Airservices

I think Dick would be surprised with controllers attitude towards him.

Dick will never get near a console in a centre whilst the present ASA management (oxy-moron) is there. They are far too gutless and will not stand up to the scrutiny that it would bring.

[Spodman]

...providing dick smith access to an ATC centre would require MINISTERIAL approval. Bollocks! I don't need ministerial approval for my Mum to come to visit.

I'm sure if he WAS asked it would be referred to a committee with a firm promise to report on the progress within a year or two.

[Dick N. Cider]

So - Dick Smith is... your mum Spoddy?

[makespeed250kt]

I've got a pair of Grouch Marx glasses somewhere!!!

They will never know....:E

[Dick Smith]

Makey, I'm game if you are- what say the Brissy Centre on Saturday arvo. Sure to be no security check on a weekend.